Wario's Match-Ups!

I hate the + - system btw. I love 5:5 6:4 etc

CURSE YOU SMASH GODS!!!!!1

I'll call it even. It's very drawn out. He does more damage while we kill earlier. It's frustrating and hard for the both of us.

what did y'all decide on for the marth match up? -1 or -2 ?

nova 9 said:

what did y'all decide on for the marth match up? -1 or -2 ?

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Reading the OP is very very hard.

Lord Chair said:

Reading the OP is very very hard.

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So is answering a simple question apparently. IIRC, it's -2, but it is stated in the OP like what ^ said.

keep feeding laziness pls, the guy is ******** enough as he is

TheReflexWonder said:

I'll call it even. It's very drawn out. He does more damage while we kill earlier. It's frustrating and hard for the both of us.

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TLink's damage output isn't that frustrating in comparison to someone like Falco.

Lord Chair said:

Reading the OP is very very hard.

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plz don't speak to me I really do not like you.

SoulPech said:

So is answering a simple question apparently. IIRC, it's -2, but it is stated in the OP like what ^ said.

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I'm sorry, I forgot about that but thanks for answering.

plus 1 in the 55:45 sense.

LOE1: +1
DMG: 0
archer.: +1
BPx: 0
Croi: 0
ShadowAzure: +1
SuperShyGuy: +1
Tesh: +1
xzx: 0
PMC66: +1
Iota: +1
TheReflexWonder: 0
Dynomite: +1

+1 means "small favour" and could be referred as 55:45. Anyway I don't feel like this MU is in Wario's favour but well well. I feel that we are done with Toon Link so let's move on to Wolf. I'll write about this MU later...

-2 with cg. 0 without.

^^^ That sums it up pretty well. The CG (again, poor Wolf mains all too familiar with their character getting CG'd) is basically the reason we win this MU. The MU otherwise is basically even: Wolf Bair all day, Wario float all day.

I would avoid BF and similar stages: Smashville FD etc is better for Wario. More room is fine for Wario since getting the CG takes off a lot of pressure for dealing damage and getting the kill, along with the additional benefit of Wolf having to work harder to kill Wario/no platforms to get in the way of reg approaching for Wario. IDK how Wolf mains feel stage wise, but I definitely don't wanna do that MU on BF lol.

Wolf really doesn't care a lot for stages in general. Against Wario I'd personally go SV or Lylat but I don't even try this match-up anymore. I think +2 Wario is acceptable though I think it could also be +3 is he gets the CG down perfectly, not sure.

Wolf/Wario
As with any MU involving a CG (or being CGed, grab released, etc), it's important to know it because CGs are a huge element in why MUs can suck. /needless to say.

Other then that, Wario has the same air speed and better air mobility than Wolf but Wolf has better reach, Bair and his transcendent blaster interrupts actions well. Wolf's heavy unlike the other space animals but Wario lives longer for sure.
A better Wolf should give the details. IMO Wolf plays keep away and Wario looks for openings/punishes. Brawl's so grab-based and Wario has the air game and tools like his bike recovery, bite and fart, so Wario has the advantage. While Wario jumps around a deadly storm is brewing in him from drinking Mountain Dew and that fart makes spacing Wario even harder. Fart is an annoying pressuring tool because it grows stronger adding risk to Wolf or most characters avoiding confrontation.
(edit I mean -2 Wolf, +2 Wario, not -2 for Wario lol) but get a more experienced Wolf's ratio.

I hate Wario, he can just float around and airdodge in and out all day.

I think if Wario didn't have like 90 billion recovery options it would be in wolfs favor without the CG, but since Wario can gimp wolf easyish, it's about even.

With the CG, I mean, come on, quit ****ing cheating guys. (+2)

Wolf's oos reflector can punish the heck out of Wario's who do not know how to CG properly.

I don't have a good amount of experience with Wolf but I think with the CG the matchup is +3 Wario and +1 Wario without CG since Wolf has a tough time gimping Wario but does not get dominated as hard as he would with CG.

SuperShyGuy said:

Wolf's oos reflector can punish the heck out of Wario's who do not know how to CG properly.

I don't have a good amount of experience with Wolf but I think with the CG the matchup is +3 Wario and +1 Wario without CG since Wolf has a tough time gimping Wario but does not get dominated as hard as he would with CG.

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Why would need to gimp ? How does that make any sense in making it +1 ? has a tough time getting through Bair wall and retreated Fairs. He has setups to grab unfortunately, but no can ever do it consistently to matter in my opinion.

IMO this MU is -2 for Wolf when Wario has perfect CG execution. -1 if it's like, let's say 80% there; 0 otherwise.

Wario doesn't like to die. I don't enjoy that part of this MU. Uhhh there are secrets about the dthrow CG. If you mess up (too slow), Wolf can punish with an usmash right away, which means anything less than 80% success with the CG is essentially going to even out %-wise. However, if you buffer it so that being slow results in a crouch instead of a delayed turnaround grab (Sky did this when we played), the usmash will miss if Wolf is mashing it and you'll get a free grab punish.

Wario gets walled out pretty badly by Wolf imo. Airspeed matches, aerials outrange, blaster limits horizontal aerial approaches, jumpshine beats out vertical aerial approaches, etc. However, once Wario gets in, he can keep a string going for quite some time to compensate. Did I mention that Wario doesn't die? As if he isn't annoying enough to hit as it is, really -_-

Why would I buffer the CG incorrectly/badly when I could do it right and get the CG for free?

The CG is not that hard. It's really not that hard: the timing is different based on weight with DK Bowser being the easiest but it's still not hard.

Messing up would basically be not buffering it, or doing it at incorrect %.

I agree with it being even if you can't really CG, but who's ****ing this up so much? I mean I don't want to believe I'm the only Wario that does this, but I see a lot of people **** it up or not do it out of principle that idk maybe I AM the only ****** lol

Malcolm usually doesn't do it, Hungr didn't like doing it, Bassem usually ****s it up by going too fast or something idk, Reflex doesn't do it iirc or doesn't use Wario in MU's that have it, Gluttony probably doesn't use it/MU's that feature it, etc

Idk, ask the Warios that keep messing it up Sky is the best at it from what I've experienced, although Micaelis was rusty when I played him. Reflex vs MCP sets seem to show that Reflex is around the 80% mark that I mentioned, but I also remember something about rust on that occasion too.

I agree that it isn't something that should be messed up with experience, but in practice I have yet to see a Wario hold on to the grab consistently, so... yeah. Just threw it in there that Wolf's best option is to mash usmash in case the CG gets dropped.

Yeah that makes sense. You can Dsmash too if they really flub it. Shine as a worse option but most room for getting out.

The "purposefully going slow" thing sounds REALLY janky though. I'd rather get the regrab guaranteed by frame data and poor physics LOL

Seagull Joe said:

Why would need to gimp ? How does that make any sense in making it +1 ? has a tough time getting through Bair wall and retreated Fairs. He has setups to grab unfortunately, but no can ever do it consistently to matter in my opinion.

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Now I would never justify Wario vs Wolf being +1 Wario without cg because of how fun the match-up is without cg and how I can see neither side has an advantage in the air; all the while a good Wolf would likely be tricky to grab (in this sense, it wouldn't be a +3 for us with cg), but Wolf's bair wall is nothing compared to Toon Link's bair wall or Marth's fair wall. In other words, there are plenty of situations where I wouldn't give a **** (and no Wario ever should in said situations) if Wolf sets this wall up.

That said, +2 Wario with cg, 0 without it. Wolf's mix-ups work rather well against us and he could keep us on our toes to some extent.

EDIT: I'm not sure how Wolf would gimp Wario unless Wario really screws up somehow. So THAT part I can agree with xD

It's worth noting that I did much better against MCPe after I leaned that platforms were bad against Wolf. It was only one set since then, but, I definitely feel better about the matchup in general.

Maybe this shows how much I am really lacking in Wolf experience. :S

TheReflexWonder said:

It's worth noting that I did much better against MCPe after I leaned that platforms were bad against Wolf. It was only one set since then, but, I definitely feel better about the matchup in general.

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I take it you agree with DMG on why platforms are bad? What are your thoughts on the MU after figuring out stages?

IMO, Wolf's best CP here is Lylat.

Lylat specifically offers Wario too much to be considered preferable over Yoshi's or Battlefield (both of which don't really give Wario any sort of advantage). Strong slants force certain movement on Wolf's part and give him less leeway with, say, spacing fairs and using blaster.

Platforms in general don't give Wario extra options and tend to give him a slightly more difficult time landing and a MUCH more difficult time actually going in. Especially in the epic quest of beating Wolf's fair, platforms kinda mess Wario up.

Fully retreated fairs are not counterable but give up a hell lot of stage control, the only reason you really have to fully retreat them is because if you don't you can actually get countered by super committed FH DJ dairs. Platforms disable that option for Wario and allow Wolf to space fairs without them being as much of a burden to his stage control. This alone matters a whole lot, especially considering that, to my knowledge, Wolf really doesn't get screwed by platforms at all.

NB: IMO

I think Lylat is fine over Yoshi's. I think BF is your best stage in that MU because the platforms there are more limiting than the Lylat platforms (for approaching, for running away Lylat is better imo). Approaching Wolf on BF is limited, where as Lylat it's "gonna take awhile" but the platforms are easier to actually get through and deal with.

Lylat is fine though because it can be hard to CG you on the slants. It's not a strong strat, but you can camp the slants and it usually limits us to 1-2 regrabs. On the main part of the stage, whenever it tilts I'm nearly positive it puts you far enough away to escape the CG. Those 2 aspects, along with a lot of room for Wolf to space and harder to get cornered, you can make a fair case for Lylat being gay lol.

Be careful though because Lylat's size works against Wolf if he falls behind and needs to kill Wario, because there's a LOT of room for maneuvering and while Wolf isn't slow by any means, it's still not that easy.

What are Wario's preferred stages? I'm guessing Frigate. How are Brin and RC for this MU? It seems to be weighed by the CG element a lot, which those stages hurt but Wario also generally destroys on them too. Wario's good recovery gives him the advantage on RC vs Wolf's limited recoveries. The equal air speed gives stage picking more depth for this MU.

What should each character:
strike for starters, 2 stages?
Ban?
CP? 2nd (or more) CP?

Brinstar is not great for the MU. It's not CP worthy for Wolf, but it's like a 5-6 on a scale of 1-10

RC is slightly better, but again the actual CG won't come into play much here. Stages that are open, plenty of reasonable CG space and opportunities, those stages Wario likes. Platformed or CG deterrent stages Wolf will like (but not so janky or different that he will struggle recovering or normally fighting).




If the starter list is

BF
FD
SV
Yoshi
PS1

I would instantly strike BF and then consider between Yoshi's or PS1 or Lylat if that was somehow added into the mix.

Wolf would definitely strike FD and likely SV. If not, depends on how comfortable he is with Yoshi PS1.

I'm banning BF as Wario 90% of the time unless you guys think you have an even better stage for Wolf, and Wolf should probably ban FD in all honesty. FD or SV, but at least SV gives you a platform to work with and recover with. RC Brinstar etc aren't that huge of a threat to begin with, and considering their questionable legality you prob won't see them much to begin with. This MU doesn't swing much based on the stage list, since there will be 2-3 stages out of starters and mild CP's that each character would prefer anyways.


For Frigate: it's a double edged sword. The first transformation WILL SUCK BALLS for Wolf. However, I am wary of the second part of the stage. Wario does not like the second part for 2 reasons:

1. The platform in the middle ALWAYS gets in the way. I don't care who you are playing, it feels like a pain dealing with it.

2. Because of the slants and height differences, approaching characters from and going towards the hole is somewhat awkward with Wario because he's not very good at covering options diagonally. It's also much harder controlling and dealing with changes in approaches that you have to make to be successful, like how high or low you are. I can't SH from the middle to the side fully, but DJing from the middle towards the side is a very limiting idea. On the same token, if I SH from the outside into the middle and I'm forced to airdodge or be defensive, it can take longer than I need to actually land, because it's like there's a hole in the ground.


Wario would CP Frigate a lot more often if the second part of the stage did not exist, and that's personally why I tend to avoid it because a lot of characters you would LOVE to take to the stage just do so much better on the second part vs Wario. Take Marth. Wario probably beats Marth on the first part despite the usual MU problems. The second part however gets bad for Wario. Shiek is another example, Diddy gets harder too, Snake, Lucario, Olimar, etc. The second part always seems to be their saving grace layout wise and it's annoying lol. I'd rather have a consistent edge with, say SV FD etc, than worry about the limiting aspect of the second part.

Wolf CP's would be BF, maybe Lylat, maybe Delfino (? I say this because a lot of the layouts are hard for Wario to do the actual CG, stage transforms, etc but disadvantages would also be present. The stage sounds great for dealing with the CG but I dunno how much u guys naturally like it. Experimental Idea). I dunno what else sounds good for you guys, just find starters you don't hate and hopefully they give you something for dealing with the CG.

ShadowAzure said:

Wolf's bair wall is nothing compared to Toon Link's bair wall or Marth's fair wall. In other words, there are plenty of situations where I wouldn't give a **** (and no Wario ever should in said situations) if Wolf sets this wall up.

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Wut. 's...Bair...Wall...

@DMG thanks, that makes sense.
What I see with Delfino is although Wolf has several spiking opportunities, Wario can live forEVER and could be a problem if he got a good lead.

Does Wolf have any grab release etc tricks on Wario?

Not if you don't press up, he grabs you too low. If you do, he's got the usual GR shenanigans, maybe usmash. Nothing ouch-my-anus bad, though.

One thing does have that is nice is his Dthrow offstage, which can then use to grab at the edge or punish him in general (This is at higher percents of course).

is meh. i need to learn the cg better, but otherwise its +2 wario(as i think we all have concluded).

its always nice to get the kill on wolf 1st, because every wolf i play really wants the kill and uses dsmash alot more than they should, which i punish easily.

i'd still always cp frigate if they dont ban it, even with the 2nd part. sometimes i just like to camp under the platform, where wolfs blaster wont hit you, so they have to approach. and thats only the 2nd form. dont be scared to cp it just because of it.

wolf offstage can be tough for him, since he doesnt have the best recovery in the world. wolf likes to blaster off the ledge too, which can be punished with a good read. i'd also say bitecide is a little easier in this mu if wolf is getting pressured or greedy. wario doesnt have much to worry about offstage, since wolf doesnt have many options when that happens.

but yea, likeeveryone said, +2 with cg, even without cg. his bair can get pretty darn annoying.

Seagull Joe said:

Wut. 's...Bair...Wall...

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It's probably the single strongest walling tool any character has against Wario in this entire game.

Then again, the discussion isn't about TL.

Lord Chair said:

It's probably the single strongest walling tool any character has against Wario in this entire game.

Then again, the discussion isn't about TL.

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-Dead-@What you said LOOOL.

Ishieymoro said:

IMO, Wolf's best neutral here is Lylat.

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Delfino.

DMG said:

Wolf CP's would be BF, maybe Lylat, maybe Delfino (? I say this because a lot of the layouts are hard for Wario to do the actual CG, stage transforms, etc but disadvantages would also be present. The stage sounds great for dealing with the CG but I dunno how much u guys naturally like it. Experimental Idea). I dunno what else sounds good for you guys, just find starters you don't hate and hopefully they give you something for dealing with the CG.

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All this is good.

Delfino is my personal best stage and wolf has so many gimmicks on this stage it's awesome.

The only thing is that like Rizen says, if Wario gets a gimp, he can timeout super hard because he can just run away the entire game.

Same thing for Wolf, though. This stage makes Wolfs runaway game better than Warios.

I like battlefield a lot too, but all Warios strike that stage vs Wolf. I wind up playing on YI a lot.

Seagull Joe said:

-Dead-@What you said LOOOL.

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Good thing you don't play Wario.

If you have nothing to contribute, refrain from posting in the first place.

I think much is covered up by now, so I won't write that much about this MU. This is a typical example of why CGs suck and shouldn't even have been in the game in the first place. However, Wolf has range and can compete with us in the air. His bair, fair and up-air are good tools against Wario. I think Wolf must avoid the bite at low % since it will mean a guaranteed grab for Wario. Wolf's strongest tool in this MU is to space well and avoid getting grabbed. I feel that Wolf doesn't need to approach Wario since Wario is the master punisher. If Wolf approaches, it will be easier for Wario to punish it with an OoS grab. Oh, and I think that if Wolf grabs Wario at the edge of the stage (Wario will be airborn), he can get a dair from it. Diddy Kong can do it, so I'm pretty sure Wolf can do it too. Anyway, both have great tools against each others, so this MU is "anyone's game", even (0).

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Oh right, the super lame CG! -_- But I feel that if Wario is fishing for the CG all the time, Wolf can punish Wario for that. That means Wario shouldn't be too predictable with it. And grabbing Wolf isn't THAT easy, but Wario can still do it for sure. I will set this MU as +1 for Wario, but don't take me wrong! Dx The CG really ***** Wolf hard, but if Wolf really can play safe and predict when a Wario is going for the grab, and is playing this MU right, I think it will be +1 for Wario.

EDIT: The CG is too freaking powerful, so I'll set this MU as +2 instead.

Seagull Joe: +2
DMG: +2
Gheb_01: +2
Rizen: +2
MegaRobMan: +2
SuperShyGuy: +3
Ishieymoro: +2
ShadowAzure: +2
LOE1: +2
xzx: +2

The CG goes to 200, right? Any janky percent it starts at, or can we start it at zero?

E: Just to clinch it I guess I'll go with the flow and vote +2.