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Putting the D-Smash confusion to rest...

FadedImage

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This is originally posted by me over at AllisBrawl, found here: http://www.allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=9194

The Paralyzer
So I know all of you are in love with your dsmash paralyzer guns because they are so **** sexy, but let's test your knowledge!

Did you know:

  • It is impossible to re-stun someone if their feet have not touched the ground (this includes anything that replenishes your second jump, i.e. water, edges, etc.) since the previous stun. (Both the D-Smash and the Neutral-B share this same cooldown.)
  • That when you connect with a Neutral-B while your opponent is on the ground, their cooldown will be reset when one of two things happens: the animation for leaving the stun completes and they return to a neutral stance, OR, they perform an action (shield, jump, crouch, etc.) to interrupt that animation.
  • That the D-Smash is capable of stunning opponents that are hanging on the edge, setting them up for a super easy B-Air stage spike.
  • The amount of time that an opponent will be stunned by a D-Smash is dependent only on their current percent. The amount of time spent charging the D-Smash will not increase the time stunned.
  • The amount of time that an opponent will be stunned by a Neutral-B is dependent only on the type of charge you used.
  • The longer time spent charging a D-Smash, the farther an opponent will be knocked back after the stun duration is over. (Making it easier to jump out of.)
  • Similarly, the more degenerated your D-Smash is, the shorter an opponent will be knocked back after the stun duration is over. (Making it harder to jump out of.)

Also good to know is how to "D-Smash Chain". Some characters have the misfortune to be incapable of jumping out of ZSS's D-Smash at certain percentages. Alright let me break it down.

The Process: First, D-Smash an opponent. After a short period, they will leave the stun animation and fall backwards, if their recovery isn't good enough, they will touch the ground before being able to jump again. When they are landing, their stun cooldown is being refreshed, therefore allowing ZSS to D-Smash them again, succeeding in stunning them once more. If you have good timing, they will not be able to even shield the attacks. Thus, on certain characters, ZSS has a 100% guaranteed combo.

The Escape: Now, DI can help quite a bit, lowering the "guaranteed" percent a healthy amount. If the opponent DIs their joystick vertically UP (horizontal doesn't matter) at the moment they leave the stun, they will have more time in the air, which will give them more time to recover, and more time to jump. Sadly, there is never any "bad" DI, there is either useless/no DI or good DI. Now, like I said before, charging the D-Smash will knock an opponent higher into the air, giving them more time to jump out of the chain, so try to use the shortest charge possible, or just c-stick it altogether.

The Solution: On the other hand, degenerating your D-Smash by using it repeatedly will make it more difficult for your opponent to escape. This has great implications! The best way to keep your opponent in a D-Smash chain longer is to D-Smash chain them longer! What this means is that if you start a D-Smash chain at a low percent, then by the time you get up to the character's limit, you'll have degenerated your D-Smash enough that you will be able to continue the chain!

The List: Alright, I bet your mouths are watering with curiosity, wondering who the poor victims are. Well with no further ado, here are my findings:

(None and Full refer to the amount of degeneration, so None means you haven't used the D-Smash for 9 moves, and Full means you've used it 8 times in a row.)


  • --------------------- with DI ------- w/out DI ----------
  • Character : ---- None - Full ------ None - Full --------
  • Bowser : --------- 0% - 0% -------- 2% - 24% -------
  • Diddy Kong : ---- 0% - 0% -------- 0% - 13% -------
  • Link : ------------- 0% - 0% -------- 1% - 24% -------
  • Sheik : ---------- 22% - 55% ------ 39% - 91% ------
  • Ganondorf : ----- 0% - 4% -------- 27% - 63% ------
  • Zero Suit Samus: 0% - 0% -------- 0% - 3% --------
  • Metaknight : ----- 0% - 0% -------- 0% - 14% ------
  • King Dedede : --- 0% - 0% --------- 0% - 4% -------
  • Fox : ------------ 58% - 120% ----- 58% - 121% ----
  • Falco : ---------- 20% - 44% ------- 35% - 87% -----
  • Wolf : ----------- 39% - 91% ------- 56% - 117% ---
  • Captain Falcon : 12% - 44% ------- 39% - 93% -----
  • Squirtle : -------- 0% - 0% --------- 0% - 15% ------
  • Ike : ------------- 0% - 0% --------- 0% - 4% --------
  • Lucas : ---------- 0% - 0% --------- 0% - 1% --------
  • Sonic : ---------- 0% - 0% --------- 0% - 2% --------
Basic Explanation: If you connect with a D-Smash while the listed opponent is below the listed percent, before the D-Smash, you will always be able to connect with another D-Smash. For instance, if you were D-Smash a Sheik at 21%, you will always be able to D-Smash her again. Even though her percent will go up to 32% from the D-Smash, since she was below the listed percent before the D-Smash, then you are guaranteed another D-Smash.

So I've got this set up in, what should be, an easy to read fashion. So, if your opponent is not very knowledgeable of ZSS and doesn't know how to properly DI, look at the list on the right. As long as you start the Chain under the first percent listed, you'll hopefully be able to degenerate the D-Smash enough while chaining to reach the second percent listed (ex: If I D-Smash Sheik at 24%, which is less than 39%, I should be able to D-Smash Chain her up to a little over 91%). Now, if your opponent knows what they are doing, look at the list on the left, same rules apply. Now, this should be rather self-explanatory, but if a character's listed percent is 0, and characters can jump out at the percent that is listed, then obviously, that character can't be D-Smash Chained in that way.

Now you may notice a few things about these numbers.

  1. Some characters have incredibly large gaps between DI and non-DI, especially when using a fully degenerated D-Smash. Try to predict how well your opponent knows ZSS, and play accordingly.
  2. Poor Fox, his DI is absolutely useless! No matter how he DIs, his capability to jump out is almost exactly the same.
  3. The chance of chaining a large number of characters on this list is pathetically small, but I included them for the sake of completeness, and who knows, maybe your opponent has never played a ZSS!
  4. Fox and Wolf both have fairly high percents when looking at the fully degenerated limits, even with DI. This is an astounding discovery, because this means that if you connect with a D-Smash on one of these characters at a near zero percent, you will be able to chain them all the way up to KO range.
    This is the first guaranteed Zero-To-Death I have seen in brawl!


Hopefully, that helps in mixing up your Paralyzer game and leads to stuns your opponent never expected!​

Alright, that's all for now! If you have any questions or refutations, post away!
 

Doval

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Minor nitpick.
The amount of time that an opponent will be stunned is dependent only on their current percent. The amount of time spent charging the D-Smash will not increase the time stunned.
Only the stun AFTER paralysis wears off depends on %.
 

FadedImage

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I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to, but when you connect with a D-Smash, your opponent will be in a daze, unable to move or do anything, which is what I call "stunned". After they leave this stun, they will be knocked back and be in a hitlag. Their current percent decides two things:
  1. The amount of time spent in stun.
  2. The distance knocked back.
Try it, go to training, D-Smash a CPU at 999%, and then D-Smash a second CPU at 0%. The one at 0% will leave it's stun much earlier. You'll notice that you will probably KO the 999% CPU as well.
As for the time spent in hitlag, I believe it is entirely character dependent, but I could be wrong. Either way, the time spent in hitlag from D-Smash should be roughly the same as time spent in hitlag from everything else.​
 

Snakeee

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Good stuff, and this clears up what I thought about the chain only really working on a couple of characters -_-. I've had Wolf shield the chain instantly though...maybe I messed up then. I'm gonna try it again. And the fact that the degeneration makes it easier is more reason to use double d smashes.
 

FadedImage

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Yeah, double D-Smash works like a charm! Oh, also, about Wolf. His landing animation is incredibly deceiving. When he lands it looks like he's still doing his backflip, so you have to release the D-Smash a little earlier than you might expect.
 

Snakeee

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Yeah, double D-Smash works like a charm! Oh, also, about Wolf. His landing animation is incredibly deceiving. When he lands it looks like he's still doing his backflip, so you have to release the D-Smash a little earlier than you might expect.
That little tidbit of info might just win me a tourney lol. Thanks a lot.

I'm also wondering how you get figures like 1% o_O. Btw does it mean they escape at that percentage or that's the last time you can do it. (I assume it's the escape percent, but then I don't get how you get stuff like 1 or 4%)
 

FadedImage

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I'm also wondering how you get figures like 1% o_O. Btw does it mean they escape at that percentage or that's the last time you can do it. (I assume it's the escape percent, but then I don't get how you get stuff like 1 or 4%)
The percent shown is the percent that is escapable. But this is the percent before the D-Smash since the knockback is determined by the initial percent before you D-Smash. For example, let's look at Ganondorf. Now, assuming you've never hit him with a D-Smash, (meaning you have no degen on it) if you stun him while he's at 22%, which adds about 11%, he would be leaving the stun at 33%. However, it would still count as if he had 22% as far as my charts are concerned, so he would be able to escape if he uses DI, but he would have to land again if he doesn't DI properly.

So when you get really low numbers, such as the case with Bowser, you would have to get in your first stun while he is under that number, for Bowser, 0% or 1%. If you succeeded in getting that first stun, you are guaranteed a second stun, but by then he will probably be at 12% or such, which makes him far out of range.

So basically, every time you stun a character, just check to make sure that before your stun their percent was lower than their percent limit, and then you can be confident in continuing the chain. If not, follow up like a normal D-Smash (grab, bair, tilts, etc.).

It is interesting to note that it's the percent from the initial stun, because no matter how much damage you add while they are stunned, the chance to chain will still be the same. Yet another reason to stack up multiple D-Smashes!
 

Garde

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Snakeee, if I'm not mistaken, those %'s are the areas at which you can hit where you can get another rep off guaranteed (before d-smash damage). Outside of those % ranges it is entirely escapable.

So Link can be d-smashed if he's at 0-1% and he will be unable to escape before you restun him with another d-smash. If he's at 2%, he'll be able to escape after the stun from the first d-smash is over, though.

EDIT: Faded beat me to it.
 

FadedImage

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Yeah, Garde pretty much said everything I said without the fluff. I was trying to think of a way to say it simply. Failure on my part ):

Oh, I should also say, those percents are inclusive, so Link can actually escape at 1%. You'd have to catch him at a perfect 0% to get another D-Smash, and that's only if he sucks and doesn't DI!
 

Sundown

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Can some1 plz make a video of the double DSmash?, there is soooo much talk about it, and i never saw it :(. I have seen the videos of Ikki with the Chain Dsmashing, but can some1 make a demonstrating video with that double dsmash? I also saw the WIFI video where he 2dsmashes a Fox... but ne1 got something better?

Thanks.
 

Garde

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All you do is d-smash twice, and then wait for them to land and d-smash again. The only thing different from Ikki's single d-smash chain is that you d-smash a second time immediately after successfully stunning, then wait like he does until they're vulnerable again...

I don't really see the need for another demonstration video of something like this as the current examples floating around are pretty clear.
 

Sundown

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Oh ok... i just didnt really get it because of FadedImage´s explanation of how it works... the double part od the double down smashdoesnt fit... as they are not leaving the ground the first 2 smashes... that is what confused me... ok thanks neway.
 

FadedImage

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If you D-Smash an opponent that is already stunned, they will not be re-stunned nor will they leave their current stun, this lead players to D-Smash twice to rack up extra damage. It is really no different than the D-Smash chain, except you D-Smash again instead of wait. (Like Garde said)
 

Sundown

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Oh... of course i think i understand now... the second dsmash is not stunning them again, its just doing damage, and the stun time that allows us to chain is the time that the first dsmash creates.

At last i understood it, sorry if i was too slow :S
 

ph00tbag

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Might I suggest a different testing method? Knockback is calculated based on two things: degeneration and damage after the attack gives damage. This means that if you hit Link at 2% with a sufficiently degenerated dsmash, you could conceivably still lock him once more. IMHO, you should test at what damages characters fly away for degenerated dsmashes, and note at what damage, after the attack has connected, the attack sends him flying too far.
 

Doval

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ph00tbag is right - Damage is calculated with the % you have AFTER being hit, not before. In addition to that, a degenerated attack already has less base knockback even if the person ended up with the same % after the hit. Also, the term "cooldown" is horribly confusing. I prefer to call it paralysis or daze or something else. Cooldown generally refers to a timer before you can use something again.

Also, although you were correct in that the D-smash paralyzes opponents longer the more % they have, the Paralyzer always paralyzes the same amount of time.
 

FadedImage

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Also, the term "cooldown" is horribly confusing. I prefer to call it paralysis or daze or something else. Cooldown generally refers to a timer before you can use something again.
And that's exactly how I was using it. By cooldown, I was referring to the inability to stun someone. Or in other words, the time it took before you can use D-Smash or Neutral-B again. However, after looking over my original post, I see I was very vague, so I fixed it, ty.

Also, although you were correct in that the D-smash paralyzes opponents longer the more % they have, the Paralyzer always paralyzes the same amount of time.
Oh, when I think Paralyzer I just think of the gun itself, meaning both the D-Smash and Neutral-B. I didn't realize you were referring to the Neutral-B exclusively. I'll add that info.
 

Doval

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I don't see how it's possible to even test if that's true, and in either case, it doesn't affect the statistics.
It's definitely more practical to list the % before the attack, but to satisfy your curiosity - If a Star Rod still has star shots in it, the Star Rod's forward tilt and smash attack will get an extra 8% damage (the same damage a star shot though; it's not the result of a star shot, however - training mode will show that only 1 hit connected.) When the Star Rod loses all its charges, both the tilt and smash attack will need an extra 8% to KO.
And that's exactly how I was using it. By cooldown, I was referring to the inability to stun someone. Or in other words, the time it took before you can use D-Smash again.
Ah...I see what happened now. I interpreted the statement "(Both the D-Smash and the Neutral-B share this same cooldown.)" to mean that the D-smash and Neutral B paralyze opponents for the same length of time, but you just meant that to say that they have the same conditions for restunning.
 

Tucker!

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If you do the down c stick, get in the opponents hit box and do up- B it will lift them, then spike them back down to the ground and then you can do your paralyzer again, repeat the process till satisfied lol its kinda cheap but if your behind a stock you cant go wrong with a nice paralyzer to up B comboliciousness
 

The Milk Monster

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If you do the down c stick, get in the opponents hit box and do up- B it will lift them, then spike them back down to the ground and then you can do your paralyzer again, repeat the process till satisfied lol its kinda cheap but if your behind a stock you cant go wrong with a nice paralyzer to up B comboliciousness
Go drink chlorine.
Though I never played ZSS much, the d-smash is the best move in the game, could only be better if it hit on both sides.
Watching Claw's combo video, down smash at the edge to bair stage spike is death waiting to happen.
 

Blistering Speed

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Wait, so you're trying to clear up confusion by telling us D Smash can work like Jiggs' rest?!
No wait, we should give D Smash a rest? I thought it was a good move!

Tucker, don't bump old threads unnecessarily.
 

DeliciousCake

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If you do the down c stick, get in the opponents hit box and do up- B it will lift them, then spike them back down to the ground and then you can do your paralyzer again, repeat the process till satisfied lol its kinda cheap but if your behind a stock you cant go wrong with a nice paralyzer to up B comboliciousness
You bumped a 7 month old thread to tell us something we know doesn't work. Reported.
 

NickRiddle

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This thread is 2 years old...
Why would you reply?...

Well done.
I miss Faded. :(
And Cake. :(:(
And everybody who I looked up to in 2008 who left.
 
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