Grab Release Tactics (Updated)

∫unk · May 27, 2008

I noticed Kizzu doing this.... at mid-high percentages he would use his grab attack just to rack up damage. He wouldn't even throw them. Lower percentages grabs were used to set up dancing blade or 1 dancing blade to u-air.

The opponent would escape around the same spot, but in watching the sequence after I'm not sure if Marth has too much lag after releasing to avoid being hit in return.

Can someone test this? Have Marth just grab attack from anywhere beyond 15% and have the opponent try to break free then use their fastest move immediately after, while Marth will also try to use a move immediately after. Start with something like dancing blade, and if that doesn't work try dolphin slash.

This would be amazing for Marth's game. Kizzu was literally getting 12%+ sometimes from the grab which is a significant improvement over what Marth gets normally. I realize this is dependent on how fast the opponent breaks out but it was still impressive.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RT3kqs4Ls2o&feature=related

Conclusion:
I suggest throwing opponents normally for most of the match so they assume that you will throw them, and once they break out to punish them accordingly. I wouldn't use it more than a few times in a set, but it will help you set up for a crucial kill.

Bottom line: Pummeling your opponent until they break from the release then following it up with either f-smash, dancing blade, or dolphin slash (depending on opponents percentage and how likely you think they'll be prepared to react) is a good tactic if the opponent doesn't expect it.

Steel · May 27, 2008

It's great to use when the opponent is above or slightly below 100%, because it is harder for them to break out (thus more hits) and normally sets up for a kill afterwards.

If you play with Marth or Ike though and you are the one getting grab pounded you can counter as soon as you get out.

illinialex24 · May 27, 2008

nice guides and steel2nd, my main is jiggs and second is marth lol

TKD+ITA+Mar= · May 27, 2008

It also refreshes moves.

Crizthakidd · May 27, 2008

yea im seeing all the better marths return to the insane grab game marth once had. they traded range for this damamge racking and combo

alchfilosofer · May 27, 2008

JunkInTheTrunk said:
....... Start with something like dancing blade, and if that never works than switch to dolphin slash (comes out faster).

Dolphin slash don't come out faster (frame 5) than dancing blade (frame 4), but still a GOOD option (cause it gets immunity frames from frame 5).
And yea marth gets goods grabs (but nothing flashy, just like his stile).

Jibbles · May 27, 2008

Dolphin slash don't come out faster (frame 5)

Actually it starts from frame one (which is why he can break through Falco's Chain grabs)...it just starts to hit the opponent at frame 5

∫unk · May 27, 2008

Invincibility frames are good.

I'll test this tonight or tomorrow night.

alchfilosofer · May 27, 2008

Jibbles said:
Actually it starts from frame one (which is why he can break through Falco's Chain grabs)...it just starts to hit the opponent at frame 5

tahnks for correcting me, but still i got a point if i'm not mistaken, dancing blade hits on frame 4.

∫unk · May 29, 2008

Okay so I tested this...

If the opponent knows it's coming it's worse than a regular grab. You'll do a 4-6% more than a regular grab but then once the opponent gets out he has enough time to put up a shield, ground dodge, or roll before you can do anything. Since you're probably thinking of attacking right after you'll already be in a f-smash/dancing blade/dolphin slash and you'll get punished after.

However, in matches the opponent doesn't always expect it, and won't be able to do the proper escape, in which case its a good tactic.

I suggest throwing opponents normally for most of the match so they assume that you will throw them, and once they break out to punish them accordingly. I wouldn't use it more than a few times in a set, but it will help you set up for a crucial kill.

Bottom line: Pummeling your opponent until they break from the release then following it up with either f-smash, dancing blade, or dolphin slash (depending on opponents percentage and how likely you think they'll be prepared to react) is a good tactic if the opponent doesn't expect it.

GamerGuitarist7 · May 29, 2008

ever thought that maybe kizzu grabs them at mid percentage and just starts hitting him so he can re strengthen his kill moves because of the move decay? grab jabs each count towards the 10 move (i believe) queue that weakens attacks.

He could just grab them, hit them like 5 times, and then all his smash attacks are back to almost full strength. that's what i assumed he was doing.

And right before posting this i saw someone else mentioned it, but i'm going to post it anyway.

TKD+ITA+Mar= said:
It also refreshes moves.

∫unk · May 29, 2008

Yes, I've thought of this.

In most situations, dancing blade also refreshes moves, and would be the better option. Kizzu does a lot of questionable things.

But either way, I don't care what Kizzu was doing it for. My idea was based off watching him. It may or may not be done in the same application. And what I thought of works. Take it or leave it.

legion598 · Sep 7, 2008

uhh does marths jab hit out of this cuz i think thats his fastest hit box

VietGeek · Sep 7, 2008

legion598 said:
uhh does marths jab hit out of this cuz i think thats his fastest hit box

Dancing Blade is the fastest, and even then, most characters have a frame advantage to roll out. From here it's a toss-up from whether your set-up will work, or will you be severely punished.

Pierce7d · Sep 7, 2008

Eh, you guys are funny. I rarely grab anymore in the middle percentages, unless my opponent is just recklessly waving their shield in front if me (and I like shield breaker a lot too). I grab from like 0-4, to chainthrow into Fsmash or Fair/DB mixup.

At higher percentages, since my Dancing Blade is all worn out, I try to get like one or two grabs, and then pummel, to refresh my whole moveset. Then usually Dancing Blade will launch my opponent where I need them to be, and Fair can K.O.

Of course, my game is deeper than that, but that is the underlying basic of my playstyle. MOST of my damage comes from Dancing Blade.

I pummel generally only at high percents now, so I can get the most out of it when it counts.

Ryan-K · Sep 7, 2008

marths grab is one of the better air dodge baiters in the game because they have like no knockback so it sets them up like right next to you plus you can rebuild your move queue so there is no reason not to grab especially since unlike neutral b it cant be powershielded and you can actually trade grab for a hit but you'll always win

Pierce7d · Sep 7, 2008

There are plenty of reasons not to grab.

A) Lots of people like to spot dodge.
B) Dancing Blade deals more damage
C) If you are in range to grab your opponent, you are not safe.
D) Whiffed Grabs leave you very open.

Brawl has like a Rock, Paper, Scissors thing going on. Grabbing beats shielding, but losing to dodging. What most people don't realize is that jabbing tends to beat all of that, lol.

Pierce7d · Sep 7, 2008

Ew . . . double post by accident.

Grabs are good when they're free, but don't stress for them.

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯ · Sep 7, 2008

The only time I might actually go for a grab instead of using it if someone keeps shielding is if the opponent is at 0-4 percent and i can chain grab and at 0% Dthrow/Fthrow>Fsmash for some easy damage. I like to pummel at high percentages, but sometimes I forget to, I suck, I know, sometimes I kinda just get tunnel vision and I want to just grab and then throw and keep attacking, I don't want to stop and pummel.

Edit: I'm not used to my new avatar so I keep thinking that my post doesn't work.

∫unk · Sep 7, 2008

Man this is so weird to see pop up 4 months later... now it's an key part of Marth's game and I use it all the time.

Ryan-K · Sep 7, 2008

Pierce7d said:
There are plenty of reasons not to grab.

A) Lots of people like to spot dodge.
B) Dancing Blade deals more damage
C) If you are in range to grab your opponent, you are not safe.
D) Whiffed Grabs leave you very open.

Brawl has like a Rock, Paper, Scissors thing going on. Grabbing beats shielding, but losing to dodging. What most people don't realize is that jabbing tends to beat all of that, lol.

jab doesn't beat shield.
if you know they are gonna spot dodge then just delay your grab

dancing blade doesnt go through shields

then don't whiff and just dash back pivot grab

true dont overtry

BacklashMarth · Sep 7, 2008

Pierce7d said:
There are plenty of reasons not to grab.

A) Lots of people like to spot dodge.
B) Dancing Blade deals more damage
C) If you are in range to grab your opponent, you are not safe.
D) Whiffed Grabs leave you very open.

Brawl has like a Rock, Paper, Scissors thing going on. Grabbing beats shielding, but losing to dodging. What most people don't realize is that jabbing tends to beat all of that, lol.

Nice to see someone else agrees with the rock, paper, scissors mechanics in brawl. Something always beats out something. Anyway, grabbing at higher percents has its advantages too (especially near the edge). If you f-throw someone when thier damage is high and you walk towards them then they wil usually airdodge. If u space with walkig correctly u can tipper f-smash them clear offscreen for a k.o. Ive been getting this tactic to work by throwing my opponent dashing towards them and going for an attack regularly throughout the match. This conditions them to airdodge after being thrown.

En.Ee.Oh · Sep 7, 2008

none of that stuff kizzu does actually works o_O

VietGeek · Sep 7, 2008

En.Ee.Oh said:
none of that stuff kizzu does actually works o_O

That's what I thought when I watched him too.

I'm just thinking that the Japanese metagame is just crazy...

BacklashMarth · Sep 7, 2008

En.Ee.Oh said:
none of that stuff kizzu does actually works o_O

So we just imagined that epic win vs. ike in that video? Man, i need to lay off the cough syrup

VietGeek · Sep 7, 2008

BacklashMarth said:
So we just imagined that epic win vs. ike in that video? Man, i need to lay off the cough syrup

So I heard there's some sort of combo named after this guy. I hear it works too.

Do you guys know about it?

BacklashMarth · Sep 7, 2008

VietGeek said:
So I heard there's some sort of combo named after this guy. I hear it works too.

Do you guys know about it?

Wait, do you mean me or kizzu? In either case my answer is no, even though "backlash" would make an awesome combo or AT name.

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯ · Sep 7, 2008

superryan said:
jab doesn't beat shield.
if you know they are gonna spot dodge then just delay your grab

dancing blade doesnt go through shields

then don't whiff and just dash back pivot grab

true dont overtry

Why would someone follow you when you dash away if you are regularly using the dash pivot grabbing, that's stupid. If someone dashes away against me and they are using a tactic to hit me if I follow them, I let them dash away and I stay where I am.

Steel · Sep 7, 2008

ike is solid said:
Why would someone follow you when you dash away, that's stupid. If someone dashes away against me, I let them and I stay where I am.

Why? If someone is dashing away then they are trying to get away from pressure their opponent is putting on them or trying to reset their spacing. If you let them go then you are LETTING them reset the situation to neutral, which is what they want.

Ryan-K · Sep 7, 2008

they dont follow you

pivot grab has huge range and if you whiff you are usually at a pretty safe distance so the idea is you retreat but you can still grab them if they stay in place.

what steel2nd said also >_>

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯ · Sep 7, 2008

If they don't follow you then you can't grab them! if you whiff a grab wouldn't you be just as vulnerable as if you grabbed regularly? You would just eat a move to the face if you missed.

And Steel I meant if they are regularly dash pivot grabbing why would you chase? I'll edit my post.

Ryan-K · Sep 7, 2008

ike is solid said:
If they don't follow you then you can't grab them! if you whiff a grab wouldn't you be just as vulnerable as if you grabbed regularly? You would just eat a move to the face if you missed.

um no you can still grab if you dash back but only if you don't do the full distance.

you're at a lesser risk if you miss because you're further away. common sense.

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯ · Sep 7, 2008

So, lots of moves outrange a grab, so you would still get hit and take more damage than you would give so that isn't a good risk to take really, thats why you need to know when to grab, and not wildly run around grabbing, it doesn't work, trust me.

Ryan-K · Sep 7, 2008

ok so what you're saying is never ever pivot grab because it doesn't work because i never said to just "wildly run around grabbing"

also some characters cant outrange marth's grab straight up and the wierd grabbox can grab characters randomly

no **** you need to know when to grab, i thought common sense was already implied. but saying to almost never grab is quite frankly, stupid.

BacklashMarth · Sep 7, 2008

ike is solid said:
Why would someone follow you when you dash away if you are regularly using the dash pivot grabbing, that's stupid. If someone dashes away against me and they are using a tactic to hit me if I follow them, I let them dash away and I stay where I am.

Actually waht ike said here makes sense. You can always re-approach someone (even if they projectile camp). No sense in running after someone only to eat a bair to the face. Dont let your opponent bait u into playing unsafe. They wanna run to the edge of the stage, let them. Saves u the trouble of getting them there manually.

Pierce7d · Sep 7, 2008

Depending on the character, you do not want to let them just run away. If you and your opponent are fighting near an edge, you do not want to just let the Falco, D3, Wolf, Fox, Toon Link, Olimar, R.O.B., just run away. That spacing is not favorable to you. If you were already in the center of a stage no larger than FD, and your opponent retreats, I wouldn't really call that running away, but you should still maintain good spacing and pressure. Obviously you shouldn't be recklessly aggressive, but in close range combat, use your range, and defensive tools to continue applying pressure, even on retreating opponents.

Ryan-K · Sep 7, 2008

BacklashMarth said:
Actually waht ike said here makes sense. You can always re-approach someone (even if they projectile camp). No sense in running after someone only to eat a bair to the face. Dont let your opponent bait u into playing unsafe. They wanna run to the edge of the stage, let them. Saves u the trouble of getting them there manually.

if you have to reapproach through projectile spam you're putting yourself at an unecessary risk even though you already had the advantage.

if they run to the edge as opposed to you getting them there then they can still get you off with stupid bthrow ****. if you have them under pressure you limit their options. why would you let your opponent take the advantage for no reason?

BacklashMarth · Sep 7, 2008

superryan said:
if you have to reapproach through projectile spam you're putting yourself at an unecessary risk even though you already had the advantage.

if they run to the edge as opposed to you getting them there then they can still get you off with stupid bthrow ****. if you have them under pressure you limit their options. why would you let your opponent take the advantage for no reason?

If u run into a b-throw as ur opponent is retreating either u fail or u r fighting someone with ridiculous grab range *cough* DDD. By the time u get close enuff for them to grab you i assume u coulda whipped out DB or some other safe approach. Plus, if they put themselves at the edge, they limit their mobility options. Ergo, retreat no longer becomes an option and they take themselves from one undesirable situation to another.

En.Ee.Oh · Sep 7, 2008

BacklashMarth said:
So we just imagined that epic win vs. ike in that video? Man, i need to lay off the cough syrup

naw you're just clearly ignorant of the ike that takes an f-air and then leaves his unstunned, clearly able to move character open for a down air

Ryan-K · Sep 7, 2008

BacklashMarth said:
If u run into a b-throw as ur opponent is retreating either u fail or u r fighting someone with ridiculous grab range *cough* DDD. By the time u get close enuff for them to grab you i assume u coulda whipped out DB or some other safe approach. Plus, if they put themselves at the edge, they limit their mobility options. Ergo, retreat no longer becomes an option and they take themselves from one undesirable situation to another.

holy **** @ you people you take everything so literally.

i don't mean run right into it it was just an example. if you go to the edge and your opponent is neutral you are also putting yourself at risk too unless they're ****ing stupid and are using a character that can't fight marth's range.

db is only safe if

a) you only use the first hit at maximum range
b) it pushes them off the edge
c) they're using a ****ty character that can't punish

you also seem to forget they can roll/jump/approach with an aerial/do wierd air dodges/dodge into shield to protect from forward b/ attack

you're acting like brawl doesn't have defensive options LOL

Grab Release Tactics (Updated)

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