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Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

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pockyD

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Oh wow, your right. I wouldn't think SDM would make such a n00b mistake considering he himself spent so much time on frame data. Or maybe he's just accepted that Brawl n00bs have fundamentally altered the meaning of the word and is just rolling with it >.>
the thing is, he wasn't even right about the *******ized version of "autocanceling"; it's entirely possible to finish your aerial before hitting the ground but not have enough free frames to double jump immediately
 

Endless Nightmares

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98% of smashers believe "auto-canceling" is simply finishing an aerial before you land, and as such, that's what the term means now. stupid? yes.
Yes, very =[

Silly 56k, at least you weren't being so careless as to contradict yourself on the same page. :V
Saying that it's just as useful is completely different than saying that it replicates the functionality of l-canceling.

Wait..maybe I don't know the meaning of functionality. >__>

I mistakenly thought functionality was the purpose that something serves. (In this case, removing lag from an aerial)

But yeah functionality is the same thing as usefulness. Right? lol

the thing is, he wasn't even right about the *******ized version of "autocanceling"; it's entirely possible to finish your aerial before hitting the ground but not have enough free frames to double jump immediately
Example: Doc's uair

I learned the hard way. I was trying for hours to SHuair double jump uair =[
 

pockyD

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Saying that it's just as useful is completely different than saying that it replicates the functionality of l-canceling.

Wait..maybe I don't know the meaning of functionality. >__>

I mistakenly thought functionality was the purpose that something serves. (In this case, removing lag from an aerial)

But yeah functionality is the same thing as usefulness. Right? lol
arguing about technicalities is stupid; if you legitimately didn't understand what was stated, or even if you're just creating an arbitrary point to debate to sidetrack from the "topical discussion" (which it's not anymore anyway), you're wasting my time -_-
 

PolMex23

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I have a question.

If most of us agree that Melee is the superior competitive game, than will next years EVO and MLG's host for Melee or Brawl.....

The community needs to speak up an express their views on the situation for them (evo mlg) to put Melee back into the line up.
 

pockyD

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MLG has nothing to gain from supporting melee - it's either brawl (unlikely imo) or nothing

there's a chance melee can make it back into evo if brawl flops, but that would require the evo organizers admitting they made a huge mistake, which may or may not be likely
 

The Halloween Captain

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Did MLG stick with Halo 2 when Halo 3 came out?

Since the Halo guys also have this debate, it doesn't make sence that MLG would use the old version of one game and the new version of another.
 

Terios the Hedgehog

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I thought that due to dispensable items Halo players agreed that 3 was better competitively than 2.

However a good amount of Smashers say Melee is better than Brawl.

I don't follow Halo that much though. I only really know what my FPS junkie friends say.
 

Pink Reaper

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The Halo 2/Halo 3 debate isn't the same as the Melee/Brawl debate. Pro-Halo 2 players really are just pissed that they cant abuse BR tricks anymore. The removal of the BXR isn't the same as the removal of L-canceling(or Wavedashing.....or Dash Dancing) because all it was was a OHKO technique. It didn't give you more options, it just allowed you to kill when you technically shouldn't have been able to. I've heard alot of Halo 2 players complain about how they're old "Strategies" don't work any more, but the problem is that those strategies were nothing more than attempting to run off on they're own and kill as many people as possible with the BR, not really a strategy so much as glitch abuse(inb4 n00bs saying L-canceling is a glitch). The other side, the actual PROS, that moved on to Halo 3 just realize that now they have to rely a little more on they're teammates than before. The game for them hasn't fundamentally changed because this is the way they've always played. Halo 3 really is almost exactly the same as Halo 2, its still about call outs, map control, team work and(obviously) good aim :laugh:

As for how this pertains to Melee/Brawl? It doesn't. FPS =/= fighting game, so Im not gonna try and relate the two, im just explaining why the Halo argument is stupid.
 

Terios the Hedgehog

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fixed but dont get me wrong i <3 and support melee, but most people still think that brawl is a better game, because of its very low to non-existent learning curve and everything this guy says http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=islwKns8wQo
Errr... I thought that was what I said. Apparently I only put it on the Halo sentence. :embarrass



I just watched the video. Yes. Thank GOD you can unplug the Nunchuck.


Freaking idiot.
 
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just something to think about IMO, is melee tournaments were heavily run on the tier list, not saying that i didnt agree with the list or the whole anti-tiers thing. while i was at tournaments it got boring seeing Falco VS. Fox, or Sheik VS. Marth. no individuality.

now that brawl has released i think its time to walk melee to the door and say your goodbyes. brawl i think is a better game because since alot or all of the chars. are balanced enough it actually becomes a test of skill, and not who falco is better at wavedashing.
 

Mendoza

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just something to think about IMO, is melee tournaments were heavily run on the tier list, not saying that i didnt agree with the list or the whole anti-tiers thing. while i was at tournaments it got boring seeing Falco VS. Fox, or Sheik VS. Marth. no individuality.

now that brawl has released i think its time to walk melee to the door and say your goodbyes. brawl i think is a better game because since alot or all of the chars. are balanced enough it actually becomes a test of skill, and not who falco is better at wavedashing.
I bring this up a lot in convo about people saying Melee is finished, but one of the last big tourneys in the West Coast before brawl came out had Samus in 1st and Luigi in 2nd. Not only that, but Jiggs made a huge shift to top tier not too long ago... so if that doesn't account to the STILL developing meta-game, I don't know what does. Telling people to stop playing a game that they love even after 7 years is a silly thing to say.
 

DeftFunk

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Wow, so that means when you get an inescapable combo, or as they are called in Brawl, Chain Grabs, that makes the meta evolve?

I think you meant to say, "DE-evolving" >_>
Hey, have you even taken a quick glance at the sticky thread? The list specifically avoids chaingrabs and infinites while maintaining a halfway decent size.

Also, about this Auto-Canceling business, Yes it's not as useful as L-canceling and it's not universally applicable, upon seeing that list, every non-heavy character has at least one (except Pikachu and Luigi) and some canceling is better than none.

That Bowser chaingrab is bad news indeed.
Wouldn't it be great if EVO and MLG hosted tournies for both Melee and Brawl? Everybody would be happy.
 

pockyD

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it's not actually balanced, it just seems that way RIGHT NOW to the untrained eye

the lack of universal techs is something that will hurt brawl in the long run; characters who are intrinsically bad will have nothing to prop them up

in melee, who got the most mileage out of l-canceling? it certainly wasn't sheik or marth or peach or samus... it was bowser, yoshi, ness, game and watch
 

DeftFunk

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the lack of universal techs is something that will hurt brawl in the long run; characters who are intrinsically bad will have nothing to prop them up
What's stopping characters who are intrinsically bad from having character-specific techs to prop them up? Just 'cuz that wasn't the case in Melee doesn't rule out the possibility of it happening in Brawl.
 

Zankoku

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I'm pretty sure Fox and Falco gained a huge boost from combining L-Canceling with their zero-frame-startup Shine, too.
 

pockyD

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because if they have character-specific techs to prop them up to a playable level, then they weren't intrinsically bad to begin with

unless you are a super-optimistic person who believes that it's actually possible to balance out 30 characters to be playable at a competitive level, the absence of universal techs will hurt the overall level of playability, not help it


edit: do you think fox needs l-cancel to shine anywhere near as much as ganondorf needs l-cancel to jab?
 

DD151

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edit: do you think fox needs l-cancel to shine anywhere near as much as ganondorf needs l-cancel to jab?
i personally think this is a bad comparison because it's pretty obvious that fox will be comboed by every other character without l cancel to shine >.> i do agree with your statement that the lack of universal techs relegates the low tier to where they are now without much, if any, hope of improvement.

What's stopping characters who are intrinsically bad from having character-specific techs to prop them up? Just 'cuz that wasn't the case in Melee doesn't rule out the possibility of it happening in Brawl.
the possibility of a character specific tech that will make a low tier competitively viable is incredibly low - you'd almost have to have a tech that increases ground/air speed, hitbox size, attack strength, and hitstun all in one. take the pseudo-wavedash that all the yoshi players are raving about. will that movement advantage compensate for all of his other shortcomings enough to even boost it up a tier? i highly doubt it.
 

pockyD

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i personally think this is a bad comparison because it's pretty obvious that fox will be comboed by every other character without l cancel to shine >.> i do agree with your statement that the lack of universal techs relegates the low tier to where they are now without much, if any, hope of improvement.
obviously it's not a 100% foolproof rule

though fox still has laser camping, dash dance, uthrow uair, ridiculous usmash, shine spike, etc

i can't think of any characters mid tier and lower that would suddenly **** fox now that he can't l-cancel
 

Magus420

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the thing is, he wasn't even right about the *******ized version of "autocanceling"; it's entirely possible to finish your aerial before hitting the ground but not have enough free frames to double jump immediately
Care to explain this? You could most certainly jump if the move's duration finished. Even if the last frame of the attack's duration is the frame before you land, you can still input your jump on that would be landing frame, and you'll instead get the jump off and not land. The jump is handled before deciding whether you land or not, so unless your DJ moves you downward before going upward like Peach's did in Melee, it will prevent you from landing on that frame.

Example: Doc's uair

I learned the hard way. I was trying for hours to SHuair double jump uair =[
Doc's u-air autocancelled from a short hop, but did not complete from a shorthop. It also did not have IASA frames, unlike Mario's u-air which was the same duration and he had the same SH time as Doc, in which case you could SH u-air and doublejump before landing as Mario.

Doc's U-Air
Total: 33
Hit: 4-9
Auto cancel: 16>

Mario's U-Air
Total: 33
Hit: 4-9
IASA: 30
Auto cancel: 16>

Both
SH air time: 32

You're landing before the aerial ends AND landing with zero lag. This was also possible in Melee, but you could only autocancel after the last couple frames which made it almost useless. In Brawl there is a much larger window, often allowing you to land lagless when an aerial is only 3/4 of the way through its animation.
*Look's at Doc's u-air* :p

I'd say the windows were actually at least comparable or maybe even greater in Melee than they are in Brawl on average. People just didn't make much use of them in Melee so they seem a lot better in Brawl. Having made frequent use of Ganon's b/u/d-air autocancels in Melee, I was rather disappointed with just how much smaller the windows were made in Brawl; especially the b-air. In Melee, it was good enough that it could effectively have 1/3 less lag by autocancelling (8 frames of lag/downtime) than l-cancelling it (12 frames).

B-Air
Total: 35
Hit: 10-15
IASA: 29
Auto cancel: <6 19>
Landlag: 25
L canceled: 12


U-Air was pretty nice too since you could SHFFAC it:
Total: 33
Hit: 6-16
IASA: 30
Auto cancel: 22>
Landlag: 25
L canceled: 12


N-Air had a ridiculous AC... but the move kinda sucked... even after they fixed it :laugh:
Total: 44
Hit: 7-8, 20-21 (v1.0 was messed up & the 2nd hit was on 16-17 before his leg even extends also giving it 0 range, lol)
Auto cancel: <3 22>
Landlag: 25
L canceled: 12


And the others were:

F-Air
Total: 44
Hit: 14-19
IASA: 35
Auto cancel: <6 34>
Landlag: 25
L canceled: 12


D-Air
Total: 44
Hit: 16-20
IASA: 38
Auto cancel: <3 36>
Landlag: 35
L canceled: 17
 

Midna-fan

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As you can see I'm pretty new at this. I'm a huge smash fan and have to say that melee is a better than Brawl in COMPETIETIVE PLAY, a lot of peaple side with brawl 'cause they want it to be good(this includes me)
 

Andrew Ott

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I think games aren't what's competetive, rather the people playing them. If you want to win in a game, and you play to win, practice to win, and improve yourself to win, you are a competetive player. Both Brawl, Melee, and any other 2-player game in existence has this possibility. The difference is the game's potential.

I wasn't ranked or anything, but I went to Melee tournaments and I fought the best players right up until Brawl's release, so I think I can say this confidently. Melee makes me work to win, and Brawl is more relaxed and leisurely. The reason Melee drew more people to become competetive at it was because the game barely limited you at all. If you gained more skill, you became better, and that never seemed to stop. There were technical aspects to master with muscle memory, tactics to learn, mindgames; prediction and pattern recognition, so many things to think about. Combine that with the fact that the game was FAST, you were on your toes, controllers clicking, it even made me sweat sometimes.

Brawl on the other hand, while just as fun as Melee in the features department, is unquestionably more limiting (and SLOW). Advanced tactics being removed didn't make Melee players unable to win, it just limited them to the basics. There was no longer a feeling of limitless possible skill gain, and that's the frustrating part, along with the feeling of the "ol' Melee days" being gone for good.

I guess basically, one game isn't better than the other, that's people's individual opinion. BUT, personally, I play Smash because I can always improve, learn, adapt, and have fun playing other people, and Brawl is beneath Melee in that area. Both are still amazing games, and I play Brawl more often then Melee now just for the newness factor. I don't really see what this argument is trying to prove (Brawl should be more like Melee, people should stop trying to find tactics in Brawl, one is better than the other; which are all impossible/wrong IMO). "Which is more competetive" DOES depend on the definition of the word. I think the player has varying degrees of competitive drive, and games have varying levels of potential.

People say that Brawl may show more potential in the future, and while this is certainly possible, it's still frustrating for the people who WANTED a game with Melee's potential and aren't seeing it so far. Hence all the "discussions" I assume.
 

Eggm

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People who think auto canceling is comparable to l-canceling aren't even worth arguing with, they are so different and l-canceling is so much more useful its crazy.
 
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