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Help revive Melee for competitive play

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Kix

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What I see all around me is that because Brawl came out everyone (at least around me) has seemed to drop Melee. People say Melee is a thing of the past and that we should embrace the new game or that Brawl is not Melee and that they are separate games. I wonder how many people that say this still play Melee?

I am bothered by the fact that what is the competitive scene seems to be overtaken purely by Brawl and Brawl is not a very good competitive game. I play games like Guilty Gear XX Accent Core and something like random tripping is completely unacceptable. Worse than this, the defense is very overpowered in Brawl. The lack of stun, both hit and block, the strength of spot dodge and the rolls having less lag combined with the extreme lack of true combos and ways to get out of set ups with little risk are a huge problem. I think that this goes beyond the realm of opinion because in games like these the point is to attack. Not like there should not be defense or good defensive techniques, but risk in this game isn't rewarded as it is far more punished. Melee has problems but when you do something things are either guaranteed or are clearly advantageous for set ups. Combos and stun are a big deal.

While I could see some arguing that you can do things in ways to make them more safe things mostly are not safe, or at least do not give you good results in the game generally for when you try to attack. I think that this again has to do with the strength of defense and it is so easy to counter so often. I'm not saying this is 100% but it is pretty bad in this game. I also find the gigantic hitboxes in this game and the way they clash is seems like things are harder to get around in addition to the moves that you may use to get around them not working too well. Things like crouch canceling helped this I think. I know there is some hard stuff but it seems more beatable than Brawl and maybe it will put you in a more advantageous situation.

I think that also the techniques that are in Melee having to do with the general system give it far more depth. Things like knockdown and tech chasing, where do they stand in Brawl? It adds a lot I think and it seems a lot like okizeme in other fighting games. People might bring up balance but I don't think it is really clear cut. At first I thought Brawl was colossally more balanced but as time has gone on I really see how bad a lot of things are. It looks to me that you have to play a lot of characters to compete because of matchups and even with bottom tier in Melee I felt like I had more of a chance. In Brawl once characters are understood they don't stand much chance. I could be wrong about this, though. That's just how I see it after playing so much and so many people.

In short Melee being less random, attacking being a good thing, guaranteed things like combos and additionally the system depth makes it a superior competitive game. The ability to get through attacks and maybe even the actual balance (which this may go along with) may be a point to make as well. I think that Brawl should be played on the side if at all. Brawl with items in Evo looks like this community will just go down hill. That's already going down hill.
 

Jack Kieser

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I was all about to voice my support... until the Brawl comparisons took over the majority of your post. Melee is a great game, but there is NO reason both games can't be featured at tournaments (except for maybe a lack of time).
 

Kix

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I was all about to voice my support... until the Brawl comparisons took over the majority of your post. Melee is a great game, but there is NO reason both games can't be featured at tournaments (except for maybe a lack of time).
I think the Brawl comparisons matter a lot because Brawl seems to overtake Melee. Melee is a good competitive game. Brawl is not. Brawl might be fun and have tournaments, but it isn't a particularly good competitive game for the reasons I stated.

If anything it shouldn't be played over Melee, Brawl should be in the background competitively. If you want to have Brawl in tournaments or even if you don't want to have Melee, that's your decision but I am talking about what game is a better competitive game. Why people seem to drop Melee just perplexes me. I think that if Melee dies then this scene will eventually wear away or at the very least will be a joke.
 

Jack Kieser

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You know what would be great? If people could just play the games they wanted and not care what other people played. Just hold Melee tournaments and not care about Brawl tournaments, if you really want to. If all the people who voice their love for Melee SO LOUDLY on the boards really are clamoring for Melee tournaments, then why is this such a problem?

EDIT: Oh, AZ, are you addressing me or the OP?
 

AlphaZealot

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That is entirely your preference and opinion. Stating it like fact does not make it true.

Watch this: Melee is less competitive than Brawl because one hit can easily lead to 50-60% damage, meaning far less mental battles must be won to determine the ultimate victor.
 

Kix

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That is entirely your preference and opinion. Stating it like fact does not make it true.
What is opinion about defense being ultra overpowered in a game where attacking is what you do? Are there many true combos? Do set ups for things in the air work because of stun, directional influence and dodging? Where is guard stun? Are the defensive lenient techniques easily counterable? Does Brawl have more system techniques? Is random tripping good for competition if you lose one stock because of it in even 10 matches? Which is a better competitive game?

Jack, my problem is that people are not clamoring for Melee tournaments. Melee players might think it is a lost cause and don't care anymore but if enough people are of the opinion then maybe we can get things back together.

AZ - your edited comment at the end is just opinion. At least it works even if you do get killed what you think is too quickly. The point of the game is to get them out and hit them, not to turtle and do lenient defensive techniques. When you attack you shouldn't be at far greater risk just to be directly countered in so many situations.

There is a factor where you get something for risks and for attacking instead of just pretty much being countered.
 

Jack Kieser

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Sorry man, but if Melee fans clamor on the boards, but IRL they feel under-motivated, that sounds like a personal problem. If they REALLY want Melee to stay alive, they should put forth the effort. If they aren't willing to do so, they should stop cluttering the boards with their propaganda. One or the other, people.
 

Kix

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Sorry man, but if Melee fans clamor on the boards, but IRL they feel under-motivated, that sounds like a personal problem. If they REALLY want Melee to stay alive, they should put forth the effort. If they aren't willing to do so, they should stop cluttering the boards with their propaganda. One or the other, people.
Well do you not see the majority just moving to Brawl and thinking it's a lost cause? I think this reasoning may change some people's mind or help them feel motivated.

Also I want community support from people that play Brawl. I want them to think about this. Maybe people that dropped Melee.
 

Jack Kieser

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Look, I'm sure you have the best of intentions. Really, I do. This debate, however, has been raging for MONTHS. You aren't saying anything that hasn't already been said 100 times. If it hasn't worked yet, it's probably not going to work anytime soon. If people REALLY want to play Melee, they will. If they don't, then they won't. That goes for anyone b*tching about Brawl on this site and still going to Brawl tourneys, too. If you don't like Brawl, you shouldn't play it. I don't care if Brawl is where all the players are, or where all the money is at. If you don't like it, you should just PLAY MELEE.
 

Kix

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Look, I'm sure you have the best of intentions. Really, I do. This debate, however, has been raging for MONTHS. You aren't saying anything that hasn't already been said 100 times. If it hasn't worked yet, it's probably not going to work anytime soon. If people REALLY want to play Melee, they will. If they don't, then they won't. That goes for anyone b*tching about Brawl on this site and still going to Brawl tourneys, too. If you don't like Brawl, you shouldn't play it. I don't care if Brawl is where all the players are, or where all the money is at. If you don't like it, you should just PLAY MELEE.
Where then is the community? Where is the competition? I am questioning why the focus is on Brawl; is it because it is new? I am not saying this maybe hasn't been said, but to what detail I'm not sure.

I am saying this not only to get competition, to make a point about which game is better on a competitive level but also that maybe this will help the community of Smash. Is this community serious? Tell me that anything I have mention bad about the game is conducive to serious competitive play.
 

AlphaZealot

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None of this reasoning is new. This is an overdone topic, you can find 2 or 3 of these in Brawl discussion actually.

I'll give this topic a couple more hours then its getting shut down.

your edited comment at the end is just opinion. At least it works even if you do get killed what you think is too quickly. The point of the game is to get them out and hit them, not to turtle and do lenient defensive techniques. When you attack you shouldn't be at far greater risk just to be directly countered in so many situations.

There is a factor where you get something for risks and for attacking instead of just pretty much being countered.
That was exactly my point. It was an opinion. Just as yours is an opinion. Why does offense have to be stronger than defense? And is that actually true? If it were, then matches would technically never end, nor would there be consistent winners, but we know matches end and we know the better player wins as well. I know my Diddy Kong gets plenty when he goes on the offensive.
 

Kix

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None of this reasoning is new. This is an overdone topic, you can find 2 or 3 of these in Brawl discussion actually.

I'll give this topic a couple more hours then its getting shut down.



That was exactly my point. It was an opinion. Just as yours is an opinion. Why does offense have to be stronger than defense? And is that actually true? If it were, then matches would technically never end, nor would there be consistent winners, but we know matches end and we know the better player wins as well. I know my Diddy Kong gets plenty when he goes on the offensive.
The philosophy of these very types of games and what makes them competitive is offense first. Techniques, depth. I am not saying there are not offensive options and that you cannot outsmart your opponent but what does is mean when it is so hard for you to go on offense, or at the very least for so many characters?

Maybe this is too theoretical. I mean I hit and do some things and they work sometimes but I don't think that's what I'm getting at. I think it actually goes beyond opinion that more things can be got around in Melee and that the system lets offense work, set ups work and allows for you to get out of things.

I see the other topics but I think this might be different. Melee has more system techniques and for what it is, it works. No tripping. I don't see how it isn't clearly superior to Brawl in competitive terms. Why is the community so focused on Brawl is my biggest question though. Maybe this question differentiates this thread and the fact that it is stated how the very nature of these types of games is messed up with Brawl thus making a worse competitive game but I guess isn't new. Who is listening?
 

Stroupes

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To revive Melee doesn't mean you have to let Brawl die.
Just play Melee and Brawl, if that's your thing.
If not, do what you will; internet text shouldn't change your mind about either game.
The way I see it, either game can be played competitively or for fun.
Competitive = fun, and fun = competitive.
You can still be all for competitive Melee and enjoy Brawl.
I know Brawl was watered down, but that doesn't mean it's for 3 year-olds.
Anyone can play, and make competitiveness out of it.
 

Kix

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To revive Melee doesn't mean you have to let Brawl die.
Just play Melee and Brawl, if that's your thing.
If not, do what you will; internet text shouldn't change your mind about either game.
The way I see it, either game can be played competitively or for fun.
Competitive = fun, and fun = competitive.
You can still be all for competitive Melee and enjoy Brawl.
I know Brawl was watered down, but that doesn't mean it's for 3 year-olds.
Anyone can play, and make competitiveness out of it.
Internet text? This is SPAAAARTAAAA!!!

Actually this is reasoning. Why couldn't it change your mind or shift the focus? I am all for Brawl being enjoyed but I don't like how it simply replaces Melee with so many people.
 

Kix

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I thought this was a competitive scene. They can play what they want but isn't this central to where the competition comes from? I am not trying to force you not to play it although I would be happy if you didn't, but as a competitive community why is the focus on this game? I don't see any other reason other than it is new.

I know this isn't the Guilty Gear community or anything, there seem to be a lot of more casual people but which is this community for the most part?
 

The Real Inferno

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You'd have to be both blind AND ******** to not know this topic with these EXACT SAME points has not only been made once or twice....but like five times a day. This post is nothing new, it's just in a different forum than it usually it. And nobody important will care still.

Edit: If you want to revive Melee so bad, then get on the Melee boards and spark some conversation about the bloody game, like some of us do. Get people interested in talking about the game, and they will get just as interested in playing it again, it's that simple.
 
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