Game & Watch Match-up Export Thread Directory

Jmex · Aug 7, 2008

As Cutter said in his post, this is in G&W favor. My friend plays ZZS and i have to say although ZZS does have a good glide toss G&W's glide toss is equally if not better than hers. Also most of G&W's moves counter her's (Clash) or go throw her moves. Just as Cutter said her up air and side be moves are good against G&W although G&W can kill her early with Dsmash, Fsmash, Usmash, and usually gimp her pretty easily.

6:4 Advantage G&W

cutter · Aug 8, 2008

No insight Ruuku? If you don't have anything OBM won't make an update; maybe I can write it up again

We need to revive this thread. DanGR is tackling a new matchup chart that is going to be based off of the character matchup threads. I have posted there what characters we have discussed so far.

Voxx · Aug 9, 2008

Who's next? Ike? Lucci? Kirby?

Neb · Aug 9, 2008

We don't go on until we discuss the current match-up more, says OBM.
I don't have any experience in this bout, :/.

cutter · Aug 9, 2008

I will be camping this weekend and won't be back until Sunday evening or so. I haven't started G&W v ZSS write-up, so don't expect anytime soon.

Voxx · Aug 9, 2008

I know, im just curious to know who we are going to discuss next. I got kinda bored of GW, im testing out kirby and he is great. :D

cutter · Aug 9, 2008

Well I'm not going camping. Looks like another boring weekend at home

I'll work on a write up for G&W v ZSS summary later.

Neb · Aug 9, 2008

cutter said:
Well I'm not going camping. Looks like another boring weekend at home

I'll work on a write up for G&W v ZSS summary later.

Welp, that sucks.
You can always do it in your backyard?
xD, lol, jk.

cutter · Aug 9, 2008

Neb said:
Welp, that sucks.
You can always do it in your backyard?
xD, lol, jk.

You've never been in Oregon, have you? Actually, it wasn't because of weather. My dad had jury duty.

Then again, I've never been in SC.

Neb · Aug 9, 2008

cutter said:
You've never been in Oregon, have you? Actually, it wasn't because of weather. My dad had jury duty.

Then again, I've never been in SC.

Actually, I've been to Oregon, just too young to remember; military family.
In any case, nice to have you back, even though you hardly left, lol.

cutter · Aug 10, 2008

Alright I wrote a summary for G&W-ZSS. Where are you Ruuku? Please add anything I might have overlooked. Since OBM doesn't want to update he can just copypaste this summary as well

Zero Suit Samus: (6/4)

General Matchup:

ZSS’s strengths lie in her massive range on some moves and speed on others. She has actual combo setups thanks to moves like Neutral B and Dsmash paralyzing you. She is very quick on the ground and also mobile in the air.

ZSS doesn’t really have problems with killing even though she has only two real good moves at accomplishing that: Side B and Uair. In particular the Side B is a very powerful kill move when it’s fresh; it has massive range, and the whole move will drag you into the sweetspot.

ZSS also has access to powerful items at her disposal thanks to her armor parts at the beginning of the game. They can serve to pile on damage or give ZSS another possible kill move.

Unfortunately for ZSS, her paralyzer setups with Neutral B and Dsmash are nullified by the bucket, which will result in 0-death depending on what was absorbed. This takes away one of her best attributes in setting up true combos.

ZSS is a lightweight and will not be able to take much punishment from G&W. To make matters worse for her, she has a tether recovery that can be easily gimped; which puts another huge blow on her survivability.

General Strategies:

Don’t approach ZSS in a direct horizontal or vertical line. She’ll have an Fsmash, Side B, grab, or armor pieces waiting for horizontal approaches and Usmash, Up B, and armor pieces against vertical approaches. As powerful and rangy these moves are, they don’t cover diagonals or from below. This is where you want to approach from.

Turtle dancing diagonally and Nair through platforms all at an angle really help to get around ZSS’s rangy attacks. Don’t forget Up B as well; ZSS has no real good move when you’re below her.

Her Dair is a stall ’n fall like G&W’s but it is not disjointed, it has less priority, and it has awful cooldown time when she lands. G&W’s Uair completely shuts down ZSS’s Dair and allows you to control the match because again, she is helpless against Uair and has to resort to airdodging/DIing allowing you to force her hand.

Obviously bucket her neutral B and Dsmash. Being able to annul two amazing setup moves can limit ZSS’s options at racking up damage.

ZSS is a prime target for Dsmash, which kills her very quickly when tippered. She’s also in huge trouble if she gets knocked off the stage by a sourspotted Dsmash because of the angle it sends her at.

Stage Selection

Pick stages that have many platforms so you can approach ZSS at different angles and get around her huge-ranged attacks. Battlefield works well because of the platforms, and Rainbow Cruise appears to be a fantastic counterpick like usual. Frigate Orpheon also seems to be a viable counterpick stage as well because of the lack of ledges for ZSS’s tether recovery.

Avoid linear stages like Final Destination that limit the amount of ways you can approach at. It is also advisable to stay away from stages like Norfair that have many edges for ZSS to latch on to with her tether.

BlkSheep642 · Aug 10, 2008

Wow, this has really helped out ^_^ thanx

Ruuku · Aug 10, 2008

Sorry for the wait. It seems like cutter got the matchup pretty much right so I'll just add a few things.

Some information about ZSS:

- her dash attack recovers pretty fast so she can go into tilts/grab mix up

- she is somewhat floaty giving her good mixups options between the range of SH side B and SH neutral B

- all of her other aerials come out fast and her forward or backward Nair covers odd diagonal angles

Some advice for the matchup:

- don't be afraid to do some FH aerials and to crouch into Dtilts to mess up the height ZSS' mainly horizontal approach.

- it actually isn't easy to bucket a SH neutral B without eating a combo right after. Especially since she can mix it up with side B.

- a lot of ZSS players tend to use Dsmash more against aggressive opponents. Shield canceled dashes into bucket, Nair, or Dsmash can be useful. Empty jumps/air dodges into tilts or Nair can be good as well.

I hope this helps. I haven't played this game in almost two months so I can't remember everything at the moment.

cutter · Aug 11, 2008

Good enough for me Ruuku. Time to move on.

omegablackmage · Aug 12, 2008

I like what you've written cutter, but theres a bit i'd like to add in. Overall, good writeup, i will give you credit of course

ZSS (5/5):

General Matchup:

ZSS’s strengths lie in her massive range on some moves and speed on others. She has actual combo setups thanks to moves like Neutral B and Dsmash paralyzing you. She is very quick on the ground and also mobile in the air. Alot of her long range attacks have priority that even gw can't cut through. You will have a hard time moving through the up b, upsmash, forward smash, and the forward b.
ZSS doesn’t really have problems with killing even though she has only two real good moves at accomplishing that: Side B and Uair. In particular the Side B is a very powerful kill move when it’s fresh; it has massive range, and the whole move will drag you into the sweetspot. If unused during the battle, the bair is also an incredible kill move. If you get hit by the dsmash at high percents, bairs can hurt a lot.
ZSS also has access to powerful items at her disposal thanks to her armor parts at the beginning of the game. They can serve to pile on damage or give ZSS another possible kill move.
Unfortunately for ZSS, her paralyzer setups with Neutral B and Dsmash are nullified by the bucket, which will result in 0-death depending on what was absorbed. This takes away one of her best attributes in setting up true combos.
ZSS has an incredible combo game that is not to be taken lightly. Dash attack, jabs, upsmash, up air, up b, downsmash, dtilt, all link well together in some way, and there are probably more odd moves that they could throw in there. If you are unexperienced or not careful, you'll see very powerful combos that will have you at kill percents in no time.
ZSS is a lightweight and will not be able to take much punishment from G&W. To make matters worse for her, she has a tether recovery that can be easily gimped; which puts another huge blow on her survivability.

General Strategies:

Don’t approach ZSS in a direct horizontal or vertical line. She’ll have an Fsmash, Side B, grab, or armor pieces waiting for horizontal approaches and Usmash, Up B, and armor pieces against vertical approaches. As powerful and rangy these moves are, they don’t cover diagonals or from below. This is where you want to approach from.
Turtle dancing diagonally and Nair through platforms all at an angle really help to get around ZSS’s rangy attacks. Don’t forget Up B as well; ZSS has no real good move when you’re below her.
Her Dair is a stall ’n fall like G&W’s but it is not disjointed, it has less priority, and it has awful cooldown time when she lands. G&W’s Uair completely shuts down ZSS’s Dair and allows you to control the match because again, she is helpless against Uair and has to resort to airdodging/DIing allowing you to force her hand.
Don't be foreign to the combos that zss has at her disposal. Dash attack can be canceled very quickly into an uptilt which can combo into a lot of aerials from there. Her jab is incredibly difficult to punish as there is very little startup/cooldown to it. Also keep in mind that her grab has a lot of cooldown, yes, but also will distroy bad turtle approaches simply due to range.
Obviously bucket her neutral B and Dsmash. Being able to annul two amazing setup moves can limit ZSS’s options at racking up damage. Try to bait her into using the projectile when you can at low percents. Her upsmash doesn't do a lot of damage, so the only move you really need to worry about is the forward b. IMO, it is well worth taking the forward b to potentially take her last stock w/o any effort.
ZSS is a prime target for Dsmash, which kills her very quickly when tippered. She’s also in huge trouble if she gets knocked off the stage by a sourspotted Dsmash because of the angle it sends her at.
When the match begins, i prefer to just camp on the ledge. The armor pieces will disappear based on how long they sit on the ground, so this will effectively eliminate two of the pieces because she can only hold one at a time. When on the ledge they usually will bounce the piece near the edge, or throw it down at you, which you can up b through. The idea is to take this innate, 1 stock advantage she has away by simply camping at the beginning.

Stage Selection

Pick stages that have many platforms so you can approach ZSS at different angles and get around her huge-ranged attacks. Battlefield works well because of the platforms, and Rainbow Cruise appears to be a fantastic counterpick like usual. Frigate Orpheon also seems to be a viable counterpick stage as well because of the lack of ledges for ZSS’s tether recovery.
Avoid linear stages like Final Destination that limit the amount of ways you can approach at. It is also advisable to stay away from stages like Norfair that have many edges for ZSS to latch on to with her tether.

I also think we're looking at a neutral matchup. Because she has so much range w/ alot of her attacks, including kill moves, GW has a lot of trouble getting in. Diagonal approaches work nice, but are also subject to simple sheildgrabbing. She can rack up damage nice w/ combos, and can kill with bair/uair/forward b. I think a neutral.

cutter · Aug 12, 2008

cool **** OBM. Ledgestalling is really a very nice way to wait for the armor pieces to disappear. I indeed forgot about something like that...

EDIT: Against Wolf now eh?

Wolf's lasers go through the Turtle and cannot be ducked, but obviously can be bucketed. This really shuts down any sort of camping that Wolf can do. Even when you have a full bucket and you can't absorb any more, it's not too hard to avoid the lasers. They are slow, disappear after a good amount of range, and have a slow rate of fire. The strength of the lasers gives Oil Panic very very strong power; it can result in 0-death sometimes.

Wolf is good at racking up damage and can keep his kill moves fresh thanks to a 3-hit jab and a very fast grab attack. His main kill moves are Dsmash, Fsmash, and a DAC'ed Usmash. (mostly it's Dsmash from what I've seen). He can't edgeguard G&W because of his subpar recovery and Uair stops spiking attempts. I would learn to space myself so I don't get hit by the Dsmash. It comes out very fast and has great kill power when fresh, but its range isn't that great and it isn't disjointed.

His Fsmash.. ugh it can just be annoying as hell. Thank god it's not a disjointed hitbox; I've managed to cancel it with Bair and Dtilt when timed correctly. Generally, most Wolfs use Fsmash to rack up damage because of its reach, spammability, and it's pretty safe.

G&W seems to dominate in the air since Wolf has no disjointed hitboxes to match G&W's attacks. He also is a fastfaller, which means you can nail him with a lot of Nair

His shine is also annoying as well. Invincibilty frames and it sets up into more stuff.

6/4 in favor of G&W. A good Wolf player can keep this one close because he's good at racking up damage and kills well when his kill moves are fresh. The bucket and superior aerials give G&W the advantage in my book.

omegablackmage · Aug 12, 2008

at this point, theres a lot of characters i could pick from, so i just went randomly with wolf.

i think theres a lot of things that wolf has going for him that make things difficult for gw, mainly his fsmash. This is what most of the topic will be about. A defensive wolf can simply walk away from all of your aerials and fsmash and then move from there. Blaster camping doesn't work well, but they can use it to get guaranteed hits if they bait you. He has a lot of quick aerials such as the back air that can be complete nightmares to deal with.

I'll be the first to admit that i have very little wolf experience. I would guess somewhere between a 6-4 to 7-3, but im really not sure. Maybe some of you guys have more wolf exp?

Next in the lineup for discussions is probably ike, wario, pit, lucario, and ice climbers.

also, sorry for the excessive delays, i just would like to avoid updating if we only have a few inputs, hope you guys understand.

Neb · Aug 12, 2008

If your going to bucket, carpet your lag with some chef spam. Not only does it encourage laser, but it also creates an obstacle to counters; try and bucket the early so your not building up a stale Oil Panic. When approaching on ground, use SH's over his projectile, or run in with shield canceled dashes, or spotdodges.

Dtilt can be a good edge-guard instead of risking a spike by running off the stage (His Up-b Spikes). Once you play the dtilt, chair, or chef game, you'll push him back to a range he can't recover from.

Best approach of course would be aerially; once your inside you can really reap havoc, he's also quite easy to juggle. So uthrow can be a trump card in this match. 6/4, G&W's favor.

I say Falco or Wario next.

omegablackmage · Aug 12, 2008

ah yeah i forgot about falco, he's definitely coming up very soon

A2ZOMG · Aug 12, 2008

Wolf IMO is like Olimar, in that he's one of those matchups that will catch you off guard and own you the first time you ever play it. But he's not that bad. Granted, he's not as easy as Olimar because you can't D-throw D-smash him for an easy gimp, but this matchup is still in G&W's favor. I think it's 55/45 to 6/4 in G&W's favor. Not by a huge amount.

Firstoff the F-smash. If you find yourself a little too close to space things against Wolf, just shield it. Once you get into the knack of doing that, learn to punish it with attacks. I do this all the time with most characters in general when I play against Wolf, and chances are that G&W should not ignore this opportunity either. I think your F-smash can outprioritize his F-smash, but you need to pull it out in advance and his blaster outprioritizes that.

If you have room to space attacks, keep in mind this is also likely the range where Wolf will want to blaster you. Stages with platforms can be a godsend for giving you time to judge the situation. Just beware, Wolf's stance keeps him low enough to avoid your D-air through platforms IIRC and His U-smash goes through them too, and it can be Dash attack canceled for amazing distance.

Don't randomly throw out Buckets. That will get you F-smashed. Try to learn when your opponent likes to throw out lasers. The safest place to collect lasers is when you are recovering. If you can collect a laser from the furthest range possible, it will be difficult for Wolf to punish you from there of course. The laser is slightly weaker from a distance, but that doesn't matter much.

And of course, don't forget to ledgeguard him. F-airs, Up-Bs, and slowfalled D-airs are my favorite attacks for ledgeguarding.

U-air stalling I don't think works that well on Wolf because he DIs fast, but I could be wrong. Doesn't matter a whole ton since G&W can hold his ground easily with his own aerial attacks.

Hylian · Aug 13, 2008

IMO GW vs Wolf is 65-35 or 70-30 in G&W's favor.

At FAST I 2-0'ed Chexrs Wolf pretty solidly in tournament. It just seems like G&W's bair shuts down most of wolfs options. Wolf is easy to combo, easy to gimp, and easy to avoid with G&W.

A2ZOMG · Aug 13, 2008

Huh.

Maybe I'm just held back by lag since all my best competition is online. =(

cutter · Aug 13, 2008

Wolf has no outs against Bair except with a blaster shot or his shine if you're up real close. Good thing it travels in a very slow and straight line which allows you to Bair diagonally above him or do it from a fastfall.

I played a match today against Wolf, and I actually stopped his Fsmash with the Jab. If you time a Dtilt or Bair correctly, you can block the Fsmash. Plus with G&W's light weight, he appears to fly out of the first weak hit and out of range from the second knockback hit when G&W is at high %. Does the Dash attack block his Fsmash too? I believe it should thanks to dash attack's very high priority.

Nair wrecks Wolf. He falls fast and he's heavy. You can easily get 40% or more off a bunch of Nair chains.

Ruuku · Aug 13, 2008

Nair and Utilt own the **** out of Wolf.

JCav · Aug 14, 2008

im a terrible misplaced wolf player, im just posting here for no good reason. but anyway, my friend plays a good g & w and what makes me mad is

up smash when i go to shine
bucket
disjointed hitboxes
bucket
turtle

i know im no help, im just wandering around...

napZzz · Aug 16, 2008

This is getting kind of ridiculous...looking at all of these it seems you think game and watch can go even with everything by finding a few strategies...

Emblem Lord · Aug 16, 2008

G&W boards are a little too hopeful in their match-ups.

And wtf at 4/6 disadvantage to TL.

I will debate that right now to be in G&W's favor.

napZzz · Aug 16, 2008

Emblem Lord said:
G&W boards are a little too hopeful in their match-ups.

And wtf at 4/6 disadvantage to TL.

I will debate that right now to be in G&W's favor.

I KNOW!

And what confuses me the most is how they think snake is a 5/5. WTF

A little overconfident in most of these match ups...

But anyways, I've never had marth problems but instead of trying to clash with him for range or priority I usually wait to dodge whatevers coming and counterattack. At least thats I try to do. Dsmash is usually a good killer. Marths Fsmash is pretty OP and you can usually bait marth into doing it so you can dodge and kill. Eh. Just things from my exp.

Neb · Aug 17, 2008

-NaPPy said:
This is getting kind of ridiculous...looking at all of these it seems you think game and watch can go even with everything by finding a few strategies...

Well, the thing is, he doesn't have big flaws that can change the course of a battle. He's not too slow, doesn't have a big projectile problem, etcetc. Being featherweight is his only big struggle. Other characters, Snake for instance, have trouble with spammy/campy characters. Luckily, G&W can adapt to most of his problems better than the majority of the smash roster.

A2ZOMG · Aug 17, 2008

Emblem Lord said:
G&W boards are a little too hopeful in their match-ups.

And wtf at 4/6 disadvantage to TL.

I will debate that right now to be in G&W's favor.

Y'know, I just realized that TL gets D-throw D-smash/F-smash *****. And his projectile game really isn't a threat because you can swat it away. Not just that, slowfalled D-airs **** his recovery. And up close you just outrange him.

Yep, definitely in G&W's favor.

Right now Snake might have the advantage on G&W since Noj Hylian and xyz seem to think so. I really don't think it's a huge advantage though.

Emblem Lord · Aug 17, 2008

Snake most certainly has advantage vs G&W as does MK.

Snake vs G&W is at least 65/35 Snake IMO. MK vs G&W is 60/40 MK IMO.

Marth vs G&W is honestly 55/45 Marth's favor IMO.

OBM lets personal experience override data/evidence too much.

lol. G&W's d-throw isn't even a good throw trap. An opponent has too many options to deal with it.

G&W has advantage on TL for a very basic reason. Better options overall and TL has no options that would allow him to have advantage over G&W.

A2ZOMG · Aug 17, 2008

I don't think xyz would agree that MK has the advantage on G&W. IIRC he hasn't yet been beaten by a single MK in Florida. =/

But no seriously, G&W's D-throw ***** any lightweight who can't tech consistently. That definitely includes Marth, Metaknight, and G&W himself. Not to mention Toon Link.

Emblem Lord · Aug 17, 2008

G&W's d-throw is a terrible tech trap.

Terrible. It leaves his opponent with too many options to get out.

You can just tech for crying out loud. You can even choose what side you land on.

Terrible.

A2ZOMG · Aug 17, 2008

Emblem Lord said:
G&W's d-throw is a terrible tech trap.

Terrible. It leaves his opponent with too many options to get out.

You can just tech for crying out loud. You can even choose what side you land on.

Terrible.

I'm not sure about you but most people don't seem to be able to tech it consistently.

If they try to go behind you, you can F-smash, F-tilt, or D-smash the opponent if they are lightweight enough.

Emblem Lord · Aug 17, 2008

They need to practice teching it.

And even if you don't tech it you can just hold left or right and you will out of the way before getting hit. Only a jab would catch them before they did a normal roll.

But even if that's not true. You can tech it. And good players will tech it.

It's not a good tech trap. Sorry, but that's the truth.

Now Snake's d-throw is an amazing tech trap.

A2ZOMG · Aug 17, 2008

Emblem Lord said:
And even if you don't tech it you can just hold left or right and you will out of the way before getting hit. Only a jab would catch them before they did a normal roll.

This part is just completely untrue. I know for a fact that lightweights can ALWAYS get hit by the D-smash, F-smash, D-tilt, or F-tilt before they do a normal roll. I've defeated so many Olimars this way. When I grab them near the ledge, they try to DI towards the stage to avoid the D-smash kill, and they just get F-smashed to death because they simply CAN'T roll away in time.

It's the heavyweights like Snake and DDD that can escape the F-smash, D-smash, and maaaybe the F-tilt. However it's also harder for them to tech the throw.

Otherwise point taken. =(

Neb · Aug 17, 2008

Don't Tech- They're punished by pretty much anything from G&W's arsenal.

Tech but don't move- SH dair, fair, bair, nair, judge, or dsmash, fsmash, ftilt, dtilt, chef, Oil Panic or a second grab/pseudo-CG.

Tech and Move- Regrab, Techased DashA, Judge, Fsmash, Bair, Hyphen Usmash, etc.

Get-up Attack- Shield Regrab, Run-away-Run-back Regrab, Sh Aerials, Power-Shielded (or spotdodged) Smashes/tilts/specials.

Even if they have tons of options, G&W two has tons of adaptations.
And they're bound to be punished sooner or later, they can't predict every move.
To say it is a horrible trap, is an exaggeration when G&W can limit his opponent to 4 easily punishable options.

napZzz · Aug 17, 2008

I think when they tech they go to far out of range to be hit by anything though from personal exp. Or at least have time to shield something

Wait now most of that wouldn't even work, if they tech fsmash or dsmash is NOT going to hit them.

And another thing, 90% of the good players I've faced always tech the dthrow and roll away, never get up attack because of how punishable it is.

Like the running usmash doesn't have enough time to reach where they end if you walk or go the right distance since they have time to shield or spot dodge or roll usually by then

And snake has the advantage in the match up! He can kill game and watch at such low %'s and stop bair approach with shield dropped nades. Snake tears up anything lightweight because of how over powered he is basically. Game and watch will have to wait till about 120%+ to kill him when snake can finish him off below 100% usually

Neb · Aug 17, 2008

-NaPPy said:
I think when they tech they go to far out of range to be hit by anything though from personal exp. Or at least have time to shield something

Wait now most of that wouldn't even work, if they tech fsmash or dsmash is NOT going to hit them.

And another thing, 90% of the good players I've faced always tech the dthrow and roll away, never get up attack because of how punishable it is.

Like the running usmash doesn't have enough time to reach where they end if you walk or go the right distance since they have time to shield or spot dodge or roll usually by then

And snake has the advantage in the match up! He can kill game and watch at such low %'s and stop bair approach with shield dropped nades. Snake tears up anything lightweight because of how over powered he is basically. Game and watch will have to wait till about 120%+ to kill him when snake can finish him off below 100% usually

No, some characters can. But not enough to say that its a clear-cut solution to escaping the dthrow.

And I said if they tech, but don't move, you can time your smashes so that they land after the invincibility frames, while a fsmash would touch do to the lazy hitbox. Besides, I gave the penalties to each escape route, I wasn't inquiring that they do it, or react a certain way.

About the Usmash not hitting rollers. Look at some Hylian vids,

.

With Snake, I agree with you on how he can KO G&W early. But its not like Game is going to ever be that close, knowing Snakes tilts. He'll be really campy, and most of all his approaches would be tightly spaced. Even a shield-dropped nade can be avoided with a retreating full-hopped bair. Plus, Snake has worst to worry about than a bair with that sh***y air-game and recovery.

Dj Chopin · Aug 17, 2008

where did all the naysayers come from? its one thing to debate some details, but emblemboy needs to work on his tone before i can even care to read what he's saying. sounds like ur pissed off about losin to a GW. what even brought you here in the first place?

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