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Is there a way out of sheik's tech chase?

Ja

Smash Journeyman
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Greenville, SC. Hit me up for melee
Worst case scenario for this, Sheik v. CF on finalD. Sheik grabs CF and throws. If CF techs sheik reflexes a grab. If CF doesn't tech sheik reflexes a jab then grabs.

Is this escapable, or is this a case where you really need to not get grabbed?
 

Kike_Ichigo

Smash Cadet
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Sep 6, 2007
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Theres only one thing you should do to scape.... MINDGAMES... you must be most Unpredictable... and other advice.... and the better one.... JUST DON GET GRABBED, be more fastest than that Sheiks, DD more, SHFFL more, etc etc etc, that is the Trick I know Its Hard, mi Best Friend and Nemesis plays Sheiks very very well... and I almost lose with him... but when I put all my energy in win... I win xD
 

elvenarrow3000

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You could always counterpick FoD and tech off the low platforms.

=P

Roman, question. When I tech chase with Sheik, I usually dthrow, wavedash back then dash after whichever way they tech with JC grabs. What do you do then? You can't really jab me since I'm out of range, and I can slide in with a JC grab to get you.
 

NES n00b

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Well, Falcon's tech roll is so slow that it will be hard to escape. Even if you don't get grabbed again, a Sheik could dash attack you on time (with slow reaction) if she is facing the right way.

Your only hope is for your opponent to not have good reaction time and not learn you patterns. Cause really, even good reaction time with some vague idea of where falcon is going is easy enough for a Sheik to tech chase.

So make sure you don't get CC space nair, use stomp, or grab. Make sure to watch out for the grab with spacing cause if they are at a position where they can grab, usually they would make that choice to grab. If they start dash attacking, crouch canceling ftilts/dtilts/jabs, and/or fair/nair when they are that close to you, then you will just have to do better to not let your opponent in that zone cause she has way too many options that close. <_< You probably already know this, but don't spot dodge with falcon cause all that would happen is that Sheik would try another grab and she will get it. Either roll (preferably back) or counter attack cause again....his spotdodge sucks.

If you get grabbed, you usually want to DI away (or towards a platform if you can do that), but it is sometimes a good idea to mix up your DI. Cause like I said earlier, Sheik can dash attack you if she is running and facing you very easily and your still pretty screwed then. So sometimes, change it up by not DIing as far away (at the price if your opponent is ready by allowing an easy dash attack, reset jab/ftilt thing) as you can and/or do not tech when you land (again at the price of getting jabbed or dash attacked so usually this tatic works best DIed far away). If Sheik likes to jab reset grab, then predict the (the incredibly stupid 2 frame) jab and counter with a get up attack invincibility attack (invincibility frames). Usually she can just jab you before you can even do the get up attack if you don't tech (cause of the lag from bouncing on the ground =/), so if your opponent is doing that, then tech roll behind her (preferably just because of that stupid dash attack but if she starts baiting/predicting that then mix it up more). These are general guidelines, but the best options are not always the right choice so definitely mix it up. It is also important to know that mixing up your tech rolls doesn't mean doing different ones every time or that is predictable too (it would pretty much be a 2 option guess since not teching/teching can be punished by Sheik, she just needs to know if you are going to be in that location for get up unless she is being more reactive or trying to bait your rolls to see what manipulates your rolls) Does your opponent have a pattern for tech chasing or do they know your pattern? Are they going to tech chase in a more reaction way (which is very possible for Sheik against Falcon if they just do regular techs), baiting way (trying to make you roll, tech, or get up in a certain way by movements or actions), habit way (like doing middle, left, right because of some bad forming habit), or are they just going to guess where you go (guessing that you will do a certain roll by either pure guess or knowing where you will go with no manipulation or despite manipulation)?

To answer your question, if a comp were to play this game, you will probably always get tech chased (I wouldn't think always grabbed but I dunno).

Why did I reply to this, I haven't gave advice in forever why would I do it now?
 

elvenarrow3000

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MikeHaggarTHAKJB: I think he means the jab after you fall on the ground, like Thundering them or using the Mango combo or whatever. It forces you to get up slowly and predictably.

However, if that does happen, I believe (I read this in the Thunders combo thread on Fox boards) you can still roll to a direction if you hold in that direction. I'm not sure if you can get up attack though.

So there's that.

EDIT: NES n00b: A two frame jab isn't that unique. A lot of characters have it (Fox, Sheik, Mario, etc.). I believe Falcon's is a three frame jab.
 

NES n00b

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MikeHaggarTHAKJB: I think he means the jab after you fall on the ground, like Thundering them or using the Mango combo or whatever. It forces you to get up slowly and predictably.

However, if that does happen, I believe (I read this in the Thunders combo thread on Fox boards) you can still roll to a direction if you hold in that direction. I'm not sure if you can get up attack though.

So there's that.

EDIT: NES n00b: A two frame jab isn't that unique. A lot of characters have it (Fox, Sheik, Mario, etc.). I believe Falcon's is a three frame jab.
Only peach and Sheik have it. Fox has three. Not only is it two frame, but so much you can get out of it and good range (for a jab). :(

And yes, you can roll after a thunders' combo unless your opponent hits you when you are bouncing off the ground. So you have to be laying down perfectly still when you get hit to be able to roll out of it but even then wavedash back/dash attacks with Sheik does pretty well to stop this. But it never hurts to try.
 

elvenarrow3000

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From SuperDoodleMan's site:

-- Doctor Mario --
Total: 15
Hit: 2-3
Window of the second punch: 3-25
Second punch starts: 14 (or later)

-- Falco --
Total: 17
Hit: 2-3
IASA: 16
Window of the second punch: 3-31
Second punch starts: 6 (or later)

-- Fox --
Total: 17
Hit: 2-3
IASA: 16
Window of the second punch: 3-31
Second punch starts: 6 (orlater)

-- Luigi --
Total: 15
Hit: 2-3
Window of the second punch: 3-25
Second punch starts: 6 (or later)

-- Mario --
Total: 15
Hit: 2-3
Window of the second punch: 3-25
Second punch starts: 6 (or later)

-- Peach --
Total frames: 19
Hit frames: 2-3

Shield stun: 6
Shield hit lag: 3
Advantage: -14
Slap 2 advantage: -6

Window of the second slap: 3-25
Second slap starts: 10 (or later)
IASA: 16

-- Pichu --
Total: 21
Hit: 2-3

Consecutive head butts start as early
as frame 5

-- Pikachu --
Total: 21
Hit: 2-3

Consecutive head butts start as early
as frame 5

-- Sheik --
Total: 17
Hit: 2-3
IASA: 16
Window for second slice: 3-25
Second slice begins: 10 (or later)

Ness and Kirby weren't listed, but I believe they have fairly fast jabs as well.
 

Eggm

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To roll out of the thunders combo just be hold left/right as you get jabbed. You can even hold A to get up attack from it.
 

aquteen

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You could always counterpick FoD and tech off the low platforms.

=P

Roman, question. When I tech chase with Sheik, I usually dthrow, wavedash back then dash after whichever way they tech with JC grabs. What do you do then? You can't really jab me since I'm out of range, and I can slide in with a JC grab to get you.
I just fought Drephen in a tourney and we randomed FoD and ya it was pretty gay. He basicly did what you just explained and it was imposible to do anything. Now I know there is a huge skill gap between me and drephen (and he is one of the best tech chasers around with shiek) but I am fairly confident that it would not take that good of a shiek to beat me.

Does anyone have any good sugestions of patterns that would throw a shiek player off.
 

elvenarrow3000

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It's not really an issue of pattern, it's just that Falcon's tech is so slow people can just react to it. It's like trying to figure out a pattern to land the Falcon Punch.

Honestly, Sheik is just really good against Falcon. I'd pick a secondary to deal with Sheik. Heck, I main Sheik just to deal with other Sheiks if they counterpick against my Marth.

...also so I have a good character to play when I feel lazy.
 

Devilution

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I ****ing love ****.
Personally what I find works good is to partially behind them so its about inside of them and then normally tech. They either have to pivot grab or jab....or just DD.
 

KirbyKaze

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sheik ***** falcon.

tech chasing is easy.

even if they screw up you probably take 40+ damage.

and it sucks, but oh well.
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
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It is escapable. I am one of the few who had the privilege of being, and endurance to be, tech-chased by M2K's Sheik on infinite time on FD for about 3 hours straight. By the end, this is what I discovered.

One of the most difficult techs Falcon can do for a Sheik to chase is no tech after DIing the throw either away or no DI, and then mash away on both the control stick and the c-stick as you're jabbed. You'll roll away instead of getting up in place. This usually always gets me out of it.

If the Sheik player gets used to that then she'll prob just dthrow wd jab dash jc grab and get you anyways, but that's when you start to mix it up.

Also, DI the throw in and tech behind is a very difficult tech to chase (i.e. full DI behind Sheik). This can also lead to migraines if the Sheik player overprepares to tech chase in this direction and spaces a little bit farther back after the throw. If you notice he's grabbing you with this full behind DI, away and away DI will be impossible to regrab. Dash attack will of course hit you. Gay gay.
 

D.B

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To be honest on FD it's pretty terrible especially if they react fast, I guess all you can do is try to be un predictable.

Sometimes just lying there for a quick second you can see which way the sheik is going to go and you can react to that... doesn't work that often but it can help
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
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M2K's reaction in my experience is on par with Tope's. I'm saying if the Sheik walks closer when you DI behind, that's not on reaction, that's on prediction. If they start doing that then DI away and tech away, and they can only hit you with dashA, so I guess high % DI that in and DI the bair in and you'll be about as good as you can be, at low % cc grab.
 

Magus420

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It's possible for Sheik to jab where you land in case you don't tech, and still techchase grab you by reaction after the jab if they time it to hit the moment you touch the ground, and no matter how you DI the throw or how you tech. However, when you land near the end of the jab's range (like if you DI the throw away), they'll need to boost grab to reach you in time if you techroll away and you have the full room to do so. They could also dash attack then instead of boost grabbing to get you before the techroll ends.

If they do this correctly, your only real chance is to not tech and escape through the jab on landing. If they don't boost grab though you can also DI and tech away then buffer a roll to avoid a grab, and DI/ASDI for a dash attack so you don't lift off the ground from it.

Starting at like 18-20% before the throw, if you DI Sheik's jab up&towards and c-stick up you finish the lay back down animation before you land. If you just hold up without using the c-stick it'll work from like 25% or something. If you manage to SDI the jab upward it'll work even at 0%.

Since you go into the regular falling animation from there if you're still in the air after it ends you'll just land on your feet afterwards and can go into whatever. When you don't complete the lay back down animation before landing from the hit is when you're forced to do a getup when it ends.

Sheik still has a good 4+ frame advantage on you if you land like that, but if they see the jab hit and then wait expecting you to begin doing the invincible getup afterwards then you could roll/grab/jab/fwd-B or something.

You can also instead doublejump right before you land if you time it well which is generally ideal, but harder to do.


I don't really know why, but you don't seem to be able to do the getup rolls/attack in addition to the stand up off Sheik's jab until he's at 42% or more after the jab (around 30% when you get grabbed). If he's at any less than that and you don't finish the lay back down animation before landing following the jab, you'll always do the stand up in place regardless of what you hold/press.
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
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However, when you land near the end of the jab's range (like if you DI the throw away), they'll need to boost grab to reach you in time if you techroll away and you have the full room to do so. They could also dash attack then instead of boost grabbing to get you before the techroll ends.
This is basically what I said. <3 whenever Magus says something that doesn't blatantly contradict me and make me look like an ***.

I don't really know why, but you don't seem to be able to do the getup rolls/attack in addition to the stand up off Sheik's jab until he's at 42% or more after the jab (around 30% when you get grabbed). If he's at any less than that and you don't finish the lay back down animation before landing following the jab, you'll always do the stand up in place regardless of what you hold/press.
Yeah I didn't know that, I figured I was just doing it wrong. That's so annoying, getting up in place is even worse than teching.


Edit: Devilution, your sig and location = priceless.
 

Magus420

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I actually now believe it's realistically possible to simply techchase grab Falcon with Shiek by reaction without the use of the jab at all (in other words no way of escaping if they do it right unless you go offstage or onto a platform or something). Sheik can react to the initial left/right movement of a techroll and boost grab, and if you don't move either way then react to if that was a tech in place and grab, and if it was a missed tech they are also able to react to those options and shieldgrab a getup attack or standup by reacting to a length of stationary getup activity with a shield (the minimum length of time before left/right movement of rolls), or react to a roll from its left/right movement and boost grab.

The pure reaction to the getup attack is really hard to shield in time consistently though when he lands on his back or behind Sheik since it will hit sooner then, but with enough practice it should be possible for some people to do.
 

Hax

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can this thread get deleted lmao

we all need to forget about this convo =)
 

Havokbringer

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Well if your problem is getting grabbed then you either want to SHFFL Nairs (gentlemen the shiek's shield when you come down) or simply grab her yourself.Also learn to create proper spacing with Dash Dancing.
 

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

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not if you do it fast enough. and you can do it fast without the rapid jabs coming out if you hold A after the 3rd button press (look at m2k's thread in the falcon boards)
you can still get grabbed after the 3rd one, though. If you're trying to not get grabbed you don't want to land in front of someones shield in the first place
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
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No, tech chases like Sheik's necessitate a jab to hit CF if he misses a tech, intentionally or otherwise. If Marth can do it, or something similar, none of them have ever attempted it on me. Cactuar/HBK/M2K to name a few.
 

elvenarrow3000

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First jab hits frames three to five. Second jab animation starts frame nine and hits on frame five to seven in its animation.

Since they're shielded and aren't moving, it can be assumed that they get hit on the first hitbox of the first jab, which means there's a gap of nine frames before you can jab again. Grabs come out in seven frames. So yeah.

EDIT: As far as hitlag and shieldstun goes, the formula is:

hitlag = (2 + damage/3) frames ; half of it when crouch cancelled.
shieldstun = (4.45 + damage)/2.235 frames

Which means Falcon's first jab (which does one to two damage, let's assume two) has one frame of hitlag and three frames of shieldstun, which means you can jab as soon as the grab comes out, but since the grab has priority over attacks, you get grabbed.
 

Magus420

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No, tech chases like Sheik's necessitate a jab to hit CF if he misses a tech, intentionally or otherwise. If Marth can do it, or something similar, none of them have ever attempted it on me. Cactuar/HBK/M2K to name a few.
I mentioned before that Sheik doesn't need to jab. Both his tech set of getups and non-tech set of getups can be chased by reaction. In addition to jabbing when he lands then following if he teched or get him on forced getup if they don't tech, you can also just follow if they teched and if he didn't then crouch and wait next to him and chase a roll or shieldgrab a stand or getup attack.

The only iffy thing to react in time to is his face upward getup attack where he spins since it hits in front sooner than the other one which is really easy to shield in time, but you can CC grab his getup attack till over 100 if you don't shield quick enough and it also only does about 5 damage.

I don't know about Marth, but I do know that another Falcon is also fast enough to chase grab Falcon's tech set and non-tech set by reaction the same way when right next to him, but you'd need to get into that position by the time you would react to a techroll which might not always be possible. You don't need to already be next to where they land when they start the techroll, but just be there by the time you would react to one and crouch if they don't start moving left/right after landing for their tech in place or non-tech getups.
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
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I mentioned before that Sheik doesn't need to jab. Both his tech set of getups and non-tech set of getups can be chased by reaction.
I've never seen this happen and personally believe it to be impossible. Reacting to the non-tech roll getup will necessarily be slower than reacting to a techroll b/c you can't predict when it starts, you need to react to that, too.

Edit: Why don't you just store all the fascinatingly amazing Ganon clips in your various sigs and make the most amazing combo video of all time??
 

Razor

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No, tech chases like Sheik's necessitate a jab to hit CF if he misses a tech, intentionally or otherwise. If Marth can do it, or something similar, none of them have ever attempted it on me. Cactuar/HBK/M2K to name a few.
it depends on what you define as "perfect". marth's "jab" with this sword is really slow, but it works. the only problem marth has is that he can't really do anything but grab you or get in a non-tip fsmash.

the best thing about cap's tech chasing IMHO, is his amazing short hop. Fox, sheik, marth, all have good running speeds, but cap's shffl'ed d-airs, knees, can do soo much damage across the stage. Imagine if sheik could shffl her f-air across the stage like captain. she'd be sooo broken.


also, the main reason i wanted to post in this thread is because i wanted to see if people ever noticed captain's weird tech roll. His forward roll is actually longer than his backroll. not only that, there's a slight lag after his forward roll, which makes it a slightly bit slower. that's soooo weird. falco and fox are the opposite. their forward rolls are much faster but a little shorter. their back rolls are really slow but go farther.
 
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