• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

What buffs do you think would make Melee's lower tiers viable?

metaXzero

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 9, 2008
Messages
2,586
Location
Under the ground.
The title? What buffs exactly would you say Low/Bottom tiers would need to prevent their usual act of being ***** by the Highers? In your words (BESIDES MUCH SUPERIOR SKILL)?
 

ADHD

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
7,194
Location
New Jersey
Umm, practice at the matchup and skill? Lol seriously this isn't brawl, tiers don't matter too much in this game. Of course they exist, they're just not captain falcon vs metaknight drastic.
 

metaXzero

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 9, 2008
Messages
2,586
Location
Under the ground.
OK. I guess I'll edit the OP since its confusing people.

What buffs would you give to the lower tiers to make them competitively viable?
 

The 2t

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
168
Location
Sydney
Speaking from experience as a Link main:

Low tiers are perfectly capable of performing in Melee, but you're going to need to be willing to learn the character like the back of your hand and put in some serious effort toward improving and covering up your character's flaws. You'll likely end up feeling like you hit a wall at one point or another when you fight top tiers though, as they have so many more options at any given moment.

Although it's worth pointing out that low tier characters can actually perform quite well because of a "surprise" factor. People aren't going to have as much matchup experience vs a low tier char as they will vs the top 4, while you'll probably have plenty of exp vs their character.

It can work for and against you.
 

Vro

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
1,661
Location
Chicago
I can't believe people don't understand what the OP is asking.

Mewtwo: stronger knockback and priority
Pichu: heavier weight and damage

etc.
 

4Serial

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 28, 2008
Messages
1,237
Location
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Link needs more speed, less lag and to not so easily be combo'd by everyone
needs a less punishable grab, faster tilts, faster jab, less jumping and landing lag,
and someone mentioned for sheik not being able to chaingrab everyone lol
 

Problem2

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 12, 2006
Messages
2,318
Location
Crowley/Fort Worth, TX
NNID
Problem0
Mewtwo: more priority in a lot of his moves and maybe some bigger hitboxes for stuff like d-smash.

Pichu: Idk what you could add that would benefit Pichu without taking the unique elements of Pichu. Pichu was made to be weak, so the only thing I could think of is design him to be able to combo better and maybe have one or two better kill moves.

Bowser: A bigger shield. Flame canceling as well as the aimable flames like in Brawl. stronger tilts so that you have back up killing moves in case you can't land the slow smash attacks. You could make him even heavier in order to improve him while keeping his play style.

Link: Allow his hookshot to grab airborne foes. I dislike that even though the hookshot is overlapping Fox, it doesn't grab him because his feet aren't touching the ground. Also, if they made the aerial hookshot L-cancellable, then that could be used too. Link could also use a faster charging bow.

Y.Link: Same as Link but add Link's Up-B to Y.Link.

Luigi: allow Luigi to move forward during his Up-B to improve his recovery, and give his dash attack more knockback (so that you aren't hit as soon as it stops). Luigi could also use longer fireballs. I mean, Falco's lasers outclass them in every way, why is Luigi limited to a few feet in front of him?

Mario: Make his tornado more like Doc's except launch foes more upwards than horizontally. His fireballs could use some more range too. His f-air could be a little bit faster on the start up, so that he can actually use it more.

Doc: Doc doesn't really need that much of an improvement does he? I think he's just underated. You can speed up his f-air like Mario

Yoshi / Zelda / Ness : Idk, b/c I don't play as them very often. I guess Zelda's Din's Fire range could be a bit larger and more powerful and Yoshi's up-b should gain him some air like in Brawl.

Donkey Kong: DK is another character that I think is underrated. His cargo u-throw, u-air, b-air, and Giant Punch are good moves. They could make his land up-B do more damage and make it similar to Link.

Ganondorf: Give more range for sweet spotting the ledge with up-b and allow him to at least grab the ledge with forward-b. They should also give him a new n-air as it doesn't really fit the slow but powerful ganon. Maybe a single kick would do.

Mr. Game and Watch: Give him the insane priority he has in Brawl. That 'ought to piss everyone off. lol

Samus: Make her grab faster and able to grab aerial foes.

Everyone Else: sorry if I forgot some poor low or mid tier character that was in need of boost, but I did cover a bit.
 

Zodiac

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
3,557
A lot of low tiers characters are low because they have poor priority,a shield that lets attacks through or tiny hit boxes.
 

ArcNatural

Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
Joined
Jul 19, 2006
Messages
2,964
Location
Boston, MA
Although he isn't low tier honestly,

Falcon should be able to sweetspot the edge. There is nothing more funny than as Fox being able to upsmash a Captain Falcon that was falling to his death cause he couldn't reach the ledge anyway.
 

Grunt

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
4,612
Location
Kawaii Hawaii
Everyone Else: sorry if I forgot some poor low or mid tier character that was in need of boost, but I did cover a bit.
Kirby.
But no one gives a **** about Kirby.
Also, Mario's tornado should suck you in like Y.Link's Up-b, and meteor on the last hit.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
Yoshi needs a jump out of shield. And for either his neutral B or grab to be faster. Some way of shield grabbing or grabbing, basically. His current grabs available are bad.

Luigi needs the massive sweetspot (at the edge) his brother got from med school. And for his side+b to share this massive sweetspot. A good recovery, basically. Alternatively, aerial mobility would work.

Pichu either needs to get a flavour change or just magically get better. He's supposed to suck and be weak. I guess a generic change would be that in one of the Melee versions moves that do 0 damage can't be SDIed, which would make his f-smash less horrible. That would be a start. From there just more speed. Much more speed. And more moves that link together.

Pikachu needs to evolve. Or some way of comboing people that actually racks damage and isn't dependent on them being terrible at DI. More range, etc. Everyone's projectile could stand to be faster so why not.

Kirby needs aerial mobility desperately and severely reduced hitstun. Just about every other floaty has good aerial mobility, it's really just Kirbs and Luigi who got screwed out of it. And good god Kirby needs it. From there, a sex kick, and more launchers (u-tilt alone is not sufficient). Throws that don't get him punished (or are ridiculously easy to break out of) would also be necessary (it's depressing that if you d-throw Jiggs she can Rest you before you can shield or do anything).

YLink needs more speed on basically everything; dash, projectiles, attacks, etc. He seems like he's supposed to spam and nair a lot but then he pulls bombs slowly and gets outcamped if he tries to, and then even if he doesn't they just **** him with speed. He needs speed. Making his Dair the fire hit at all times (no sweetspot) would be a good upgrade (and help separate the two Links a bit more).

Roy needs aerials that aren't horrifically laggy and weak and terrible. A less horribly laggy F/D-smash would also be good.

Game & Watch needs a shield that doesn't suck and a sidestep and a roll. Basically defensive options. His attacks are okay for the most part, it's just sort of awful that he gets ***** hard for having a shield that does nothing. Being able to L-cancel all his aerials would also be nice.

Ness needs psychic powers that don't suck. Seriously his specials as a whole are terrible, and his double jump is gimpable, and his Up+B recovery is crap, and he lacks range on everything but basically dash attack, Fair, and F-smash. His U/D-smash need their 64 properties (maybe watered down a bit) and from there just more priority and range in general. Maybe add sparkles to his Nair, etc.

Link's hookshot needs to suck less. Less traction so waveshines are less horrible and so his WD out of shield does more. Pulling projectiles faster would also be good.

Mewtwo needs his tail to be disjointed. And for him to be heavy. A disjointed tail means his tilts and bair/uair are suddenly done using a disjointed hitbox and therefore there's some priority in it. Which is good, because Mewtwo's priority sucks. From there more weight so he doesn't die stupidly fast. More range on Fair would be good too; the hitbox is tiny and dumb - Mewtwo has arms he can reach forward.

Bowser needs less lag on his tilts and aerials. And more dash speed.

Zelda needs more dash speed and less traction so she doesn't get ***** so hard by Fox running around doing lasers and waveshines (or drillshines) into u-smash. Also, a standing grab that doesn't suck and faster tilts.

Samus needs a grab.

Mario and Doc need to grow a few inches in height so their legs stick out more and have more range. Faster projectile would also be good. More grab range.

Falcon needs his recovery to be less terrible and to have more priority in his aerials (or for the hitboxes to just come out faster).

Ganon needs to stick out his arm when he does his grab so he'll actually have grab range. Also a recovery that isn't so terrible.

DK needs a shield.
 

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
3,186
Location
Göteborg, Sweden
Boozer needs to lag less in general. ESPECIALLY his pre-jump lag. He needs a better jump (ie, he should be able to move as fast in the air as he can run, like most characters can). He also needs a better shield. His attacks need to come out a bit faster, he need atleast 1 fast arial (his fastest comes out in 9 frames i think)
I don't see the problem with his dash speed though, I never understood why people complain about it. It's just as fast/slow as falco's.

Roy's tip hits need to have SOME kind of knockback/hitstun so he can utilize his decent range.

Yoshi needs a third ****ing jump. Like seriously, what where they thinking. Sure it has the CCC effect, but if you trade hits with a DJC'ing yoshi somewhat close to the edge=bye bye yoshis stock.

The grab ranges and speed needs to be balanced out. They don't have to be all the same, but something needs to be done to balance things out.
And same thing for rolls and spot dodges. Some characters like CFalcon and Bowser have no use of their spot dodges, cuz their spotdodges lag more then most grabs do. So if you spotdodge a grab (main use of spot dodge) you'll give your opponent a frame advantage, ie a free hit. Very bad.

Zeldas attacks needs to become less di:able. you can seriously asdi out of all of her smashes except dsmash, her nair and theres prolly attacks im forgetting.
She also needs more running speed or a good wd or something to make her move faster.
She needs more attacks then neutral b that come out fast, also
And more moves that dont plain suck, apart from fair and bair and maybe neutral b all her moves pretty much sucks, period. The ones that are "good" (moves that good zelda players use alot) like dsmash and fsmash arent really good, they're just not terrible so they're used.
She needs some kind of combo-ability as well, she has very few launchers and almost nothing that's fast enough for her follow up with from those launchers

to lazy to add more right now

Umm, practice at the matchup and skill? Lol seriously this isn't brawl, tiers don't matter too much in this game. Of course they exist, they're just not captain falcon vs metaknight drastic.
Nobody cares about Brawl.
 

Magus420

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 13, 2003
Messages
4,541
Location
Close to Trenton, NJ Posts: 4,071
Yeah, Bowser needs less jump startup and landlag. They really over did it.

Jump Startup
3 frames ..... 7
4 frames ..... 8
5 frames ..... 7
6 frames ..... 3
7 frames ..... n/a
8 frames ..... 1 (Bowser)

Landing Lag
2 frames ..... 1 (Pichu)
3 frames ..... n/a
4 frames ..... 22
5 frames ..... 2 (DK/Ganon)
6 frames ..... 1 (Bowser)
 

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
3,186
Location
Göteborg, Sweden
It's like the made everything with bowser atleast a few frames slower
iirc, the invincibility of his spot dodge and roll starts later then most other characters (*checks m2ks stats, yup)
his (item) throw is terribly slow
his jab is slower then a dsmash from peach
And like you showed he even has more landing lag, lmao. 6 frames, add one frame to that and youve got the lag of a l canceled nair from fox.
And there's probably more stuff that im forgetting

Sakurai must really hate bowser :(
Atleast he has teh fortress
 

KevinM

TB12 TB12 TB12
BRoomer
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
13,625
Location
Sickboi in the 401
Bowser has 9 frames of lag on his jump LOL.

But the best part is of course is he has the best AIRDODGE IN THE GAME.
 

Keyy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 18, 2008
Messages
120
Location
Belgium
Mario and Doc need to grow a few inches in height so their legs stick out more and have more range. Faster projectile would also be good. More grab range.
Faster projectile for doc, means no more/a lot harder pill chasing. So I don't know about that...
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
What? I don't mean it would move faster. I meant less lag or autocancel or it comes out faster.

I don't want the pill to actually move faster.
 

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
3,186
Location
Göteborg, Sweden
Marios fireballs need to be buffed regardless
I wonder what ninty where thinking when they made dr mario and mario, i mean they made dr mario better in pretty much every aspect. Not different, just better. Apart from mario having a red hat and him lagging less from his arials, dr mario is just BETTER.
Its strange they missed that since theyre clone chars
 

HyugaRicdeau

Baller/Shot-caller
Joined
Jun 4, 2003
Messages
3,883
Location
Portland, OR
Slippi.gg
DRZ#283
It's not really that strange. They are relatively minor changes, and I seriously doubt that any amount of pre-release play-testing could possibly predict that Doc would be "so much better" than Mario given such (again relatively) minute differences. Not to mention they are still pretty close to one another in the tier list.

There are pretty general things you can do to balance characters, I mean, increased weight, bigger shield, more invincibility, bigger hitboxes, and less lag universally make characters better.

Peach and Zelda have arguably better airdodges, because you can FF them 10 frames sooner than all others. Zelda's air dodge can actually make her go higher than her 2nd jump.
 

game set

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
194
Location
Udora, Ontario
Yoshi needs a third ****ing jump. Like seriously, what where they thinking. Sure it has the CCC effect, but if you trade hits with a DJC'ing yoshi somewhat close to the edge=bye bye yoshis stock.
they should make his tounge into a tether.


the main reason I ever play low teirs is because their low teirs, challenges are fun. but a balanced melee would still be fun. fox's laser's should have knockback XD, would make him like mk lol, except completely awesome since this is melee.
 

1048576

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Messages
3,417
Give the bad characters unique traits:

Bowser's Down-B does the damage and knockback of Roy's full charged B attack.

Mewtwo's D-tilt reaes across half of FD

Kirby gains ability buffs from the people he inhales (Falco's lazer goes at Fox's speed, Fox's lazer has hitbox of Samus' charge blast, charge moves are instantly fully charged. Other projectiles can be shot at Fox's lazer speed, etc...)

Ness just needs more range and a longer duration on F-air
 

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
3,186
Location
Göteborg, Sweden
It's not really that strange. They are relatively minor changes, and I seriously doubt that any amount of pre-release play-testing could possibly predict that Doc would be "so much better" than Mario given such (again relatively) minute differences. Not to mention they are still pretty close to one another in the tier list.

There are pretty general things you can do to balance characters, I mean, increased weight, bigger shield, more invincibility, bigger hitboxes, and less lag universally make characters better.

Peach and Zelda have arguably better airdodges, because you can FF them 10 frames sooner than all others. Zelda's air dodge can actually make her go higher than her 2nd jump.
....Except that doc has finishers, and mario doesn't. And a better projectile, a better sheet, better gimpability due to a better bair (they go slightly UP from mario's, and its weak... useless)
They couldnt have missed that. especially that doc actually has finishers

fox's laser's should have knockback XD
ROFL that'd make him like akuma
hed be to broken to be playable, and that'd suck cuz i wouldnt have a unbanned main if that was the case :(
with that speed it'd give fox more range then marth (since you can combo off the lasers)
laser->grab->3 uairs anyone?
 

The Immortal Sir NZ

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
153
Location
San Diego, CA
Make Mewtwo's bones weigh more than a bird's bones.
Give Kirby a little more priority
Give Ness' specials more power
Give Pichu... i don't know, more power on the electric attacks.
 

woopyfrood

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
Messages
1,062
Make Mewtwo heavier AND speedier, but KEEP his floatiness. Make it so people can't attack you while you're using Side B on them, and make it send people away from you a bit...AND make it devastating if you send an opponent off a ledge with it. And lastly, make reflected projectiles hurt enemies.

And done!
 

Joe_Sumo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 11, 2007
Messages
132
Location
Portage WI
I <3 melee more than sex, money, gambling, and fluffy kittens combined but i think the melee staff must have been high when they balanced the characters. you cant see everything first glance but some things are common sense. for example

pichu: "Lets make the lightest character in the game damage itself and make its only finisher take 4 seconds to charge!!"
fox:"i think the fastest character in our game needs an 80% kill move"
marth: "i think the fastest sword user needs the most range and a 40% kill move that is uber fast!! no one will ever spam that im sooo smart!! lets triple his grab range too"

also roy could have been a really cool character if only he had a good recovery and a bit less lag on his ground attacks.
 
Top Bottom