Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

ROOOOY! said:

Volunteering for what? ^^



Which of Zamus' moves are KO moves? I'm not doubting you, I'm just curious because a lot of ZSS mains I know seem to be insistant on killing with the Side B whip.
I have limited knowledge of Zamus, but I thought she was pretty lacking in KO moves too. Other than Side B, I can only think of fair as having killing potential (the second kick, the first one has bad knockback.)
Gimping Sonic isn't really an option here, with the whole Paralyzer Gun to Flip Kick spike deal. It'll only happen if the Sonic makes a mistake.

Anyway, stages?
I still think Battlefield is Sonic's worst stage, but I think he suffers on it against Zamus too. She has attacks with good vertical range, which will pick you out the air and off platforms if you get stranded on them. Again, it limits you to a ground approach, and with ZSS' range on the ground it's not easy. You need to cancel approaches a lot if you're on this stage. On another note, it stops you punishing things like her stun gun with Homing Attack because platforms will get in your way.

Good stages? I'm not sure. I've had a lot of success on Yoshi's Island and Smashville, not too sure why. I'll try playing again Zamus more soon for better stage things and match-up advice in general.

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1) Volunteer to take over the thread until he gets back.

2) KO moves: side-B, U-air, B-air, and sometimes, F-air. Down-B's kick (spike) and 'early' kick (far launching ><; ). Samus (ZSS) has really quick/high jumps, and she can chase you pretty far off/high above the stage and kill you with aerials. If you get stunned, she can jump over you and hit you as you're released from stun with B-air or one of those aerials. ;__;

3) Battlefield is probably one of the WORST levels as Sonic to fight ZSS on. it's so painful, so painful ;__;

I can't give you a best stage, but I'm going to throw Brinstar out there for personal reasons.

I bet you would Tenki I bet you would.


Anyways Side B has some start up so it isn't too hard to avoid.
Uair is somewhat troublesome like her Bair and Fair but they have narrow hitboxes so they aren't extremely difficult to avoid (but they hurt when they hit).

Getting paralyzed should NEVER I repeat NEVER happen.
Or at least rarely.
Down Smash has some start up, neutral B has startup and is broken by your charge and dashes.
I would say 50-50. Sonic has an easier time landing his attacks because of the properties of his attacks. While he doesn't have as much range compared to ZSS he isn't as situational when landing his moves (except for kill moves ).

I played a good ZSS and those were some fun matches.
BF is definitely the worst stage (isn't it always) but I find it somewhat doable since she depends on her aerial game and it can hinder her too.

best is obviously FD.

Battlefield stinks for this match up, lol. And I agree on FD. Its very easy to avoid her projectiles on it, because they're TOO SLOW and the stage is so long. Heck sonic can outrun her paralyzer beam can't he?

Greenstreet said:

SAMUS ARAN - Character Matchup 4

Introduction

Samus Aran is the protagonist of the Metroid series. Samus is the galaxy's most famous bounty hunter, constantly helping the Galactic Federation in their fight against the Space Pirates. She has appeared in all three Super Smash Bros. games to date. Samus has a wide array of both projectiles and physical attacks, which can be used in promising combinations. Samus is heavy-weight and ranks above middle in the speed-class. However, she is tall, which makes her easier to hit. Samus is considered to be easy to use, and with a good use of long- and short-range attacks, she can be deadly.

Behaviour:

-Against sonic samus uses tilts, aerials like landing fair and uncharged shots. Uair is a great follow up to a d-tilt at low percents. Any horizontal hit to samus will result in a MC, slowing down sonic's follow up and often allowing counter approach.

-Samus' game in this MU is to approach sonic to try and shut down his many mix-ups and lightning approach. On the other hand, she has to space well to take advantage of her tilt range.


Commonly Used Moves:
D-tilt: This is one of samus' main ko moves. Will star ko
Dash attack: One of the strongest in the game thanks to that big suit of hers. This wont pose to much of a problem of for Sonic as he is fast enough to space well.
Missiles: Learn to avoid these. We can scoot under these with an ASC, but otherwise we should assume they hurt us (sometimes clanked when stale though
U/Dair: Both are fairly common aerials and can be pretty painful when used right.
Charge Shot: Nuetral B. Will ache our approach. WE can really do much other than avoid it, similar to marios fireballs.

How to Win:

-Zair is weakest against short characters that can close gaps early, because the hitbox is always at the same height as samus, but travels along the beam (ie near the tip). In other words, if you start it at a height where it will hit a short character at a distance, it won't hit them if they are close. You can hold onto it and do a half-zair, but in many cases it is still not possible to hit.

-1. Samus has projectiles: No way!!! Yep, its true, Samus has what, 4 projectiles if you count the two different missiles. This can mean trouble for Sonic, especially in approaching. Sonics Spindashroll gets beaten by everyone of Samus' projectiles, and it's not a clank, it ends up with Sonic damage(even the sd hop). So it makes ground approaches difficult other than shielding your way in or rolling in. Spin shot is an option but I don't think there is as much control afterwards. ASC cancelling could work.

2. I think close range, Sonic is at an advantage. Our grab game is superior and ridiculously annoying and Samus's dmash is pretty slow. (not sure how it compares to ours).

3. With proper spacing there should be no reason that Sonic can't beat Samus in the air. Samus' forward air can be easily punished by a homing attack (itll stop ur motion from gettin in range of it, and punish the lag afterwards. Samus is tall so we can get HIM with a fair from below with a reduced chance of punishment. (as HIS fair comes from the top-down and HIS dair is slow to come out) Our d-air will get beaten by the u-b tho.

4. Sonic cannot be gimped by Samus*. Of course on the odd occassion Samus may pull off a gimp on a Sonic, but it would be because the Sonic made a mistake. And due to Samus' priority on his recovery, itd be very hard to gimp samus as well, about the same difficult if not a little harder than it is to gimp mario. It's a matter of gettin that hunter further away from the stage. THis, in theory, could be achieve by a d-air semi spike or an annoying series of well time and positioned homing attacks or fairs. But its far from consistent.

5. Samus will survive longer. Having said this, Sonic is not lightweight, he is smack bam in the middle.

Recommended Stages:




Matchup Summary: 50:50

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I don't want to sound like a grammar Nazi but you made some mistakes with the "hims" and "his'", Samus is a woman afterall. Anyway to help make looking for it easier I capitalized the words.

Touche mate, and i usually pay people out for calling her a guy. I'm on it. Thanks
EDIT: Fixed it

@ROOOOY! Yea i am going to Samoa at the end of the year for about 6 weeks or so.

We just need to get a bit more behaviour and some moves and we should be set on this one guys. I am thinking nuetral or 55:45 ZSS because we have to play very clumsily and unsmooth compared to how we usually play. Any comment?

We need Commonly Used Moves.
Side B for spacing and KO's.
Neutral B > Grab
Down B to prevent being edgeguarded effectively.
DSmash for stopping Sonic in his tracks if you approach predictably.
Nair as a defensive aerial.
Uair and bair can kill.
U/Dtilt for combo starting.

I think that's everything.
Add moarz if you can think, people!

VB stage spike? That's all I have...

(stun gun to)dash attack to jab combo/up tilt are true combos
sonic can jab break zamus's jab combo, her jab is worse than sonic's
down b has invincibility frames
up b spikes, and if used on the ground against against an opponent it will pop them up back into the spike repeatedly as many times as the zamus player wants
zamus will SH stun gun and side b for spacing
at 0% forward throw can CG many characters, not sure if sonic is included
down air spikes
down air takes forever to end, if she does it over the edge, she will most likely die.
down b is a combo breaker
up smash has rediculous range

You can spring out of her Forward throw chaingrab, even after the first one at 0%.

It's not even a real chain grab o_O

Um... I mean they shouldn't even be trying it. It's possible for almost any character to escape at 0% lol

what the **** lol

Thanks to:
Jeepy Sol: For allowing me to follow his format from the Lucario boards. I really appreciate it and thanks for being a nice bloke about it.

yeah of course he thanked you for it, he took the format from ME lol

Hey Steeler36. THe lucario boards was the first place I saw it. Didnt realise you has originally thought it up. Would it still be fine for the Sonic boards to use it mate?

Also I am thinking disadvantage 60:40 on this matchup guys. Probably start the next 1 soon.

I look forward to the Peach matchup discussion. I'm getting better against Donkey Kong and Snake. Meta Knight I have not played in a while.
However, I have a hard time against Peach.

MARTH - Character Matchup 6



Introduction
Marth is a character in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Marth appears in the game's opening video, standing back to back with Meta Knight. It is uncertain whether Marth has improved since Super Smash Bros. Melee (in which he was considered the second best character on the tier list, and is 3rd best on Brawl's list excluding newcomers), as he has one of the most powerful Final Smashes in the game and his Counter improved, but his standard attack combo is slower, his standard special is harder to hit with, and the range of his sword and grabs is shorter. He is 7th best on the Brawl Tier list, currently at the top of High tier.

Behaviour:

Marth is a faster attacker, with more power, more reach and loads more priority.
Defensive Marth > Offensive Marth, definately so.
You can't really touch a defensive Marth. An offensive Marth, and the lag is more punishable.
-ROOOY!

Most Marths do not recover with shield breaker. The just DI foward, second jump, side B boost, up B. If their close enough they skip the side B boost part.
-Dark Sonic

They up B early because it's better than just taking the hit and dying. They poke you with d-tilt because they have the frame advantage. They bait spotdodges with side B because it hits through it, but with very little risk to themselves. These are things that work, and things that you'll constantly run into when fighting good Marths. Yes, Marths will have different playstyles, but all playstyles are based on Marth's better moves (fair, d-tilt, f-tilt, side B, up B). The different playstyles stem from how much they use these specific moves, and how much they incorporate Marth's other moves (he doesn't really have "bad" moves, it's just that these are better) into their gameplay. You'll fight ground based approachers, airbased approachers, fair campers, d-tilt campers, Marths who use side B extremely aggressively, you name it. But these are the moves that work the best and the ones that you'll run into the most. And it's our job to do our best to deal with these highly effective strategies, and find weaknesses in them (like getting out for free on the third hit of DB with no chance of Marth following up. I believe you can get out for free after the second hit as well, and even roll behind him before he gets out of lag).

Dark Sonic


Commonly Used Moves:

F-smash: Extremely powerful move with a great sweet spot, hits slightly around Marth as well

Nuetral B Don't put your shield in the way of this or you are rooted. It'll bust your shield up something chronic.

Dancing Blade: Learn to DI out of this or avoid it in general. It is very annoying and can even be a reliable KO move.

How to Win:

I played against a Marth recently so I'll tell you what I know.
Marth can be really good at edgeguarding. Even with a spring I would get knocked away with a Fair so be careful when recovering (It starts to get predictable). If your fighting at close range and he's spotdodging, use a dsmash. I can't tell you how many times I've punished a spotdodgey Marth with that dsmash...The counter can be a pest so punish that with a grab if you can (A well timed counter is almost impossible to avoid) In this match, I find that Dsmash, Fsmash, shielding, grabbing, and gimping will be your best friends. Spacing is key to this match, so be on the ball and try to predict his movements and act accordingly. I've been messing around with pivots and they work extremely well against Marth. If he approaches with a shorthop fair, go for a backward foxtrot-turnaround fsmash. It works like a charm.

-Camalange

his ledge get up attack is horrible. you can just stand outside of its range and fsmash him, its has seriously low range and enough lag to hit him easily. you dont even need to predict it, so if he rolls onto the stage you can easily grab him. his best option is to ledgehop a f-air which although hard to punish, can become predictable.

bait his aerials. his bair and dair have pretty bad lag and you can just stay outside their range and finish him off with a bair of your own once marth attacks.

edgeguard him... dont let him get back on the stage without taking at least a ledge attack in the process. its soooo easy to time an edgehog to his upb, i he lands above you hes going to take a get up attack or a uair. if you misstime it this leaves marth on the edge. drop springs on his head.

djbrowny

as far as i can tell this match is about baiting, you need to know what he wants to do, so you can counter it.
be really agressive, so as to bait a counter, and than grab.
weave in and out of forward air range, and counter it with HA if in the air or SH fair if you are on the ground.
Shield grab all forwards: Falling air, tilt, b, and smash.
whenever you hit marth across the stage at a low angle (i.e. SC to jump to back air at 30%, follow up with running up smash, i believe it beats his airials if done early enough.
da K.I.D.

Recommended Stages:

Castle Siege- This is a great stage as it gives Sonic the option of so many angles to attack, but at the same time, removing the pressure game that Marth's often rely on.

Lylat Cruise This level has always given Sonic the advantage and for some reasons Marths, dont seem to like it + added chance if gimping their recovery


Matchup Summary: 30: 70 or 25:75 Marths Favour

Oh Marth, the one with a long range in terms of close-range combat, a long grab, and a really good fair right? =O
His shield breaker is a pain if hit, but it's easy to dodge.
His side-B though, hmmm. Comes out fast, good range, and the down/green version of it eats your shield. >_<
His Up-B is a pretty good recovery if used right and could stage spike you if your in the way, but it doesn't have that long of a horizontal range. But he'll just f-air back toward the stage...
Um, let's see... His grab is longer than ours(right?) so that might limit our grab game. His Down-B means you should NOT use predictable approaches(like always) and don't be predictable(like always) or else it'll smack you.
Yeah, that's all my limited knowledge has to offer... I bet half this stuff is wrong, but w/e. Off to uh... watching red leaves. >_<

* Marth:
~UpB from shied start with a jab, If he shields grab him
~B> to B can be dodged though
~Deadly if he spaces well, get inside his defences but beware of his grabs
~They'll walk away forward smash you
~Down tilt you at ledges
~Will try to out prioritise you out of your spin dashes
~Beware of getting staged spiked by his upB when edgehogging him
~They use B> and B to recover, that's where you gimp them
~Light so killing isn't that much of a problem


Oh and I think ZSS Vs Sonic is 50:50

Marth es no bueno (sorry, bad spanish)
BEWARE OF GETTING TIPPED

Be wary of overusing spin dash, as Marth players will counter them and dish out damage. If you do a dash attack, however, and Marth counters, then Sonic will just go past Marth and won't take any damage.

Also, beware of getting grabbed early. Marth can deal out 25% damage in one swift move by doing bthrow to fsmash, which puts you in an early hole

I believe the key here is to be patient and have good spacing. His aerials (along with most of his attacks) come out very fast, so shielding is important. However, some of his attacks have a decent amount of lag after they are executed (neutral B, side B, fsmash are example). That is the time where you can be the most aggressive and set up a chain of attacks, getting as much damage as you can. Marth can be gimped easily, so go for it if you have the chance, as Sonic players will need any advantage they can get

That being said....this is the beginning of the death section and this is Marth. I'm gonna go 65:35 advantage to Marth

CUsmasher2011 said:

deal out 25% damage in one swift move by doing bthrow to fsmash, which puts you in an early hole

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I used to think that too. its extremely easy to predict and will be powershielded every time. unless of course the people i play against are all amazingly bad, i seem to be able to PS this every time. That said, i dont exactly play against pro marth users often. but the ones i do rarely give me any trouble. anyway for marths weaknesses

his ledge get up attack is horrible. you can just stand outside of its range and fsmash him, its has seriously low range and enough lag to hit him easily. you dont even need to predict it, so if he rolls onto the stage you can easily grab him. his best option is to ledgehop a f-air which although hard to punish, can become predictable.

bait his aerials. his bair and dair have pretty bad lag and you can just stay outside their range and finish him off with a bair of your own once marth attacks.

edgeguard him... dont let him get back on the stage without taking at least a ledge attack in the process. its soooo easy to time an edgehog to his upb, i he lands above you hes going to take a get up attack or a uair. if you misstime it this leaves marth on the edge. drop springs on his head.

i have one of my vids vs a marth user. it was on wifi and quite a long time ago but i think it shows aggressive edgeguarding vs marth pretty well
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lq6wc_1NvPs

Marth is a faster attacker, with more power, more reach and loads more priority. This is really why it's 35:65/30:70.
Using tilts is really important in this match-up, because most Marth's will underestimate Sonic's spacing ability. However if he starts SH fairing you, you're screwed, because none of Sonic's tilts could beat that out.
Ehh, I'll try play a Marth this evening because I haven't played one in a while. I just remember it being pretty bad last time.

Marf is a solid 65:35.

Question:
Marth does SH F-air>F-air>F-smash

?

Shield grab the first one, then Up throw and attack him from underneath where he's vunerable.

?

Oh I'm sorry, I meant retreating aerials.

Well, he won't fsmash unless you're in range, will he? A random fsmash just thrown out there is begging for punishment.
And retreating aerials are a problem. How the balls do you approach a Marth?

Also, Spincharge clanks with dtilt. Ftilt comes out quick enough from that for a nice 11% ;]

Teh Umby said:

Marf is a solid 65:35.

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So Marth can still do the Ken combo right?

Sorry for being off topic but where do you get those Pokemon things from?

ROOOOY! said:

Well, he won't fsmash unless you're in range, will he? A random fsmash just thrown out there is begging for punishment.

Click to expand...

His f-smash outranges your grab. And he shouldn't be f-smashing unless you are in some kind of lag (or he thinks he can intercept your approach or something) You will not be shield grabbing a decent Marth.

ROOOOY! said:

And retreating aerials are a problem. How the balls do you approach a Marth?

Click to expand...

Well really, you try not to. His defensive game is just amazing, but his approach game (while still very troublesome) is not nearly as strong.

ROOOOY! said:

Also, Spincharge clanks with dtilt. Ftilt comes out quick enough from that for a nice 11% ;]

Click to expand...

Why would he d-tilt? Side B, counter, f-tilt, and up B are all better options in this scenerio.

Basically the match consists of weaving in and out of his range to bait attacks, then punishing for a little bit of damage, and repeating until you can get Marth off the stage. Anything that Marth shields will be punished with an up B or side B (even dash attack, as he can just turn around and side B. Edgeguarding good Marths is quite difficult too, but still feasible with spring gimps and dair psuedo spikes. Though for my kills I typically rely on a fresh f-smash after he misses a fair, or an off the top KO with a uair (since most Marths are very hesitant to dair you, and for good reason.)

Chis said:

So Marth can still do the Ken combo right?

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It's not a true combo and is rarely attempted. Footstool to dair is a true combo however (won't be affecting this matchup much though).

Wow, I am really, really suprised at how disadvantageous people find this machup. I can see it being sligghtly in marths advantage... but I wouldn't go past 60:40. I'll write up something later. There are much worse match-ups imo

A marth that foxtrot smashes is deadly for Sonic. I believe M2K made a combo that works on everyone with marth...

U can use past matches for this match up Lucky vids are still there on youtube, where he played marth player Danimals who was pretty good.

Genuine question. What do you think is the best way to approach an aerial based Marth?
From the front seems a little silly.
Not from above because dair sucks.
Spinshot behind him -> bair?

Quick update: If nothing has been updated in a while its because I have 50 0000 assignment due in less than a second for the next 5 million years.
Will get onto updating and making every matchup so far more readible comprehensible and succinct. Until then wish me luck in the 100000000000000 assignments I missed doing while typing this post.

ROOOOY! said:

Genuine question. What do you think is the best way to approach an aerial based Marth?
From the front seems a little silly.
Not from above because dair sucks.
Spinshot behind him -> bair?

Click to expand...

The best way to approach him with Sonic could be by mind games not by spin charge bair but spindash cancel roll behind him w/e u see fit to doin

Or dash> shield slide into grabbing range

Basically against any marth u must Space ur self and react to his attemps to space himself.

Good luck. XD


Marth isn't a problem unless he starts the SHfairs. Then all you CAN do is work your *** off to space properly. The retreating Fairs are especially annoying and leaves little room for punishment.


What about just rolling back to mess with his spacing. When he has to actually APPROACH it should get harder to be "safe" with his attacks.

I had some luck running up and SideB cancel to a back roll.

Defensive Marth > Offensive Marth, definately so.
You can't really touch a defensive Marth. An offensive Marth, and the lag is more punishable.

On a different note, Marth sucks at edge guarding against Sonic.
Marth will never ever ever gimp Sonic. Seriously, if you get gimped by a Marth, quit Brawl and life immediately. He's going to be fairing offstage, and it's only use here is to rack up damage. You've got more than one safe recovery option. Use them in variation and avoid the fairs.

Can Sonic gimp a Marth very easily? We know here that Marth's recovery sucks, but can Sonic do anything to Marth offstage?

yea spincharge cancel, it mind games them into spotdoging or shielding or countering. But u cant use it all the time. Only problem I see is a foxtroting marth thats good at it.

Of course Sonic can gimp marth lol

Sonic can annoy marth into using upb while Sonic is invulnerable edge hugging go look at Luckys videos on youtube vs danimals a marth player. Lucky annoys the shiz outta him from recovering.

Spring is the besst option since his ^B is rather dangerous,

Agreed on the spring part, because it's safe.
However, isn't a Marth just going to uair the spring and destroy it?