Forcing a ground break

This post is going to operate on one theory throughout, and that's that the grab attacks that count as one move in the stale moves queue can prevent the foe from ever doing a jump break. My speculation for the mechanics is that you are hitting them while they are still in hitstun with the grab attacks, forming a "true combo". I have a general theory that a move that forms a true combo with itself will only ever count as one in the stale moves queue, but to my knowledge that only applies to rapid jab sequences and grab attacks.

Anyway, I've compiled a list of which characters, when attacking at maximum speed, have their grab attacks only count as one move in the stale moves queue. My assumption is that all of them can force a ground break which is tactically very useful as you can get a free hit against at the very least Ness and Lucas and probably several more characters if you know for sure they are ground breaking. If nothing else, it makes what they are going to do predictable.

Forces ground break:

Donkey Kong, Link, Toon Link, Samus, Zero Suit Samus, Ice Climbers, Kirby, King Dedede, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Captain Falcon, Pikachu, Charizard, Lucario, Jigglypuff, Marth, Ness, Lucas, Sonic


Does not force ground break:

Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Wario, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf, R.O.B., Meta Knight, Olimar (red, yellow, purple, probably the others), Squirtle, Ike, Mr. Game & Watch, Snake

N/A:

Yoshi

Unsure:

Diddy Kong, Pit, Ivysaur

Diddy Kong, Pit, and Ivysaur are very weird. My tests show their attacks doing 1% less damage than fresh damage after the enemy breaks the grab. This suggests they have not fully replenished their stale moves but have come close. I do not know how this interacts with jump breaks; these three characters were an anomaly in my testing.

A secondary use of this research involves using grab attacks for the purpose of resetting stale moves. If you are using characters who force a ground break, you should intentionally mash sub-optimally so it will count as multiple moves. If you are using the characters from the can't ground break or unsure groups, mash away. I don't know about Yoshi; I have never witnessed a ground break from him (it seems impossible) so I didn't include him in my testing.

Do remember that I did this testing by myself with a non-turbo controller. It's possible I made mistakes. Also, this is especially relevant for King Dedede but could apply to others. If they break the grab before you hit with a single grab attack, you obviously can't force a ground break.

Actually, ZSS and Falcon will do a Jump Break if the character is small enough. I think Marth too.

Also Yoshi will never Release to the ground. It happened a few times though, but I'm not sure if there's some sort of trick. It just happens randomly and very rarely

The topic here is about whether they can force a ground break. It's not claiming that you never get jump breaks from these characters (you can if the character is held above the ground and the opponent mashes suboptimally, allowing you to break out between two pummels... but this isn't possible if the ones in the "forces ground break" group mash optimally, hence the point of the topic).

Hmm, very interesting theories/research. As I'm sure you know, it will be difficult to know what's going on in some cases because moves can do fractional damage, eg. less than 1% so it might not show up.

The response to this thread was disappointing...

Anyway, it was easy in most cases to tell what was going on. What I did was start a match in versus mode against a human Ganondorf (who was actually not under anyone's control) and used a single move to rack him up to over 100% damage. I then grabbed and did 9 or more grab attacks by mashing A or Z (usually A) as quickly as I could. If the damage was close to the lowest point of stale damage, the character could force a ground break. If it was fresh, the character could not. Diddy Kong, Ivysaur, and Pit were the only three cases where the results didn't quite work out right; I don't know how to explain them (I could pose several guesses, but they would really just be guesses). In the interest of disclosure about all methods, I will reveal that for my tests Lucario was at 0% with an even stock count and Nana was dead for the Ice Climbers.

Also, I discovered a few fun facts while testing. Luigi and Donkey Kong (and other characters probably) can force a trip with their forward tilts; it's just unlikely. Diddy Kong's forward tilt has two parts to it; fresh it does 9% at close range and 11% at long range (my data was all over the place with Diddy Kong until I figured this out!). Peach moves forward if you do her down tilt over and over again quickly but not if you do it slowly.