Is a hitlag reduced when a move becomes "stale"?

MikeHaggarTHAKJB · Sep 27, 2008

As many of you know: When you use an attack over and over its damage~~, knockback and hitstun~~ is decreased. The move becomes "stale"
EDIT: Apparently I was wrong about hitstun and knockback being decreased, only damage is decreased. Look at witchking of angmar's post for more info.

My question is, is the amount of hitlag frames for a move reduced when that move becomes stale?
It seems so to me, but I am not 100% since I don't have AR and therefore I can't test.

I would be very happy if someone with AR could test this.
But any response would be appreciated. Thanks.

And you're all really gay if noone responds.

CDCP · Sep 27, 2008

i dont have AR
but i would have to guess not

only because hitlag depends on the other character
damage, knockback and hitstun dont

red stone · Sep 27, 2008

in melee, neither hitstun nor knockback is affected by the stale effect. only damage

Pink Reaper · Sep 27, 2008

red stone said:
in melee, neither hitstun nor knockback is affected by the stale effect. only damage

Wrong, knockback is effected by stale moves in melee, its just not noticeable. The only way you would ever actually see it would be to have two of the exact same characters at the exact same damage standing on the exact same spot. Hit one with a smash then hit the second with the same smash. The second would not go as far as the first. Melee decay is much weaker than Brawl decay in that even at minimum power most attacks never lose more than 10% of their knockback.

NOW · Sep 27, 2008

That would be too good for the spamming noobs :/

Nintendude · Sep 27, 2008

YES, hitlag is reduced on stale moves. Some strategies on Home-Run Contest are ONLY possible due to decreased hitlag. It has also been used to shave off several frames in BtT strats.

MikeHaggarTHAKJB · Sep 28, 2008

^^Ok, do you perhaps know how much the hitlag is reduced? (or any more info in general would be appreciated)
EDIT: Actually I found the answer from one of Scotu's frame threads (thnx scotu!). There's a formula for the amount of hitlag given for attacks:

hitlag = (2 + damage/3) frames ; half of it when crouch cancelled.
shieldstun = (4.45 + damage)/2.235 frames

So the if the damage is reduced, so is the hitlag. So I was right about this and now Ive got the full answer, awesome

BTW did I mention how much this **** has destroyed my shffl timing? Ive been practicing shffling various attacks against hitlag for hours.... So that the move ive been practicing becomes stale so that the hitlag is less, so my timing is way to early as it is now. Super gay.

Witchking_of_Angmar · Sep 28, 2008

Since Mike kind of answered his own question, I think I'll just clarify the "stale" moves part a bit. The only effect "stale moves" has in Melee is damage. However, since damageis calculated after knockback, it may appear that the knockback is also reduced. Most of the time, %'s indicating combos and kill moves are referring to the damage before the move, so you may find that if you spam the **** out of that usmash it may KO 3% or so later than you read in SWF.

tl;dr :

-stale move applies only to damage
-knockback is calculated after damage
-you get the impression that it mildly affects knockback

MikeHaggarTHAKJB · Sep 28, 2008

^^Oh, I see. Thanks for clearing that up.

slartibartfast42 · Sep 28, 2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6OgCDwvLO8

Just thought I'd throw that out there, even though the answer has already been given.

Witchking_of_Angmar said:
since damageis calculated after knockback, it may appear that the knockback is also reduced.

:/

I am confused, wouldn't damage have to be calculated before knockback for damage reduction to reduce knockback? I just have a feeling you may have misspoke... If not, I really don't get it.

2.72 · Sep 28, 2008

I'm pretty sure that he just misspoke. Look at the tl;dr section of his post:

-stale move applies only to damage
-knockback is calculated after damage
-you get the impression that it mildly affects knockback

Grunt · Sep 28, 2008

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=UNnKJFnujX0
either stale moves effect knockback, or this guy is god.

MikeHaggarTHAKJB · Sep 28, 2008

^He crouch canceled.

Pink Reaper · Sep 28, 2008

Grunt said:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=UNnKJFnujX0
either stale moves effect knockback, or this guy is god.

MikeHaggarTHAKJB said:
^He crouch canceled.

Actually its both. The second hit had decay on it which is why he didn't go nearly as far the second time.

Magus420 · Sep 28, 2008

That video of Phanna's is incorrect and misleading. Since knockback is calculated after the damage from the attack, those two examples in the video are not comparable. One is essentially a f-smash at 59% and the other is a f-smash at 48%.

With that exact same setup, but instead having the stale one at 46% before the hit so that both ending damages are the same with 59%, then the knockbacks will be equal.

This is true for the vast majority of attacks in Melee, and as long as the total damages are equal the move's knockback will be the same regardless of how stale it is.

However, there are a few moves that actually DO have the true reduction in base knockback in addition to the reduced damage much like the system in Brawl. I'm pretty sure it's limited to just projectiles, as the only ones I can think of that I've looked at are Samus' Missiles/Charge Shot (Massive Australian DI!), and Sheik's Needles/Up-B (yes, the explosion is treated as a projectile).

And yeah, stale attacks do less damage and so they also have less hitlag and shield stun.

As for the SHFFL timing, you should learn to do the l-cancel as the hitbox would come out and make contact with them so that you'd do it during hitlag. This is especially important for high hitlag attacks like Ganon's d-air since if you press it before the hitlag you will miss the l-cancel.

Timing it for the very start of the hitlag is important when the hitbox comes out a frame or 2 before you would land in case it unexpectedly whiffs completely. Before getting in the habit of trying to time it on the first frame of the hitbox/within range, I would almost always miss l-cancels on very low stomps when they'd sidestep just as it comes out, since l-cancelling on what was expected to be say frame 4 of hitlag is instead already after you landed.

Mario & Sonic Guy · Sep 28, 2008

It's pretty difficult to notice the stale moves effect in Melee apart from the lowered damage. Of course, the reduced damage may play a role on how strong the attack's knockback is as well.

MikeHaggarTHAKJB · Sep 29, 2008

Magus420 said:
That video of Phanna's is incorrect and misleading. Since knockback is calculated after the damage from the attack, those two examples in the video are not comparable. One is essentially a f-smash at 59% and the other is a f-smash at 48%.

With that exact same setup, but instead having the stale one at 46% before the hit so that both ending damages are the same with 59%, then the knockbacks will be equal.

This is true for the vast majority of attacks in Melee, and as long as the total damages are equal the move's knockback will be the same regardless of how stale it is.

However, there are a few moves that actually DO have the true reduction in base knockback in addition to the reduced damage much like the system in Brawl. I'm pretty sure it's limited to just projectiles, as the only ones I can think of that I've looked at are Samus' Missiles/Charge Shot (Massive Australian DI!), and Sheik's Needles/Up-B (yes, the explosion is treated as a projectile).

And yeah, stale attacks do less damage and so they also have less hitlag and shield stun.

As for the SHFFL timing, you should learn to do the l-cancel as the hitbox would come out and make contact with them so that you'd do it during hitlag. This is especially important for high hitlag attacks like Ganon's d-air since if you press it before the hitlag you will miss the l-cancel.

Timing it for the very start of the hitlag is important when the hitbox comes out a frame or 2 before you would land in case it unexpectedly whiffs completely. Before getting in the habit of trying to time it on the first frame of the hitbox/within range, I would almost always miss l-cancels on very low stomps when they'd sidestep just as it comes out, since l-cancelling on what was expected to be say frame 4 of hitlag is instead already after you landed.

Yhea, thanks for confirming this.
The type of shffl timing that this has been destroying for me is when you fast fall and L cancel after the hitlag, like when you shffl fox's nair. Atleast thats how I do it: SH, nair, hit someone (hopefully) fast fall ASAP after hitlag, L cancel (as late as possible). If I dont hit somebody I would time it as if the hitlag was there anyway
Problem is that ASAP after hitlag is to soon unless the move is stale, b/c when ive been practicing this the move has become stale.
I just gotta learn the timing for a non stale nair

Is a hitlag reduced when a move becomes "stale"?

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

Smash Master

CDCP

Smash Apprentice

red stone

Smash Ace

Pink Reaper

Real Name No Gimmicks

NOW

Smash Cadet

Nintendude

Smash Hero

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

Smash Master

Witchking_of_Angmar

Smash Lord

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

Smash Master

slartibartfast42

Smash Lord

2.72

Smash Ace

Grunt

Smash Master

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

Smash Master

Pink Reaper

Real Name No Gimmicks

Magus420

Smash Master

Mario & Sonic Guy

Old rivalries live on!

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

Smash Master

Information

Network