The New Official Kirby Matchup Rankings AND GUIDE Thread! :: OMGOMGOMG! We're done!

From the beginning Kirby's matchups looked around average. They went up and up and up, and now it seems as if they're falling back down. This isn't normal. Any reason why this is happening?

And yes- add Sheik/Zelda please.

DanGR said:

From the beginning Kirby's matchups looked around average. They went up and up and up, and now it seems as if they're falling back down. This isn't normal. Any reason why this is happening?

Click to expand...

Dunno. And Im sure that not all of these changes will become official...but many will

And yes- add Sheik/Zelda please.

Click to expand...

That's set in stone. We just need to decide the ranking. 60-40 sounds good.

what do you guys think of the matchup with olimar. i think its easily in kirbys favor. but idk how much.
because oli's weaknesses are what kirby specializes in. eadgeguarding, eadgehogging. if olimar throws pikmens at you it doesnt matter where they land bair will always get them off no matter what. if kirby spikes oli hes screwed. and his lightness makes him easy to ko with all smashes.

on the other hand. oli can take advantage of kirbys lightness with a well placed upsmash(dooshbag priority) down b can make him difficult to kill. and his many high priority moves make it difficult to approach(kirby already has an approach problem) and olis insane rang gives him a lot of options.

Allow me to take a step back to re-discuss Marth.

I been messing with Kirby more lately and I was reminded of a few things. For one thing, Kirby isn't Jiggz. He actually has good options. So if Marth is zoning there are a few things he can do.

Bair
Final Cutter
F-smash

Bair is very safe and seems to be disjointed. It has less range then Marth's fair, but only by a tiny bit. It's a solid option to poke at Marth and attempt to penetrate his zoning.

Final Cutter sends out an energy wave that Marth must deal with. When spammed Marth will just close in and dodge the wave then slice Kirby to ribbons. But when used sparingly it can be a good disrupter for messing up Marth's rhythm.

Kirby's f-smash has really good reach to it since he lunges forward. It outranges all of Marth's moves aside from Shieldbreaker. It can't be spammed, but it's nice to throw out every once and awhile as disrupter just like Final Cutter.

Another thing is that Kirby has good grab range. It's deceptive, but he tends to get shield grabs really easily unless his opponents space perfectly. So Kirby can get in some chip damage here and there.

Now..does this mean Kirby has no trouble with Marth's zoning? Of course not. This is still Marth's fight. Marth has more mobility and ground speed. He has the overall range advantage and is a safer pressure character with better pokes. He has better punishment options and has the tools to take control of the match.

But Kirby DOES have answers, which keeps it from being a **** match and Kirby is also a good gimper/edgeguarder.

So when I look at all the options each character possesses I feel pretty comfortable with 60/40 Marth.


To Sheermadness: You may not respect theory, but in truth theory is the basis of all human knowledge and understanding. Everything begins with theory. I know it can be frustrating when you think that someone doesn't know what they are talking about, but always try to respect other people's point of view if they present you with valid arguments. If you feel like you can't explain your position that well, then just say so. No one will think less of you. Some people just aren't good at using words to explain themselves or maybe you feel like words won't do your argument justice. That's fine too. But always keep an open mind and don't disregard someone just because of join date or because they didn't play Melee. Melee is not the end all be all competitive fighter. You can understand fighters and Brawl too without ever touching Melee.

Food for thought.

Dryn said:

You're ignorant on the matter. I made a thread yesterday regarding match-up numbers and why we even have them. So far, I've been told that they're arbitrary, so really, what's the point of having match-up numbers if they're arbitrary? So, what I plan on doing is studying every character in the game. One example is PKNintendo's thread, which is about a tier list for recoveries. My plan is to figure out who has the most KO potential, who has better recovery, better range, &c. So, until then, you're more than welcome to put up arbitrary numbers, try out my method, or have character A and B fight in one-hundred matches to determine the amount of percent each character wins in each match. If you didn't know, numbers like 60-40 simply represent percent. A, for example, will win 60% of the time, while B will win 40% of the time.

Click to expand...

You can study all the information you want, but if you don't apply it to the individual matchups then it doesn't matter at all. You can find that MK has the best recovery, and that Marth's is sub par, but that doesn't help you if you keep getting stagespiked by dolphin slash anyway, or keep getting interupted by fairs while you're trying to edgeguard him (both of which have ways around them btw. But if you don't study them through matchup analysis, then they may be overlooked).

The numbers are used to represent how severe an advantage is. 40:60 is easier to deal with than 30:70 and so on. If you don't like your character's ratio in a matchup, you find reasons why the numbers do not fit the matchup and get it changed. You don't just say "I don't think Kirby vs Marth is 60:40 Marth's favor," you have to give reasons why you believe that's not so. And of course the other side will likely oppose that change, and argue with you, but if your reasons are true then they will survive the debate and the matchup will be changed. In case you didn't notice, Emblem Lord actually went back and revisited the Kirby matchup, and changed the ratio more towards Kirby's favor, because different aspects of the matchup were highlited that suggest that the matchup isn't as one sided as the ratio listing it was.

dark sonic owns with his logic

Emblem Lord said:

Kirby's f-smash has really good reach to it since he lunges forward. It outranges all of Marth's moves aside from Shieldbreaker.

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I honestly had absolutely no idea that Kirby's F-smash outranges Marth's.

If EL doesn't disagree with regular disadvantage, then I suppose we're good. Now all we have to do is convince the Marth boards to change the rating

MK26 said:

Large Advantage (70-30):
Bowser
Captain Falcon (Change to 60-40?)
Fox
Ike (Change to 60-40?)
Ivysaur (Change to 60-40?)
Link

Advantage (60-40):
Charizard
Diddy Kong
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
Olimar
Shiek
Sonic
Toon Link (Change to 55-45?)
Wolf (Change to 50-50?)
(Add Sheik/Zelda?)

Small Advantage (55-45):
Falco
King Dedede
Luigi
Zero Suit Samus

Neutral (50-50):
Donkey Kong
Lucas (Change to 60-40?)
Ness
Peach
Pikachu
Squirtle
Yoshi

Small Disadvantage (45-55):
Lucario
Mario
Meta Knight (Change to 40-60?)
Pit
Wario

Disadvantage (40-60):
Mr. Game&Watch
Ice Climbers
R.O.B.
Samus (Change to 55-45?)
Snake
Zelda

Slight Large Disadvantage (35-65):
Marth (Change to 40-60?)

Click to expand...

Reposting for lack of acknowledgement (with a few edits; now its more realistic and closer to the final edit). I would have thought somebody would post their opinion on this by now...

Also, any opinions on abolishing "Slight Advantage" and "Slight Disadvantage" and putting all 55-45 to 45-55 matchups as neutral?

I was actually going to come back here and post my thoughts again, but looks like EL covered it.

I put it to 60:40 Marth.

DanGR said:

From the beginning Kirby's matchups looked around average. They went up and up and up, and now it seems as if they're falling back down. This isn't normal. Any reason why this is happening?

And yes- add Sheik/Zelda please.

Click to expand...

Because as time goes on Kirby players find way to adapt to certain opponents evening out bad matchups and increasing the advantage in others. Kirby is a very versatile character.

Anybody...opinion on the possible changes?

Kirby versus Mario Match-up.

Hello, Kirby mains.

We are currently doing Kirby for our weekly character discussion thread, and all information is helpful for both your's and our character match-up threads.

Here is the link;
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174907

Happy posting.

MK26 said:

Large Advantage (70-30):
Bowser - A good Bowser is so much harder than you'd think. I'd put it at 65:35 or even 60:40
Captain Falcon (Change to 60-40?) -why? O_o
Fox - I have a hell of a lot harder time with Fox than Falco, but maybe that's because he's too fast on wifi, you know?
Ike (Change to 60-40?) - yes, change to 60-40.
Ivysaur (Change to 60-40?) -lolivysaur...I dunno. So easy for me..but maybe I've never seen a good one
Link -hmm...he's got projectiles and a sword, but you can kill him at 0% by spitting him under most stages. I dunno.

Advantage (60-40):
Charizard
Diddy Kong (Change to 55-45?) -I dunno. 60-40 seems good
Ganondorf -I find Ganondorf even easier than Captain Falcon.
Jigglypuff
Olimar -DIAF OLIMAR!
Shiek -Why do people spell it "Shiek?"
Sonic -the Sonic boards discussed in depth, I think 60-40 is right, though they haven't decided
Toon Link (Change to 55-45?) -change to 50-50 imo (I main Kirby and second Toon Link so I know both characters quite well)
Wolf (Change to 50-50?) -I dunno. Wolf boards think it's 50-50, and Kirbys seem to agree, but I think I only lose to Wolfs because Wolf + Spam + wifi = OMFG.
(Add Sheik/Zelda?)

Small Advantage (55-45):
Falco
King Dedede
Luigi
Zero Suit Samus

Neutral (50-50):
Donkey Kong (Change to 55-45?)-nah, leave it at 50-50
Lucas (Change to 60-40?) -hmm...
Ness -hmm...
Peach -I hate Peach, I would almost put it at an advantage for her, if it wasn't for the fact that she lacks good KO moves, and it would be hard to land those offline
Pikachu -This needs to be discussed imo
Squirtle
Yoshi -This needs to be discussed imo

Small Disadvantage (45-55):
Lucario -agreed.
Mario -What? ... What? Mario has an advantage over Kirby? I don't think so, 60-40 Kirby, unless you can give me a good reason O_O
Meta Knight (Change to 40-60?) -Kirby pwns Meta Knight <3 (get it, 45-55 is considered "pwning" for meta knight because he's so broken)
Pit -discuss
Wario (Change to 40-60?) -discuss

Disadvantage (40-60):
Mr. Game&Watch (Change to 35-65?) -Discuss, I would put this at neutral
Ice Climbers -Ice Climbers would be 100-0 over everyone if matchups were honest
R.O.B. -seems about right, I'd put it at 45-55
Samus (Change to 55-45?) -55-45 sounds like a good spot for now
Snake (Change to 35-65?) -no. 40-60 is fine for now
Zelda -This needs to be discussed

Slight Large Disadvantage (35-65):
Marth -possibly 30-70

Click to expand...

I have added changes, and highlighted in red my comments about characters I think need to be discussed: Pikachu, Yoshi, wtfMario, Pit, Wario, Gaymanwatch, and Zelda.

MK26, i agree with abolishing the extra categories, i vote that we just change it all to neutral. Besides, it'll help avoid confusion considering that DanGR's matchup chart list them as even.

What you could do is separate the matchups by how good or bad they are: Large Advantage (70-30 or higher), Advantage (60-40 & 65-35), Neutral (55-45 to 45-55), Disadvantage (40-60 & 35-65), and Large Disadvantage (30-70 or lower), and then break it down more for each character. Or have the characters in name order and post their individual mathups like the old thread did. More colorful that way.

And keep Sheik and Zelda seperate. Most people only use one of them.

On to my opinions:
C. Falcon- You're kidding, right? We had this at 80-20, for pretty good reasons. He's just not what he was in Melee.
Ike- As an Ike user, I can say he's better than a lot of people think. A lot of the really good Ikes are so good at spacing attacks that no one can hit 'em most of the time. But Ike still is easy as hell to gimp, and Kirby can kill him faster than average (and in a lot of different ways). Change it to 60-40.
Link- Also 80-20. Kirby's small frame and aerial ability makes him less vulnerable to projectiles, taking away Link's main advantage. And everyone knows how bad his recovery is.
Toon Link- Their board seriously has this at 30-70!? TL has better mobility than Link, and a lot better recovery, but still only average. Kirby still doesn't have to worry much about his projectiles. But the big thing is TL's trouble landing his killing moves, when Kirby has several to choose from and several ways to lead into them. I'm saying keep it 60-40.
Wolf- Sure, his blaster is a pain and his f-smash is an even bigger pain, but remember two things: he falls fast (easier to combo, easier to gimp) and his recovery is bad (more gimpability). And with the combo freak and master of cheap kills that is Kirby, those are two major strikes against him. This also doesn't need to be changed. 60-40.
Meta Knight- We spent a lot of time on this in the old thread. They both cancel out each other's aerial dominance and gimping ability. MK racks up damage faster, but Kirby kills earlier. Really don't see a reason to change this from 45-55.

EDIT: That marchup chart really isn't that good. At one point he had Fox as even and Falco & Wolf as bad for Kirby. He didn't listen to anything we said when we tried to change it.

EDIT 2: The matchup thread I'm referring to is not DanGR's.

Asdioh said:

I have added changes, and highlighted in red my comments about characters I think need to be discussed: Pikachu, Yoshi, wtfMario, Pit, Wario, Gaymanwatch, and Zelda.

Click to expand...

This is quite possibly the most productive post in the entire thread. Also, you quoted the old list before I changed it to the edited one...o well

cAm8ooo said:

MK26, i agree with abolishing the extra categories, i vote that we just change it all to neutral. Besides, it'll help avoid confusion considering that DanGR's matchup chart list them as even.

Click to expand...

They're still all neutral...they're just subdivided within the ranking

Delta Z said:

What you could do is separate the matchups by how good or bad they are: Large Advantage (70-30 or higher), Advantage (60-40 & 65-35), Neutral (55-45 to 45-55), Disadvantage (40-60 & 35-65), and Large Disadvantage (30-70 or lower), and then break it down more for each character.

Already done...read 1st post much?

Or have the characters in name order and post their individual mathups like the old thread did. More colorful that way.

I like less colours. More orderly that way.

And keep Sheik and Zelda seperate. Most people only use one of them.

I'm keeping the separate ratings...I'm just adding the 'together' rating

On to my opinions:
C. Falcon- You're kidding, right? We had this at 80-20, for pretty good reasons. He's just not what he was in Melee.
Ike- As an Ike user, I can say he's better than a lot of people think. A lot of the really good Ikes are so good at spacing attacks that no one can hit 'em most of the time. But Ike still is easy as hell to gimp, and Kirby can kill him faster than average (and in a lot of different ways). Change it to 60-40.
Link- Also 80-20. Kirby's small frame and aerial ability makes him less vulnerable to projectiles, taking away Link's main advantage. And everyone knows how bad his recovery is.
Toon Link- Their board seriously has this at 30-70!? TL has better mobility than Link, and a lot better recovery, but still only average. Kirby still doesn't have to worry much about his projectiles. But the big thing is TL's trouble landing his killing moves, when Kirby has several to choose from and several ways to lead into them. I'm saying keep it 60-40.
Wolf- Sure, his blaster is a pain and his f-smash is an even bigger pain, but remember two things: he falls fast (easier to combo, easier to gimp) and his recovery is bad (more gimpability). And with the combo freak and master of cheap kills that is Kirby, those are two major strikes against him. This also doesn't need to be changed. 60-40.
Meta Knight- We spent a lot of time on this in the old thread. They both cancel out each other's aerial dominance and gimping ability. MK racks up damage faster, but Kirby kills earlier. Really don't see a reason to change this from 45-55.

EDIT: That marchup chart really isn't that good. At one point he had Fox as even and Falco & Wolf as bad. He didn't listen to anything we said when we tried to change it.

Click to expand...

Comments in red. Thanks for your opinion (which I personally will not debate). And anyways, I like DanGR's chart better.

MK26 said:

This is quite possibly the most productive post in the entire thread. Also, you quoted the old list before I changed it to the edited one...o well



They're still all neutral...they're just subdivided within the ranking



Comments in red. Thanks for your opinion (which I personally will not debate). And anyways, I like DanGR's chart better.

Click to expand...

ugh, that thing just looks like a big mess.

Most productive post? I can't tell if you were being sarcastic or not o_O
But I agree, I am quite productive :D

Dark Sonic said:

You can study all the information you want, but if you don't apply it to the individual matchups then it doesn't matter at all. You can find that MK has the best recovery, and that Marth's is sub par, but that doesn't help you if you keep getting stagespiked by dolphin slash anyway, or keep getting interupted by fairs while you're trying to edgeguard him (both of which have ways around them btw. But if you don't study them through matchup analysis, then they may be overlooked).

The numbers are used to represent how severe an advantage is. 40:60 is easier to deal with than 30:70 and so on. If you don't like your character's ratio in a matchup, you find reasons why the numbers do not fit the matchup and get it changed. You don't just say "I don't think Kirby vs Marth is 60:40 Marth's favor," you have to give reasons why you believe that's not so. And of course the other side will likely oppose that change, and argue with you, but if your reasons are true then they will survive the debate and the matchup will be changed. In case you didn't notice, Emblem Lord actually went back and revisited the Kirby matchup, and changed the ratio more towards Kirby's favor, because different aspects of the matchup were highlited that suggest that the matchup isn't as one sided as the ratio listing it was.

Click to expand...

Sorry, Dark Sonic, but I agreed that Samus had a slight disadvantage. I just don't see how 60-40 would be considered a "slight" disadvantage. In my Samus guide, the match-up between Samus and Bowser is 70-30, being in Samus' favor. This would be considered a disadvantage, not a slight disadvantage. If it were a slight disadvantage, I think it would be better to just say that it's 80-20. I agreed with it being a slight disadvantage, and I wouldn't mind it being 55-45, because it's slight.

I'll take the time to try out each character to get ideas for my Samus guide. This means that I'll have to go back to Bowser, though fortunately for me, I am not far from that, since my next character for the match-up is Captain Falcon. So, I'll go and try out each character for each match-up to get a feel. After all, practicality beats theory. Another thing you should take into consideration, Dark Sonic, is that I am the only Samus mainer who has even come and discussed in this match-up thread. There hasn't been any other Samus mainers.

Also, I really couldn't care less what Emblem Lord did, because I'm not talking about Marth, nor did I ever say that the match-up between Samus and Kirby was in Samus' favor. (I respect Emblem Lord, by the way, so don't get flustered for me saying what I said.) I acknowledge that the character I main, sucks, and that she's a low-tier character with poor KO potential. Do you see the difference between how I see my character I play as, versus the attitude of other people? Heck, just to let you know, I even said that the match-up between Samus and Link was an even match.

You people may or may not have played against a good Samus. I don't know, and while we have experience from who we play against, it's not easy to determine who is and isn't skilled. I forgot who said that they played against Sir Ravin, but if I recall correctly, Sir Ravin picked up Samus later, not early when the game was out, so in comparison, my Samus probably is better than Sir Ravin's, and any experience from Sir Ravin is still experience, but if you ask the Samus community as a whole to see how well or skillful any Samus player played by watching videos, you will be given anwsers. The same goes for any other character and their community.

DanGR's chart is pretty good from what I saw. Actually bases the matchups off of what the character boards say instead of just whoever posts on the thread. One problem is some of the boards are overly biased or ignore stuff about the other characters (remember a Falco main in the old matchup chart thread arguing that Kirby was 40-60 against Falco because Falco could chain him to the edge and spike him, and because his blaster forced Kirby to approach, saying Kirby couldn't approach. What he didn't mention is that Kirby is barely chainable and hard to spike (thanks to his floatiness and aerial ability), and he can just freakin' duck the blaster.

I'm sorry, what character are we discussing or will be discussing next?

~Gonzo~ said:

I'm sorry, what character are we discussing or will be discussing next?

Click to expand...

By Asdioh's suggestion, Mr. G&W

No sarcasm involved.

U mean Mr. Watch me B Gay? I give the matchup 50-50, although Game & Watch has crzy strong finishers so does Kirby. G&W also has crzy aerials. However the lag on some of them can be taken advantage of i.e. G&Ws Bair, this move has to be well spaced by the G&W player or else Kirby can roll behind him and get him with a hammer or any smash. Also not sur eif u notice G&W Dairing a lot but when they Dair just foxtrot and space a ground hammer to finish him as low as 70-80% Try and keep enough distance to avoid Bair so ur always forcing G&W to approach u a little bit. Also by forcing more of his Bairs to miss u frustrate the player and maybe he'll use Bair less often. Also well timed bricking when G&W is recovering can get mega easy kills lol.

G&W can combo aerials amazingly well taking advantage of Kirby's floatieness. I give this matchup a ranking of 50-50 to 45-55. There really isn't to much advantage if u know how to deal with G&W aerials and not run into a smash attack. Although this only cancels the advantage G&W would have had. Avoiding the above only makes it even.

It's almost edit time... final version of matchup list:

Large Advantage (70-30):
Bowser
Captain Falcon
Fox
Ivysaur
Link

Advantage (60-40):
Charizard
Diddy Kong
Ganondorf
Ike (changed from 70-30)
Jigglypuff
Olimar
Sheik
Sonic
Sheik/Zelda

Small Advantage (55-45):
Falco
King Dedede
Luigi
Mario (changed from 45-55)
Samus (changed from 40-60)
Zero Suit Samus

Neutral (50-50):
Donkey Kong
Kirby
Lucas
Ness
Peach
Pikachu
Squirtle
Toon Link (changed from 60-40)
Wolf (changed from 60-40)
Yoshi

Small Disadvantage (45-55):
Lucario
Meta Knight
Mr. Game&Watch (changed from 40-60)
Pit
Wario

Disadvantage (40-60):
Ice Climbers
Marth (changed from 30-70)
R.O.B.
Snake
Zelda

Large Advantage: 5
Advantage: 9
Neutral: 6/10/5
Disadvantage: 5

Priority discussions: Bowser, Ivysaur, Samus, Toon Link, Lucas, Pikachu, Wolf, Yoshi, Pit, Wario, Meta Knight, Zelda

Continue G&W discussion...

Bump for update.

Also, we forgot to discuss Pokemon Trainer as a whole...

Edit: Because this post serves no purpose, I'd like to point out that of the 264 posts in this thread, 36 have been authored by me.

kawaii, when u say turtle outranges anything we got there is a falloff range Kirby can keep to shut turtle down. Basically if ur to far for his Bair then u can roll away. If ur to close u roll behind or just shield. There is a distinct area which turtle is effective in. Although it has insane priority u have to negate turtle by staying away from its optimal range. that basically stops ur opponent from using turtle. If turtle never hits then he'll stop using turtle. sweet and simple? not really... but its all we got against turtle

~Gonzo~ said:

kawaii, when u say turtle outranges anything we got there is a falloff range Kirby can keep to shut turtle down. Basically if ur to far for his Bair then u can roll away. If ur to close u roll behind or just shield. There is a distinct area which turtle is effective in. Although it has insane priority u have to negate turtle by staying away from its optimal range. that basically stops ur opponent from using turtle. If turtle never hits then he'll stop using turtle. sweet and simple? not really... but its all we got against turtle

Click to expand...

In other words...don't get hit?

How do you tech the d-throw?

u gotta watch it, and lots of experience, even when i know that i need to tech and i try to tech i only get one out of three. It just takes practice. LOTS OF IT i suggest getting a friend to down throw u with G&W till u get the timing down.

Kirby has little disadvantage against G&W, he has several moves that can be spammed, really annoying.

So today I played probably the best G&W in cali (leepuff) and wow this matchup is insane. So much spacing and aerial spamming and platform abuse. With random smashes thrown in to go for early kills.
insane in a fun way that is

Just aim you hitboxes around G&Ws hitboxes.
Probably in favor of G&W 60-40 or something cause he can attack you directly and beat your aerials while you have to move around his aerials. Plus he is slightly better in killing as well. I know that if you aren't careful game and watch can quickly rack up a bunch of damage and can get an early kill.

If game and watch is dairing a platform above you hit him with the corner of your uair.
And always always always be ready for dair.

Jungle Japes is **** just cause of the super high ceiling.

TwilightKirby said:

Probably in favor of G&W 60-40 or something cause he can attack you directly and beat your aerials while you have to move around his aerials. Plus he is slightly better in killing as well.

Click to expand...

I was going to argue for 50-50, but then I read that, and you worded it perfectly. I would have said it was a spacing game, but G&W simply has a better time spacing. I'll add what I can to the matchup discussion, just some random facts, either to help your play or to discuss character advantages:

-G&W can absorb Final Cutter with his bucket. He can also absorb Kirby's Black Sausage Attack once you copy his power. This is strange because he can't absorb other G&W's black sausage, only Kirby's.

-If he knows he can absorb the sausage, flipping one sausage out and then advancing can be a good tactic. It will either 1. provide a tiny bit of cover because there's a little projectile coming at him, or 2. he will use his bucket, and whether he absorbs it or not, it has a bit of ending lag so you can attack him. Make sure to not use it again, if he manages to absorb it, because getting those last 2 stocks in his bucket will probably lead to dthrow->bucketspill of DEATH.

-When copying him (assuming you can inhale him around all his freaking disjointed hitboxes), I'm pretty sure he can dair you directly after the copy. If the G&W knows about this, most will dair every time you copy them, for a free hit. However, if you Starshot them, they will still probably Dair, because they don't have time to waste figuring out if you just used Copy or Starshot, as Dair needs to be used instantly after Copy. ANYWAY, this should give them a little bit of lag, and you could be able to attack. I know this is kind of a "mindgames" thing that doesn't belong in matchup discussion, but think of Lucario and ROB...won't they DAir nearly every single time after being Copied or Starshotted? Isn't it the same with G&W?

-Upsmash pwns him if you can land it. And Fsmash, of course.

-If he's fairly high in the air, try to approach him from below at a 45 degree angle, and attack with Up air. It will go around his dair and hit him...hopefully it goes around his NAir too, I don't know >_<

-As Bunny said, his Up B is a ridiculous recovery, and you can't gimp it with your aerials. That's why you use Stone from some distance above to edgeguard, it should work very well, and KO at fairly low percentages, since G&W is the (second?) lightest character.

-"The Gonzo Combo" (fthrow-uair-reverse uptilt) can be escaped by G&W by using his Up B, I think. Can anyone test this?

-The blade part of rising (and I guess falling) Final Cutter is disjointed and has good priority. Make use of it :O especially if he's near the edge spamming dsmash or something to edgeguard.



Oh, and about teching the dsmash. I heard that the timing is different depending on the character g&w is throwing...I think I remember reading that Kirby should press L either on, or right after, his third "beep". Just try it out, I haven't been able to do it consistently, but that's because I haven't consistently practiced. And I've done it on wifi before lolol

gaws light wieght can be exploited by kirby very well. if he comes at you with a shfair then sheild and do a jumpcanceled upsmash out of sheild. and even dsamsh has a ok upwards killing priority. if dsmash hits on top of kirby or really close it will have stright up knockback. and usmash has a ton of range that is surprising.

ok for all you flamers out there, stop flaming sheermadness! he has good points! sheesh will you guys just get over it?! i'm seeing like what 10 of them just because he's stating something that i believe makes sense? sheer, just ignore those guys. they don't know any better. they just wannna deny it because anything that makes sense can't get in their heads!

Hahaha retro you're like 5 pages late. I'm not worried about people not respecting my opinion anyway, but thnx buddy.

soooo I linked the G&W forums to this thread, but nothing...

>_>

SheerMadness said:

Hahaha retro you're like 5 pages late. I'm not worried about people not respecting my opinion anyway, but thnx buddy.

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oh, sorry. i just got tired reading so many useless posts along the way. but np man. and good luck at the gigs tournament this saturday.

To Tech G&W's d-throw listen to the sounds. When he goes into throw animation, he puts you into a ball and it makes 3 beep sounds. The time to tech is when a fourth beeping sound would be made if the beeps continued and were spaced the same way. I agree that it does take some practice to get this down, but it is really not that hard.

P.S. This is a kirby specific technique. This will not work for most other characters since their weight is different. It just so happens that this works for kirby.

Or you can just watch the animation itself >__>

psykoplympton said:

gaws light wieght can be exploited by kirby very well. if he comes at you with a shfair then sheild and do a jumpcanceled upsmash out of sheild. and even dsamsh has a ok upwards killing priority. if dsmash hits on top of kirby or really close it will have stright up knockback. and usmash has a ton of range that is surprising.

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Any decent G&W will not shfair.

My advice would be to use Final Cutter to mess with G&W airgame (Even that doesn't hurt it too much though), try to learn how he chases you through the air and counter it with the rock, but don't let him grab you out of it or you'll be starting the air chase all over or set up with a d-throw, which you need to be able to tech. Lastly, learn the sweetspot for G&W dsmash and stay the **** out of it. Its kinda quick and it will kill you.

retro gamer said:

ok for all you flamers out there, stop flaming sheermadness! he has good points! sheesh will you guys just get over it?! i'm seeing like what 10 of them just because he's stating something that i believe makes sense? sheer, just ignore those guys. they don't know any better. they just wannna deny it because anything that makes sense can't get in their heads!

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lol retro is behind the times...

As for the d-throw, teching after the 3rd beep, approximately halfway (or later) between the 3rd and where a 4th would be, is enough to tech the throw. Remember to smash the control stick in a direction, preferably away from G&W. If he's good at techchasing or not shielding, try to surprise him with a get-up attack occasionally.

hey guys, can we start discussing ddd soon? he's the only character i have trouble with the most and i seriously wished he wasn't in brawl (or at least not broken).