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Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

What is Sonic's worst match up?


  • Total voters
    52
  • Poll closed .

Napilopez

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='[ I didn't get to play a Pika main this weekend, wish I had. Its so weird because smashboards is like one of the only sites that works perfectly fine in my dorm, while others disconnect. Yet in my house, smashboards is the ONLY site that disconnects me, most of the time. Like, what the heck?

Anyways, it kinda bothers me how Marth was called 65:35 70:30 and Pikachu is being called 55:45, quite ridiculous to me XD.

Umm, that triple steak thing from Taco bell looks like the perfect meal for Sonic mains.

Its funny, I was playing Kinzer's Ike this weekend in friendlies, and he was pwning me the first couple of matches. Then I said it was time for me to bring out the steak sauce, and I beat him the next couple of roundsXD. Then we went about even, they were fun matches.

10uselessposts

EDIT:

Marth was called 70:30? Oh wowz.
 

ROOOOY!

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Marth was called 70:30? Oh wowz.
Really? 0_o

I'ma update the chart on post #3 then, may as well keep that up to date. Don't really agree though..
Was this decided 45:55?

Edit : The Zamus match was called 45:55, but on the summary it says 40:60.
?
Oh dayumn, this chart is going to look depressing.
 

Kinzer

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Hay.

Sonic can F-throw>jablock, or U-throw>jablock too.
Don't mind me double-posting, I'm just going to help Greenstreet get the first post on the next page. Let's start with Tenki, he only gets to have my first post because he's that awesome...sorry Nape/Roy...

Neat trick...although I can't get jab-locks off too well, guess I have to practice.
 

Kinzer

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='[ I didn't get to play a Pika main this weekend, wish I had. Its so weird because smashboards is like one of the only sites that works perfectly fine in my dorm, while others disconnect. Yet in my house, smashboards is the ONLY site that disconnects me, most of the time. Like, what the heck?

Anyways, it kinda bothers me how Marth was called 65:35 70:30 and Pikachu is being called 55:45, quite ridiculous to me XD.

Umm, that triple steak thing from Taco bell looks like the perfect meal for Sonic mains.

Its funny, I was playing Kinzer's Ike this weekend in friendlies, and he was pwning me the first couple of matches. Then I said it was time for me to bring out the steak sauce, and I beat him the next couple of roundsXD. Then we went about even, they were fun matches.

10uselessposts

EDIT:

Marth was called 70:30? Oh wowz.
I have yet to fight a good Marth with my Sonic, I wanna see that turns out. But wather Sonic is at the disadvantage, I'll continue to go my own way.

You're Damn right that the triple Steak thingimabob is the ultimate lunch.

You weren't pumped by Adrenaline Nape, you work on A1 Steaksauce in your blood stream :D

Really? 0_o

I'ma update the chart on post #3 then, may as well keep that up to date. Don't really agree though..
Was this decided 45:55?

Edit : The Zamus match was called 45:55, but on the summary it says 40:60.
?
Oh dayumn, this chart is going to look depressing.
It's more or less neutral, I think the only time that the chart should have colors is when the advantages starts at 60:40, and then anything with a 72:25 dis/advantage should be green/black/whatever the colors were.

Nevertheless, as I said before, numbers mean nothing to me! I fight my hardest and to the end, I never give in to my opponents, especially not when they are MK/G&W/Wario! No matter how hopeless the odds are, I'll give them a fight or (usually) die trying!

Nobody should make anymore posts now, we need to let Greens take over from here.
 

Tenki

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Matchup Discussion #10: Mama Luigi!


i stole teh page.

lol I know what to do.

I stole the Fox page last time.




Luigi! ROFLMAOOOOOOOOOOO

His manly kicks hurt Sonic more than Falcon.

Game start.
 

ROOOOY!

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Have a basic template up. Just copy and paste things said in here. You don't have to add things to it Tenki, it won't be hard lol.

I'm going to be an *** here and say I don't know what people are talking about when they say Luigi hard counters Sonic. 35:65 more like.
And yes I've played good ones.

Play him like Mario, confine him to the ground, he's awful there.
Learn to powershield, it makes this so much easier. Don't follow him into the air. Use utilt.

Win.
 

Napilopez

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Lol, same for me ROOOOY!(OMG I FINALLY SPELLED YOUR NAME RIGHT). Except I think 60:40 is more appropriate.

Take this battle to the ground. If hes beating the heck out of you in the air, DI and spring dair back to the ground if its safe. Shorthopped quick aerials are fine though. just dont expect to try aerials only and win.

What about gimping luigi? I think its not too hard. When he uses rising downB is the problem, but I can deal with green missle well, and his UpB isnt the greatest.

On the ground you have quite a bit more range than him overall, but his smashes are all very powerful, and very quick. God that fsmash.

Umm, keep moving. Do NOT get caught in jab jab UpB or you lose 10 steak points.

And yea, I think Mario is harder than Luigi personally. probably because mario is such an anti edge guarder. But tis just me, and we already did Mario.


Ohhh, one thing to look out for against luigi. If you are going for the classic uthrow> upB>Uair kill, please make sure you are totally aware of staleness of moves, amount of DI, and everything. Basically, just make sure you space yourself well, because you dont want to miss your uair and get hit by that ridiculously powerful quick, and largehitboxified Nair. You will die instead of luigi.
 

Tenki

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mhmm. I found that, if not gimping, doing a B-throw or anything to get Luigi off-stage helps you net more damage on him.

His first up-B is the only one with noticeable rise, so if you can interrupt that with anything (B-air, etc), he's only left with side-B and up-B.

lol you're worried about his F-smash? His U-smash is a pain D;
 

aeghrur

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Is jab-jab-UpB a true combo or a string? If it's a true combo... T_T
If it's a string, try to dodge that, his Up-B comes down slow. ^_^
Watch out for the up-tilted F-smash... T_T He can walk and slide-Fsmash like a hyphen smash sooooooo. T_T yeah. =(
 

Kinzer

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Luigi's quite the slippery guy, but shouldn't we invite the men in Black Green to assist us in the matchup? (Trying to eat posts again, PLEASE for Heaven's sake check wather this page is getting close to 15 or not! I don't want to have to do this again... -_-)
 

Greenstreet

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Lol, I mained him for a while so I might talk from both sides of the matchup as it is...
 

Tenki

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Luigi's quite the slippery guy, but shouldn't we invite the men in Black Green to assist us in the matchup? (Trying to eat posts again, PLEASE for Heaven's sake check wather this page is getting close to 15 or not! I don't want to have to do this again... -_-)
15?

We're on 60, if you're using default.

Anyway, I already made a thread, and I will adapt the first post as necessary.

I DID steal the Fox page for fun and still made it look all pretty and official later on, so hush.

*uses Luigi's jab>up-B*
 

Greenstreet

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mhmm. I found that, if not gimping, doing a B-throw or anything to get Luigi off-stage helps you net more damage on him.

His first up-B is the only one with noticeable rise, so if you can interrupt that with anything (B-air, etc), he's only left with side-B and up-B.
Yeh I don't really care about the page stealing, except the picture is lame (not dissimilar to the Fox pic). But yer ^ care to elaborate on that quote....?
 

Tenki

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err I meant his first down-B/tornado.

The first tornado can rise the most, but if you interrupt it, his future tornados (until he lands) rarely rise.

edit: well, if you don't like the orly picture...
 

Greenstreet

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.....................................................................dsklfjds;lfkjds
LUIGI - Character Matchup 10



Introduction
Luigi is an unlockable character in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. He is unlocked by playing 22 matches in Brawl, then defeat Luigi, Beating Classic Mode using no continues, then defeating Luigi, get Luigi to join your party in The Subspace Emissary. His moveset seems essentially unchanged, though some of his potential disadvantages from Melee appear to have been diminished (very low friction, very low falling speed, very low horizontal air speed). His dash attack has the same animation and effect, except the last blow now has some knockback, making this move not quite so easy to punish. Another minor change is that his voice is no longer a recycled Mario voice sped up, but his deeper voice from recent games.

SSBB was the only title in the Smash Bros. series where Luigi was higher on the tier list than his older brother Mario (Luigi is currently 23, Mario 29) until the recent SBR Melee tier update.

Behaviour:

... the thing about Luigi is that his aerial game shuts out Sonic's. I'm pretty sure that Luigi's N-Air> All of Sonic's air moves, and to whoever said Luigi is slow, shut up. Honestly, no. His aerial moves have very little lag, his smashes are all fast, and his F-Smash has "the speed of a jab but the power of 1000 gods."

The "lol no priority/kill moves lol" argument is gone, but Sonic still has sub-par priority on most moves. A good Luigi, as of recently, will try to recover from above or sweetspot the ledge with Green Missile. If he is recovering from below, it should not be a problem, especially with the spring. Luigi also has a "smorgasboard" of KO options, and Sonic does not.

There's Jab-UpB, Jab-DSmash, Jab-Dtilt trip-SHORYUUUKEN, which, given it is done fast enough, is inescapable. There's the classic AAA combo, Jab to up angled F-Smash (Here's an idea. Pick Luigi in training mode, with default controls. Hold up, and mash the C-Stick forward. You will be surprised by the results, which are something like WAHWAHWAHWAH), Jab-USmash, and... I think you get the point

Luigi mains don't need to worry about killing, because at early percents, his moves combo extremely well, but at higher percents, almost everything can kill fresh. The means Luigis don't have to alter their playstyle to kill. F-Air is the exception, it CAN kill, but it kills at high percentages. Otherwise, it's a 0 lag move that chains well. Luigi's disadvantage is his range and poor defensive game, so you're either going to have to play spacey/zoney, or somehow find a way to make Sonic's offense incredible, so Luigi will have to play defensively. Most Luigi mains have trouble doing that.
-Delta_BP26

Falling aerials' spacing can be screwed by Sonic's running shield, so they're usually openings for shield grabs. Tornado/fireballs can be used to counteract spindashes, and u-tilt starts juggles. Basically, the same way that Sonic can follow up a spindash with any aerial, Luigi can follow up his aerials with other ones, since he's so floaty.
-Tenki

Commonly Used Moves:
Jab: If you've read the behaviour, you already know that the jab is deadly. It can go into almost anything and the common Luigi will shake it up so often its hard to predict. Try to learn their behaviour on this one...maybe keep your distance... Luigi is a great close combat figher.

U-angled F-smash: Just one of many crazy Luigi kill moves. It's pretty quick as far as smashes go, so keep out of its short range is the best tactic. F-tilt if you know its coming.

FJP: Firejump punch, we all know what it is, itll suffice to say, dont get hit, and dont give weegee the opportunities to land it. Also...punish the misses.

D-smash: Quick as a flippin blue hedgehog. We wont win spot dodge wars with this one on the loose. Sorry.

D-tilt: I just want it to be common knowledge that this move trips you pretty consistently...dont get FJP'ed as a result.

Fireball: Won't change height like Mario's but that makes ir great for restricting a specific part of the stage consistently. Learn to avoid it or punish its ending and starting lag.


How to Win:

you really gotta abuse the high priority/long ranged moves here. Whe you catch luigi hanging on the ledge almost everything he does is punishable since his get up attack is seriously bad you can just sit outside his range, as soon as invincibility wears off begin the b-air spam and drop a spring on his head or usmash him if he wont get up. Fireball spam is annoying but extremely punishable. Dthrow like crazy, it sends luigi across entire stages and if you grab him at the edge, pummel-release for an easy b-air stage spike. The only thing that got on my nerves in me an GS's matches was luigis dsmash. with proper DI i was living to silly high %'s against it but its so **** spammable.

-djbrowny

Play a grounded game and abuse your Uair. That is the only move that can reasonably beat out Luigi's in terms of priority. Bair might work in a few instances but overall, just stay to the ground. once he starts chucking fireballs, you've limited him and you can approach safely. Just beware the Utilt traps and his Dsmashes
shadowlink64

Sonic's ground game, the aerial just won't cut. Luigi will stay in air, but he can't stay there forever. Block aerials, shieldgrab if possible. F-smash should be saved for kills. Also Down-B's from half FD distance tend to work. Hit, jump, aerial. Land off course, don't be air if you don't have to. Also get Luigi off stage, It's his worst place. Luigi can be gimped easily, when he's below the ledge. One f-air should do it. To get him below the ledge, grab release near edge or D-throw near edge.

-Gf2tw

As for Weegee's Bycicle kick Uair, Sonic doesn't have anything to answer this except a Dair that has been initiated before, and a Spring to escape. again another one of his aerials that is too spammable for anything in your arsenal in that position.

-Napilopez

Usually, disjointed aerial games are problematic. Luigi's aerials have low range, so it's easier to grab him out of them.
-Tenki

Recommended Stages:
Seeing as though Sonic is useful when above Luigi, it makes sense not to have many platforms available to get yourself stuck on. Keep that in mind...


Matchup Summary:
 

ROOOOY!

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Less fail.
More not fail.
Please.

The thread title needs changing.
Also, that chart needs changing. Like, you have neutral on there for ZSS, yet you've put it at 40:60, which technically makes it a disadvantage.
 

Tenki

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LOL
Anyway, back to the matchup discussion...

So the general idea I'm getting is that Luigi usually just shoots fireballs and waits for people to attack, then probably punishes with something.

Luigi's fireballs, unlike Mario's, do not fall, so aerial fireballs/fireballs done while moving are going to be much rarer, I think.

Let's get past that for now (or rather, return to it later when more Luigi mains join the discussion)

- What are Luigi's approaches/counter-approaches? (assuming you get past fireball spam)
- Are they safe on shield?

I kinda had this idea that Luigi's aerials are pretty crappy for approaching, since in general, you can shieldgrab them - and even worse if you power shield. I've been told "well if the Luigi spaces right then-" but if Sonic's doing a running shield, then that kinda falls apart. He's slippery on the ground, but not in the air.
 

Greenstreet

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Well, my view of it is this.

Luigi is definitely a close combat fighter, and pretty defensive at that (slidy).
Against Sonic you probably won't see as much aerial or grounded fireball spam, coz well....Sonic can run pretty fast I hear.
I never did it myself, but people used to think that a D-air to Tornado was pretty safe.
The biggest things that Luigi mains love is move buffering though, it works really well into D-smash along with others I guess...it's pretty handy.

They also know fairly well what strings the can pull off (the good 1's anyway) into the FJP (fire jump punch). There was a bit of a thread going around to do with their b-air knocking them to the ground, then reverse fireballing to lock them then FJP... I'll go find the link. But yer... stuff like that can be a pain.

As for their aerials, they are really fast... so although luigi's airspeed is one of the worst in the game, he can put up a pretty good defense in the air. His f-air's comes out extremely fast and the term WoP always gets thrown around with his b-air. They are all great for combos.
His n-air is a pretty powerful kill move once he gets us over 100%... its properties are annoying. I doubt serious Luigi's will ever dash attack as an approach. Or green missile for that matter...
To be honest Luigi has poor approaching ability, much to the reason he is (in my eyes) a defensive character..
Other than jabs, or a sliding d-smash or sliding f-smash... there isnt much in the way of grounded approaching...
He is much better off going for a WoP or a grab or using a tornado to get in there.
I gotta run for now. Be back in like an hour...
 

ROOOOY!

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Fireballs aren't used as a method to force an approach mostly, because they are too slow moving. By my understanding, they are usually used more as a mid range attack over anything else.
Luigi has no ground approach whatsoever, and his aerial approaches are all pretty unsafe.

For some reason, I find hyphen smashing really useful in this match-up. I can't explain why.
 

Napilopez

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lololol weegee.

Umm, well air speed isn't as important as aerial acceleration. Luigi's aerial acceleration isnt bad, so he can actually weave Bairs in and out. Sonic actually has one of the quickest airspeeds of the game at max velocity, its his aerial acceleration that makes him seem slow in the air. Trying to change directions or weave with Sonic is way too slow.

Most luigis i've faced wait for Sonic too apprach. Lulz, almost everyone I know waits for Sonic to approach except MK. Bairs are too

I would recommend that especially in the beginning you are particularly heavily in motion. Luigi's strings at low percents are crazy. So even though I usually strongly dislike hit-and-run with Sonic, it might be best in this matchup to just try to land a couple of fairs, grabs, and dash attacks before luigi really gets the chance to put the hurt on you.

This is kind of obvious, but if he ever uses green missile and lands on stage, punish it, lol.

Anyways, powershileding into grabs is definately your friend here. If he's spamming bair at close range, then, you might wanna try running backwards to escape, then pivot and run backwards, powershielding the next Bair and sliding into grab range.
 

Tenki

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Oh yeah, Luigi has fast aerials so if you get a low juggle, don't be over-aggro - probably better to prepare for a counter attack.
 

Kinzer

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Tenki, I meant I have 15 posts per page...uhm anyway I'll give my insight for MAMA LUIGI! when the actual Luigis get over here.
 

Napilopez

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Oh yeah, Luigi has fast aerials so if you get a low juggle, don't be over-aggro - probably better to prepare for a counter attack.
Yea his nair breaks strings and juggles quite easily. Uair does outprioritize everything he has if spaced and timed right, but thats hard to do because of his superior aerial mobility and attack speed.

How does Sonic's Fair fair(lol pun) against luigi's? They both come out quickly, and I'm not sure if Sonics can outprioritizes luigis in the air if both are running headon. But then again, you wont find yourself there often as if anything luigi will approach with bair.
 

Greenstreet

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Yea his nair breaks strings and juggles quite easily. Uair does outprioritize everything he has if spaced and timed right, but thats hard to do because of his superior aerial mobility and attack speed.

How does Sonic's Fair fair(lol pun) against luigi's? They both come out quickly, and I'm not sure if Sonics can outprioritizes luigis in the air if both are running headon. But then again, you wont find yourself there often as if anything luigi will approach with bair.
Sorry, Luigi's airspeed is like second last(so as for mobility, Sonic takes the cake [5th fastest])...attack speed is fine though...

Luigi's f-air has more range and can be spaced pretty easily(since it can be used to quickly), pretty sure it wins out..

As for Luigi mains, there would only be a few I would trust, them being elheber, LuigiKing, WIGI, and lucoan (could b spelt wrong)...
 

Napilopez

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You is misinterpretting me mr greeny green green avenue. I said two posts of mine ago that I dont think airspeed is as important as air acceleration., which basically translate sinto the amount of lateral control you have in the air. Like yea, you can spinshot and sonic will move ridiculously quickly though the air, but can you actually weave in and out and zig zag with it like wario can? And wario's air speed isnt that much higher than Sonics.

Yet toon link, samus, marth, mario, and squirtle all have slower airspeeds than sonic, and they can maneuver much better through the air than Sonic, thats what I meant by "mobility". Sorry for not explaining myself well enough. So I'm pretty sure luigi accelerates better in the air better than sonic, which is why he can move forward with a bair, and then retreat with it in the air quickly if I'm not mistaken.
 

Napilopez

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No prob =P

Imagine if Sonic had Wario's aerial acceleration?(Which I'm pretty sure is the best in the game)

Spinshotting and then having that kind of control in the air XD. But yea, stages against Weegee?

I think battlefield is generally a bad choice against air chars, but I seem to do pretty fine against the weeger here, although that might have just been luck. FD as usual is pretty good. Lylat might work well for gimping his recovery. Delfino is nice too. Dont go to any stage with low ceilings, cuz you'll die soooo early.
 
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I get a lot of luigi with f air, and stay on them with u tilt. but there time where i was eating fireballs for most of the match, and had trouble powing luigi. He no that hard of match up, but I say decent one here for Sonic. 60:40 for me.
 

Greenstreet

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I would just like to point out that Ivan Evas Matchup chart puts this as a big advantage for Luigi...
I dont like that chart...sometimes..
 
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