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Official G&W Stage Discussion #4: Brinstar
- Thread starter K 2
- Start date
I had already written an analysis, but the forum decided to eat it which was just lovely. Let's try again!
I think Brinstar is a pretty poor level for Mr. Game & Watch. Most of the ground is sloped at inconvenient angles that serve to greatly restrict the utility of dtilt, ftilt, and fsmash. Additionally, the "divide" in the middle where the ground is breakable really limits your mobility on the ground. The general size of things is too big for dsmash to cover everything as well; it all works together to give Mr. Game & Watch a greatly inhibited ground game here.
His air game also runs into trouble, again because of that divide. Nailing the divide with the key is very dangerous (even if you slowfall), and it serves to make the key far less useful here than on every other level. The uneven and obnoxious to transverse ground makes selecting spacing for the turtle difficult as well, and the acid can mess up otherwise golden fishbowl opportunities.
In fact, the acid really sucks for Mr. Game & Watch. He is so light that it kills him earlier than almost everyone else, and it destroys his attempts to ledgestall or approach from under the stage, two tactics he is exceptional at. It generally is a boon to characters with poor recovery, and Mr. Game & Watch is not in that crowd. It sometimes forces everyone to huddle together in a small area even, and being an "at arm's reach" spacing sort of guy, Mr. Game & Watch won't like that.
The destructible terrain makes it really easy for short range characters to duck around it and cause Mr. Game & Watch to stale out his kill moves. It is a factor in staling everyone's kill moves, but I feel it hurts Mr. Game & Watch more than most because he won't be wanting to sit behind the pillars himself.
I give this stage a 3/10, and I'm not sure if a lower score would be appropriate even. It's a bad Mr. Game & Watch stage all around, and it's a solid candidate for a stage ban. Few players seem to like to pick this stage, but I would be concerned if someone like Marth who can just exploit the odd shapes of things decided to give it a whirl. Some projectile users, such as Link and Toon Link, can really exploit the stage's general obstructiveness well, but others, mostly Snake, will not be able to do what they want here very well so that's a mixed bag. This is purely conjecture, but I have a funny feeling that King Dedede players might find this stage quite the boon against Mr. Game & Watch as well. It would be a great stage for Waddle Dee, and I imagine a smart King Dedede could use the topography to make himself more obnoxious to approach than he usually is.
I think Brinstar is a pretty poor level for Mr. Game & Watch. Most of the ground is sloped at inconvenient angles that serve to greatly restrict the utility of dtilt, ftilt, and fsmash. Additionally, the "divide" in the middle where the ground is breakable really limits your mobility on the ground. The general size of things is too big for dsmash to cover everything as well; it all works together to give Mr. Game & Watch a greatly inhibited ground game here.
His air game also runs into trouble, again because of that divide. Nailing the divide with the key is very dangerous (even if you slowfall), and it serves to make the key far less useful here than on every other level. The uneven and obnoxious to transverse ground makes selecting spacing for the turtle difficult as well, and the acid can mess up otherwise golden fishbowl opportunities.
In fact, the acid really sucks for Mr. Game & Watch. He is so light that it kills him earlier than almost everyone else, and it destroys his attempts to ledgestall or approach from under the stage, two tactics he is exceptional at. It generally is a boon to characters with poor recovery, and Mr. Game & Watch is not in that crowd. It sometimes forces everyone to huddle together in a small area even, and being an "at arm's reach" spacing sort of guy, Mr. Game & Watch won't like that.
The destructible terrain makes it really easy for short range characters to duck around it and cause Mr. Game & Watch to stale out his kill moves. It is a factor in staling everyone's kill moves, but I feel it hurts Mr. Game & Watch more than most because he won't be wanting to sit behind the pillars himself.
I give this stage a 3/10, and I'm not sure if a lower score would be appropriate even. It's a bad Mr. Game & Watch stage all around, and it's a solid candidate for a stage ban. Few players seem to like to pick this stage, but I would be concerned if someone like Marth who can just exploit the odd shapes of things decided to give it a whirl. Some projectile users, such as Link and Toon Link, can really exploit the stage's general obstructiveness well, but others, mostly Snake, will not be able to do what they want here very well so that's a mixed bag. This is purely conjecture, but I have a funny feeling that King Dedede players might find this stage quite the boon against Mr. Game & Watch as well. It would be a great stage for Waddle Dee, and I imagine a smart King Dedede could use the topography to make himself more obnoxious to approach than he usually is.
Mr. Escalator
G&W Guru
I'm going to, but I'm working on my next discussion thread right now <__________>
Just keep this alive, or if you want to move on, I will come back to this.
Just keep this alive, or if you want to move on, I will come back to this.
slikvik
Smash Master
I do extremely well on this stage with G&W. Its my main counterpick lolz. everyone in MD/VA bans it against me now
Ok. I just want to know more than 1 person is reading this thread. I like having at least 2-3 people's inputs before I right the summary
Give a reason? Tell us your strategy? I have a hard time on this stage with G&W. Could you share some tips on how to excel on this stage?
Mr. Escalator
G&W Guru
I'm on slikvik's boat in liking this stage and doing mostly well, but I will have my post sometime later 
_Phloat_
Smash Champion
He maneuvers well around the bumpy stage, and can punish really well when people are forced onto the platform from lava would by my guess.
Also, if you get a d-throw on the breakable thing, or any of the platforms you can punish pretty well b/c their rolls are useless.
AA's cons are all right though, I would say that it isn't good for GaW at all, but it can throw people off because it may be just as bad for their character, and GaW is more adaptable, even if he can't take as much punishment.
Another thing to mention is he can go all the way out and gimp people off the sides, even after his parachute, because the lava makes this safe. Makes for a nice surprise, but not really that useful.
Also, if you get a d-throw on the breakable thing, or any of the platforms you can punish pretty well b/c their rolls are useless.
AA's cons are all right though, I would say that it isn't good for GaW at all, but it can throw people off because it may be just as bad for their character, and GaW is more adaptable, even if he can't take as much punishment.
Another thing to mention is he can go all the way out and gimp people off the sides, even after his parachute, because the lava makes this safe. Makes for a nice surprise, but not really that useful.
Veng
Smash Ace
Wait, #4? I only see brinstar.
FakeGeorge
Smash Journeyman
I think that Brinstar is a good stage for G&W, but there's usually better out there for him. When the lava rises, characters are forced into the air or onto small platforms. In most cases, this is advantageous for G&W. Either he can abuse his typically superior air game or have fun with Dthrow. This is especially true when the lava rises all the way and only one platform is left.
The fact that G&W can jump up through the floor is great. You can UpB or rising Nair as a fairly safe way to get back onto the stage. Also, if your opponent tries something like that, the key's hitbox reaches a bit below the stage, so you can take advantage of their attempts to come through the floor.
The middle section is dangerous for you if you hit it with a Dair, so that's something to be careful about. It's also important to note that the things that connect the two side platforms to the main floor can mess up your timing on multi-hit moves.
I think the most notable aspect of this stage is its usefulness against ROB. The sides of Brinstar stop the gyro, which is helpful with recovery. It limits where ROB can fire it from, and keeps ROB from using while he recovers. The lava forces movement, which is helpful against campy ROBs. The floor gives G&W more options from the ledge, though it does for ROB too. Then again, ROB has a better ledge game than G&W already, so I consider it a plus. I'd say it's my #1 CP against ROB. If a ROB doesn't ban it, use it.
Overall, I'd give the stage a 7/10. It's not a bad stage for G&W. It can make a decent counterpick if better stages are already banned. Where this stage really shines against is ROB.
The fact that G&W can jump up through the floor is great. You can UpB or rising Nair as a fairly safe way to get back onto the stage. Also, if your opponent tries something like that, the key's hitbox reaches a bit below the stage, so you can take advantage of their attempts to come through the floor.
The middle section is dangerous for you if you hit it with a Dair, so that's something to be careful about. It's also important to note that the things that connect the two side platforms to the main floor can mess up your timing on multi-hit moves.
I think the most notable aspect of this stage is its usefulness against ROB. The sides of Brinstar stop the gyro, which is helpful with recovery. It limits where ROB can fire it from, and keeps ROB from using while he recovers. The lava forces movement, which is helpful against campy ROBs. The floor gives G&W more options from the ledge, though it does for ROB too. Then again, ROB has a better ledge game than G&W already, so I consider it a plus. I'd say it's my #1 CP against ROB. If a ROB doesn't ban it, use it.
Overall, I'd give the stage a 7/10. It's not a bad stage for G&W. It can make a decent counterpick if better stages are already banned. Where this stage really shines against is ROB.
Mr. Escalator
G&W Guru
Ah screw it! FakeGeorge stole what I was going to say about Brinstar, most notably it being a great ROB cp. All I have left is that G&W can kill an MK without DI on the top platform at about 106%, and about half that percent for Usmash to kill.
7/10 as well for me.
7/10 as well for me.
Being forced up onto the platform isn't helpful in my eyes since you can't effectively pressure it. For instance, you can nair through the platform sure, but if the acid is rising you have to land on it when you're done which really limits you. You can't fully space the turtle when turtling onto it either because you have to land on it. What I find this usually means is that I just get shieldgrabbed due to the stage limiting my options. It is indeed true that, if you can land a grab, that upper platform is nice, but I just don't see that happen very often as they will only stand on that platform if the acid is rising so you only get the advantage if you get to the platform first. The ability to pass through the bottom is indeed great, but the unpredictable nature of the acid means that's something you can only occasionally rely on. The acid also dulls the advantage of the extra recovery options that provides relative to the rest of the cast, unfortunately.
I can see this being a good stage to bring R.O.B. to, but isn't Corneria already an option that is notoriously bad for R.O.B.? I also really like bringing R.O.B. to Green Greens; it may not limit him as much as Brinstar, but it sure enhances Mr. Game & Watch more to make up for it. R.O.B. was already a pretty good matchup too so I'm not sure this stage helping against him really saves it for Mr. Game & Watch overall.
I can see this being a good stage to bring R.O.B. to, but isn't Corneria already an option that is notoriously bad for R.O.B.? I also really like bringing R.O.B. to Green Greens; it may not limit him as much as Brinstar, but it sure enhances Mr. Game & Watch more to make up for it. R.O.B. was already a pretty good matchup too so I'm not sure this stage helping against him really saves it for Mr. Game & Watch overall.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201905
You'll find all the discussions here. Feel free to contribute to any of the threads, even if they are labeled "completed". The more info, the better.
This stage takes away a lot of G&W's advantages: his superior recovery compared to the rest of the cast, and his gimping ablilty. His tilts/smashes are less effective on bumpy ground. G&W is terrible when his opponent is right on him, his doesn't really have any GTFO moves like MK's SL or Dsmash. G&W likes his space and the stage becomes really crowded when the lava begins to rise. Also, the lava kills G&W incredibly early...
Regardless of the "rating", this should definately NOT be one of your counterpicks (corneria and RC should be your CP's - we will discuss them later).
Regardless of the "rating", this should definately NOT be one of your counterpicks (corneria and RC should be your CP's - we will discuss them later).
FakeGeorge
Smash Journeyman
Well, in my area, Corneria isn't a CP option, so if someone bans Rainbow Cruise, I have to find somewhere else. I've never played a ROB on Corneria, so I don't know how the matchup is there. Brinstar isn't typically a CP for me, but I think it can work depending on your familiarity with the stage, your opponent's familiarity with the stage, and your opponent's characters. To me, it's situational but useable.
It seems that we agree that when the lava rises, if G&W can get to the top platform first, it's good for him. Now, what about when your opponent beats you there?
If the lava is still in the process of coming all the way up, UpB or Nair from below might clear space. If your opponent is standing on the side of the top platform, Dair is an option. If you hit their shield, they'll slide off the platform, which prevents a shield grab.
Also, I'm not positive, but G&W can probably just double jump, UpB, and float down slowly if it looks like a bad idea to go to the platform. If you can UpB and wait it out, then at the worst you come out of this neutral. If not, you better get to the platform first. It's not hard to tell when it's rising, and his UpB is good for helping you beat your opponent there.
I'm not saying that the lava gives G&W crazy good options and shuts everyone else down, but I think he'll be in a better position more often than other characters.
Sure the lava can help some characters make up for a lack of recovery, but it isn't always there. Still, I agree that it is a drawback of playing on Brinstar.
I disagree with uneven ground automatically making tilts and smashes worse. It changes where the hitboxes are, but that doesn't make them worse. Dtilt and Dsmash have less horizontal range, but that's in exchange for some extra vertical range. I think it's different but not necessarily worse.
It seems that we agree that when the lava rises, if G&W can get to the top platform first, it's good for him. Now, what about when your opponent beats you there?
If the lava is still in the process of coming all the way up, UpB or Nair from below might clear space. If your opponent is standing on the side of the top platform, Dair is an option. If you hit their shield, they'll slide off the platform, which prevents a shield grab.
Also, I'm not positive, but G&W can probably just double jump, UpB, and float down slowly if it looks like a bad idea to go to the platform. If you can UpB and wait it out, then at the worst you come out of this neutral. If not, you better get to the platform first. It's not hard to tell when it's rising, and his UpB is good for helping you beat your opponent there.
I'm not saying that the lava gives G&W crazy good options and shuts everyone else down, but I think he'll be in a better position more often than other characters.
Sure the lava can help some characters make up for a lack of recovery, but it isn't always there. Still, I agree that it is a drawback of playing on Brinstar.
I disagree with uneven ground automatically making tilts and smashes worse. It changes where the hitboxes are, but that doesn't make them worse. Dtilt and Dsmash have less horizontal range, but that's in exchange for some extra vertical range. I think it's different but not necessarily worse.
Stage rules vary a lot regionally K 2; it's just how it is. I can't expect any consistent set of rules tournament to tournament even; I just make sure to be personally prepared to play on every level and try to have a long list of stages ready to use for any situation (by the way, I disagree about the counterpicks being Rainbow Cruise and Corneria; those are good but I prefer Green Greens and Norfair).
The main issue with the slopes is that, when you are facing downhill, a lot of the range of your moves is wasted by being inside of the ground. It's really limiting and has no real advantage. I don't think the extra vertical range is a fair trade at all for horizontal range when you are facing up either, but that's the optimistic scenario.
The main issue with the slopes is that, when you are facing downhill, a lot of the range of your moves is wasted by being inside of the ground. It's really limiting and has no real advantage. I don't think the extra vertical range is a fair trade at all for horizontal range when you are facing up either, but that's the optimistic scenario.
Neb
Smash Lord
I'd choose Green Greens over Corneria and Rainbow Cruise any day.
The ledge camp on that map is just ****.
The ledge camp on that map is just ****.
_Phloat_
Smash Champion
Its all theory crafting so far, I'll CP it against my friends lucario, if the recovery thing makes the matches closer than they are Ill report it, although it won't be the end all it will help =\.
Why is it so good against rob? Negates recovery? But if he camps below the platforms on the left or right he will be able to jab to recharge his moves, and fire lasers..
=\.
JawKnee~
Smash Cadet
I like Corneria, the lasers from the ship and arwings hurt if you fill up your bucket. And on the left side of Corneria, you can edgeguard pretty good, in my opinion. Couple of D-Tilts, maybe a bit of Chef, and you can rack up quite a bit of damage.
I think the weird columns under the two side platforms stop ROB's lasers and gyro (tell me if I'm wrong). I don't see how the lava would hurt his recovery; the lava usually helps peoples recovery.
This is the brinstar discussion. Wait for the Corneria discussion.
_Phloat_
Smash Champion
Anything you can hurt can't stop ROB's lasers, there may be 1 or 2 counterexamples but I'm pretty sure the lasers can go through the gummy pillar things.
And the lava would help his recovery, but since he has a good one already it doesn't help him as much as it helps the other characters, thus hurting his recovery, from a comparative standpoint
Also, you are right about the brinstar thing, that corneria post was random
My bad. That gummy pillar things stops ROB's gyro, not the laser. As FakeGeorge said, "The lava forces movement, which is helpful against campy ROBs." This might not be a bad stage against the IC's either. I saw a video of Anther absolutely destroying some IC's in brinstar. The lava interrupts their 0-death CG's.
So far, Brinstar is a possible CP for ROB and the IC's.
So far, Brinstar is a possible CP for ROB and the IC's.
Mr. Escalator
G&W Guru
Also, though I only played a single match the other day on Brinstar, it may be a good CP against ZSS. If she spawns on the right side, all but one piece of armor will bounce off the stage. It also makes it harder for ZSS to roll around you, since you cant roll past the Sticky middle center, and her glidetossing game becomes a bit more complicated. It's also harder for her to follow up on things. Just watch out for the top platform + her Usmash.
I dont think the tilts are any worse on this stage since it's bumpy, I think thats quite useful. The dtilt can be used in more interesting ways, like covering a greater deal above you, or being able to go down a lot more to help his edgeguarding game.
Also G&W doesnt really die to the lava/acid. Still, better not take the damage!
I dont think the tilts are any worse on this stage since it's bumpy, I think thats quite useful. The dtilt can be used in more interesting ways, like covering a greater deal above you, or being able to go down a lot more to help his edgeguarding game.
Also G&W doesnt really die to the lava/acid. Still, better not take the damage!
_Phloat_
Smash Champion
TL:DR of this topic.
Brinstar screws GaW. However, because it screws some characters even more it can be a good pick.
Brinstar screws GaW. However, because it screws some characters even more it can be a good pick.
Mr. Escalator
G&W Guru
Yep, that is correct!
Neb
Smash Lord
But, why should G&W's moveset ever be stale?
Shouldn't happen unless your ledge camping, or spamming.
Though, its still good to know never the less.
I wouldn't pick this stage unless I was playing IC, Robert, or space animals.
Shouldn't happen unless your ledge camping, or spamming.
Though, its still good to know never the less.
I wouldn't pick this stage unless I was playing IC, Robert, or space animals.
The acid kills Mr. Game & Watch without DI at 116% if he's standing on the left platform as it comes up below him. It's definitely a factor in killing him. It's not devastating or anything, but I don't see how it's not a factor.
FakeGeorge
Smash Journeyman
The lava is certainly something to consider, but I don't think you have to worry about being KOed by it unless you're at a fairly high %.
It may KO with no DI at 116, but what about with DI? In a match, if we know that it could kill us, then I think we'd have some sort of DI, realistically. I think I'll have some time to experiment with this tonight. If I do, I'll post what I find out.
I think the big bonuses of this stage vs ROB are its ability to stop gyros and the jump through floor. If you're on the other side of one of the pillars, then his gyro is very limited. That means he can only laser you from a distance, but you have a bucket. ROB knows this, and it'll cut his projectile spam down a good deal. It doesn't seem like much, but I think this helps a lot in the match.
The jump through floor gives you a nice alternative to get up from the ledge, which is something I find to be difficult if the ROB spaces himself right. If he tries to come up from underneath, you have your key. His Uair can beat the key, but if you expect it, then you can time your Dair to beat him. You don't really have a problem with ROB being able to beat your UpB or Nair when he's above you, so you can come through fairly safely.
It may KO with no DI at 116, but what about with DI? In a match, if we know that it could kill us, then I think we'd have some sort of DI, realistically. I think I'll have some time to experiment with this tonight. If I do, I'll post what I find out.
I think the big bonuses of this stage vs ROB are its ability to stop gyros and the jump through floor. If you're on the other side of one of the pillars, then his gyro is very limited. That means he can only laser you from a distance, but you have a bucket. ROB knows this, and it'll cut his projectile spam down a good deal. It doesn't seem like much, but I think this helps a lot in the match.
The jump through floor gives you a nice alternative to get up from the ledge, which is something I find to be difficult if the ROB spaces himself right. If he tries to come up from underneath, you have your key. His Uair can beat the key, but if you expect it, then you can time your Dair to beat him. You don't really have a problem with ROB being able to beat your UpB or Nair when he's above you, so you can come through fairly safely.
116% is fairly low. Considering the heavyweights can survive up to 140-150% in the lava, G&W is definitely affected by it. With G&W, I can usually survive to 120-130% before I get smashed off to my doom, so the lava can act like a smash attack for the opponent.
The three platforms can give you an advantage with your dthrow combos and followups, just like on batterfield. However, I think the two side platforms become slanted after you break the gooey pillar things, so that will make you dthrow followups a bit harder.
I don't think this is a good stage for G&W, unless you are CP certain characters. Brinstar doesn't offer any advantages that other stages don't have. This stage isn't played on too often, so it might come down the who's more familiar with the stage and who's better at adapting to the stage. If you know your opponent doesn't play on Brinstar very often, this could be a possible counterpick.
Does anyone know the ceiling height/blastzones on Brinstar?
The three platforms can give you an advantage with your dthrow combos and followups, just like on batterfield. However, I think the two side platforms become slanted after you break the gooey pillar things, so that will make you dthrow followups a bit harder.
I don't think this is a good stage for G&W, unless you are CP certain characters. Brinstar doesn't offer any advantages that other stages don't have. This stage isn't played on too often, so it might come down the who's more familiar with the stage and who's better at adapting to the stage. If you know your opponent doesn't play on Brinstar very often, this could be a possible counterpick.
Does anyone know the ceiling height/blastzones on Brinstar?
if my memory serves me right i think the height and blastzones aren't too great. the blastzones i think are close to yoshi's story maybe closer, and i think the ceiling is a little lower than yoshi's story, if that helps. but i haven't played brinstar in a while so i could be wrong.
edit:
the ceilings, i have been told by my friend, are actually pretty high, but the blastzones are still pretty small.
I suggest using this thread to reference stage ceilings (other than Pokemon Stadium 1 which is mysteriously omitted but presumably similar to Pokemon Stadium 2):
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=156908
Brinstar has a low ceiling, but it's not incredibly low; it's just barely lower than Final Destination with the side issue that the platforms are going to be a significant factor in leading to earlier vertical kills. There's overall less variety in ceiling height in brawl than in melee actually.
Anyway, this has been a really good discussion; would this be a good summary?
Brinstar as a stage is an obscure counterpick, and it offers few advantages to Mr. Game & Watch. The bumpy floor gives him the questionable trade-off of more unpredictability and options in exchange for range, and the breakable terrain in the center can be limiting. Also, the acid is an overall detrimental factor to him as it can kill him at high but not unreasonable percentages, and it sometimes leads to him forfeiting positional advantages. However, the pass through floor of Brinstar is useful to Mr. Game & Watch, and while the stage generally doesn't do much to help him, it does more to hurt other characters so it can be a matchup specific counter. While it may be argued that some other stages are more useful, stage bans and regional rules might make Brinstar a good choice for Mr. Game & Watch if he looks to challenge R.O.B., the Ice Climbers, or any member of team Star Fox. Brinstar may be favorable in other matchups still unexplored by the community as well; its ultimate fate as a counter will rest in the individual player. While it is true that it offers a wide range of match affecting factors, the biggest factor of them all on Brinstar is stage familiarity; few players know it well. Even if the stage is academically bad for Mr. Game & Watch in a particular matchup, it may be a golden choice against an opponent who has little experience on the stage. Likewise, if the Mr. Game & Watch player has not refined his ability to exploit the various factors Brinstar brings to the game, he will be seeing a quicker than usual defeat.
[Insert Score]
I move we move on to the next stage soon.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=156908
Brinstar has a low ceiling, but it's not incredibly low; it's just barely lower than Final Destination with the side issue that the platforms are going to be a significant factor in leading to earlier vertical kills. There's overall less variety in ceiling height in brawl than in melee actually.
Anyway, this has been a really good discussion; would this be a good summary?
Brinstar as a stage is an obscure counterpick, and it offers few advantages to Mr. Game & Watch. The bumpy floor gives him the questionable trade-off of more unpredictability and options in exchange for range, and the breakable terrain in the center can be limiting. Also, the acid is an overall detrimental factor to him as it can kill him at high but not unreasonable percentages, and it sometimes leads to him forfeiting positional advantages. However, the pass through floor of Brinstar is useful to Mr. Game & Watch, and while the stage generally doesn't do much to help him, it does more to hurt other characters so it can be a matchup specific counter. While it may be argued that some other stages are more useful, stage bans and regional rules might make Brinstar a good choice for Mr. Game & Watch if he looks to challenge R.O.B., the Ice Climbers, or any member of team Star Fox. Brinstar may be favorable in other matchups still unexplored by the community as well; its ultimate fate as a counter will rest in the individual player. While it is true that it offers a wide range of match affecting factors, the biggest factor of them all on Brinstar is stage familiarity; few players know it well. Even if the stage is academically bad for Mr. Game & Watch in a particular matchup, it may be a golden choice against an opponent who has little experience on the stage. Likewise, if the Mr. Game & Watch player has not refined his ability to exploit the various factors Brinstar brings to the game, he will be seeing a quicker than usual defeat.
[Insert Score]
I move we move on to the next stage soon.