The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

XienZo · Nov 9, 2008

Viper JLT4GOV said:
Too... much... Magikarp. O_o

Its a conspiracy... hurry, someone use Gravity so they'll have to Struggle!

Anyways, I believe Yoshi also has good chance against MK. The results just mean that no one has utilized that chance yet...

Vyse · Nov 9, 2008

XienZo said:
Its a conspiracy... hurry, someone use Gravity so they'll have to Struggle!

Anyways, I believe Yoshi also has good chance against MK. The results just mean that no one has utilized that chance yet...

Despite Yoshi having an advantage against MK, because he has a lack of advantages against other characters, I don't see him shooting up too high in the tier list. Which means there will be a lack of people using him in tournaments.

ShadowLink84 · Nov 9, 2008

Barge said:
Peaches aerials are laggier then marths.
And like you said, his dair and upair are laggy, none of MK's are.

MK's Fair and Bair and Dair and nair are not as fast as Marth's fair.
Nor can they be Di'led out like MK's.

Barge said:
Sonic and jiggly is, Rob not so much, but they can still be gimped easier than metaknight.

Not really. You have to KO them rather than try to gimp.

Barge said:
You even said that he has the best gimp game, which is one of the factors as why hes the best in brawl. That + everything else = ban

magneto is the best in MvC2 but he is not banned.
Just ebcause a character is the best does not consistute a ban. if it ere, then a slippery slope would exist.

Barge said:
Still racks up damage, and if the MK goes up as well, you can't DI up, or am I wrong?

8% -10% not much racking.
You can DI up dude.

Tribalnecktie · Nov 9, 2008

i hate meta knight, i hate playing him and playing as him. as for the banning of him. a big no to that. just because he has that one move thats good doesnt mean he should be banned. ive played multiple ppl that spam that b like insane. like inhumanly insane. and i have trouble beating all of them. but i say banning a charachter because they have a good move is not right. i say ppl should learn how to get out of it. and counter it. i play as lucas so for me its easier then others, as soon as i see him opress b i immidietly up-b and **** him. same thing with marth and ike. heard kids complaining because they can counter things. agin i just up-b with lucas and it always works. I dont play as a whole lot of other charechters but the ones i do play with i dont have huge trouble beating meta knight.

<-- just my opinion

salaboB · Nov 9, 2008

ShadowLink84 said:
magneto is the best in MvC2 but he is not banned.
Just ebcause a character is the best does not consistute a ban. if it ere, then a slippery slope would exist.

Let me know when you can make a team consisting entirely of Magneto.

ShadowLink84 · Nov 9, 2008

salaboB said:
Let me know when you can make a team consisting entirely of Magneto.

You don't need to, you have THREE other characters you can do.
You have SIX if you are really good.

Even if you could make a team of only magneto he would still not be banned.

Sephiroth27 · Nov 9, 2008

I've been reading/listening to the debate on whether Metaknight should be banned or not for quite some time now. I gathered alot of the information and did a little research on my own and came to the conclusion that ****, there are alot of Magikarp avatars.

Fletch · Nov 9, 2008

vyse said:
I believe Diddy vs MK is like Melee Falco vs. Marth

So Diddy is at a disadvantage in the matchup?

DRaGZ · Nov 9, 2008

MAGIKARP, use SPLASH!

Great job, MAGIKARP! Follow that up with a SPLASH!

memphischains · Nov 9, 2008

oh ****.

double splash.

thats almost a puddle

hyperhopper · Nov 9, 2008

when a firend palys with me, when one of us goes mk, the other tries to beat it , switches to mk, then says "WHY ARE WE BOTH MK, CAN WE BOTH BAN HIM" and then we play with the other 34 charecters and have much more fun. even in the competitive scene, isnt this just for fun?

its called a GAME for a reason...

ShadowLink84 · Nov 9, 2008

1048576 · Nov 9, 2008

Magikarp, return! Go! DITTO. oh crap

Anyway, if Yoshi countered MK, then we don't have a problem. Three char meta is good enough for me (MK, Yoshi, whoever counters Yoshi best). The problem is Yoshi doesn't counte Meta. It's even on the best Yoshi stages.

ShadowLink84 · Nov 9, 2008

Its roughly 55:45 for MK.

Spire · Nov 9, 2008

ShadowLink84 said:
Its roughly 55:45 for MK.

It's obvious that MK stands for MagiKarp. Magikarp is top tier.

DerpDaBerp · Nov 9, 2008

aeghrur said:
Sonic's U-air has amazing priority too, He can totally beat MK.
Lucario's D-air has amazing priority too, he can totally **** MK.
Link's D-air has good priority, he's a counter to MK. >_>
Yeah, let's not ban MK. LOOK, 3 COUNTERS. >_>

Logic, ur doin it wrong

ShadowLink84 · Nov 9, 2008

THE pieman said:
Logic, ur doin it wrong

Reading comprehension, you lack it.

Vyse · Nov 9, 2008

fletch71011 said:
So Diddy is at a disadvantage in the matchup?

Yes, but it's only slight. I think.
: /

I think as Diddy's get better, it has the potential to become an even more equitable match up.

AndrewCarlson · Nov 9, 2008

ShadowLink84 said:
MK's Fair and Bair and Dair and nair are not as fast as Marth's fair.
Nor can they be Di'led out like MK's.

Just a small nitpick. Meta Knight's N-air comes out on the same frame as Marth's F-air.

Bowser King · Nov 9, 2008

vyse said:
Yes, but it's only slight. I think.
: /

I think as Diddy's get better, it has the potential to become an even more equitable match up.

Seriously? I thoght Yoshi was the best matchup and he's 55:44 MK

- :bowser:

Bowser King

salaboB · Nov 9, 2008

vyse said:
I think as Diddy's get better, it has the potential to become an even more equitable match up.

This all depends on how much banana control MKs can learn against Diddy.

For instance, why do the videos of Japanese Diddys tend to only have one banana out at a time? (The suspicion is their opponents will take banana control away from them if they just throw two out there, so they keep it limited to what they're actively using)

Vyse · Nov 9, 2008

salaboB said:
This all depends on how much banana control MKs can learn against Diddy.

For instance, why do the videos of Japanese Diddys tend to only have one banana out at a time? (The suspicion is their opponents will take banana control away from them if they just
throw two out there, so they keep it limited to what they're actively using)

Yeah, that's the biggest limitation.

vyse said:
Maybe we need to approach this from a different angle.
Rather than look at what Diddy has, let's look at what MK doesn't have for a second.

The obvious thing MK lacks is a projectile of any kind, whilst Diddy Kong has access to his Peanut Gun and up to two bananas at once (unless you're Advent, in which case you have three bananas).

Diddy is an odd character though, since his bananas are used for combo'ing rather than zoning.

On the other hand, Diddy can use bananas to lay traps. Have you ever noticed how a lot of MK's have trouble picking up bananas? I've seen so many MK's walk up to a banana and slip on it when they try to pick them up. So you can almost guarantee one of two things if the banana is between you and MK:

1. They're going to avoid them
2. They're going to dash attack pick them up
3. They're going to try and pick them up normally

For the first scenario, it just begs a peanut gun to the face, which can screw them over and have them fall on the banana. Or even throw another banana at them as they try to avoid the first one on the ground. Either way the fact that there is a banana on the ground between you and MK is something they have to be weary of.

Predict where they're going to go if they're going to maneuveur around the banana.

For number 2, just remember that for all it is, MK's dash attack is still something predictable, and with reasonable lag (reasonable enough for you to punish). It's a matter of baiting their dash to sheild grab them, or hitting them with your own banana.

The third scenario is rather situational (All of this is situational and not to be taken as gospel mind you) sometimes a banana may have bounced off their shield and it's not to hard for them to take the banana, sometimes they'll approach the banana slowly and try to pick it up.

The point is, you can either capitalize on this by punishing their awkward movement towards the banana which they have to remain weary about since it's still in your control, or watch out in case they're trying to bait you.

This is ALL hypothetical, and really just my attempt at trying to keep this thread alive. A breakdown of a common situation that takes place over just a few seconds.

We need to do more. We have to confirm/debunk everything we can. We need FACTS.

And so far, I've pointed out that MK has no projectile, and given good micromanagement, has a difficult time picking up bananas without being punished for it.

Though, I since realised that MK can also land on the bananas whilst doing an aerial to pick them up as well.

That still gives Diddy an opportunity to abuse the landing lag (Small as it is).

More reading:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201953

ShadowLink84 · Nov 9, 2008

AndrewCarlson said:
Just a small nitpick. Meta Knight's N-air comes out on the same frame as Marth's F-air.

I also mean cool down time. Unlike Marthhe cant use a double aerial other than the Uair.

AndrewCarlson · Nov 9, 2008

ShadowLink84 said:
I also mean cool down time. Unlike Marthhe cant use a double aerial other than the Uair.

But one can also argue that the lingering hitboxes are a good thing, can't they? And yep, I think Meta Knight's U-air is the only aerial that can be performed 3 times in one short hop.

Gindler · Nov 9, 2008

vyse said:
Despite Yoshi having an advantage against MK, because he has a lack of advantages against other characters, I don't see him shooting up too high in the tier list. Which means there will be a lack of people using him in tournaments.

Hmmm, so people won't use him because he's not high enough in the tiers?

What do people only use characters because of their tier placements? :dizzy:

XienZo · Nov 9, 2008

Gindler said:
Hmmm, so people won't use him because he's not high enough in the tiers?

What do people only use characters because of their tier placements?

He means people don't want to use him because he apparently gets run over by G&W and Lucario.

Sleek Media · Nov 9, 2008

Hm. The first character ban in Smash. This was in inevitability, I suppose.

I main Mario, who is designed to be the most well balanced character in the game. I've had the opportunity to play against many competitive players, and I can tell you with certainty that there is a difference between a difficult match up like, say...Game and Watch and a match with Metaknight. The main problem is that Mario is pretty much defenseless against tornado spam. Yeah, there are alot of characters that Mario has a hard time getting around, but none of them are harder to attack, defend against, and out-maneuver than Metaknight.

I play tournaments for fun, and to see other people play a great match with their favorite characters. The very worst thing in Melee was the out of control metagame that forced tactics like wavedashing and L-canceling, and reduced the tournament roster to about five characters. So far, Brawl appears to offer more variety in general tactics and character-specific abilites, allowing even mid tier characters to compete in most situations. I'd like this tournament diversity to continue. If Metaknight will prevent this from happening, then he must be banned in competitive environments for sake of preserving interest in the game.

Serris · Nov 9, 2008

Meta Knight reduces tournament diversity, wrecks half the cast, and is stagnating the meta game. Temporary ban at least, please.

St. Viers · Nov 9, 2008

Name the characters that MK alone causes to be unplayable.

XxBlackxX · Nov 9, 2008

Gindler said:
Hmmm, so people won't use him because he's not high enough in the tiers?

What do people only use characters because of their tier placements?

the same reason many people chose MK. to have better chance of winning competitively.

Gindler · Nov 9, 2008

XxBlackxX said:
the same reason many people chose MK. to have better chance of winning competitively.

Well then, won't people just go to the next best guy?

Most of the people wanting to ban seem to want it because of tourney domination...so the next best would be in the same shoes if they begin to dominate the tourney scene.

XienZo · Nov 9, 2008

Gindler said:
Well then, won't people just go to the next best guy?

Most of the people wanting to ban seem to want it because of tourney domination...so the next best would be in the same shoes if they begin to dominate the tourney scene.

Its not cuz he's at the top, thats tier-whoring.

Cases like MK are special, he's so good people give up their pride and are willing to be called tier-whorers in order to win.

In other words, MK makes you sell your soul.

Monshou_no_Nazo · Nov 9, 2008

Well then, won't people just go to the next best guy?

The next best guy is Snake, but Snake actually has counters and weaknesses, as slight as they might be. In fact, there are multiple next best guys: Snake, DDD, G&W, Falco, Marth, etc...

XxBlackxX · Nov 9, 2008

Gindler said:
Well then, won't people just go to the next best guy?

Most of the people wanting to ban seem to want it because of tourney domination...so the next best would be in the same shoes if they begin to dominate the tourney scene.

no, because the "next best guy", in this case, snake, HAS bad matchups and bad stages, therefore, he CAN be beaten, and be beaten alot. now, MK can be beaten as well, its just that it is much much harder without a "real" counter.

EDIT: also, its not just because of tourney domination, read the first post. the only part i kinda agree on is when he mentioned that people will pick up MK as a counter to MK, and soon, they find that he is good, better than their main, so they switch to MK. soon, more and more people will play MK since they need an answer to other MKs. also MK dittos are sooo boring to watch. >_>

Jaigoda · Nov 9, 2008

It's kind of sad how many noobs have been posting in these past 10 pages or so... People need to lurk more.

*realizes he's an 08'er*

Did I just contradict myself?

XxBlackxX · Nov 9, 2008

Jaigoda said:
It's kind of sad how many noobs have been posting in these past 10 pages or so... People need to lurk more.

*realizes he's an 08'er*

Did I just contradict myself?

were you referring to me >_>?

XienZo · Nov 9, 2008

Jaigoda said:
It's kind of sad how many noobs have been posting in these past 10 pages or so... People need to lurk more.

*realizes he's an 08'er*

Did I just contradict myself?

The only noobs here really are "MK shouldn't be banned, he kills himself with his B moves! Pit should be banned cause his arrows always hits you and he can fly from anywhere!!!!"

Other then that, most of these are legitimate posts.

Gindler · Nov 10, 2008

XxBlackxX said:
no, because the "next best guy", in this case, snake, HAS bad matchups and bad stages, therefore, he CAN be beaten, and be beaten alot. now, MK can be beaten as well, its just that it is much much harder without a "real" counter.

EDIT: also, its not just because of tourney domination, read the first post. the only part i kinda agree on is when he mentioned that people will pick up MK as a counter to MK, and soon, they find that he is good, better than their main, so they switch to MK. soon, more and more people will play MK since they need an answer to other MKs. also MK dittos are sooo boring to watch. >_>

I was thinking more of Gee Dub. He has like 2-3 bad matchups, one being MK and the others being 45-55 at worst. You can't really call 45-55 a "counter", so IDK just thinking out loud.

Yeah I'm an 08'er (smashboards noob :chuckle:

). But I'm not some super noob that says Pit's arrows are OPed and should he should be banned because they're too good in doubles with team attack off...I have some tiny inkling of knowing what I'm talking about

Zankoku · Nov 10, 2008

Gindler said:
I was thinking more of Gee Dub. He has like 2-3 bad matchups, one being MK and the others being 45-55 at worst. You can't really call 45-55 a "counter", so IDK just thinking out loud.

I'm quite sure that Marth has a very clear advantage against Mr. Game & Watch. Snake, as well.

Gindler · Nov 10, 2008

Probably, I just remember seeing their matchup thing a while back (a REAL while back) and they were like 45-55 so I'm just going by that is all

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