Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

No.
They'll just be like lol Meta out prioritizes Sonic everywhere.
I experienced it on their boards a few days ago, don't bother.

And people are suprised at Sonic's airspeed?

He's got horrible aerial acceleration, so basically bad maneuvarablilty, but top speed it's one of the fastest. It's obviously gonna be the fastest with spinshot, because it's basically top speed minus horrible start up acceleration.

Tenki said:

Holy crap, Metaknight's speed is piss poor in the air.

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That's what I've been saying. It's one of his biggest weaknesses. When he goes in the air he becomes hella predictable. Or at least hella punishable.

As ROOOOY! said, Sonic has Awesome airspeed, its just horrible acceleration.

Airspeed: How much distance you can cover in a given time. Changes depending how much you've accelerated. At top speed, it is like Sonics spinshot. Overall its 5th best in the game, but it becomes the best with Spinshop

Aerial Acceleration: How quickly you can change control your horizontal momentum in the air. Like, how quickly can you stop yourself form moving forward, or change direction in the air? How long does it take to reach your max speed? Thats what meants by acceleration. Wario doesn't have the best Airspeed, but he obviously and clearly has the best acceleration, which is why he can weave aerials like crazy.

You acceleration will determine how well you can weave aerials, as weaving is more dependent on how quickly you can change directions, as you have move forward and then backwards before you land. Luigi has second to worst airspeed, yet he can weave aerials much better than Sonic can because of his superior acceleration.

MK is bad at both of these. His acceleration might be a teensy weensy bit better than Sonics but thats about it.

And bring MK mains over here for the most part might be bleh... But there are definitely some helpful ones out there.

MK is quite predictable in the air. Also, all his aerials come out at virtually the same time, so that adds in predictability, although obviously they can delay aerials too.

Terios the Hedgehog said:

That's what I've been saying. It's one of his biggest weaknesses. When he goes in the air he becomes hella predictable. Or at least hella punishable.

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Well, not so much punishable (well, if he's camping for you to come in close instead of waiting for you to enter his range first) as it is 'not continuous'. The biggest 'weakness' stemming from his low airspeed is that you can DI away from his attacks so you don't get juggled as badly as you could be lol.

I know some are resistent but can we get some MK's over here. We've had a while without them and now I think we should include them as well lol.

@#$%...

Meh, I'll go let them know...

*psst* We're all doomed!

I'll make the thread.

I'll make a sandwich.....

Or Tenki can go make it, good thing I saw this before hand...

I'll make a time machine and make the thread before all of you.. nah I'm too lazy to go back in time...
I'll make a sandwich too.

I'll go put some extra Ste...err, I mean "Ham" on mine.

According to hotgarbage, MK's aerials have about 15 frames of landing lag if unfinished.

Cool.

That's punishable by basically...
Everything?
Shame good MK's aren't going to do laggy aerials though D;

Well then those good MK's aren't chasing us down. ^_^

What's the lag frames on the nado?

How does Luigi not destroy Sonic?

Snowstalker said:

How does Luigi not destroy Sonic?

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We learned to shield grab and not spam spindashes, and space with tilts, like decent players?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5680651
Read from there to see Luigi discussion.

@Terios: The lag frames are variable.

Rhyfelwyr said:

I'll have pictures soon. If you want to know how to do it, skip to the end. The rest of this post is explanation.

I'm sure you all know the tornado has a little bit of lag upon finishing and touching the ground. Players with good reflexes have been able to grab Metaknight during this. I've discovered the tornado actually has four different landings. They all depend on the height of Metaknight when the tornado ends. One of these landings of course has no lag.

When I'm explaining these landings, Metaknight is facing to the right.

I. Looking Around Landing
This is done when the tornado ends while grounded. This is his second worst landing.

When Metaknight lands he has his cape. He turns left to look into the distance, and then turns right as he goes into his natural standing position.

II. Wings Into Cape Landing
When Metaknight finishes the tornado while airborne, he'll spin around once with his wings spread out. This landing occurs when you land while he's spinning. This is his second best landing.

From this landing he'll appear looking into the distance with his wings spread out. He'll turn to the right, and the wings turn into a cape.

III. Belly Flop Landing
I already told you how Metaknight spins after finishing the tornado in the air. This landing occurs when Metaknight lands after completing the spin, and dips forward with his feet exposed. This is his worst landing.

It's easy to tell when you have this. Metaknight bounces on his head/stomach/face(?)

IV. Zero Lag Landing
To get this landing, you have to reach ground when Metaknight finishes his spin in the air after the tornado, but before he leans forward for the belly flop. The correct height for this is when the tornado finishes a little bit higher then DK's head.

The beginning of this looks exactly like the second landing. He'll be looking into the distance with his wings out, but instead of turning to the right, he'll skip straight to his standing position. In regular speed you don't notice a thing.

In application you can shield, attack, or even tornado again immediately from touching the floor. This isn't difficult to do once you learn the distance.

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It's interesting to note that if an MK tries to do the 'lagless' landing, they still have to fall. And that's...

well, come on, we chase falling people all the time lol.

Lag, on MK? That's blasphemy!

/+1 post count.

Edit: Oh I have something serious to say... Sure while MAMA LUIGI gets really hungry when he/she/it/potato is pregnant, we still have enough leftover Steak, so Sonic still has a chance to win.

Where were you when we were on MAMA LUIGI?

Snowstalker said:

How does Luigi not destroy Sonic?

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Why would he?

And you're too slow. That discussion was a while ago.

It's 40:60 at the worst IMO. I feel it should be that infact, but it's generally the boards consensus that gets written down.

Snowstalker said:

How does Luigi not destroy Sonic?

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Look back at the discussion. I...kinda skipped that one due to lack of Weegee knowledge. I do know that Sonic can keep the match at the ground. I do fairly well against Weegee actually.

I don't, or at least I wonder if I don't. Luigi isn't as bad if you stay on the ground since you can space with yur tilts.
I have a bad habit of using spincharges and spndashes when pressured through >.<
Been playing with my A button only unless I need to recover to kill my bad sonic habit.

Oddly enough I use mostly A moves as marth and MK. XD

First thing...for your guys' convenience, I have linked a few MK frame data threads here:

M2K's frame data

JimboCav09's frame data


M2K's frame data is a few months older than Jimbo's frame data, and Jimbo's has a lot more data; however, M2K's data is, well, data from M2K, so I suggest looking into both sets of data and comparing results.

ROOOOY! said:

No.
They'll just be like lol Meta out prioritizes Sonic everywhere.
I experienced it on their boards a few days ago, don't bother.

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Dude, most Metas are kinda dumb in that way...if you ask me, there is no matchup that isn't worth discussing; more knowledge is always welcome in my book. Hopefully, there are other Metas who agree with me about this and will take this matchup discussion seriously


I main MK and just picked up Sonic a few days ago, so I figure that I might as well give this a shot. Here's my two cents:

~MK's ftilt has good range and is a great spacing tool; also, it should be difficult for Sonic to punish if MK doesn't complete the ftilt. Uncompleted ftilts can also lead into other things, such as dtilts, dsmashes, etc. The third ftilt has a sizable amount of cooldown lag for Sonic to punish with a dash attack or a dash grab or something, though. There isn't too much of a difference in cooldown lag between uncompleted and completed ftilts, but there is a bit less lag from the uncompleted ones.

~MK's dtilts are extremely fast (he can perform 4 dtilts in one second >.>) and hard to punish...especially out of shield. Sonic could dash away and go for a spinshot, but if MK sees this coming, he might try to utilt Sonic if Sonic tries to spinshot over MK into a bair. I just learned how to spinshot the other day, so I don't know a whole lot about its applications, but maybe you guys could come up with ways to use spinshot to go around MK's tilts...?

~The main issue, obviously, is the fact that MK's disjointed hitbox and great range give Sonic a very hard time. Since Sonic's ftilt comes out pretty quick and is one of Sonic's better moves "rangewise," it might be wise to use more ftilts than you might normally use in this matchup to try and give Sonic a spacing tool of his own. MK's ftilt beats out Sonic's ftilt only ever so slightly in range, so the use of Sonic's ftilt to achieve quick spacing might be an option to consider.

~Don't forget that Sonic has amazing running speed...what I mean by this is:
*Sonic can literally dash away from the tornado (given that Sonic has the space to run). Even if you don't have enough space to completely run from the tornado (which will happen most times), running some distance and shielding after running could save your shield from some of the damage.
*In some situations, dashing away from MK could be used in place of a roll to dodge some of his attacks if you start dashing soon enough. While this wouldn't be happening very often, Sonic could, theoretically, dash away from a completed ftilt, quickly pivot, and dash grab/dash attack for the punish.

I don't have a good amount of matchup experience in this matchup, so all of my comments are based on theory (and some amateur testing in training mode ); in other words, they could and may likely be wrong. However, I thought that trying to contribute would be better than not doing so

Hope that info helps in some way.

Thanks alot dude.

I have a question.

Do MK's tilts push Sonic while he's shielded? I was thinking if MK completes his F-tilt, Sonic could shield grab MK.

Could make for a good approach.

Because your analysis makes it sound like Sonic has a hard time approaching MK.( I don't have alot of MK experience.)

um i dont have a whole lot of exp in the match since i dont play sonic, i only did a few friendlies vs malcolm recently as mk heres what i found

sonic can make himself tricky to hit, mk has to be patient and take advantage of the fact that he generally outranges sonic and his moves generally come out much faster such as dtilt, first hit of ftilt, etc

sonics fair had a surprising amount of speed and priority, i got hit by it at times i didn't expect it to at all

sonics main weaknesses in the match is the fact that mk attacks really fast with decent range and that he is hard to edgeguard. bair and ftilt are sonics main range tools imo but you will usually need bair for kills

also sometimes it is in your best interest to save up uair since it can actually kill mk decently

mks dash grab and dash attack oos are good punishers from a range, just remember that. also alot of mks do the typical spot dodge dsmash bs if you get in killing range

I think both characters will find it risky to edgeguard each other, and sonic is safest dropping springs on mk or trying to bair mk from his up b glide since you will usually clash (glide attacks act wierd, they can clash in the air) and it forces him to land most of the time unless he has gained momentum

sonic is hard to edgeguard just cuz of the speed/invinciblity of his up b

metas up b can be risky to edgeguard due to the speed of it and tendency to stage spike. you should also learn on stage the range of mk's up b's strong hit that can kill deceptively early and tag you when you least expect it

tornado is a good move to force sonic to move but he can get through it pretty decently with his homing attack and he can run away, idk how to describe it but generally nado is best when sonic isn't in a prime position to punish but you need to get away from him and it forces him to evade rather than attack and it alllows you to reposition

mk wins because he can usually control the match with his superior attack speed and generally safer moves plus while sonic may win in edgeguarding mk is better at killing on the stage

mk has to abuse his faster ground moves like dtilt and first ftilt hit and use alot of grabs and make himself not punishable, and i never really try to hit sonic out of his spins unless im wario with bite lol :x

cith: the tilts usually dont push but first ftilt has enough range to be hard to punish when spaced and dtilt is stupidly fast with alot of range attached to it so its pretty difficult to to shield->anything on them

We probably will be using Uair often just because it's disjointed and has some decent vertical knockback to it... it will probably only be killing MK if he is somewhere close to the ceiling, otherwise it doesn't have the K.O. power that other mentionable attacks have...

Other than that, thanks for your imput.

also you might be able to peg mks who dont fight sonic with uthrow spring uair to kill

it took me a little bit to realize you can just hold behind sonic and you go mad far to the side, lol

Rh1thmz said:

First thing...for your guys' convenience, I have linked a few MK frame data threads here:

M2K's frame data

JimboCav09's frame data


M2K's frame data is a few months older than Jimbo's frame data, and Jimbo's has a lot more data; however, M2K's data is, well, data from M2K, so I suggest looking into both sets of data and comparing results.

Click to expand...

I have a personal frame finder person
He has shield stun, safety frames (for ground moves), autocancel frames, landing lag, and all his data apparently coincides with M2K's information.

The only problem is it's not done. But if you're clever, you can find where my data is hiding <3
There's a hint within this post =)

Rh1thmz said:

I main MK and just picked up Sonic a few days ago, so I figure that I might as well give this a shot. Here's my two cents:

1 ~MK's ftilt has good range and is a great spacing tool; also, it should be difficult for Sonic to punish if MK doesn't complete the ftilt. Uncompleted ftilts can also lead into other things, such as dtilts, dsmashes, etc. The third ftilt has a sizable amount of cooldown lag for Sonic to punish with a dash attack or a dash grab or something, though. There isn't too much of a difference in cooldown lag between uncompleted and completed ftilts, but there is a bit less lag from the uncompleted ones.

2 ~MK's dtilts are extremely fast (he can perform 4 dtilts in one second >.>) and hard to punish...especially out of shield. Sonic could dash away and go for a spinshot, but if MK sees this coming, he might try to utilt Sonic if Sonic tries to spinshot over MK into a bair. I just learned how to spinshot the other day, so I don't know a whole lot about its applications, but maybe you guys could come up with ways to use spinshot to go around MK's tilts...?

3 ~The main issue, obviously, is the fact that MK's disjointed hitbox and great range give Sonic a very hard time. Since Sonic's ftilt comes out pretty quick and is one of Sonic's better moves "rangewise," it might be wise to use more ftilts than you might normally use in this matchup to try and give Sonic a spacing tool of his own. MK's ftilt beats out Sonic's ftilt only ever so slightly in range, so the use of Sonic's ftilt to achieve quick spacing might be an option to consider.

4 ~Don't forget that Sonic has amazing running speed...what I mean by this is:
*Sonic can literally dash away from the tornado (given that Sonic has the space to run). Even if you don't have enough space to completely run from the tornado (which will happen most times), running some distance and shielding after running could save your shield from some of the damage.
*In some situations, dashing away from MK could be used in place of a roll to dodge some of his attacks if you start dashing soon enough. While this wouldn't be happening very often, Sonic could, theoretically, dash away from a completed ftilt, quickly pivot, and dash grab/dash attack for the punish.

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1- This is true =]
2- According to the frame data I got, it seems better to just jump OoS to escape if he hits you while you're shielding, since apparently, it has pretty crappy shieldstun (1 frame lol), or if you have amazing reflexes, shield drop and F/D-tilt. If you run into a D-tilt with a shield, then you can screw up his spacing and grab him out of it. On spinshot note, Spinshot> fastfall N-air works too. Or just spinshot > overhead spring lol. Fastbomber.
3- Tilts are good.
4- I think Espy (Puffball64) has videos where an MK would chase after him, and he'd run away and B-air. It was pretty awesome to watch.
4.2- manual dodging is awesome, but so under used D:

thecatinthehat said:

Thanks alot dude.

I have a question.

Do MK's tilts push Sonic while he's shielded? I was thinking if MK completes his F-tilt, Sonic could shield grab MK.

Could make for a good approach.

Because your analysis makes it sound like Sonic has a hard time approaching MK.( I don't have alot of MK experience.)

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F-tilt also apparently has a craptastic 1 frame shield stun on all hits.

I'm trusting his info on this one, so:
If F-tilt is spammed to finish, first hit comes out on frame 3, 2nd hit comes out on frame 12, 3rd hit comes out on frame 21.

BETWEEN hits, if MK wants to do anything else (some non-F-tilt move), there's a 20 frame lag after the first hit, and 31 frame lag after the 2nd/3rd hit.


cool?

superryan said:

mk has to abuse his faster ground moves like dtilt and first ftilt hit and use alot of grabs and make himself not punishable, and i never really try to hit sonic out of his spins unless im wario with bite lol :x

cith: the tilts usually dont push but first ftilt has enough range to be hard to punish when spaced and dtilt is stupidly fast with alot of range attached to it so its pretty difficult to to shield->anything on them

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Grabs are really... Really punishable though :3

well you obviously don't grab when it's gonna miss

I mean he uses grabs to punish you because his dash grab has ******** range

Tenki said:

4.2- manual dodging is awesome, but so under used D:

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Would just like to point out the steakness in this totally awesome allmoostt completely manual dodge:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTLwOlMxJ78

3:37. Steakk.

Puffball hit DMK out of the whorenado with a Bair as well...but like most of the other attacks not named "Up-Angled FSmash", did the Bair hit MK at the top?

Kinzer said:

Puffball hit DMK out of the whorenado with a Bair as well...but like most of the other attacks not named "Up-Angled FSmash", did the Bair hit MK at the top?

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Bair can hit him out, you just have to hit with the end of the foot. Not impossible, but pretty hard without crazy spacing. Easiest way to do it though is with a falling bair.

ROOOOY! said:

Why would he?

And you're too slow. That discussion was a while ago.

It's 40:60 at the worst IMO. I feel it should be that infact, but it's generally the boards consensus that gets written down.

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I think you're blaming some Luigi mains for not knowing how a good Sonic plays when you probably don't play against truly talented Luigis. Some of the reasons I think Luigi has the advantage stem from the fact that both characters have no disjointed hitboxes. Both characters are forced to fight the other on the same terms, and fact of the matter is, Luigi is going to kill sonic about 80% earlier than Sonic is going to kill Luigi. Neither is going to be doing any gimping to the other. Green missile will clank, which you don't want to happen, with any edgeguard attempt you throw out, and Sonic's recovery options are just too hard to gimp as Luigi. It boils down to an odd form of fistfight, and Luigi just kills way earlier. They both have some of the best combo games out there, but Luigi just finishes the job with verticle killers that don't rely on gimping.

Anyway, I'm only posting here because you guys came to the Luigi boards asking for input... If you guys really care about the matchup feel free to challenge my claims and I'm glad to elaborate. There are a ton of people out there who don't know either of these characters, so I can see a lot of crap in this discussion. I would say the matchup is fairly even, no more than 60:40 Luigi. Only because Luigi can actually kill Sonic.

no disjoints yay!

Sonics bair, ftilt, utilt, fsmash, usmash, even jab are slightly disjointed

lol forgot uair

I mean disjointed to the point that it makes a difference in the matchup. No swords. No projectiles.

Or did my sarcasm detector just fail...? O_O

Well while you're here WeegeeKing, do you mind challenging me to a couple of Brawls...asuming it doesn't lag like poo?

I would totally be up for it, except I only get to take the Wii online on weekends. I have satellite at home but all my buddies have high speed, so if you still remember by sometime Saturday hit me up a few hours in advance with a PM. Thats all I can offer, otherwise... I got nothin.

Did anyone mention you can use Hyphen Smash over d-tilt? I dunno if you can, but I have no one to test with

Luigi is over. We'll go through and review problems at the end, unless you want to take this to another thread in which I can update changes when you let me know. Just so long as the character in the title is the one being discussed on the pages.

Wow. I assumed there'd be more Luigi representation.

Just as there aren't too many "great" Sonic mainers out there, there also aren't that many "great" Luigi mainers. So for the sake of argument, I'll assume both sides have not felt what the other is truly capable of. All I have to go on, is that Luigi's biggest problem is opponents with more range than he (disjointed hitboxes and projectiles). Luigi is deadly at close range where his KO options turn from 2 (Missfire, bAir) to 5 (FJP, fSmash, uSmash, bThrow, nAir, dSmash), so Sonic not having ranged attacks sets him at a disadvantge compared to other characters. Jab range is Luigi's "Zona de la Muerte."

It turns into a game of how soon can Sonic build up Luigi's damage before Luigi uncharged Up-Angled fSmashes Sonic in the face. That fSmash is killer, and very spamable against other short-ranged opponents. And I won't ignore the fact that Sonic can space really well and fall back on guerilla tactics.

Gf2tw said:

Did anyone mention you can use Hyphen Smash over d-tilt? I dunno if you can, but I have no one to test with

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Lol, yes, this works. hard to space/time appropriately though.

Lol, just because OS mentioned Dtilt doesn't mean you should worry about it, not saying you were though. Dtilt is barely a concern as opposed to just, MKs aerials lol.

Anyways, MK is much tougher online than he is in person IMO. Because MK spam works way better online, andddd he can buffer moves easily online as well. Sonic on the other hand relies soooo heavily on punishment in this matchup, and getting a running shieldgrab out of MKs miniscule lag is much tougher to do online. But yea, just thought I should mention that incase anyone was gonna go play an MK main to test this out =P.

Fortunately, all of MKs non B moves are quite spotdodgeable. Of course they can just delay, charge, or use the attack twice, but its something you should be aware of. Its not like when ur facing pika and its useless to spotdodge his dsmash lolz.

Since we know MK has ending lag in his moves, and thats where Sonic will get his punishment from, I want to point out the key importance of spacing for Sonic in this matchup. yes, MK has good overall range, but he doesn't have great range on any single move. I'm pretty sure he doesn't have any move that can outrange Sonics ftilt, for example. So as always, use that as a spacing too. Try to keep yourself juussttt outside of his attack range as best you can: if you are right outside of his range, you should be able to run in and grab before he can retaliate after the ending lag from an attack or aerial.

I know I ceaselessly use Puffball's videos as a reference point, but right now they are the best Sonic vs MK vids out there. I noticed how dashdance pivots, or whatever method he uses for pivoting from a foxtrot seemed to work particularly well against MK. Basically, you manually dodge the attack by running away, then insta pivot and punish ending lag with a dash attack or grab.