• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

The Smash Lab: What is it?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Red Arremer

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 27, 2005
Messages
11,437
Location
Vienna
I agree!
So, let me get this straight in my mind:
When Mario, Luigi, and Samus get infinite grabbed, they are barely being grabbed.
So barely that the slightest degradation of Dedede's down Throw would render them free from the infinite, forcing King Dedede to refresh the move in order to keep the infinite alive?
That's exactly what it is. Dedede grabs them just through one single frame. If the throw is stale, the hitstun is shorter, so Dedede loses his advantage just by that one frame, so to say, causing him to miss his regrab.

I think I will try this with the Ice Climbers and other chaingrabbers like Falco during the weekend.
 

Sukai

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,899
Location
turn around....
From what I can tell and tested out, his grab doesn't stale at all. In the video, the the characters who couldn't be infinited simply with a down throw were ones who had more traction than the heavier characters, like Donkey Kong and Bowser.
After viewing this, I tested it myself. But instead of doing it exactly like the person in the video did it, I tried character who shared traits that the Samus, Mario and Luigi have.
That being said, I tested it on Marth, Jigglypuff, and Wario, who all have lighter jumps and/or lots of ground traction. All failed, because they slip too far away, the person who I actually came closest to infiniting was Wario, but I had to dash after him immediately after the throw, the stagger period that Wario has after begin thrown is big enough to accomplish this.
I tested it again with Peach, Ike, Fox, Sonic and Ganondorf, all failed, and Ike and Sonic had the same thing that Wario suffered from. But the one thing that caught my attention was Fox, who just simply fell down after being thrown, in contrast to the other subjects where they landed on their feet and slid but a small distance.
This made me deduced one thing that helped me complete my research, that escaping from an infinte depends on two traits that a character must have.
A. The perfect ground traction.
B. A various range of speed decents/speed of aerial movement.
These are the two factors on why Samus, Mario and Luigi are hard to infinte, because their ground traction, and aerial movement/speed of their decents are within the proper range to just barely get out of an infinite.
Barely. But this was a hypothesis.
Next to continue my research, I picked Luigi and noticed exactly what the video pointed out, so I started to test distance, in terms of if the range got shorter, I get Luigi at the edge of the stage, set perfectly so if he was to fall off, he'll grab the ledge and I'll just press forward to reset his position, I let Dedede stay at a precise point in front of Luigi, indicating his spot by the pattern in the stage. I noticed that Dedede could still grab him at the furthest possible distance, but still could not do an infinite. So with this, the range of the grab is ruled out.
Next, I went to training mode, and I put Luigi and Dedede in the exact same positions they were in before, but this time I set the speed to 2/3.
And I tried it again, at such slow speeds, observation is much easier to the naked eye. I noticed that the time before Dedede's throw and the regrab didn't change at all speed of the regrab wasn't it. I also spotted that the distance never changes after the grab and throw, so distance is also moot. What I did notice, was that Luigi got some free invincibility frames after the throw, thus changing the timing of the throw after a while, but, in the smallest detail, those invincibility frames end at the precise moment Dedede can continue the infinite. His move does not stale, the timing changes ever so slightly, in time, I was able to continously infinite Luigi, even after I turned the speed back to it's default. I tested this on Mario and Samus as well. The timing just simply changes very vaguely. The throw doesn't stale at all.

In conclusion, another reason arises to why infinites are hard to achieve on those three characters, and that is an error in input. This is unavoidable and is on the game's end of mistakes, not the player. Sometime, under a cluster of button mashing or otherwise, the game would only read the guard input first before the attack, thus making the character put up a shield instead of grabbing. This affects the already sensitive timing of performing an infinite on Samus, Mario and Luigi.

Membership plox.
 

Red Arremer

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 27, 2005
Messages
11,437
Location
Vienna
But the one thing that caught my attention was Fox, who just simply fell down after being thrown, in contrast to the other subjects where they landed on their feet and slid but a small distance.
This is simply because Fox has higher falling speed (as he has the highest) than the other characters you tried.
 

Kirk

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 3, 2007
Messages
2,495
Location
Arlington Heights, IL
From what I can tell and tested out, his grab doesn't stale at all...

...I went to training mode and...
You realized what you did here, right? Attacks do not stale at all when in training mode...

In conclusion, another reason arises to why infinites are hard to achieve on those three characters, and that is an error in input. This is unavoidable and is on the game's end of mistakes, not the player. Sometime, under a cluster of button mashing or otherwise, the game would only read the guard input first before the attack, thus making the character put up a shield instead of grabbing. This affects the already sensitive timing of performing an infinite on Samus, Mario and Luigi.
Thats...not a very good argument at all. You can't prove something isn't true because a player can mess up the timing. That's like saying..."DDD's Dthrow kills at 0% off the edge of the stage because the player didn't jump back up to recover."

You need to incorporate the best possible timing to, without any doubt, prove something is possible within the limits of the game itself.

EDIT:
That's exactly what it is. Dedede grabs them just through one single frame. If the throw is stale, the hitstun is shorter, so Dedede loses his advantage just by that one frame, so to say, causing him to miss his regrab.
The "hitlag" is NOT the reason for the frame advantge. It merely offsets the Dthrow 'timeline' by one frame (If anything, since the stale Dthrow has one less frame of hitlag, DDD would be able to act faster in relation to a non-stale Dthrow).

The main reason is that your opponent gets 'thrown' a net total of 1 frame faster during a stale Dthrow in relation to a non-stale Dthrow.

I'm picky, I know... xD
 

Red Arremer

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 27, 2005
Messages
11,437
Location
Vienna
You realized what you did here, right? Attacks do not stale at all when in training mode...
I didn't see that thing you quoted there in the first place, but now that you're pointing it out: Pwned. lol

The "hitlag" is NOT the reason for the frame advantge. It merely offsets the Dthrow 'timeline' by one frame (If anything, since the stale Dthrow has one less frame of hitlag, DDD would be able to act faster in relation to a non-stale Dthrow).

The main reason is that your opponent gets 'thrown' a net total of 1 frame faster during a stale Dthrow in relation to a non-stale Dthrow.

I'm picky, I know... xD
Oh. Okay... Sorry, this is all a little confusing. Thanks for clearing that up. ^^"
 

M.K

Level 55
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Messages
6,033
Location
North Carolina
The "hitlag" is NOT the reason for the frame advantge. It merely offsets the Dthrow 'timeline' by one frame (If anything, since the stale Dthrow has one less frame of hitlag, DDD would be able to act faster in relation to a non-stale Dthrow).

The main reason is that your opponent gets 'thrown' a net total of 1 frame faster during a stale Dthrow in relation to a non-stale Dthrow.

I'm picky, I know... xD
Isn't amazing how just one frame makes a difference?
As a Smash Researcher, I would take the knowledge that applied to King Dedede's Chain-Grab and focus my attention on other characters that have chain grabs, like Falco, Ice Climbers, and Kirby/Wario (to an extent).
With this knowledge, we could unlock hidden possibilities for characters who might have difficulties with match-ups against these chain-throwers, forwarding the meta-game to an unprecedented extent.
 

Sukai

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,899
Location
turn around....
You realized what you did here, right? Attacks do not stale at all when in training mode...
Oh my, you're right. I had to change most of my research around.
Thank you for the correction.

Thats...not a very good argument at all. You can't prove something isn't true because a player can mess up the timing. That's like saying..."DDD's Dthrow kills at 0% off the edge of the stage because the player didn't jump back up to recover."
You misinterpreted it. I didn't say put it under the pretense that the move was already mistimed. Nor did I say that the error in input was the player's fault, I indeed said the opposite. The game would only get part of the input of the grab command, this has happened countless times and happens alot in actual combat (not in training mode, where it barely happens). This has caused me to change my basis of research.
You need to incorporate the best possible timing to, without any doubt, prove something is possible within the limits of the game itself.
I know that.
:P

The "hitlag" is NOT the reason for the frame advantge. It merely offsets the Dthrow 'timeline' by one frame (If anything, since the stale Dthrow has one less frame of hitlag, DDD would be able to act faster in relation to a non-stale Dthrow).

The main reason is that your opponent gets 'thrown' a net total of 1 frame faster during a stale Dthrow in relation to a non-stale Dthrow.
The frame advantage isn't on Dedede's end. Dedede's move falls victim to the invincibility frames that Luigi, Mario and Samus gets.
What I don't get is how hitting them reduces the invincibility frames.
I have put a hypothesis in for study.
Perhaps a grab, attack and throw is under a difference set up for move negation.
For instance.
Throw and Grab attack and throw both have different stale properties, but are the apart of the same set.
hard to explain clearly, but in short, A grab attack and throw has slightly less move negation than just throwing.
I'm picky, I know... xD
I would use the word "picky"
 

SamuraiPanda

Smash Hero
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
6,924
While I'm working on making an admissions list and what not, why not tackle some other issues that arise from what we've learned here? Apparently, Dedede's IASA frames on his dthrow change when the move gets stale... but does that apply to other attacks? If IASA frames change on staling, then that could have rather interesting implications for the game.
 

Sukai

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,899
Location
turn around....
I'll test Fox out.
His airbourne attacks have little to no lag, maybe there is some small change in that at high percentages.
I also want to look into his Illusion and FireFox, see if there is a change in frames
This is going to be interesting.

EDITTO:

While I didn't notice anything in his frame data varying from low to high percentages, I did spot some tidbits about him that can increase the depth to Fox play.

The first thing I noticed is the little trick that was often used in Melee, I don't know what I was called, but pretty much crouching to reduce the stagger frames.
I tested this with Fox of course, but Link was the person delivering the blows, I used only his basic combo.
While crouching, I noticed that 2 or 3 frames were knocked off his staggers. If he gets knocked back considerably, then he will fall and skid on the ground, this works at low percentages and high, but at high percentages this is very high risk as it doesn't protect attacks that send you upwards nor does it help well for attacks with powerful knockback, as these send Fox at a lower trajectory, kind of a cheap way to DI, the problem with this is Fox's fast falling, which will work against him if this happens. I'll test this with and against other characters later, or someone else can feel free to do it.
The second thing I noticed is with his Fox-copter.
Depending on when you perform the forward air, Fox can either Float for the duration of the move, Ascend just a little bit higher, or Descend just a little.
Why/how is this useful. Well I'll do some work and studies on this, because I'm sure there is a use for it, but my main guess is during recovery.
Altering the way you float when off stage can give Fox more options to his already limited recovery details.
For instance using it to float can give Fox a little bit of stalling time, and can easily fend off people who try to chase him. Using it to gain more altitude can be useful for applying that small extra stretch to making it back on stage. And using it to descend slowly can mess up your predictability making your opponent mistime their attacks.
Of course it goes without saying that this is situational, but it expands Fox's options all the more.

I'm gonna enjoy the Lab.
 

Kirk

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 3, 2007
Messages
2,495
Location
Arlington Heights, IL
You misinterpreted it. I didn't say put it under the pretense that the move was already mistimed. Nor did I say that the error in input was the player's fault, I indeed said the opposite. The game would only get part of the input of the grab command, this has happened countless times and happens alot in actual combat (not in training mode, where it barely happens). This has caused me to change my basis of research.
"The game would only get part of the input..." Meaning you, the player, mistimed the grab command. If you input it too early or too late, your shield comes out instead or nothing happens at all. The game doesn't randomly screw with you and only 'sometimes' grab...it is all dependent on when you time it.

The frame advantage isn't on Dedede's end. Dedede's move falls victim to the invincibility frames that Luigi, Mario and Samus gets.
What I don't get is how hitting them reduces the invincibility frames.
I have put a hypothesis in for study.
Perhaps a grab, attack and throw is under a difference set up for move negation.
For instance.
Throw and Grab attack and throw both have different stale properties, but are the apart of the same set.
hard to explain clearly, but in short, A grab attack and throw has slightly less move negation than just throwing.
I never said the advantage was on DDD's end.

And do you mind explaining what you mean here? I'm not sure that I understand what you speak of. Mainly the "falls victim to the invincibility frames" part.

I would use the word "picky"
I would too...that's why I used it...

:O

While I'm working on making an admissions list and what not, why not tackle some other issues that arise from what we've learned here? Apparently, Dedede's IASA frames on his dthrow change when the move gets stale... but does that apply to other attacks? If IASA frames change on staling, then that could have rather interesting implications for the game.
The IASA frame of the Dthrow technically didn't change as the move got stale. The reduction in hitlag is to blame here. If by 'change' you mean the actual frame of the stale DThrow relative to the non-stale Dthrow, then yes, the IASA frame is one frame sooner in the stale Dthrow.

But, DDD and his opponent are both still in the same place on the Dthrow 'timeline' immediately after the hitlag ends...stale or non-stale, making the change in the IASA frame mean nothing really...

BUT, in this particular case with DDD's Dthrow, the change in the frames (that frame advantage) happened sometime between the end of the hitlag and the start of your opponent being 'thrown,' and only to the opponent.

This would be the thing to look for in other attacks: to see if there are any change in frames of your opponent in relation to you, the attacker, during the attack animation.

/picky
 

Red Arremer

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 27, 2005
Messages
11,437
Location
Vienna
Isn't amazing how just one frame makes a difference?
As a Smash Researcher, I would take the knowledge that applied to King Dedede's Chain-Grab and focus my attention on other characters that have chain grabs, like Falco, Ice Climbers, and Kirby/Wario (to an extent).
That's what I said... <_<"

If you want to check out the other chaingrabbers, you're welcome to do so. I might try the suggestion Gheb made about MK's DTilt, then.
 

Adapt

Smash Lord
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
1,489
Location
NS, Canada
DDD's chaingrab is different from Falco's because Falco's d-throw has knockback growth with damage. It is more straight forward imo. It can never be a true infinite.

I don't think Wario's d-throw has growth though. That may be one to look into.
 

Red Arremer

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 27, 2005
Messages
11,437
Location
Vienna
DDD's chaingrab is different from Falco's because Falco's d-throw has knockback growth with damage. It is more straight forward imo. It can never be a true infinite.
It still would be interesting, nevertheless. Y'know trying over studying.

I don't think Wario's d-throw has growth though. That may be one to look into.
Since I mainly play as Wario, I think that's a thing for me to do. As said, I will check that out during the weekend.
Albeit I haven't got the proper equipment for making pictures or videos - I'll try to find out something new nevertheless.

So, I guess it'll be a busy weekend. lol
Wario, MK and maybe Falco.
 

Sukai

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,899
Location
turn around....
And do you mind explaining what you mean here? I'm not sure that I understand what you speak of. Mainly the "falls victim to the invincibility frames" part.
That was a figure of speech pretty much meaning that that is the reason he cannot grab them again is the small invincibility frames given to them after being thrown.
 

Kirk

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 3, 2007
Messages
2,495
Location
Arlington Heights, IL
I don't think Wario's d-throw has growth though. That may be one to look into.
It does have growth. It was one of the other throws I looked into briefly. They go flying at 999%. :p

If you want a throw that has set knockback, go for Ness' Fthrow. Though that throw doesn't have any hitlag at all...and I didn't notice any other changes between it being stale and non-stale (i.e. IASA offset, opponent launch frame, tumble frames, etc.) other than the damage given. Though someone can go right ahead and take another look if they'd like. :D

EDIT:
That was a figure of speech pretty much meaning that that is the reason he cannot grab them again is the small invincibility frames given to them after being thrown.
This can be tested very easily...but I am at work so I cannot at the moment. However, my guess would be that that wouldn't be the case...though if anyone can prove true or not then more power to ya. :D
 

Mmac

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 8, 2008
Messages
1,967
Location
BC, Canada
Yeah, Wario's Dthrow has a Knockback Growth. That's why he needs the victim to be slightly damaged before starting the CG, and why they can escape after a certain percent. The CG is still being debated whenever or not it works though.
 

M.K

Level 55
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Messages
6,033
Location
North Carolina
Yeah, Wario's Dthrow has a Knockback Growth. That's why he needs the victim to be slightly damaged before starting the CG, and why they can escape after a certain percent. The CG is still being debated whenever or not it works though.
I've heard that you must have split second timing with some characters, and with others it only works for a merely 3 grabs.
Does Lucario's Force Palm count as a "chain grab/throw"?
 

Lord Viper

SS Rank
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Messages
9,023
Location
Detroit/MI
NNID
LordViper
3DS FC
2363-5881-2519
How long is this contest SamuraiPanda? It's almost been a week so that's why I'm asking, lol.

 

ph00tbag

C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
7,245
Location
NC
While I'm working on making an admissions list and what not, why not tackle some other issues that arise from what we've learned here? Apparently, Dedede's IASA frames on his dthrow change when the move gets stale... but does that apply to other attacks? If IASA frames change on staling, then that could have rather interesting implications for the game.
Point of order, IASA frames stay exactly the same. It's the post-hitlag throw frames that are reduced. Relative to hitlag's end, DDD's IASA frames stay exactly the same, but the throwee "leaves" his grip exactly one frame earlier. So DDD's grab comes out one frame too late.

This is one of those things that it will probably be up to labbers to name. We might as well come up with a name here for that duration for the throwee between "hitlag" and the tag coming up, because apparently it is a significant part of the animation.
 

Red Arremer

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 27, 2005
Messages
11,437
Location
Vienna
If that's the case, then why is the OP the same, lol.

Because someone isn't able to read further into the thread. SP stated only one page ago that he's working on the list of people who naturally will be put into the lab, and that we - the "trainees" (as someone fittingly called us) - can research other stuff meanwhile.

Here the post:
While I'm working on making an admissions list and what not, why not tackle some other issues that arise from what we've learned here? Apparently, Dedede's IASA frames on his dthrow change when the move gets stale... but does that apply to other attacks? If IASA frames change on staling, then that could have rather interesting implications for the game.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
DDD's CG is a true infinite on all 5 characters. The diminished throw only effects DDD before 50% when he isn't able to get a grab attack out. But once he can it's to death. Before that it's five standing grabs which lead into the chain grab or back throw which almost always adds up to 50 or so. You just can't start it directly from 0.

Cyan name plz.
If u watched the vid, it shows all that, so it's kinda information that's old. Definitely some sort of diminish, because all the influences of decay (dying, refreshing, decaying) have been shown in the video. I think it has nothing to do with "delay", because the grab frame is exact (I think) according to the video. It's either speed (which I have more faith in, as I will explain below), or inability to grab (due to change in thrown char's hurtbox/trajectory). Here's why I think it's speed of grabbed character that's more of the reason. I used a stop watch (which had milliseconds compatable), and I started and stopped on three different scenarios:

-Grab (non-decayed), dthrow, and fail on regrab (control test) (stopped when thrown character stops moving)
-Grab (non-decayed), dthrow, and successfully regrabbed (stopped at time of grab)
-Grab (decayed), dthrow, and fail on regrab (once again, stopped when thrown character stops moving)
I did each 4 times, to have consistency. Here are the results:
-about .74 seconds on throw one (control)
-about .69 seconds on throw two (non-decay, regrab)
-about .69 seconds on throw three (decayed, failed regrab)

So basically, I saw a change of speed on the character moving, and moved away from danger in the same amount of time that D3 would have regrabbed. While some character hit/hurt box changes could influence the results, I think a major contribution is speed of character (as seen by the RESULTS).
-disclaimer: I only tested Samus, didn't test on Mario or Luigi's results, but could prolly find the same results.
Question: If you are a "researcher", do you have to devote LOTS (like LOTS of LOTS) of time to help? Or is it kind of a discussion/ more free flow thing?
 

SCOTU

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
6,636
Location
Northville, MI
Sorry my entry was late, but I figured it was worth it to provide a complete reason for why the DDD CG doesn't work w/o grab attacking on certain characters.

King Dedede has a standing infinite downthrow on 5 characters in the game, but for 3 of those characters (Samus, Luigi, and Mario) his downthrow stales for some reason. You have to throw in grab punches in order to keep it unstale, and continue the infinite (see this video for more details on Dedede's infinite throws: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23UyrHXK36A ). So the challenge I'm setting forth for you all is to figure out how Dedede's downthrow stales when he does the infinite grab. What becomes stale? The speed of the regrab? The distance it sends them? The range of the grab? As far as I know, this question remains unanswered to this day, so even I have no idea how this works.
Full Explanation:

When DDD dthrows his opponent, he hits them with his ***, and while the amount of hitlag changes depending on if it's stale or not, this doesn't make a difference, because once that hitlag is done, they're at the same point in the throw animation.

However, the frame that hitlag is done on this *** attack, the throwee is hit by the puff of wind generated by DDD's *** hitting the ground. This hit is responsible for the knockback that lets DDD chainthrow. If you look in training mode, this is the 2nd of 2 hits that DDD's dthrow deals, you can also see the percents change twice if you view it frame by frame.

This asswaft is a "projectile", and not part of DDD, so DDD does not recieve hitlag from this hit. HOWEVER, the Throwee DOES recieve hitlag. Moreover, the throwee recieves less hitlag from the stale waft, than the fresh waft. Since the throwee is in less hitlag from the stale waft in relation to the fresh waft, while the DDD recieves no difference (he does not receive hitlag from it regardless), the samus starts moving away from the DDD earlier in relation to the DDD's throwing animation, thus avoiding the infinite CG.
 

GimR

GimR, Co-Founder of VGBootCamp
Joined
Nov 2, 2006
Messages
5,602
Location
Maryland
NNID
VGBC_GimR
I've already requested to be in the smash lab. I'm not expecting an answer until this contest is over. (I'm not doing this contest because I don't have time AT THIS MOMENT to test it. Also, not to sound like a jerk, I really don't care about D3's standing chain grab.

Check out my channel, there are some cool discoveries there:

http://www.youtube.com/user/GodismyRock89
 

Kirk

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 3, 2007
Messages
2,495
Location
Arlington Heights, IL
Sorry my entry was late, but I figured it was worth it to provide a complete reason for why the DDD CG doesn't work w/o grab attacking on certain characters.



Full Explanation:

When DDD dthrows his opponent, he hits them with his ***, and while the amount of hitlag changes depending on if it's stale or not, this doesn't make a difference, because once that hitlag is done, they're at the same point in the throw animation.

However, the frame that hitlag is done on this *** attack, the throwee is hit by the puff of wind generated by DDD's *** hitting the ground. This hit is responsible for the knockback that lets DDD chainthrow. If you look in training mode, this is the 2nd of 2 hits that DDD's dthrow deals, you can also see the percents change twice if you view it frame by frame.

This asswaft is a "projectile", and not part of DDD, so DDD does not recieve hitlag from this hit. HOWEVER, the Throwee DOES recieve hitlag. Moreover, the throwee recieves less hitlag from the stale waft, than the fresh waft. Since the throwee is in less hitlag from the stale waft in relation to the fresh waft, while the DDD recieves no difference (he does not receive hitlag from it regardless), the samus starts moving away from the DDD earlier in relation to the DDD's throwing animation, thus avoiding the infinite CG.
Nice.

This would make sense. We knew that there was 1 frame somewhere being lost in the stale Dthrow after the hitlag, and this would seem to explain it...

However I just have one question: how did you come to this conclusion? When I look back at my clips, I can see, after the hitlag, the opponent moving up and down inside of DDD's body before being released to the side. I discounted this as hitlag because it didn't look right to me.

From what I observed, you are right, there is a second hit after the initial hit. And you can visibly see your opponent 'stunned' after this hit for about 2 frames. However, it is the same duration before they start moving/jumbling again inside of DDD with a stale and a non-stale throw. The 1 frame difference comes after this...

To reiterate my question...I guess I just want to know what that period in between the hitlag and when your opponent gets thrown is. Maybe it is in fact more hitstun/hitlag and you can explain why it is. But to me it doesn't seem like it.
 

shadowtroop

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
631
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
*New Subject*

Is hacking discussed/accepted in the smash lab?

What could be changed to make 6 player FFA's possible?

I say stages, because changing the layout to allow 6 spawn locations, and graphic/sound quality reduction, may work...
 

SCOTU

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
6,636
Location
Northville, MI
The frame after DDD's hitlag is done, the throwee is hit again, starting the hitlag of the waft hit. A Fresh waft has 7F hitlag, and a stale one has 6F hitlag. The moment the throwee is out of this hitlag, they begin to move horizontally. Before they move horizontally, they are in the same animation frame the whole time. From what it looks like, they are pushed upwards and off the ground by DDD being in the same place (which is what causes this bouncing up/ down effect). One more thing to note: on the last frame of hitlag on the fresh waft, the throwee actually descends from their upward push, starting them lower before they move, unlike the stale waft, which they start higher in the air. I'm guessing that's what causes the different launch angle too.

Edit: Revamped Full Description of the DDD dthrow Fresh vs Stale:

When DDD dthrows his opponent, he hits them with his ***, and while the amount of hitlag changes depending on if it's stale or not, this doesn't make a difference, because once that hitlag is done, they're at the same point in the throw animation.

However, the frame that hitlag is done on this *** attack, the throwee is hit by the puff of wind generated by DDD's *** hitting the ground. This hit is responsible for the knockback that lets DDD chainthrow. If you look in training mode, this is the 2nd of 2 hits that DDD's dthrow deals, you can also see the percents change twice if you view it frame by frame.

This asswaft is a "projectile", and not part of DDD, so DDD does not recieve hitlag from this hit. HOWEVER, the Throwee DOES recieve hitlag. Moreover, the throwee recieves less hitlag from the stale waft, than the fresh waft. Since the throwee is in less hitlag from the stale waft in relation to the fresh waft, while the DDD recieves no difference (he does not receive hitlag from it regardless), the samus starts moving away from the DDD earlier in relation to the DDD's throwing animation, thus avoiding the infinite CG.

One more thing to note is that the throwee is pushed upward into the air during the waft hitlag (presumably by DDD's presence). The extra frame of hitlag caused by the waft being fresh allows the throwee to begin descending right before the hitlag wears off, giving them a lower launch angle than that of the stale waft (which doesn't get a frame to descend).
 

ph00tbag

C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
7,245
Location
NC
Sorry my entry was late, but I figured it was worth it to provide a complete reason for why the DDD CG doesn't work w/o grab attacking on certain characters.



Full Explanation:

When DDD dthrows his opponent, he hits them with his ***, and while the amount of hitlag changes depending on if it's stale or not, this doesn't make a difference, because once that hitlag is done, they're at the same point in the throw animation.

However, the frame that hitlag is done on this *** attack, the throwee is hit by the puff of wind generated by DDD's *** hitting the ground. This hit is responsible for the knockback that lets DDD chainthrow. If you look in training mode, this is the 2nd of 2 hits that DDD's dthrow deals, you can also see the percents change twice if you view it frame by frame.

This asswaft is a "projectile", and not part of DDD, so DDD does not recieve hitlag from this hit. HOWEVER, the Throwee DOES recieve hitlag. Moreover, the throwee recieves less hitlag from the stale waft, than the fresh waft. Since the throwee is in less hitlag from the stale waft in relation to the fresh waft, while the DDD recieves no difference (he does not receive hitlag from it regardless), the samus starts moving away from the DDD earlier in relation to the DDD's throwing animation, thus avoiding the infinite CG.
Wow, I feel stupid. I noticed the two consecutive hits for DDD's dthrow, and I noticed that the only knockback came from the second one. I just didn't put two and two together afterwards. Good work on figuring this out.
 

Kirk

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 3, 2007
Messages
2,495
Location
Arlington Heights, IL
Alright...I can now say, without a doubt, that what Scotu explained holds true. We knew before that a stale Dthrow threw your opponent one frame sooner, and now we know the exact reason.

Just a small correction, the hitlag for the second hit for a non-stale/stale Dthrow is in fact 5/4 frames respectively. It's the same amount of hitlag as the first hit.

If anyone would like, I can upload a video showing proof of the explanation.

It was right in front of us the whole time... xD
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
Sorry my entry was late, but I figured it was worth it to provide a complete reason for why the DDD CG doesn't work w/o grab attacking on certain characters.



Full Explanation:

When DDD dthrows his opponent, he hits them with his ***, and while the amount of hitlag changes depending on if it's stale or not, this doesn't make a difference, because once that hitlag is done, they're at the same point in the throw animation.

However, the frame that hitlag is done on this *** attack, the throwee is hit by the puff of wind generated by DDD's *** hitting the ground. This hit is responsible for the knockback that lets DDD chainthrow. If you look in training mode, this is the 2nd of 2 hits that DDD's dthrow deals, you can also see the percents change twice if you view it frame by frame.

This asswaft is a "projectile", and not part of DDD, so DDD does not recieve hitlag from this hit. HOWEVER, the Throwee DOES recieve hitlag. Moreover, the throwee recieves less hitlag from the stale waft, than the fresh waft. Since the throwee is in less hitlag from the stale waft in relation to the fresh waft, while the DDD recieves no difference (he does not receive hitlag from it regardless), the samus starts moving away from the DDD earlier in relation to the DDD's throwing animation, thus avoiding the infinite CG.
This would very well explain my results, despite no lag from the grab animation itself, just the throw animation still being in effect while the character is still moving. That's why I got .69 seconds from the fresh to regrab throw, as well as the .69 seconds on the decayed throw where he fails to regrab (and .74 for the control, fresh throw, but failed regrab).
Good work, some stuff that I don't think most ppl would have come up with. It would be nice if some people could get tested results instead of just theoretical "blah blah". I am all for this, but I wish that ppl earlier could do testing. Research is more than theoretical, it has to have support (not to be braggy, but the data I got was a good example of at least rudementary testing).
 

itsthebigfoot

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
1,949
Location
ventura county CA
The frame after DDD's hitlag is done, the throwee is hit again, starting the hitlag of the waft hit. A Fresh waft has 7F hitlag, and a stale one has 6F hitlag. The moment the throwee is out of this hitlag, they begin to move horizontally. Before they move horizontally, they are in the same animation frame the whole time. From what it looks like, they are pushed upwards and off the ground by DDD being in the same place (which is what causes this bouncing up/ down effect). One more thing to note: on the last frame of hitlag on the fresh waft, the throwee actually descends from their upward push, starting them lower before they move, unlike the stale waft, which they start higher in the air. I'm guessing that's what causes the different launch angle too.

Edit: Revamped Full Description of the DDD dthrow Fresh vs Stale:

When DDD dthrows his opponent, he hits them with his ***, and while the amount of hitlag changes depending on if it's stale or not, this doesn't make a difference, because once that hitlag is done, they're at the same point in the throw animation.

However, the frame that hitlag is done on this *** attack, the throwee is hit by the puff of wind generated by DDD's *** hitting the ground. This hit is responsible for the knockback that lets DDD chainthrow. If you look in training mode, this is the 2nd of 2 hits that DDD's dthrow deals, you can also see the percents change twice if you view it frame by frame.

This asswaft is a "projectile", and not part of DDD, so DDD does not recieve hitlag from this hit. HOWEVER, the Throwee DOES recieve hitlag. Moreover, the throwee recieves less hitlag from the stale waft, than the fresh waft. Since the throwee is in less hitlag from the stale waft in relation to the fresh waft, while the DDD recieves no difference (he does not receive hitlag from it regardless), the samus starts moving away from the DDD earlier in relation to the DDD's throwing animation, thus avoiding the infinite CG.

One more thing to note is that the throwee is pushed upward into the air during the waft hitlag (presumably by DDD's presence). The extra frame of hitlag caused by the waft being fresh allows the throwee to begin descending right before the hitlag wears off, giving them a lower launch angle than that of the stale waft (which doesn't get a frame to descend).
ugh, i gotta check smashboards more, i coulda told you about the second hit on the dthrow in may, gg though scotu, you beat me to it. whens the next one of these? I gotta be ready for my next shot.
 

Sukai

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,899
Location
turn around....
Kudos scotu.
But what of when you grab attack and then throw?
Would a similar principle apply, or is like I mentioned, to have a separate stale property?
 

Niko_K

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 22, 2007
Messages
4,797
Location
Oshawa 905
Scotu is a genius. I guess it's an MI thing.

Anther, Lain, and NoJ are coming here tonight <3
 

ph00tbag

C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
7,245
Location
NC
Kudos scotu.
But what of when you grab attack and then throw?
Would a similar principle apply, or is like I mentioned, to have a separate stale property?
It's in the way decay works. If you have a pummel in the grab, at most you'll have five dthrows in the queue, which is one dthrow before the hitlag decays by one frame. Therefore, the hitlag never decays to that point.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom