New creative ways to combo -video-

Z1GMA · Nov 26, 2008

I made a vid of a few cool ways to combo using bouncing and forced rising/forced get up.

How and when it works:
It starts with an Utilt at very low %'s
If you Utilt a grounded Pikachu at 0 to 5% he will stay grounded, but as soon as he reaches 6%+ he will bounce up a little. (Jiggly starts bouncing up at 5% and Bowser at 11%)
When the opponent hits the ground again you quickly Jab or Ftilt him which will cause him to bounce and then force him to rise up.
(Down angeled Ftilt works better than normal Ftilt against some characters)

You can also Ftilt them after the jab bounce for yet another bounce.

(It can be escaped by airdoging while falling from the Utilt, or tech'd when hitting the ground.)
But the window is pretty small at low %'s.
_______________________

Possible combos:
* represents the bouncing animation.
^ represents forced rise up. (This is where you want to hit them in the get up lag.)

I use uncharged Fsmash & down angeled Ftilt for the damage calculations below
Utilt * Jab *^ Fsmash --- 29%
Utilt * Ftilt *^ Fsmash --- 36%
Utilt * Jab * Ftilt *^ Fsmash --- 39%
Utilt * Jab * Ftilt *^ Jab cancel -> Dtilt --- 43%
Utilt * Jab * Ftilt *^ Charge shot (fully charged)--- 51%
Utilt * Jab * Ftilt *^ Utilt -> Up+B --- 51%
Utilt * Jab * Ftilt *^ SHFF zair -> DA -> Up+B --- 52%
Utilt * Jab * Ftilt *^ SH Dair -> Jab cancel -> Dtilt --- 58%
(These are just a few, and they work on ALL characters)

Jab lock:
Also some characters can be jab locked using only jab cancel.
(However the lock gets less effective at higer %'s and at very high %'s it won't work at all.)
Jab lock works on:

easy

easy

Medium

hard

hard
____________________________

Video:
< Samus bouncing combos >
____________________________

More setups

Rohins said:
utilt at low % (this thread's setup)
dair at mid %
nairing someone off platform at low %
homing missile someone off a platform at *any %
high % non-sweetspot zair

ll Mafia ll · Nov 26, 2008

You can roll...
Therefore.... no combo?

Yeah.

It isn't a forced rising like that... the only forced rising in which people only have one option is a footstool. (Used by IC's in chaingrabs)

So, rolling negates it all.

Crystanium · Nov 26, 2008

Z1GMA said:
I made a vid of a few cool ways to combo using bouncing and forced rising/forced get up.

How and when it works:
It starts with an Utilt at very low %'s
If you Utilt a grounded Pikachu at 0 to 5% he will stay grounded, but as soon as he reaches 6%+ he will bounce up a little. (Jiggly starts bouncing up at 5% and Bowser at 11%)
When the opponent hits the ground again you quickly Jab or Ftilt him which will cause him to bounce and then force him to rise up.
(Down angeled Ftilt works better than normal Ftilt against some characters)

You can also Ftilt them after the jab bounce for yet another bounce.

Some characters can be bounced a few times in a row using only jab cancel.

If the opponent has too high % when you Utilt him the window of escaping gets bigger.
Bowser for example can tech efter getting Utilted at 11% but the window is pretty small.
_______________________

Possible combos:
* represents the bouncing animation.
^ represents forced rise up. (This is where you want to hit them in the get up lag.)

I use uncharged Fsmash & down angeled Ftilt for the damage calculations below
Utilt * Jab *^ Fsmash --- 29%
Utilt * Ftilt *^ Fsmash --- 36%
Utilt * Jab * Ftilt *^ Fsmash --- 39%
Utilt * Jab * Ftilt *^ Jab cancel -> Dtilt --- 43%
Utilt * Jab * Ftilt *^ Charge shot (fully charged)--- 51%
Utilt * Jab * Ftilt *^ Utilt -> Up+B --- 51%
Utilt * Jab * Ftilt *^ FF zair -> DA -> Up+B --- 52%
Utilt * Jab * Ftilt *^ SH Dair -> Jab cancel -> Dtilt --- 58%

These are just a few.

Video:
< http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysauJta3A-E >

The Jab * Jab * Jab * Jab * Jab * is pretty hard to perform on MK as seen in the vid,
but very easy on big characters.
_____________________

There you have it! ... Any thoughts?

Some attacks like the dash to Screw Attack can already be performed by other methods that may be more reliable, such as z-air. Other than that, good video.

Z1GMA · Nov 26, 2008

ll Mafia ll said:
You can roll...
Therefore.... no combo?
Yeah.

It isn't a forced rising like that... the only forced rising in which people only have one option is a footstool. (Used by IC's in chaingrabs)
So, rolling negates it all.

You can roll/tech when hitting the ground after the Utilt, but not after the jab or Ftilt which DOES force get up.
There are many other attacks inte the game that forces get up aside from IC's footstool -> Iceblock.

Dryn said:
Some attacks like the dash to Screw Attack can already be performed by other methods that may be more reliable, such as z-air. Other than that, good video.

Yea youre right! But I still think it's pretty cool to get one of those combos in while the opponent is in the get up lag. ( zair -> DA -> Up+B) : )

Tudor · Nov 26, 2008

I was thinking roll would kill it, but still very very cool. Good job dude ^^

0RLY · Nov 26, 2008

This is a setup for a jab lock, but you can airdodge as you fall to prevent that bouncing animation. Your video uses a Lv3 training CPU. Use a Lv7 or higher CPU for all combo testing. Those CPUs actually airdodge ASAP. All of those listed combos are useless compared to a jab lock. Also, at any percentage higher than 2% above the necessary damage needed to cause your foe to pop off the ground, the window to airdodge becomes too easy.

This is ANOTHER example of rock paper scissors in Brawl. I compare almost everything in Brawl to real-time rock paper scissors.

If your foe airdodges before landing - fsmash or utilt
If your foe techs the landing - charged smash or utilt (delay the utilt for like a split second)
If your foe does nothing - jab lock

From my testing, it's most effective to just utilt repeatedly until foe DIs away from you. From there, you can dash attack right as they land.

This is still an amazing find though. Super mad props to you.

xXTACXx · Nov 26, 2008

ive been using this combo with samus for a while now and what i prefer is to useZair once or twice depending on the character and approach with a SH to Utilt, then i Always jab lock :D this at least keepsyou from doing your uptilt all around him like a ****** trying to get 2 consecutive hits on your opponent xD

Crystanium · Nov 26, 2008

I can jab-lock characters like Bowser or King Dedede, but I'm not able to get Zelda/Sheik. I can get Snake, but not Zelda/Sheik, nor Pikachu, nor Meta Knight. How do you jab-lock them?

0RLY · Nov 26, 2008

xXTACXx said:
ive been using this combo with samus for a while now and what i prefer is to useZair once or twice depending on the character and approach with a SH to Utilt, then i Always jab lock :D this at least keepsyou from doing your uptilt all around him like a ****** trying to get 2 consecutive hits on your opponent xD

Says the person with 22 posts and an Oct '08 join date. Your friends must suck if they can't airdodge before landing the utilt.

Dryn said:
I can jab-lock characters like Bowser or King Dedede, but I'm not able to get Zelda/Sheik. I can get Snake, but not Zelda/Sheik, nor Pikachu, nor Meta Knight. How do you jab-lock them?

They can airdodge/tech out of the utilt. To jab lock small characters, you actually have to jab them before they hit the ground. They're small, and Samus' jab has a very small vertical hitbox. It just takes practice. A couple minutes in Training mode on a Lv7+ cpu should do the trick.

Crystanium · Nov 26, 2008

0RLy said:
They can airdodge/tech out of the utilt. To jab lock small characters, you actually have to jab them before they hit the ground. They're small, and Samus' jab has a very small vertical hitbox. It just takes practice. A couple minutes in Training mode on a Lv7+ cpu should do the trick.

Well, I wasn't focusing too much on the u-tilt as I was the jab-lock. I can hit the smaller opponents once, and that's it. Zelda/Sheik is just too thin.

Sago · Nov 26, 2008

tac is a good player and plays good players if it works for him then im impressed and will attempt this weekend

MRS1 · Nov 26, 2008

This looks dope, Thanksgiving is being very good to Samus. Thanks for the find Z1GMA.

Z1GMA · Nov 27, 2008

0RLy said:
But you can airdodge as you fall to prevent that bouncing animation. Your video uses a Lv3 training CPU. Use a Lv7 or higher CPU for all combo testing.

All characters can airdodge or tech after being hit by the Utilt, but the window is pretty small for some characters, Bowser, Snake etc..

0RLy said:
All of those listed combos are useless compared to a jab lock.

I agree they are.. but on characters that can't be jab locked it's at least something =/

0RLy said:
at any percentage higher than 2% above the necessary damage needed to cause your foe to pop off the ground, the window to airdodge becomes too easy.

On some characters yes, There's a huge difference in Utilting a jiggly at 5% and one at 7%.. (it sux overall against Jiggly btw)
But for heavys the difference is smaller.

*edited
Thanks everyone for the kind replies ~

tha_carter · Nov 27, 2008

Ive already mentioned this as a technique.

You can also U-tilt>Grab. It will grab them out of the air because of how close they are, and the grab animation lingers long enough so even if they dodge, they'll be grabbed.

KingChaos · Nov 27, 2008

as long as the opponent fails to tech roll this could be very sexi.Next time i get to play i will practice my up tilt combos.

Rohins · Nov 27, 2008

Hmm I like it. I think the window for air dodge is pretty forgiving but the point is this is a nice setup. There's a nice big visual cue for you to know it worked too (the bizounce).

Great find.

You got me experimenting with dair since it can produce a similar effect at higher percents. Pika at 31% can setup for this but the window for airdodging is even higher O_o

Z1GMA · Nov 27, 2008

Rohins said:
You got me experimenting with dair since it can produce a similar effect at higher percents. Pika at 31% can setup for this but the window for airdodging is even higher O_o

Cool.. I just tried it on a Lv7 Snake. He popped up at 39% then I jab locked him all the way across FD and fininished with a half charged Fsmash during the forced get up lag.. which killed him at 90% ^^

Pretty cool even though it's very situational ;P

Rohins · Nov 27, 2008

Z1GMA said:
Cool.. I just tried it on a Lv7 Snake. He popped up at 39% then I jab locked him all the way across FD and fininished with a half charged Fsmash during the forced get up lag.. which killed him at 90% ^^

Pretty cool even though it's very situational ;P

I might sound nub, but I didn't know about the forced getup xD Got me experimenting with other jab lock setups. Right now I only know 4.

utilt at low % (this thread's setup)
dair at mid %
nairing someone off platform at low %
homing missile someone off a platform at *any %

You got me messing with homing-> jab-> ftilt-> *wait for getup* fully charged blast at low %s on battlefield. That and although I doubt people would let this work but homing missile->jab->*wait for getup* fullycharged blast at high %.

Interesting food for thought you've provided.

Z1GMA · Nov 27, 2008

Rohins said:
I might sound nub, but I didn't know about the forced getup xD Got me experimenting with other jab lock setups. Right now I only know 4.

utilt at low % (this thread's setup)
dair at mid %
nairing someone off platform at low %
homing missile someone off a platform at *any %

^ Nice setups! I'll quote these in the OP : )

However "homing missile someone off a platform at *any %" The lock + the forced get up will stop working at higher %'s =/

*edited

0RLY · Nov 27, 2008

Z1GMA said:
All characters can airdodge or tech after being hit by the Utilt, but the window is pretty small for some characters, Bowser, Snake etc..

Rock Paper Scissors...

I agree they are.. but on characters that can't be jab locked it's at least something =/

I take that back, your combos are more useful if you're closer to the ledge.

On some characters yes, There's a huge difference in Utilting a jiggly at 5% and one at 7%.. (it sux overall against Jiggly btw)
But for heavys the difference is smaller.

So why is comboing Link and Fox harder?

Z1GMA · Nov 27, 2008

0RLy said:
So why is comboing Link and Fox harder?

Comboing Link & Fox isn't harder, at least not much... But the "lock" on the other hand is harder. It somehow takes better timing than locking Bowser for examlpe. Their bouncing animation seems to be a little faster. Also the frame Size while lying on the ground seems to play a role.

But I'm not sure..

But my testing may not be entierly accurate ^^
I'd be glad to hear other opinions of which characters are easy/hard to lock.

EDIT: last hit of Fair at mid %'s seem to work as a setup too.
Also ledge hop Fair/Dair : )

Rohins · Nov 29, 2008

Z1GMA YOU'RE A GENIUS.

OK I'll tame my excitement. A little. Basically the idea of forcing stand up is sexy. I figured out another setup that is pretty sick and can "reliably kill". It is...

(assuming no airdodge / tech before they land lol)

high % non-sweetspot zair

To make it work use 0RLy's fast fall zair.

Here are the two characters I tested it on:

Meta Knight at 103%
Donkey Kong at 122%

Here's what you do:

Close up, do a zair. Run / walk to chase, jab once after they bounce. Fire fully charged blast so they wake up in the hitbox.

I guess you could technically just fire the charged blast but it's a waste if you miss. If they react you don't waste a charge blast but if you land the hit it is a *guaranteed charge blast.

*I'm testing this forced getup stuff in training mode so please don't take turns ****** my skull if this isn't applicable vs humans.

Z1GMA · Nov 29, 2008

You make me blush (@^_^@)

Good job Rohins! You took it to the next level.
Very nice!

DelxDoom · Nov 29, 2008

This is all kinda old Melee stuff except for the jab lock stuff which is kinda old anyway (started with Falco's laser lock on like... release day haha) lolz.

It used to be called tap reset. D:

yeah your main problem is people airdodging before they land; the best way to set it up is with a spike into the ground I would think.

n00b · Nov 29, 2008

If only Samus could set this up the way the ICs do.. fthrow to footstool to ice block to jab reset or whatever. :[

VirisKnite · Nov 29, 2008

^ Could a bomb be used for extra hit stun so they don't air dodge?

Dobs1007 · Nov 29, 2008

This is interesting concept good work guys (Z1GMA,Rohins... others) When I get a chance I'll do some experimenting of my own with this.

n00b · Nov 29, 2008

VirisKnite said:
^ Could a bomb be used for extra hit stun so they don't air dodge?

A better way to stop them from air dodging would be to buffer an unplug-your-opponents-controller.

Z1GMA · Nov 29, 2008

VirisKnite said:
^ Could a bomb be used for extra hit stun so they don't air dodge?

Hmm.. I don't think so =/ ...
However I'm looking for a way to setup a spike at the end of the jab lock..
But so far I haven't found any godly ways of doing this.

While heavy character are in the getup lag near the ledge;
Rising fullhop sourspot bair -> Dair is awesome, though it's not a garanteed spike.

Also, while theyre in the getup lag near the edge; SH nair -> nair -> anything or doublejump+anything.

DelxDoom · Nov 30, 2008

yeah well.
smash missile -> dair spike -> tap reset ?
dunno.

n00b is awesome.

illinialex24 · Nov 30, 2008

Del is funny.

Dobs1007 · Nov 30, 2008

OK messing around with this stuff in training mode some setup on big characters is fast fall uair into utilt then jab lock. Smash missile can lead to set up. Basically what it comes down to is an attack that will make you opponent fall down and they have to miss air dodge tech. Haven't found any that can't air dodge or tech out of yet will experiment more.

Z1GMA · Nov 30, 2008

Dobs1007 said:
OK messing around with this stuff in training mode some setup on big characters is fast fall uair into utilt then jab lock. Smash missile can lead to set up. Basically what it comes down to is an attack that will make you opponent fall down and they have to miss air dodge tech. Haven't found any that can't air dodge or tech out of yet will experiment more.

Cool..
As for all of you, keep experimenting and see what crazy stuff you can come up with : )

DelxDoom said:
It used to be called tap reset. D:

Thing is this DOESN'T reset, it makes them bounce instead.

0RLY · Nov 30, 2008

Dair is unreliable for setting this up because Samus has a tendency to FALL REALLY FREAKING SLOW! Charged dsmash has been the most reliable follow up for me. Since it hits even if they do airdodge. My friends don't tech often.

n00b · Nov 30, 2008

Z1GMA said:
Thing is this DOESN'T reset, it makes them bounce instead.

It DOES make them reset. It ALSO makes them bounce. Just because they bounce doesn't mean you should always follow up while they're bouncing. In your videos you tend to do an initial jab lock then ftilt them on the bounce. If you continued jab locking and stopped, they would stand up normally from the bounce. During the stand up animation is when you can charge the fsmash or fire the chargeshot.

I'm pretty sure this is right, because that's how ice climbers reset to grab again..

Z1GMA · Nov 30, 2008

n00b said:
It DOES make them reset. It ALSO makes them bounce. Just because they bounce doesn't mean you should always follow up while they're bouncing. In your videos you tend to do an initial jab lock then ftilt them on the bounce. If you continued jab locking and stopped, they would stand up normally from the bounce. During the stand up animation is when you can charge the fsmash or fire the chargeshot.

I'm pretty sure this is right, because that's how ice climbers reset to grab again..

My bad... I thought reset was when you reset their stance instantly with an attack that doesn't give them the get up animation.. ;P

xXTACXx · Nov 30, 2008

0RLy said:
Says the person with 22 posts and an Oct '08 join date. Your friends must suck if they can't airdodge before landing the utilt.

why would you say something like this, i gave an idea a very good one at that, to get a jab lock combo off you normally would use Utilt twice to give him the perfect % and up for a jab lock but it gets predictable and you start to spam Utilt so by preventing this 2 Zairs and 1 Utilts works wonders, this is just my prefered way that gets me a jab lock every 5th match but suit yourself. i browse the forums and read a lot a dont always have a opinion on things i just like what people have to say and half of the stuff i read on here ive already done in training mode but i do get a lot of ideas like the way this topic is going now with rohins and Zigmas brilliance

ive had a few accounts on this site already but im not a poster so i dont really see point in staying on one account.
I guess i shouldnt post at all <.<

DelxDoom · Nov 30, 2008

tap reset is just when you hit them when they're down, and they are forced to get up without rolling/attacking. in brawl they get a little bounce on the ground, then get up.

spotted · Dec 2, 2008

Hehe nice Z1gma

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