R.O.B. Match-Up Discussion Week #5: Donkey Kong

Go!

First time really trying to contribute imfomation. [>_<]

Should ROB worry much about DK's Cargo Throw againest the stage?

emergency said:

First time really trying to contribute imfomation. [>_<]

Should ROB worry much about DK's Cargo Throw againest the stage?

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No, not really.

Can recover at lower percents, just tech at higher percents. Really..cargo stage spike is unsafe. Walltech > foot stool works with any character and ***** DK hard.

My real synopsis in a bit. Eating dinner and it's hard to think seriously while enjoying tacos.

Lol. Sudai thinks like 5 lifetimes ahead of me. Gar. We wait for real contributations from the DK forums.

and the super smart-addicts in this forum. and others. yes.

Lol yummy tacos.

DK forums think it's in DK's favor 6/4. Dunno honestly. I haven't played this matchup enough to come to a number conclusion.

He does have slightly more range on some attacks and Down-B can be annoying, but camp it out and make him approach. Shieldgrab if he does double B-airs, attack out of shield quickly if he likes doing B-air -> Headbutt mixups. It's not hard to do, but takes a lot of balls.

As for KOing, save the N-air, throw him offstage, and N-air him at like 140%. Works very reliably.

As for dealing damage, Downthrow him a lot. It puts him in a disadvantaged position. 95 times out of 100, he'll try to air dodge back to the ground (where occasionally, he'll go for a Giant Punch if it's fully charged, in which case you can shieldgrab that anyway). Learn to punish him from that position.

Camping him works well, just beware if he grabs the Gyro he has a long glidetoss.

Bair approach can be punished easily, your projectiles ****, easy to spike.

I think DK may be the only character that is actually easier to spike with ROB than someone with a normal spike, say Diddy 0.o

But yeah, nothing notably about DK sept his tilts ****, and if you can punish fast, you're good.

DKs usually try to Up-B as late as possible so that SA frames prevent them from getting spiked. ROB's D-air is a little too telegraphed for spiking reliably if you ask me in any given matchup.

However, it's very easy to punish his Up-B with a N-air offstage and it can reliably outprioritize his Up-B. Do it right, hit either his hand or head, and profit.

A2ZOMG said:

DKs usually try to Up-B as late as possible so that SA frames prevent them from getting spiked. ROB's D-air is a little too telegraphed for spiking reliably if you ask me in any given matchup.

However, it's very easy to punish his Up-B with a N-air offstage and it can reliably outprioritize his Up-B. Do it right, hit either his hand or head, and profit.

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Truth

Sudai said:

it's hard to think seriously while enjoying tacos.

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Ultra Truth

Whatever I think he's easy as hell to spike.

And also Grabs are great on DK since he's so **** big.

Tacos make it so hard to concentrate on work, especially when I live in a city known and envied for its fish tacos.

[temporary pic til the one Sudai has is ...accidentally fixed?!]

EDIT: I AM SO SORRY if this was a ******** post. tell me, and I will take it down accordingly.

Projectiles **** the ape. Gyro out on the stage slows it down alot more than other characters. WoP' ing him is easy as hell, when he recovers spike him pl0x. DK is the easiest to spike with ROB as far Im concerned.

Jmex...I like you.

Anyway.

Advantages:

ROB:
-Camp Happy. DK is a big, slowish target.
-Wins in the air so long as he can keep DK facing him. Even when facing away the BAir's not too big a problem due to not being disjointed while our FAir and BAir are.
-Super Recovery.
-DThrow sets up for some very nice punishing up till mid percents due to DK's similar, downward blind spot and heavy weight.
-DK has a hard time punishing Grab Release > DTilt

DK:
-Easily out ranges us on the ground
-Lives forever with proper DI.
-Can kill us fairly easily due to large strength.
-Super Armor on Giant Punch and DKCopter.


Approach Game
ROB easily makes DK approach due to DK's lack of projectiles and large body. DK has some fairly safe approach options to mix things up with but none that can't be too overwhelming. Be careful trying to punish a poorly spaced BAir against your shield because he can follow it with a UAir which will out speed most things we have out of shield.

Ground Combat
DK has better range than ROB does, but ROB moves more quickly and is disjointed. Despite this, I still feel this aspect of the fight is more in DK's favor than ROB's. When put in this position, it's best to get the DK away asap, preferably in the air. FTilts, DTilts, Glide tossing away, there's a lot of options, you just have to be very careful about it. Just because DK's slower doesn't mean he won't be getting hits in. His "slowness" can be deceptive if you're not used to it and every hit from DK hurts, bad.

Air Game
This part changes oh so much with only positioning between these two. DK on top, ROB wins, ROB on top, DK wins. Level with eachother and both facing away, ROB wins (ROB's bair is what wins this. Disjointed and great spacing tool due to its momentum change ftw); both facing eachother, tricky, DK can reverse giant punch cancel to turn around and BAir us out of surprise, he also has a few other options but from what I've seen, most DKs will retreat here; Both facing the same way, it's fairly even, DK's BAir is longer than ROB's FAir but ROB's fair is disjointed, it's all about who can space better here.

Recovery
When recovering, I tend to just go under the stage to the other side. This avoids pretty much all of DK's edge guard attempts and will keep you from getting caught in DK's Up-B on the ledge a few times.

When DK's recovering, well spaced FAirs will beat his up-b as will well spaced BAirs. DAir works sometimes, but I usually find it's not worth risking DK getting back to the stage due to super armor or just bad timing. Due to DK's almost entirely horizontal recovery, I tend not to chase him too much as he can up-b for super armor whenever he wants from fairly far out. I tend to stay close to the ledge and try to drop him lower and lower with uncharged lasers and gyros, and then from there push him away with BAirs and FAirs.

The Hard Part, Killing
Ok, not the hard part for DK..lol. Killing DK as ROB will be the biggest issue. It's not uncommon for DK to live up to 200% against ROB so long as they have good DI. This is one match where you -need- to save your BAir, NAir, and F/B/UThrow for much higher percents. I really don't have any more advice than that..he's hard to kill. :/

Little Tricks DK Can Do
Up-B to Downsmash
-This has happened to me twice, but its still happened to me. Both times I was around 130% after the up-b and died from the DSmash. There's just something about the up-b at that percent that leads into it and I was unable to air dodge the DSmash in time on either account despite knowing it was going to happen on the second time. I'm not quite sure if I just DI'd it wrong or if it's just really situational, maybe a DK main can fill us in on that.
Reverse Giant Punch
-Ok, no big deal, everyone can reverse their specials. DK can reverse it mid-charge. That's right. He has to actually punch to reverse it, but the super armor combined with the caught-off guard factor means its dangerous. Any time I see a DK charging his punch, I just laser him. It cancels the charging and means he just waste that much time charging. I'm sure you can approach it, but I wouldn't.
Cargo Stage Spike
-Can recover at lower percents, just tech at higher percents. Really..cargo stage spike is unsafe. Walltech > foot stool works with any character and ***** DK hard.


I think I'm done? Avoid being on platforms. Take him to Lylat or Frigate(only if you're comfortadble with the stage size against DK's large range). Oh, and ban Brinstar unless DKs stopped using that and I'm unaware?

That picture is win.

*fixes*

I wonder what CBK thinks of this match-up.

DK doesn't have any super armor on Punch unless it's fully charged btw.

His Up-B only moves forward on the ground IIRC, so I guess DI behind him if he uses it?

I think CBK said at AiB it's in DK's favor. I dunno myself.

I feel like ROB should theoretically win this matchup, but when you actually play it it can be really tough. DK is quicker than he looks and he can kill amazingly well, especially with that retardly fast and large dsmash (which you have to DI towards him since it has Samus' Melee dsmash trajectory, unintuitive DI FTL...).

He's really not that easy to spike. The hitbox on his up-B is pretty big.

I actually like platform stages against DK just because it's nice to see a character get as screwed over by them as ROB does. Uair and utilt can rack up damage so ridiculously fast on him. Of course it's easier to camp on a more featureless stage.

Veggi said:

I wonder what CBK thinks of this match-up.

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100% agreed veggi, you beat me to it.

inb4cbk






now, for my "advice"....you should probably ban brinstar against dk since its pretty much his best stage and from what ive heard one of robs worst. lol

ok, here's the basics, you're going to camp us the whole **** day, it's just what you do.

dk has three conventional ways of approaching rob, and one unconventional way
1. bairs - a2 mentioned the mixup. you really wanna guess right on this, because if dk guesses right, it's either a headbutt, a shieldbreak, or a bair combo. none of which you really want.

2. upb - the SA is really good for going through a laser. you can try to shield this, but it'll poke, it'll also eat your spotdodge. luckily it doesn't do much damage, but it can put you in a bad position if you mess up. most good dks will be able to time the SA to consistently go through tilts/lasers. your dsmash will beat it if he starts up right next to you, but most of the time it'll clank, if this was easier to follow up on, it'd be his best approach

3. walking - pretty much it, walk up, shield, and downb/high angled ftilt from a safe distance, it's hard for rob to get around this, as his main way around down b are projectiles (cover that in a bit) and approaching dk (where dk's ftilt wins, you don't really wanna approach dk, not without a glide toss). getting hit by the downb is 14%, and it sets you up for juggles, which dk does pretty well, especially against people like rob and snake. a ftilt is 12%, followed by a jab combo/downb into juggles.

but if they're tricky, they have this 4th way.
4. glide toss - the running joke is, if cbk gets the top, it's over. but pretty much, dk's glide toss is ridiculous. he goes about half the distance of fd, and can do any attack out of it (not fun for other people). if he grabs the top, it's like a coupon for one free approach, and he can control it pretty well if he's used to it (not many matchups where he has items though)

alright, what each character has in the matchup

DK
- his tilts out space/prioritize yours, this can put you into a bad position, because they are faster than your projectiles. downb/dtilt will go under most of your moves
- he can get an easy 50% juggle off
- he kills you pretty early (low 70 to high 80 with punch, usmash and fsmash depending on where you got hit
- he has accessible SA, it makes attacking him pretty dangerous
- he lives forever, srsly, a2 will down play it, but dk also has a momentum cancel that works just as quick as gdubs, this on top of him being the all around heaviest character, expect him to live anywhere from 140-180 depending on what happens in the match


R.O.B.
- he can camp the hell out of you
- he can continously camp the hell out of you
- dk can't screw up with his ko moves, otherwise rob gets a long stock
- he can camp even more
- he can dthrow into uairs for pretty good damage (30-50)
- he's still camping


on the topic of gimping, we can both technically gimp each other, in that, if dk lands a fair, you die, and rob can land moves through dk's upb until he screws up. so it's both technically possible for each character, but unlikely.nairs with the momentum break will kill in the late hundreds, maybe even 200 if it gets diminished. (@ a2, dk is occasionally allowed to move with the upb momentum break, gotta look into it more, but it's much better than you say it is)

it's pretty even, with maybe a slight dk advantage if he can get around the camp/isn't predictable with the gyro, i gotta get more matches with hugs and shadowrob to give you a number though.

also, bad news good news

bad news : gfsc headbutts works really well in this match

good news: at the moment, i've only heard of 2 dks pulling off a gfsc headbutt in a match, me and cbk, cbk has only done it once, and i can only do it from the left side, so you're pretty safe for now

EDIT: dk's upb has invincibility in the air, not SA

also, a properly landed aerial upb combos into the dsmash, since it has no landing lag, and dsmash comes out frame 10. not sure on grounded.

I also gotta play with more ledge campy robs, cause dk does really well against people on the ledge (let the mk plank), and rob's really good on the ledge. and a2, don't even try mentioning gdubs, we can dsmash stage spike and fsmash that stuff, i just didn't know you could do it

DOUBLE EDIT: We're going to cp either japes or brinstar in this (we got the edge on japes, i'm 100% on this, we can go under the stage to get around your camp, we live to ******** %'s, and ko with grabs), and platform stages work really well for us, fd is probably going to be your best bet, cause dk can do some dumb usmash set ups with platforms, and ours kills 20% before yours (on mario, probably like 30-60 if you factor in weight and good DI/our momentum brake

Sudai said:

Jmex...I like you.

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YAY! No homo? Ahhhh, **** it! lol

Sudai said:

That picture is win.

*fixes*

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Agreed


^Amazing explanation Bigfoot.

You obviously don't know me. Yes homo. ;P

Also, it seems like me and Bigfoot share a lot of ideas in this match-up which makes me happy. Thanks a bundle for filling in the gaps I missed. : )

i'll learn that gfsc soon with dk >_>... pretty hard timing

What is gfsc, if I may ask? I figure it's some sort of cancel...but I don't know what gfs would stand for.

EDIT: Nvm, grounded footstool combo, I just got it.

what about ROB's jabs, its pretty fast, it saved my life a bunch of times

If DK's spacing well, jabs are useless. All his moves out range and out-prioritize our jabs. If you do land a jab though, the standard Jab > Grab or Jab > DTilt > FTilt/Grab combos work nicely. Shouldn't be getting jabs too much against a good DK, however.

^ I dont remember ever getting jabbed

ipitydatfu said:

what about ROB's jabs, its pretty fast, it saved my life a bunch of times

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ROB's Dtilt is by far better though. It's faster and induces tripping.

It's pretty impossible to jab DK. All of his moves are so long and so fast.

ahh .

itsthebigfoot said:

(@ a2, dk is occasionally allowed to move with the upb momentum break, gotta look into it more, but it's much better than you say it is)

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I don't really care whether or not he's allowed to move around with the momentum cancel. It's not good at all. A good player can and WILL punish it. There is a reason why nobody ever uses Up-specials way up high unless their name is Sonic or Snake or G&W or even ROB sometimes. If you go for the ledge, a player will read it and hit you with their strongest aerial or Smash possible. If you try to land on stage, you suffer the landing lag and get hit by a Smash or aerial, depending on whether a platform is present or not. Even on stages with water, the water does help your opponent survive their own edgeguarding attempts as they chase you down.

and a2, don't even try mentioning gdubs, we can dsmash stage spike and fsmash that stuff, i just didn't know you could do it

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G&W is better at edgecamping than both Metaknight and ROB. Keep in mind. He's MUCH harder to defeat at the ledge than either ROB or Metaknight if he's edgecamping right. His Up-B edgestalling is 100% safe (MUCH safer than either ROB or MK's Up-B). His N-air is a better planking tool than Metaknight's Up-air too. He also has a projectile.

A2ZOMG said:

I don't really care whether or not he's allowed to move around with the momentum cancel. It's not good at all. A good player can and WILL punish it. There is a reason why nobody ever uses Up-specials way up high unless their name is Sonic or Snake. If you go for the ledge, a player will read it and hit you with their strongest aerial or Smash possible. If you try to land on stage, you suffer the landing lag and get hit by a Smash or aerial, depending on whether a platform is present or not. Even on stages with water, the water does help your opponent survive their own edgeguarding attempts as they chase you down.

G&W is better at edgecamping than both Metaknight and ROB. Keep in mind. He's MUCH harder to defeat at the ledge than either ROB or Metaknight. His Up-B edgestalling is 100% safe. His N-air is a better planking tool than Metaknight's Up-air too. He also has a projectile.

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Well, his projectile functions more like a really disjointed and randomized hitbox, imo, but yeah it's pretty effective for junk.

how long do you have to hold out the bucket to fully cancel all momentum? cuz if its canceled, you can pull back the bucket and figure out a way to get back on stage.

ps i despise GW's upB

You just pull it out and you stop immediately. There is no deceleration. Your momentum just goes to 0 right there no matter how fast you were going.

OmniOstrich in the DK matchup thread]After me and Rag both played Karn (who is a very good ROB player) and both got knocked out by him this weekend said:

I feel like ROB should theoretically win this matchup, but when you actually play it it can be really tough. DK is quicker than he looks and he can kill amazingly well, especially with that retardly fast and large dsmash (which you have to DI towards him since it has Samus' Melee dsmash trajectory, unintuitive DI FTL...).

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Yeah, y'know, now that I put these two quotes together, I really think that the better the players, the harder this matchup becomes for DK. DK is a character that relies on punishing mistakes severely more than limiting his opponent's options with safe strategies. ROB in a sense is the opposite of DK, as he doesn't usually punish mistakes all that severely, but has a lot of very safe and effective strategies as long as he plays patiently and intelligently. The characters that are better than DK and ROB not only are very good at staying safe, but have ways of safely punishing mistakes severely.

Anyhow when you look at stuff this way, in theory, the significantly safer character, ROB, should have the advantage.

Either way we need moar matches. DK isn't quite as common as some other "common" tourney characters...

^ actually, it's just the opposite, dk is an entirely reactionary character, meaning newer players think all his matchups are horrible, however, the deeper you go into a matchup, the better the matchup gets, you learn whats safe where, and how hard you can punish mistakes, and how often you can force them. he requires decent prediction, but the payoff on a correct read is huge if you know the character. i used to think this was pretty easy for rob, but honestly, it isn't. you say rob is much safer, but a properly spaced dk is ridiculously hard to punish with anything that he'd care about (oh noes 3% from a poke that doesn't guarantee anything)

maybe your just playing too much online and not enough of the actual game there

btw, dk is about forcing low risk high reward situations that he can repeat enough to get it right, not just punishment, punishment is just something he's good at, get it right.

this is why i really hate arguing dk with you, you think everything you do is magically safe, and everything we do is magically unsafe, and our spacing is so bad that you will always be in the perfect position to punish everything, which does not happen

EDIT: to the rest of the rob board, sorry, but i've been arguing with this guy on 3 different matchups, and he has the same argument each time, and each time it really isn't practical or correct. he's gone so far as to say dk sucks at koing, and arguing the matchup based on tier placement. I just get really annoyed when he starts to make this crap up

To chime in, Sudai knows this match up well. We have Cyphus at pretty much all of our tournaments in Louisiana, and he's one of the best DKs in our region. Furthermore, Sudai is a sexy R.O.B.

Being entirely reactionary = bad.

Let me tell you that DK is not an entirely reactionary character, but he is moreso than some characters I will agree.

What this means however is he can rarely afford to start anything himself in this matchup. Many low tier characters are examples of characters that are entirely reactionary. They cannot afford to let their opponent be the one picking on their decisions. Sonic, Captain Falcon, and Ganondorf, all unique characters, are examples of characters that are completely reactionary. They suck of course because of this fact.

While other characters on the other hand actually have strategies that they can initiate regardless of the situation that work and FORCE people to make decisions that they must react to. ROB is better than DK at doing this, especially in this matchup.

DK ultimately takes a risk in this matchup more than ROB because he HAS to approach. ANYTHING he does that ROB knows how react to can and WILL be punished. The key thing I should point out though is that ROB doesn't have to react to anything to force DK to approach. When he shoots a laser, he is able to deal damage from a distance, and DK does not have a way to deal damage from that distance.

The only time DK has a low risk situation to KO someone is from a headbutt combo, but there is significant risk trying to actually land the headbutt (don't believe me? Check your frame data, and it's MUCH easier to punish stuff out of shield in real life matches, which I don't do as effectively online), which is a more situational and punishable attack than the Giant Punch, minus the fact it doesn't need to be charged. Granted, this makes ROB need to think twice before shieldgrabbing, but ROB has more than one way to punish DK's approaches and DOES have enough time in between attacks to do something out of shield.

A DK that properly spaces is more easily punished than other high level characters that properly space. In order for DK to be perfectly spaced, he needs to keep his hurtbox AND his hitboxes away from attacks in risky situations, and he needs to avoid any projectiles that the opponent may have, not to mention he must keep the opponent away from his blind spots in front of him and below him, which are worse than the blindspots ROB has below and behind him. Other characters, they properly space, you attack their hitboxes, and end up getting hurt in the process. Or they just stay away from you and are able to hit you.

Yes this is theory talk, but you should keep in mind people have not been developing strategies for countering DK as long as they have for someone like....Snake. Snake was CLEARLY a broken character when Brawl came out. Most people thought DK sucked for a long time before Riot won a 60 man tourney (yeah, skler's guide to Link still says DK is worse than Link). Yes, people have been spending a lot more time countering the sacred 7 than they have countering DK, who I understand is doing decently right now.

All in all, I think you overestimate DK. I feel the main reason he's doing well right now is because he's a lesser used character than most, and not considered a "real" threat due to DDD's infinite chaingrab on him. See, I don't hear anyone saying DK has any "broken" defensive techniques. And for a good reason cause other characters have more broken stuff to use, and yet THOSE things are being countered in various ways as we speak. Snake's F-tilt for example can be punished on its ending lag. G&W's Back air can be Up-Bed out of shield easily by a few characters. Metaknight's Tornado can be countered with all sorts of dumb stuff and can be DIed out of easily by lightweights. These are examples of techniques that are CLEARLY more broken than stuff DK has, and you expect your stuff to stay not countered forever when in reality DK clearly isn't a character who is always able to force the game on his terms?

The main thing to remember about fighting DK, regardless of what character you are using, is that his Giant Punch must -never- be allowed to charge. Once it's reached 'Super Armor Frame' strength, DK can now bait you into attacking him, and get a free punch in, which often times will result in death. The move should always be fresh from DK, and thus can be a great finisher for him. So, as Sudai said, you must do everything you can to prevent him from charging it up.

Most likely, a wise Dk would begin to Back throw you off the stage in an attempt to charge up his Donkey Punch, via predicting the possibility trajectories that your laser/gryo would come at. In this match up, that should be the only time [aside from a stage that aids DK with cover] that he should be able to charge up his Donkey Punch.]

With the Donkey Punch, it's no longer a question of 'spacing' but timing. All he needs to do is time his Super Armor frames and trade blows with you. You'll go off screen, and he'll wrack up trivial damage.

I should point out Giant Punch is not a very fast attack (rather, the ending lag on it is pretty low though).

DK ultimately has to trick his opponent to some extent in order to actually land it, except against characters that just suck.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=202958

B 18, 19-22 or 25, 26-29/45 or 59...(Super Armor on frames 17-20 for fully charged. The first set of numbers are for fully charged punches and the second set of numbers are for uncharged punches done as quickly as possible. The first number in each set is for the special hit behind DK)

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Just some information on the subject of his Donkey Punch. To utilize it properly, they DK user has to be a 'KO Artist' akin to a boxer. =p