- Matchup Rediscussions #1: read last post

Please read the last post.

It's cute. :3 The Ganon matchup doesn't add up. You could also add individual pokemanz.

:/ oh my god. poor maths skillz I'll change it in a bit

Aww, you beat me to it! *Sulks off depravedly*

*Farore's winds back*

Now the only thing left to do is have a contest once I get mine finished over the weekend!!!!

*Throws deku nut and vanishes*

I'm a bigger fan of the chart style done by the fox matchup thread, but this works.

It's just a rough one! Godathand make an extra amazing one and we'll use that one instead =p my photoshop skills are lacking =(

I love it, all of those pictures are fantastic! I also love how our matchups are stunningly accurate and other boards seem to agree with them.

Is MK really 60:40? IIRC he's 55:45 against us.

Ya he is, we changed it because 45:55 is wrong. I might even go so far as to say 35:65.

I love the chart. It's a nice summation for Zelda users, by Zelda users haha. Also I agree, a competent MK can be a giant pain.

We did toon link. It was put at 50-50 if I remember correctly.

Good stuff by the way! I'll link to here from the community center.

I greatly dislike Zelda vs MK. >_______> But I'm still learning effective ways to punish him with her.

Toon link was given 50:50 by Royal Blood just to be done with him. but there was a LOT of dissagreement anywhere from 70:30 toon link to 60:40 Zelda

Why does Zelda have the advantage over ROB and Falco?

Gheb_01 said:

Why does Zelda have the advantage over ROB and Falco?

Click to expand...

falco boards and Zelda boards think Zelda is good against falco... we haven't done ROB yet, I don't see her having more than a 55:45 advantage on him, but that hasn't come up yet anyhow.

O! I thought we all believed she had an advantage over him. I'll change that one too. I'm getting ahead of myself.

GW is harder than Olimar? Whhhaaa?

I think that's true.

GW has a much better offensive game against zelda and can't be gimped.

*sarcastic tone*

but... but... she has no approaches vs ________ (insert player's favorite character not named Zelda here)

or

but... but... _________ (same) out camps her so she has to approach. We don't have to approach at all.

______________________________

Anyone notice that seems to be a theory for arguments from other characters? I just noticed the Sonic boards about a month ago were arguing this, and we all know the olimar boards did.

Zelda Vs Toon Link D:

I truly believe it 50:50, I played some competent ones and it's so fun ^_^

And Nayru's Love = Zair =D

Din's Fire = Bombs AND Boomerang

Arrows = D=

Din's Fire is awesome here =D

Oh, i forgot to tell, nice chart ;D

RoyalBlood said:

Zelda Vs Toon Link D:

I truly believe it 50:50, I played some competent ones and it's so fun ^_^

And Nayru's Love = Zair =D

Din's Fire = Bombs AND Boomerang

Arrows = D=

Din's Fire is awesome here =D

Oh, i forgot to tell, nice chart ;D

Click to expand...

nayru's love does not counter Zair in any way shape or form. in fact, it's a good way to get yourself smacked in the face.

Din's doesn't beat bombs or boomerangs if toon link knows how to throw them and arrows will rarely make it back to toonie fast enough for reflecting them to be a big deal.

Din's fire is terrible against toonie because it just leaves you open against so much.

seriously. there are things Zelda has on toonie, but those are not those things.

Toonie beats zelda up pretty good.

Nayru's Love Invincibility = Toon Link's retreats because of no damage

The both of them leave unharmed and Zelda has perfect time to PW another Zair if TL decides to retreat with it, and since TL could follow up with another move Zelda can just hit him or maybe TL landed and got all the lag from his grab since Nayru's Love made him mis-time ??? >_> his Zair

Din's Fire has a very nice hitbox, if you don't know how to exploit it, then it's the player fault

Boomerang has noticeable start up when throwing, Din's Fire speed lets Zelda reach him before he throws and if he already throwed it, it will cancel it

Zelda and Toon Link can somewhat force the other to approach though if Zelda is not careful of the arrows, she'll be the one approaching.

And Toon Link has trouble landing kill moves on Zelda, meanwhile Zelda will be racking up more damage ^_^ The same can be said for Zelda in a lesser extent

In the match Toon Link won't be landing F-smash, D-smash or Bair as often as with other matchs

On the other hand Zelda's F-smash, aerials, Nayru's Love and tilts will be less used than with other matchs

Why don't you try a new playstyle? It should work since by your posts it seems you always use the same strategies >:l

I like the chart, the first time I saw one of those on the other boards I thought to myself, I wish the Zelda boards had one, but now we do!

It's cool how the characters are listed in order according to their tier placings. This does raise an interesting question though: when the next tier list is released, will we get a new chart to reflect the changes in characters' tier positions?

And yeah, MK is ridiculous. I could see the match up being 35:65 as well. Of course, the better they are, the better it feels when you win.

I have not had electricity sine 11 last night! >.<

Omg I was so close to killing myself its not even funny.

I just got it back now... thats like over 24 hours without ANYTHING! No T.V. no internet no lights, no hot water, no food that doesn't suck... omg...

I couldn't get that chart done because of it, but don't be discouraged! I will try to do it and finish it before monday.

RoyalBlood said:

Nayru's Love Invincibility = Toon Link's retreats because of no damage

The both of them leave unharmed and Zelda has perfect time to PW another Zair if TL decides to retreat with it, and since TL could follow up with another move Zelda can just hit him or maybe TL landed and got all the lag from his grab since Nayru's Love made him mis-time ??? >_> his Zair

Click to expand...

this is just plain silly. first of all you could claim nayru's counters everything in this case due to invincibility. there's nothing about zair that makes it more susceptible. in fact, it's LESS susceptible because toonie is far enough away not to get hit by nayru's crystals and Zair has a hell of a lot less cooldown than nayru's... and toon link has fast enough follow up options to punish hard.

I'm seriously dumbfounded to the logic behind this assertion. it couldn't be farther from the truth. Nayru's love does ABSULUTELY NOTHING to punish zair. Zair punishes nayru's love. it doesn't get much more wrong actually.

Din's Fire has a very nice hitbox, if you don't know how to exploit it, then it's the player fault

Click to expand...

din's can beat out other projectiles if the distances are great, but otherwise it comes out way too slow to counter them.

Boomerang has noticeable start up when throwing, Din's Fire speed lets Zelda reach him before he throws and if he already throwed it, it will cancel it

Click to expand...

only if zelda uses din's before toonie uses boomerang.

Zelda and Toon Link can somewhat force the other to approach though if Zelda is not careful of the arrows, she'll be the one approaching.

Click to expand...

zelda will always be the one approaching. Toon link can poke and Zelda can't. there's no reason for Toonie to ever leave that comfort range except to KO.

And Toon Link has trouble landing kill moves on Zelda, meanwhile Zelda will be racking up more damage ^_^ The same can be said for Zelda in a lesser extent

Click to expand...

no he doesn't. Zelda is a sitting duck for his aerials. and the second she whiffs anything she's liable to be hit by Usmash.

In the match Toon Link won't be landing F-smash, D-smash or Bair as often as with other matchs

Click to expand...

fsmash and Dsamsh maybe, but zelda's got absolutely nothing on his bair

On the other hand Zelda's F-smash, aerials, Nayru's Love and tilts will be less used than with other matchs

Why don't you try a new playstyle? It should work since by your posts it seems you always use the same strategies >:l

Click to expand...

'cause she's so limited in the matchup.
what exactly should I be doing. that works preferably.

What? Falco uses a 50-cal? Hahaha!

Sonic The Hedgedawg said:

1.- This is just plain silly. first of all you could claim nayru's counters everything in this case due to invincibility. there's nothing about zair that makes it more susceptible. in fact, it's LESS susceptible because toonie is far enough away not to get hit by nayru's crystals and Zair has a hell of a lot less cooldown than nayru's... and toon link has fast enough follow up options to punish hard.

2.- I'm seriously dumbfounded to the logic behind this assertion. it couldn't be farther from the truth. Nayru's love does ABSULUTELY NOTHING to punish zair. Zair punishes nayru's love. it doesn't get much more wrong actually.

3.- Din's can beat out other projectiles if the distances are great, but otherwise it comes out way too slow to counter them.

4.- Only if zelda uses din's before toonie uses boomerang.

5.- Zelda will always be the one approaching. Toon link can poke and Zelda can't. there's no reason for Toonie to ever leave that comfort range except to KO.

6.- No he doesn't. Zelda is a sitting duck for his aerials. and the second she whiffs anything she's liable to be hit by Usmash.

7.- fsmash and Dsamsh maybe, but zelda's got absolutely nothing on his bair

8.- 'cause she's so limited in the matchup.

9.-what exactly should I be doing. that works preferably.

Click to expand...

1.->_> If I'm posting that, it means it works right? I could just post walls of text and claim I'm a knowledgable poster, but that isn't certainly right. It's because Zair is one of the moves that go past Nayru's Love. So go past means, they just go through Zelda just as Din's Fire goes through people.
Other moves such as this include many F-smashes such as Lucario's, Marth's, MK's, etc.

2.-Now, Zair punishes NL if Zelda started before he was Zairing, but I don't know how fast Zelda finishes her attack, so you may have a point there

If only we could master the invincibility Oh well

And don't take your own conclusions out of my posts, it makes people misunderstand me >:3 please

3.- No, even if it's a small distance, Din's Fire is able to counter some projectiles >:D and I doubt Toon Link and Zelda willl be using their projectiles at close distance >_> <_< that just asks for punishment

4.- I believe it's when they start at the same time, i think Din's Fire startup is faster but I'll have to check so Ok

5.- Poke with arrows that is, and that is nicely avoided with Power Shielding, but it's also true to a degree ^_^

6.- If you are good Zelda (which i don't doubt) you should be able to see when Toon Link is going for a KO move, it's easy to see, and considering some of the moves he uses to KO doesn't have a lot of shield push back, Zelda can try to punish them. It's even better when the Toon Link gets desperated and starts spamming his U-smash XD But Zelda doesn't have THAT much trouble killing, but certainly the problem is there, it's just that a D-smash is wonderful for a revenge KO or to punish.
That's what makes the difference

7.- Shield ----> Dash Attack D:

Shield --------> U-smash (not too sure o_o)

P-Shield -------> U-smash ^_^

8.- She's not limited, with those moves shes able to chase and kill Toon Link without too much stress, but if you're talking about her moveset, no she's not, you just have to know when to use which move.

9.- Oh my ^_^; I'm not in any shape,form or way someone you should be asking what to do, you should create you own playstyle based on the strategies that work. Copying a style is no fun for either player. Zelda has the tools to combat Toon Link, it's your duty to make use of them correctly.

RoyalBlood said:

1.->_> If I'm posting that, it means it works right? I could just post walls of text and claim I'm a knowledgable poster, but that isn't certainly right. It's because Zair is one of the moves that go past Nayru's Love. So go past means, they just go through Zelda just as Din's Fire goes through people.
Other moves such as this include many F-smashes such as Lucario's, Marth's, MK's, etc.

2.-Now, Zair punishes NL if Zelda started before he was Zairing, but I don't know how fast Zelda finishes her attack, so you may have a point there

If only we could master the invincibility Oh well

And don't take your own conclusions out of my posts, it makes people misunderstand me >:3 please

Click to expand...

Iunno if you're playing the right toon links then. Nayru's love doesn't have a lot of horizontal range and toonie's zair does. as long as toonie is making sure that he's poking with his zair past nayru's range, nayru's love isn't close enough to hit him. So one of two things happens. either he pokes you with it, or your invincibility protects you from it, but zair's cooldown lag ends first so toonie STILL gets the uppoer hand from the exchange.

you could claim nayru's was a counter if it was that easy to use its invincibility and toonie was always dumb enough to zair closer than he should be, but otherwise, no. zelda's best defense against Zair is to just retreat or approach since, at optimal range, she can't beat it.

3.- No, even if it's a small distance, Din's Fire is able to counter some projectiles >:D and I doubt Toon Link and Zelda willl be using their projectiles at close distance >_> <_< that just asks for punishment

Click to expand...

toonie commonly uses his projectiles at close distance, especially boomerangs, and if he alread has a bomb out, it's not like that has startup lag to throw. The thing is, one of the few things zelda has going for her in the matchup is range. But if she's got to guess quickly when to use her range (as she does, seing as toonie's faster on the whole) that means she's pretty likely to whiff: that's the case against most charcters Zelda has to preempt. Thing is, if she whiffs, a lot of chacrters couln't really capitalize in time, but toonie could just throw a projectile to interrupt you and follow up. Toon link's projectiles are built to allow him to follow up on them. so he WILL be using them at close range and zelda can't counter those at all.

4.- I believe it's when they start at the same time, i think Din's Fire startup is faster but I'll have to check so Ok

Click to expand...

probably depends on which projectile that is.

5.- Poke with arrows that is, and that is nicely avoided with Power Shielding, but it's also true to a degree ^_^

Click to expand...

his zair and bair will also poke quite nicely. we can powersheild them so we won't lose on the exchange, but that only delays things since it doesn't actually hurt toonie, it just prolongs the exchange. Zelda's got no pokes though. and toonie has fairly safe ones. he wins the poke war.

6.- If you are good Zelda (which i don't doubt) you should be able to see when Toon Link is going for a KO move, it's easy to see, and considering some of the moves he uses to KO doesn't have a lot of shield push back, Zelda can try to punish them. It's even better when the Toon Link gets desperated and starts spamming his U-smash XD But Zelda doesn't have THAT much trouble killing, but certainly the problem is there, it's just that a D-smash is wonderful for a revenge KO or to punish.
That's what makes the difference

Click to expand...

Zelda is quite punishable in a variety of situations. Aerially, she is COMPLETELY outclassed by toonie. and toonie's Usmash is ridiculously strong and offers verry little warning that it'll come out. it's punishable if sheilded, but he will get more than enough opportunities to land it and get a KO from it.

7.-Shield ----> Dash Attack D:

Shield --------> U-smash (not too sure o_o)

P-Shield -------> U-smash ^_^

Click to expand...

okay. well in the air he's still completely unhindered, and on the ground he can still use it. empty jumps will have to bait zelda into doing SOMETHING or else letting toonie space howeevr he wants, and his bair can punsh anything we do really we can punish it OoS if he spaces too close. but if he spaces far away OR we don't have a perfect sheild game. it's still a very useful move in the matchup

8.- She's not limited, with those moves shes able to chase and kill Toon Link without too much stress, but if you're talking about her moveset, no she's not, you just have to know when to use which move.

Click to expand...

aerially. she's pretty much outclassed from every angle. exception is uair which toonie should realize and give you great trouble landing it. on the ground, toonie has every tool at his disposal to control spacing and pace. you are pretty much at his whim.

9.- Oh my ^_^; I'm not in any shape,form or way someone you should be asking what to do, you should create you own playstyle based on the strategies that work. Copying a style is no fun for either player. Zelda has the tools to combat Toon Link, it's your duty to make use of them correctly.

Click to expand...

no but a lot of what your saying seems like, while it works, it only works if the toon link "iz doin it rong". Novice toon links might be unaware of zelda's range and abilities and, thusly, might get tripped up by them, but experienced toon links should be spacing so as to not be punished easily.


maybe the advntage isn't as great as I'm giving it credit for, but it's CERTAINLY toon link's advanage. Literrally, there is no chacrter I do worse against with zelda. metaknight, marth, snake, game and watch, peach, olimar. they are all easier than toon link.

Sonic, if you can keep a cool head and just analyze the spam that's being done by Toon Link, you've already eliminated a huge chunk of the problems that TL causes in the first place, which is overwhelming his opponents with his projectiles and causing you to fall for traps. Besides that, doesn't Zelda outrange him anyway?

Nice chart, I kinda prefer it in the order of worst matchups to best but this ones great aswell. It shows how good she can be against Top and High tier characters

Successor of Raphael said:

Sonic, if you can keep a cool head and just analyze the spam that's being done by Toon Link, you've already eliminated a huge chunk of the problems that TL causes in the first place, which is overwhelming his opponents with his projectiles and causing you to fall for traps. Besides that, doesn't Zelda outrange him anyway?

Click to expand...

unfortunately, Zelda isn't the most agile of beasts. evading toonie's projectiles is tough for her if she intends on evading and then actually countering them with something. Plus, good toon links spam purposefully. they know where to throw things so they have the best chance for messing you up, and the least chance for being punished.

Zelda SLIGHTLY outranges him ont he ground with some attacks but, for the most part, is greatly outranged in the air.

her slight range advantage on the ground tends to be negated by toonie's projectiles and pokes. It's still nice, but not as good as it is in other matchups.

Good Toon Links = Good Zeldas >_> <_<

Zelda excels at staying grounded >_> <_<

Your points mainly focus on Zelda being airbone, and Zelda air speed is better than Toon Link's by 5 positions >_> <_<

A good Toon Link starts spamming = A good Zelda should be able to get around it without taking too much damage

You are just, Zelda in the air this, Zelda in the air that air air air >_> and a good TL this and a good TL that

>_> Oh well this debate is pretty gratifying ^_^

He normally goes boomerang > arrow > bomb > attack. Boomerang I reflect if it's in front of me, I SH if it's on its return. Arrow I spotdodge. I havn't found an answer to bombs yet =(

Din's is good when you're out of boomerang range. Din's glide back is always handy. His Fsmash should hardly kill with good di. Just remain rooted to the ground and walk really slowly. Really, his only kill move on Zelda should be Usmash.

RoyalBlood said:

Good Toon Links = Good Zeldas >_> <_<

Click to expand...

none of the higher level toon links I've played have ever thought that. and I don't see proof to contradict that.

Zelda excels at staying grounded >_> <_<

Click to expand...

but falls woefully short in the ability to return to the ground once airborne.

Your points mainly focus on Zelda being airbone, and Zelda air speed is better than Toon Link's by 5 positions >_> <_<

Click to expand...

no. I don't centralize my points on an aerial battle. I merely state that IN the air zelda is at a huge disadvantage to toonie. her better airspeed means nothing when toon link is between her and the stage. She's gotta move into him sometime and her attacks don't beat his and he is more than capable of punishing her airdodge. in the air. toon link wins. Zelda will be doing everything in her power to stay out of the air, but it's foolish to assume that she'll never bee there.

A good Toon Link starts spamming = A good Zelda should be able to get around it without taking too much damage

Click to expand...

good toon links don't spam. they mix up projectiles and pokes with fantastic results. if you don't know what's coming. you can't counter it. The burden is on zelda to predict/preempt toonies attacks if she wants to come out ahead. if she doesn't, shee'l just get poked all day long until toonie gets an opening to KO. if she DOES attempt to counter, she has more chances to be wrong than to be right so chances are, toonie's gonna come out ahead this way too. When one charcter HAS to be in the mind of the other to stand a chance, it's her disadvantage.

and even if we DO avoid it without taking too much damage, we still have taken a little damage and likely have not returned such a favour to toon link.

You are just, Zelda in the air this, Zelda in the air that air air air >_> and a good TL this and a good TL that

Click to expand...

absolutely not. I have never made arguments remotely like this and I resent that you are condensing my argument into one point and claiming that that's how I made it. I have NEVER overemphasized the problem with being airborne against toon link. it's not even half my argument and you act as if I've been kicking a dead horse with it. Toon link creams zelda in the air. thats pretty much all I said on the point. he's got her from all angles except when she's below him, but that's normal. And I made my points about a GOOD toon link because a GOOD toon link doesn't get countered by the things you were suggesting. sure his zair CAN land in range of zelda's nayru's... the same way metaknight CAN land in range of ganon's warlock punch: an experienced user should NOT be landing there, he can space better than that.

>_> Oh well this debate is pretty gratifying ^_^

Click to expand...

if it results in the offical ruling on toonie being reconsidered, I'll be satisfied. our one saving grace here is that we can COMPLETELY counterpick him with luigi's mansion.

I have to say, I am thankful I am in a region that has banned Luigi's Mansion. I have heard so many Zelda players use it as a crutch for CP's that I get sick of it. I couldn't tell you the first thing as to why Luigi's is good for Zelda, but I am getting very experienced on places like Brinstar, Frigate, Japes, and Norfair that I have started using them as CP's. I can't see how most of our match-ups are listed as Luigi's because I don't play it, and when I have goofed around on it, the boundaries of it just get in the way of how I play.

It might just be me on this, but I don't use this crutch because a) I can't b) I'd prefer to find more than one stage my character is good at.

Red_Bandit said:

I have to say, I am thankful I am in a region that has banned Luigi's Mansion. I have heard so many Zelda players use it as a crutch for CP's that I get sick of it. I couldn't tell you the first thing as to why Luigi's is good for Zelda, but I am getting very experienced on places like Brinstar, Frigate, Japes, and Norfair that I have started using them as CP's. I can't see how most of our match-ups are listed as Luigi's because I don't play it, and when I have goofed around on it, the boundaries of it just get in the way of how I play.

It might just be me on this, but I don't use this crutch because a) I can't b) I'd prefer to find more than one stage my character is good at.

Click to expand...

• zelda does not respond well to projectile spam. pillars stop that while not stopping din's.
• Zelda does well at platform chasing/poking. mansion has multiplr levels for her to do that
• Zelda does not fight well in the air. Mansion's ceilings discourage air combat.
• Mansion enable long life with it's ceilings. Zelda's Dsmash is unhampered by them
• Pillars prolong attacks, making zelda's multihits or otherwise lingering hitboxes even HARDER to dodge.
• A lot of characters hate luigi's mansion. and a lot of users aren't experienced on it

that's just the general. And while it's nice to be versitile, cutting off one of zelda's best stages is not a good thing for her. Toon link and Pikachu are PRIME examples of characters who just have a MUCH harder time against zelda on mansion than they would anywhere else. it's always nice to have such a good counterpick in your back pocket.

It's also a very good thing to increase your familiarity of multiple different stages, but using Luigi's mansion when it's called for does not at all hamper that. no reason you can't do both.

MD/VA, my region, banned Luigi's Mansion because of Plank and his MK. Using it as a counterpick is not bad, but whenever a character match-up is talked about people always bring it up as the best situation without even considering other stages (so it seems). It isn't good for the metagame to simply stay around one counterpick stage (see Diddy mains and final D) which is why I am glad it isn't available for me to abuse. If it is that good of a stage for Zelda, then it would be banned everytime a person would face Zelda, but since it is an MK stage, they could simply switch to MK if you CP it and you lose.

I'm just saying that it shouldn't be abused. If Toon Link is hampered by the stage, then that should be the stage you pick unless it causes massive problems for Zelda. Yoshi's Story is not a good stage for Zelda, but I might think about it if I am playing a Diddy who bans Norfair (I would use Brinstar if Norfair was banned simply cause I don't like Yoshi's). If the match-up calls for Luigi's, then I say go for it, but if it doesn't, then it shouldn't be considered.

Red_Bandit said:

MD/VA, my region, banned Luigi's Mansion because of Plank and his MK. Using it as a counterpick is not bad, but whenever a character match-up is talked about people always bring it up as the best situation without even considering other stages (so it seems). It isn't good for the metagame to simply stay around one counterpick stage (see Diddy mains and final D) which is why I am glad it isn't available for me to abuse. If it is that good of a stage for Zelda, then it would be banned everytime a person would face Zelda, but since it is an MK stage, they could simply switch to MK if you CP it and you lose.

I'm just saying that it shouldn't be abused. If Toon Link is hampered by the stage, then that should be the stage you pick unless it causes massive problems for Zelda. Yoshi's Story is not a good stage for Zelda, but I might think about it if I am playing a Diddy who bans Norfair (I would use Brinstar if Norfair was banned simply cause I don't like Yoshi's). If the match-up calls for Luigi's, then I say go for it, but if it doesn't, then it shouldn't be considered.

Click to expand...

you should pick whatever stage is going to give you the best chance of winning. Luigi's mansion helps zelda win a variety of matchups because of how much it aides her defensively and Battlefiled gives her better offensive options. Assuming that there isn't a matcup specific advantage on another shtage, why wouldn't you default to one of those two?

I started working on my match up chart and I think it is going to be pretty cool if I finish it... But it could still be crap because I might get lazy and just kinda throw it together...

Sonic The Hedgedawg said:

you should pick whatever stage is going to give you the best chance of winning. Luigi's mansion helps zelda win a variety of matchups because of how much it aides her defensively and Battlefiled gives her better offensive options. Assuming that there isn't a matcup specific advantage on another shtage, why wouldn't you default to one of those two?

Click to expand...

You just said what drives me nuts about it. I agree with you on the reasons for Mansion and Battlefield that Mansion is the defensive stage for Zelda and Battlefield is the offensive. These are, as you described, Zelda's best stages currently for those prescribed situations. Also, these are the best stages if Zelda was not facing anyone and just wanted to practice.

Norfair was accepted as the Diddy match-up, one I suggested, and it stands to reason to be a strong CP for Zelda. The stage is roomy, but the ceiling and walls are very short at the top platforms. All the edges make Zelda faster, bring her aerial game into play, and gives her options to approach she never had before. You have similar protection hiding under platforms that you do on Battlefield, and she is fairly ungimpable on the stage due to the lava saving her should you miss the ledge.

Brinstar is a modified Battlefield with lava and a base stage that can be gone through. The walls are even shorter than Battlefield and allow her to kill even earlier. The gooey pillars can extend hit boxes along with the spheres holding the stage together. There is a small wall in the sphere area that allows for Dtilt "infinite". It isn't a true infinite because Dtilt will destroy the spheres though, on occasion this has caused my opponent to be spiked when they fall through. I find it fairly easy to camp the left side of the stage, and the top platform is a SH Uair away from a very low kill. Since the walls are so short, and the lava is ever present, the fact that you can go through the platform does not inhibit Zelda's recovery as much as say Delfino.

Zelda would love Halberd if it wasn't for the platform that takes you to the ship. If you start as Sheik there, you could switch to Zelda once the platform gets there and have a plenty of killing power.

Frigate does not seem to gimp Zelda. Her recovery lends herself to not needing a ledge, and we get ledge-hogged anyway. Small walls and ceiling along with a moving platform that she can hold down fairly well. Plus, Dsmash rules anyone with a tether recovery.

Japes is a stage I'm torn on as it has some fairly good advantages (ledgewarping, big protection platform, Dins auto-collides with the outside platforms, her spike), but it takes away from her ability to kill vertically which she does so well. A match-up like Dedede would be great here since he is awful at getting out of the water, his recovery is very spikeable, and he kills vertically as well. Also, he doesn't have a move that kicks Zelda downward, so he can't knock her into the water. This is also one of Dedede's worst stages.

These are 5 examples of stages that give advantages to Zelda and could be used effectively against different types of opponents. I'm just saying there doesn't need to be a reliance on Luigi's Mansion. And like I said, your opponent can just switch to Metaknight once you counter pick Luigi's Mansion, and the battle is over. Even a bad Metaknight can exploit Meta's advantages on that stage.