Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

OKAY!

Wario




Introduction: While he may look fat, don't get the wrong impression that he can't move it. In fact, you should know that Wario has the best aerial acceleration in the game, so what does this mean? Wario can use attacks and stay relatively safe when it comes to the Blue Blur. How will you be able to take care of an opponent who can match your speed? Let's find out!


Behaviour: With Sonic, Wario is going to be staying in the air for damage-racking, and rarely going on the ground unless he is going to K.O. you. Keep an eye on your damage meter, you'll know when Wario is going to want to go in for the kill. Speaking of Meters, did you know that Wario can charge up a Fart overtime? There's no way to tell when Wario might explode, as different Wario players may choose to release it at different times, but the Fart will be at its strongest when Wario turns a sick-green color. Wario may also use the Fart as a rcovery method assuming it has a charge and Wario is left with no other choice. Not like that will happen though, as Wario has a motorcycle he can use to gain some distance. You'll have to place an attack quite well if you want to send Wario further away from the ledge.


Commonly Used Moves: Dair will be used to score multiple hits on you. DI up and only up, as Wario can follow your DI thanks to his amazing ability to weave in the air. Nair is like Sonic's that it will be used as a "get out of my face!" attack, it may also be used rising up, and stil maintains it's hitbox until it goes away or Wario lands on the ground, whichever happens sooner. Forward Smash has Super-Armor Frames, and is quite powerful, just don't get hit and you can punish the horrendous lag behind it. Uair will be used against you if Wario decides to hange up his killing methods, and you just happen to be above him, you shouldn't be getting hit by this. Bite will stop any of your predictable approaches in their tracks, punish Wario with a Homing Attack or Forward Smash angled up, don't try any direct methods. If you see Wario using Down-Smash, just think of it as your own, but with even more lag for you to punish with either a Forward Smash or a Forward Tilt. Beware the Wario Waft. If Wario uses the hog to approach you, just use a Bair or a Spring to knock him out of his Bike... now if you want to make him pay for trying such an easily read move, you can time Forward Smash, Bair, Dair, Nair, Fair, and USmash.


How to Win: Stay grounded, don't make too many mistakes, and make every attack count. UTilt will take care of most of whatever Wario will have to offer if he is offensive in the air. Space your attacks very well, you don't want to end up being the one taking damage over time. Bair will outrange everything Wario can throw at you in the air, and FTilt serves the same purpose on the ground, just make sure that Wario will be moving around in a way that you wouldn't be using aerials like you were trying to beat out an Ike, it's hit or be hit. With your speed, Wario is very limited when it comes to K.O.s, but so are you, so neither of you will be dying too early. Wario is very hard to grab due to his playstyle, but if you do happen to get a grab, remember that if you air-release Wario, it leaves him open to Uair/angled FSmash/USmash/Fair. Use Bair if you wish to go offstage and try to hit Wario there, it's your best bet.


Recommended Stages: Luigi's Mansion, Final Destination.


Matchup Summary: 65:35 Wario's advantage, this is easily one of Sonic's worst matchups out there, but if you can get some experience, it should feel less horrid. Don't go too wild here, you have to play very defensively and smart.

wtf wheres the template to C + P on other character boards lol i was sure there was one...

Er... the way I do it, I just Copy & Paste either the page that has the character, or the very first OP, go to the character boards, make a thread, put whatever I feel I should, and bam, you'll be getting people up here... or there... in no time!

It's quite simple.

tipper down tilt beats bite.

bite is a momentum killer, so you cant try too hard for tons of followups

f smash has short short range, but its way strong.

this is one of the characters that you need to learn to space up tilts and up smashes against.

can anybody tell me how to DI his down air?
that junk is rediculous, all i know is that his airial mobility allows them to follow your DI but can anyone give me a basic overview on the best way to avoid max damage from this move.

ah screw it, theres too many inconsistencies between the OP's on every other character boards i got no idea which is the correct one to use and havent got time to come up with an original one while @ work lol. ill do next one

Kinzer said:

OKAY!

Wario.

Introduction
Wario can go suck a ****.

Behaviour:
Wario acts like a flaming homosexual.


Commonly Used Moves:
Bite, Fsmash, bite.

How to Win:
You can't.

Recommended Stages:
Melee.

Matchup Summary:

This match is gay.

Click to expand...

How's this?

god you fail...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6P7W07mfl8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1jWbkJ0ilQ


commonly used moves
the first one is absolutely amazing simply because it has DOOM on it. if you dont know what i mean you suck, im pretty sure cat knows what im talking about
will add more soon.
down air to down air, to up air is a true 0-41/47% combo

down air, f-air and b-air are very easy to auto cancel. in the case of down air, if the hit box is gone, than the move will autocancel. thats the best way to describe it.

all of his airials have deceptively short landing lag that they will take advantage of.

f smash, bite and fart are all very good combobreakers.

Export thread created.

Don't get Wafted on.

i think that hitting some one while riding the bike, throwing the bike at them, and throwing the pieces all contribute to the staling of that move. kinda like our roll moves.

Err... any way to really conform that?

Also Bike owns you.

Trufax.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8pcogrCjcg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuyf219KbfQ

Wario is Sonic's bane. Wario can Bite both Spindashes, as well as your Dash attack, so ground approaches are off limits. Wario will spend most of the time in the air, (And he moves FASTER in the air then on the ground, go figure.), Wario has fast aerials, and can string lots of aerial combos due to his amazing DI. His aerials have very little landing lag, and can lead into a Fsmash, and finally, he has great recovery if his bike is up, and is very heavy, so hes not easy to KO.

Only thing I can think of, is for sonic to pick a large flat stage, maybe FD, and hit and run Wario. You wont win in the 8 minutes by killing him 3 times, but you should win by timeout.

DMG also said it in the other thread, we're probably going to have to play gay.

Although Bite is easy to counter, just don't approach recklessly.

Here's a couple recent matches between Espy and I (tournament). I was a little iffy on the matchup first round (haha, spotdodging against a Sonic >_>), but I could distinctly feel the advantage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxWjfdim6Ag&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h2cPlthBLI&feature=channel_page

Hey, be glad its not as bad as MK. Which Wario has an OK time with, its about 55:45 MK's favor really. (Now if our boost infinite worked on him, it would be 9:1 >.>)

Hey, can't Sonic CG MK if MK has an aerial break? Or was that a ground one?

And I forgot, BE WARY OF THE WAFT! If you stall, its only helping that Wario.

no, but he can infinite wario if he grabs him without his second jump and gets an air-release by standing over a platform. but it should never happen lol

1:19 is a demonstration on the first video of why you shouldn't blindly throw out attacks/Wario's d*** crazy aerial game.

1:45 work that Side-taunt Puffball.

Never rely on HA for recovery on this matchup, and be very careful of Spring recovery, or Wario will take you down with him.

Warios will never use Up-B as a recovery unless they have no choice, and it doesn't sweetspot the ledge... just a tad shame Sonic doesn't have a spike.

Lol at DSmash kill.

How would you suggest to us we DI even though Wario can kind of follow you...?

Keep a fresh shield up just incase they want to Waft on you.

What stages do you think it would be best to take Wario on? I think Delfino Plaza is okay, but I don't know.

MorphedChaos said:

Wario is Sonic's bane. Wario can Bite both Spindashes, as well as your Dash attack, so ground approaches are off limits.

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Thats only when you're stupid enough to approach from far away, directly, ina predictable fashion.
Bite isn't so much an issue when you stop moving directly or dedicated.

MorphedChaos said:

Wario will spend most of the time in the air, (And he moves FASTER in the air then on the ground, go figure.), Wario has fast aerials, and can string lots of aerial combos due to his amazing DI.

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They are not combos they are strings that shouldn't be hitting in the first place.
DI like everything else breaks comso and if you have an issue with him being aggressive, air pivot to a Bair to fend him off.

His aerials have very little landing lag, and can lead into a Fsmash, and finally, he has great recovery if his bike is up, and is very heavy, so hes not easy to KO.

MorphedChaos said:

Only thing I can think of, is for sonic to pick a large flat stage, maybe FD, and hit and run Wario. You wont win in the 8 minutes by killing him 3 times, but you should win by timeout.

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You can ill him 3 times its just difficult and its 7 minutes dude.
You should actually go to a stage with platforms because they will hinder him aerially.
I like using BF and harassing with Uair simply because it keeps him above you where none of his aerials (except a waft) will break through.

If Wario ;likes to bite alot.
Cancel in front of him then Fsmash him.

PhantomX said:

Here's a couple recent matches between Espy and I (tournament). I was a little iffy on the matchup first round (haha, spotdodging against a Sonic >_>), but I could distinctly feel the advantage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxWjfdim6Ag&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h2cPlthBLI&feature=channel_page

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2nd vid, he used fart 1 time per stock.

beware half charged farts, they hit hard

MorphedChaos said:

Hey, be glad its not as bad as MK. Which Wario has an OK time with, its about 55:45 MK's favor really. (Now if our boost infinite worked on him, it would be 9:1 >.>)
explain this infinite
Hey, can't Sonic CG MK if MK has an aerial break? Or was that a ground one?
sorry, MK hits too fast for either to be a CG
And I forgot, BE WARY OF THE WAFT! If you stall, its only helping that Wario.

Click to expand...

can i get some clarification on my bike stagnation claim?

no matter what SL says, bite is too easy to **** with, cus you can legitamately use it reflexively like MKs shuttle loop to get out of bad situations,
and beware bitecides, rare as they may be.

You have a tiny window to hit us as bite is opening (more so as it's closing), but yeah, it pretty much screws you unless you're backairing us or can spincancel in an instant. You want to go to huge stages. Platformed stages, especially small ones are Wario heaven. If you have a large stage you can run away before we can DI towards you.

And yes, we fart about once a minute or so, if we can, it's hard to see coming though, and it comes out in 5 frames. You need to pick your hits, hit and run, then try to land a finisher (as hard as it may be). Spin cancel mindgames, etc. And yeah, don't worry too much about our bike, it's not the most effective offense (Puffball punished me for it half the time).

MorphedChaos said:

Wario is Sonic's bane. Wario can Bite both Spindashes, as well as your Dash attack, so ground approaches are off limits. Wario will spend most of the time in the air, (And he moves FASTER in the air then on the ground, go figure.), Wario has fast aerials, and can string lots of aerial combos due to his amazing DI. His aerials have very little landing lag, and can lead into a Fsmash, and finally, he has great recovery if his bike is up, and is very heavy, so hes not easy to KO.

Only thing I can think of, is for sonic to pick a large flat stage, maybe FD, and hit and run Wario. You wont win in the 8 minutes by killing him 3 times, but you should win by timeout.

Click to expand...

I have some problems with this. If wario bets out Sonic's approaches so well, how is hit and run supposed to work?

We don't usually approach directly with spindashes, as most characters can stop that quite easily. Dash attack isn't exactly used much to approach either. We shield grab first, and then mix those up with spin attacks. Bite's range mite be superior to sonics standing grab, Idk, but so far that hasnt been an issue.

Sonic's should use SideB and SideB cancel alot to discourage excesive bite usage. Stop your run right in front of wario with a sideB, cancel or proceed to attack accordingly, remember you have invincibility frames on it to avoid teh bite if spaced approapriately. or you could just run and homing attack. works just as well. Or foxtrot>upangled fsmash. watevers.

Sonic is superior on the ground, thats my thought. He both outranges wario and is able to easily punish his ground moves. But wario is vastly superior in the air, thats clear as pie. Sonic fortunately can avoid alot of that pain by nubishly springing away to safety back onto the ground, but you can't avoid the hurt forever.

How does ftilt fare against his aerials btw?

So yea, I'm calling 60:40 Wario.

da K.I.D. said:

no matter what SL says, bite is too easy to **** with, cus you can legitamately use it reflexively like MKs shuttle loop to get out of bad situations,
and beware bitecides, rare as they may be.

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The bite is an 8 frame move with range equivalent to that of Snake's grab.

What makes Wario's bite so unique is that it has a very high amount of activate frames.
So where as there is a small timing for Snake to grab the opponent on frame 8-12(i think it was 12) Wario has frames 8- 90+ frames to grab.

its the fact it stays out so the move catches the opponent when they are DEDICATED to a move.

Considering the range and speed of the move Wario needs to predict when you are going to attack and from WHERE because the bite only covers where his teeth end.

So in short play against Wario as if you were playing against a DDD.
Don't get grabbed.
You'll get bitten much lesser and you'll find it is far from a major contributing factor as to why Sonic loses badly to Wario.
its everything else you must deal with.

5 frame kill move with massive range and extremely high killing power.
incredible aerial game, better killing power overall, better speed and mobility overall.
The fact he shuts down Sonic's strategies not the fact that he has bite.

How does ftilt fare against his aerials btw?

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I believe it breaks most of them except Uair.
Not sure about Dair.

Don't forget that Wario lives stupidly longer than Sonic. But yeah, Bite isn't the determining factor.

PhantomX said:

Don't forget that Wario lives stupidly longer than Sonic. But yeah, Bite isn't the determining factor.

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SEE!? THE WARIO MAIN AGREES!

**** it im going Wario now. *shot*

What SL said. Again, you should be shield cancelling enough So that bite becomes relatively not so useful anymore. Of course you will get hit by it, but you want to minimize the amount of damage it will do per match.

Oh, and btw, espy's amazing and all, but I wouldn't take those matches too strongly about the matchup. He said himself he was suffering from sleep/food depravation... and he made some pretty bad choices. He like, ran right into bite quite a few times. and it wasnt even like, a reflexive bite. He just ran into it when it was right wide open XD. But his bair usage was good and stuff. just bad choices.

And yea, small stages with platforms are scary against wario.

Hmm. How good is wario's momentum cancelling and weight exactly? Too tired to look it up =P. Sonic has some pretty darn good survivability himself for his weight class, although I can imagine with wario's aerial influence his horizontal survivability is crazy.

i think up air would work better, to beat his airials...


and i just realised why wario is such a good character.

he has moves that have specific purposes that cover all of the essentials for this game.

he has good damage dealing moves that poke, and have good hitstun and really low knockback, which sets up for great combos.

he has poke moves that he can camp with.

his strong moves hit really hard.

command throws are stupid good in this game.

and he has not 1 but 2 fast strong kill moves that have either super armor or invincibilty on them.

and his recovery is beast to the point that hes one of the like 5-6 characters that can follow snake offscreen with his cypher.

he doesnt have much lag in general

basically wario makes sonics failings more apparent. since all of sonics moves, damage dealers and KO moves alike have pretty average knockback. while warios damage moves have terrible knockback, which is actually a good thing, and his KO moves have great knockback

but that is neither here nor there. im supposed to be talking about how can sonic beat wario...

i say,
camp
choose attacks carefully.
use a lot of up tilt and up smash.
learn to forward air and up air out of shield

EDIT
people wouldnt talk about sonic dying so fast if they played me, my DI has been freaking people out lately... f air to side b = rediculous survival

Yeah, but against a Wario you'll be hitting 150ish at best. A Wario that DI's any of your moves that isn't Fsmash can easily live to the 180s. It's a relativity thing, granted equal DI, the Wario will always outlive the Sonic... he's just tank like that.

I know I was just commenting on Puff's vids, but these need to be answered.

Kinzer said:

How would you suggest to us we DI even though Wario can kind of follow you...?

What stages do you think it would be best to take Wario on? I think Delfino Plaza is okay, but I don't know.

Click to expand...

Thanks a bunch in advance.

yea, he is a fat SOB though, its annoying, sonic should be heavier, hes bigger than wario.

lol

i really wish sonic had more weight, just one more thing to put on the "tiny tweaks that would make sonic high tier" list.

da K.I.D. said:

i think that hitting some one while riding the bike, throwing the bike at them, and throwing the pieces all contribute to the staling of that move. kinda like our roll moves.

Click to expand...

can i get an answer to this too please?

going to bed now, thanks in advance.

I'm pretty sure they're all different moves with their own decay "counters." The wheels and running people over at least this applies to. I rarely ever hit anyone w/ the bike, and have not paid attention to whether each bounce on a person decays, but I assume that it also has it's own decay counter (and probably hits for less w/ each bounce).

MorphedChaos said:

Hey, can't Sonic CG MK if MK has an aerial break? Or was that a ground one?

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It's impossible for almost any character to chaingrab Meta from a ground release. Meta can move after 30 frames, and Sonic can move after 30 frames from letting him go. Unless Sonic has a frame 1 grab, which would be awesome by the way, it's impossible chaingrab Meta from a ground release.

The only character that can do that is Bowser, because he's awesome.

Ooohh

Its fun to SDJ into Dair semi spike when wario is recovering. Fun fun.

Napilopez said:

Hmm. How good is wario's momentum cancelling and weight exactly? Too tired to look it up =P. Sonic has some pretty darn good survivability himself for his weight class, although I can imagine with wario's aerial influence his horizontal survivability is crazy.

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lol, I was typing a post answering this last night even before you asked it, then my laptop battery died and I fell asleep

I need to do more extensive testing with Wario, but IIRC his momentum-cancelling isn't that great. I think he needs to use his jump (ie. bike and bite don't help, obv. same for his other specials), and I don't remember his midair jump being particularly effective at countering knockback. You'd think it would since his aerial acceleration is so good, so maybe I need to try again now that I'm more experienced with momentum-cancelling (it was one of the first things I thought to try, ever, lol).

Since he has to Jump (to avoid a side killzone, after using his fastest aerial), it might be optimal for Wario to either DI really low so that the Jump itself doesn't push him over the ceiling (remember he gets a huge vertical boost for using the jump), or just DI as high as possible and not bother with the jump at all. Iunno, I'll try and test tonight.

Anyway, Wario's not that much heavier than Sonic. I wish I had data on fall speeds vs. fastfall speeds; it's possible that with Sonic's fastfall Fair + down-B, there'd be quite a range where Sonic can survive vertical KOs that Wario can't.

sonic has tons of options that should make the bike task cake.

down air, forward air, even neutral air, since it has a decently lasting hit box, and Homing attack should all be really good for that. you might even be able to drop a spring on him as hes jumping off.

there was a weight list that somebody had posted in one of our stickeys but i dont remember where it is.

I was the one that posted it, and it doesn't consider fastfall speeds.

wanna find that again for me?