Zelda´s F-tilt vs aerials & D-tilt lock information

Kataefi asked in Q&A threat if someone could test Zelda´s D-tilt lock and how her F-tilt does against other character´s aerials and shorthop approaches. Since I was interested on those things myself too, I started the tests. They take very much time to be accurate, so I don´t have information about all the characters yet, but I´ll get it eventually and post what I have now.



First, here´s the explanation about what the results mean:

1. If I say that Zelda´s F-tilt outranges the attack, I mean that if the characters are at a distance that allows Zelda just hit her enemy with the very tip of her F-tilt, the other character can´t hit her from that distance without moving closer. This doesn´t mean that her F-tilt can stop every approach, because aiming it up or down takes quite a lot away from the vertical range of the move. Lots of the range also comes from the step Zelda takes while executing it, so many attacks can hit her body. It also doesn´t mean that she can always punish the aerial in guestion, because the enemy can usually move away after attacking before Zelda´s F-tilt.
2. The percentages listed in D-tilt lock mean the damage area from where the other character has considerable trouble in escaping and where he/she pops up from the move. The move can actually be escaped even in these damages, but it´s often very hard. In the actual match the lock starts working considerably earlier and lasts longer, but these show the area where the lock is almost guaranteed. The later number shows the percentage in what the character pops up from the hit of undecaued D-tilt. The number in (...) tells how many D-tilts there are in the given damage range. *Exceptions: DK. He can´t be truly locked unless D-tilt trips him.
3. The results are based on correctly spaced shorthop approaches and excellent timing on Zelda´s part. Thus some attacks listed as beatable are insanely hard to stop with F-tilt in actual match.
4. Moves marked with * are affected by the rule that they can be beated if enemy is approaching from above, but not if they approach from the shorthop correctly (Zelda´s height).
5. "F-tilt loses to" means that if the attack is done correctly in shorthop, Zelda can´t stop or punish it with F-tilt.

Now, here are the actual results:

D-tilt lock: 73 - 83 % (3)
.........F-tilt beats in range: All of Mario´s aerials
.........F-tilt can stop shorthopped approaches: All of Mario´s aerials
.........F-tilt can trade hits with: N/A
.........F-tilt loses to: N/A
.........Other information: N/A
D-tilt lock: 76 - 91 % (N/A)
.........F-tilt beats in range: All of DK´s aerials
.........F-tilt can stop shorthopped approaches: Dair, Bair, Uair, Nair
.........F-tilt can trade hits with: Fair
.........F-tilt loses to: N/A
.........Other information: F-tilt outranges giant punch but can´t stop approach with it
D-tilt lock: 70 - 86 % (4)
.........F-tilt beats in range: Bair, Fair, Nair, Uair, Dair
.........F-tilt can stop shorthopped approaches: Dair, Uair, Bair,Nair
.........F-tilt can trade hits with: N/A
.........F-tilt loses to: Zair, Fair
.........Other information: N/A
D-tilt lock: 70 - 88 % (4)
.........F-tilt beats in range: Bair, Fair, Nair, Dair, Uair
.........F-tilt can stop shorthopped approaches: Bair, Nair, Dair, Uair
.........F-tilt can trade hits with: Fair*
.........F-tilt loses to: Zair
.........Other information: N/A
D-tilt lock: 61 - 75 % (3)
.........F-tilt beats in range: All of Zamus´ aerials
.........F-tilt can stop shorthopped approaches: Bair, Fair, Nair, Dair, Uair
.........F-tilt can trade hits with: N/A
.........F-tilt loses to: N/A
.........Other information: N/A
D-tilt lock: 58 - 74 % (4)
.........F-tilt beats in range: All of Kirby´s aerials
.........F-tilt can stop shorthopped approaches: Nair, Uair
.........F-tilt can trade hits with: Bair, Fair, Dair
.........F-tilt loses to: N/A
.........Other information: F-tilt outranges hammer and beats an approach with it, F-tilt can hit though the slash of Up-b but the timing and spacing are practically impossible to achieve in real match
D-tilt lock: 50 - 75 % (5)
.........F-tilt beats in range: All of Fox´s aerials
.........F-tilt can stop shorthopped approaches: Bair, Nair, Fair, Uair
.........F-tilt can trade hits with: Dair
.........F-tilt loses to: N/A
.........Other information: Reflector beats F-tilt as an approach (invincibility)
D-tilt lock: 57 - 74 % (4)
.........F-tilt beats in range: All of Pikachu´s aerials
.........F-tilt can stop shorthopped approaches: All of Pikachu´s aerials
.........F-tilt can trade hits with: N/A
.........F-tilt loses to: N/A
.........Other information: F-tilt stops skull bash, but jab and F-smash are safer and easier to time, D-tilt and D-smash stop thunderballs
D-tilt lock: 64 - 78 % (3)
.........F-tilt beats in range: All of Marths aerials
.........F-tilt can stop shorthopped approaches: Nair (first attack), Uair, Dair
.........F-tilt can trade hits with: N/A
.........F-tilt loses to: Fair, Bair, Nair (second hit)
.........Other information: N/A
D-tilt lock: 59 - 73 % (3)
.........F-tilt beats in range: Fair, Nair, Uair, Dair, Bair (depends on the timing & position)
.........F-tilt can stop shorthopped approaches: Uair, Dair
.........F-tilt can trade hits with: Nair
.........F-tilt loses to: Bair*, Fair*
.........Other information: N/A
D-tilt lock: 69 - 83 % (3)
.........F-tilt beats in range: All of Luigi´s aerials
.........F-tilt can stop shorthopped approaches: All of Luigi´s aerials
.........F-tilt can trade hits with: N/A
.........F-tilt loses to: N/A
.........Other information: D-tilt and D-smash stop fireballs
D-tilt lock: 67 - 81 % (3)
.........F-tilt beats in range: All of Diddy´s aerials
.........F-tilt can stop shorthopped approaches: Nair, Dair, Uair
.........F-tilt can trade hits with: Bair, Fair
.........F-tilt loses to: N/A
.........Other information: Jab stop peanuts (tested only on uncharged ones)
:shiek: D-tilt lock: 63 - 77 % (3)
.........F-tilt beats in range: All of Sheik´s aerials
.........F-tilt can stop shorthopped approaches: All of Sheik´s aerials
.........F-tilt can trade hits with: N/A
.........F-tilt loses to: N/A
.........Other information: N/A
D-tilt lock: 63 - 77 % (3)
.........F-tilt beats in range: All of Zelda´s aerials
.........F-tilt can stop shorthopped approaches: Nair, Uair, Fair, Bair
.........F-tilt can trade hits with: Dair
.........F-tilt loses to: N/A
.........Other information: Nayru´s love as an approach beats F-tilt (invincibility)
D-tilt lock: 60 - 81 % (4)
.........F-tilt beats in range: All of Pit´s aerials
.........F-tilt can stop shorthopped approaches: Bair, Fair, Nair, Uair
.........F-tilt can trade hits with: Dair
.........F-tilt loses to: N/A
.........Other information: F-tilt goes through or trades hits with Pit´s angel ring when he does it on ground, D-tilt and D-smash stop arrows if (and only if) they are aimed at Zelda´s feet

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*Note: information here is bound to change/get corrected as more testing is done

As you can see, there´s still much testing to be done for me. I´ll try my best to get as much of it as possible done before I leave to my one week holiday without internet day after tomorrow, but I don´t think I´ll get everything done. If not, I´ll post the results after I´m back.

I´m sorry for the confusing look of the threat, but I that´s the best i could do right now. If you have any guestions or suggestions please let me know about them, I´ll answer if/when I can. Also feel free to give me something to test during my holiday if you want to know something and don´t mind waiting the answer. And most importantly, tell me if there´s a mistake somewhere in my post.

Half-Split Soul said:

Kataefi asked in Q&A threat if someone could test Zelda´s D-tilt lock and how her Fair does against other characters aerials and shorthop approaches.

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I believe you mean Ftilt right? Other than that, cool stuff. I hope you eventually finish all of it because it's good stuff to know.

Edit: Some other non-projectile specials that I think should be included just to be thorough (since technically they could attempt to approach in the air with them).

Mario = Side B
DK = Side B
ZSS = Down B (the kick attack thing)
Kirby = Up B (the sword part of the attack, not the projectile)
Fox = Side B
Pikachu = Side B, Up B
Marth = Neutral B and Side B
G&W = Neutral B (frying pan part, not the food)
Luigi = Forward B, Side B, Down B
Diddy Kong = Side B (the kick attack thing, not where he tries to hump you)
Sheik = Side B
Pit = Side B

That's it for the characters you listed, but you get the idea.

sniperworm said:

I believe you mean Ftilt right? Other than that, cool stuff. I hope you eventually finish all of it because it's good stuff to know.

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Sorry, my mistake. It´s past midnight here and I´m tired so no wonder there´re some errors. I´ll fix that right now.

Thanks for noting it out =)

Before you go any further with the dtilt lock thing, I have to warn you that unless you're doing your testing in versus mode, your results will be inaccurate. By a lot.

Dtilt will decay meaning its hitstun will decrease, and at lower percents so will your frame advantage. I don't know how you're testing this, but having the d-tiltee hold the shield button while you mash down + a makes this very apparent.

There are percents when your frame advantage will remain positive relative to how fast your dtilt decays -- that's the true dtilt lock. I don't have numbers for everyone, [speculation] but my guess is that the range between characters isn't quite as wide as your data suggests. I know that Peach is locked at 50 and DDD at 56 -- that's a big difference in weight and fall speed with only a small increase in the percentage.

If dtilt decays, it will not knock them into the air at the percentage you say.

DK cannot be truly dtilt locked. His semi-trip animation allows him to shield as soon as he touches the ground -- he'll perfect shield at the percents when he should be locked. There might be other characers for which this is so.

Half-Split Soul said:

Sorry, my mistake. It´s past midnight here and I´m tired so no wonder there´re some errors. I´ll fix that right now.

Thanks for noting it out =)

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No problem, I know what that's like. Besides, these threads are to help the Zelda community, so of course we're going to help the hard working guys who actually take the time to make them.

Villi said:

DK cannot be truly dtilt locked. His semi-trip animation allows him to shield as soon as he touches the ground -- he'll perfect shield at the percents when he should be locked. There might be other characers for which this is so.

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This makes me sad...

Any chance we can do this for other moves like n-air, u-tilt, etc...?

This is exceptional stuff!!!!!

I know there's a little trouble with getting totally right figures with the Dtilt lock, but still - Ftilt is actually amazing!! It's priority is pretty great so far.

Marth seriously interests me. If Ftilt can beat his safe Fair approaches, then surely... the matchup needs a good looking into?

I didnt know ftilt could cancel out that many moves.
Hopefully it can cancel out all of MK and Peach's aerials too.

How exactly do you test this?

Interesting... I've been using Ftilt as a situational move lately because it takes about as long as an uncharged FSmash to get out, and has a short-lasting hit-box in comparison. I suppose I may otherwise use it when I'm worried about decaying my FSmash too much. At any rate... what I'm curious to know is this: are there truly situations where an FTilt is a better option than an uncharged FSmash (in a situation where priority isn't a major concern)?

Since Ftilt is a 1-hit move, I suppose opponents can't DI out of it if they get hit. That is one plus. At the same time though, it leaves you more vulnerable to getting hit. Is the hit-box actually longer than that of an FSmash, and can it actually beat moves an FSmash can't out-prioritize? I can't say I've tried it significantly, because admittedly, I always just assumed that FSmash could beat out an Ftilt in terms of range and priority...

Up angled ftilt has more diagonal range than fsmash and up tilt -- the animation is also a little shorter than the up tilt.

A normal forward tilt has slightly less range than the last hit of fsmash, but more range than the beginning hits -- the animations for both attacks last about the same amount of time.

sniperworm said:

Edit: Some other non-projectile specials that I think should be included just to be thorough (since technically they could attempt to approach in the air with them).

Click to expand...

I actually tested some of these already and will test the rest too. I´ll post results as I finish with them.

Villi said:

Before you go any further with the dtilt lock thing, I have to warn you that unless you're doing your testing in versus mode, your results will be inaccurate. By a lot.

Click to expand...

You´re absolutely right. My percents aren´t nowhere near the actual percents where the D-tilt lock works in real matches. This is actually part-intentional. I thought about testing it in vs. but then I realised all the variables: what part of Zelda´s foot starts the lock, how often enemies trip during the lock, how stale D-tilt was to begin with, how they DI... because all this I decided to recreate the "worst-case scenario", meaning that these are the percentages you can pretty much count on to get the lock working. The higher number means the part where you can´t start the lock with undecayed D-tilt.

With DK and possible others that can escape the lock the numbers present the part where tripping starts happening often enough for them to get stuck at reasonable propability.

Of course I forgot to explain this correctly in the original post... well, luckily it can be edited I´ll begin testing the D-tilt lock in vs. mode with all the variables after I´ve gotten the "worst-case scenarios" done for all characters.

Kataefi said:

Marth seriously interests me. If Ftilt can beat his safe Fair approaches, then surely... the matchup needs a good looking into?

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Well, if Marth spaces his approaches right the F-tilt doesn´t help. The F-tilt can only beat his approach directly if it hits him before his hitbox hits Zelda. The range of F-tilt also isn´t enough for Zelda to reliably punish him after his attack if he moves away after hitting Zelda´s shield.

Villi said:

How exactly do you test this?

Click to expand...

I test the pure range by placing characters standing away from each other. Then I attack using C-stick aerial and C-stick F-tilt and always move slightly closer until other one hits. If I´m not sure about the ranges I place other character next to wall and use the same way of testing. If aerial has the most range in the place that doesn´t reach standing Zelda I jump with her.

When it comes to beating approaches I set the speed to 1/2 of normal and let other player to approach me, trying to prevent it. This is done with multible different timings and spacings. If I manage to beat the approach I repeat it few times to be sure it´s actually possible. I also test it in normal speed to confirm the find.

Currently I´m testing the D-tilt lock by allowing other player to try to DI out of it. Since some characters get out of the lock most reliably with DI and others with shield, these are just raw versions. However, they tell the part from where the lock becomes the most reliable. When these are done I´ll start more thorough tests.

Thanks for the comments and suggestions, they´re really helpful. Also, do you think I should add a part that tells how easy the approaches are to stop with F-tilt?

Because you are not getting decayed numbers, I just thought I would point out that I usually can lock anyone starting around 40% if I decay the Dtilt (which I do) and hold them in it until they DI out or I smash them.

Just wanted to point that out.

So it's the decayed dtilt that locks them?

That's handy stuff! I need to use way more dtilt than I already do! Angled ftilt is a little harder to do out of instinct.

Excellent job so far.

Another thing, it has been concluded Angled F-Tilt beats G&W Bair. You have it losing.

Half-Split Soul said:

D-tilt lock: 59 - 73 % (3)
.........F-tilt beats in vertical range: Fair, Nair, Uair, Dair, Bair (depends on the timing & position)

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I think this makes sense.

Half-Split Soul said:

#5 - "F-tilt loses to" means that if the attack is done correctly in shorthop, Zelda can´t stop or punich it with F-tilt.

D-tilt lock: 59 - 73 % (3)
.........F-tilt beats in vertical range: Fair, Nair, Uair, Dair, Bair (depends on the timing & position)
.........F-tilt can stop shorthopped approaches: Fair*, Uair, Dair
.........F-tilt can trade hits with: Nair
.........F-tilt loses to: Bair*
.........Other information: N/A

Click to expand...

So, I assume this means it is a non-angled f-tilt? Otherwise, I am right. I think this is misleading because I am now confused as to what he is actually testing. Is this normal f-tilt? Is this angled f-tilt? I'm a bit confused.

It should be listed it beats SH Bair as that is what was tested. He lists Bair winning if it comes in vertically instead of SH, but SH Bair is not listed as being stopped.

"Stale moves" affect the Dtilt lock.
The lock holds longer in a actual match, than in training mode. (If not power shielded or DI'd out of)

The lock starts later (on higher %'s) if your Dtilt have suffered from stale moves.

Successor of Raphael said:

Excellent job so far.

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Thank you =)

Red_Bandit said:

Another thing, it has been concluded Angled F-Tilt beats G&W Bair. You have it losing.

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I was the one who first tested it (note: I didn´t come up with the idea, just tested it) and I did include it in the post:

Half-Split Soul said:

Moves marked with * are affected by the rule that they can be beated if enemy is approaching from above, but not if they approach from the shorthop correctly (Zelda´s height).

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G&W´s Bair is in this category. If G&W comes from a bit higher than Zelda, he can be hit with F-tilt before his hitbox hits Zelda, otherwise G&W´s Bair wins. Same applies with Samus´ Fair except that it only trades hits with F-tilt instead of winning it.

Red_Bandit said:

So, I assume this means it is a non-angled f-tilt? Otherwise, I am right. I think this is misleading because I am now confused as to what he is actually testing. Is this normal f-tilt? Is this angled f-tilt? I'm a bit confused.

Click to expand...

I test all the possibilities of stopping aerials with F-tilt, both with angled and normal. That´s why I started thinking that I should propably add information on which one can stop which aerial. If my post is misleading or confusing could you please give me suggestions on what I should change in it to make it easier to read?

Edit: Fixed and added some information to the first post.