Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

Sonic has a grab release on Wario.

Discuss//

Chis said:

Sonic has a grab release on Wario.

Discuss//

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An aerial grab release when you release Wario on the ground you can't do anything to him.
grabbing Wario is rather difficult even for characters like DDD so yeah.

dr.mario guy said:

Futile, Fiction, Reflex. They are all very good Wario's in "known" regions



Texas doesn't have very many Dedede's and the ones that I do play against I beat. It has nothing to do with MK, more like there just aren't any Dedede players except maybe 2.

Also, at HOBO 11 we had some good OOS players come in and play (Not just the regular Texas players). I got 4th place there, the highest placer for Texas and higher than DSF got. I proved there that I wasn't doing good just because Dedede doesn't run rampant or just because Texas is a MK fest. I place well and do well because I am a good player.



Now as for Wario vs Sonic, 60:40 or 65:35 at the very best, Wario really doesn't have that big of an advantage.

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Not to mention you beat Azen. Also, it's not like MK is easy for Wario either, and we have to play them like every other round -_-

Does Sonic keep Wario dangling in the air when he grabs him? I never paid attention when I faced Espy. If Wario doesn't dangle, it's not an auto aerial release and thus not a free attack. You're more likely to get grabs on us as Sonic than d3 though, b/c it's considerably less dangerous and you guys run really fast D:

PhantomX said:

Not to mention you beat Azen. Also, it's not like MK is easy for Wario either, and we have to play them like every other round -_-

Does Sonic keep Wario dangling in the air when he grabs him? I never paid attention when I faced Espy. If Wario doesn't dangle, it's not an auto aerial release and thus not a free attack. You're more likely to get grabs on us as Sonic than d3 though, b/c it's considerably less dangerous and you guys run really fast D:

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Nope. Sonic is a hair too short. If he was a bit taller Wario would dangle because Sonic's grabs are high grabs rather than low grabs like a few other characters.
So the oly way you'll get aerial released is if you hit the jump button when you try to escape.
Which can happen if you are mashing like crazy resulting in an Fsmash which rather hurts.


I find that Sonic tends to have an issue grabbing Wario. I mean its much safer for Sonic to attempt a grab because he is shorter and much faster, but he lacks the range for grabbing Wario and has nothing to follow up with unless Wario is released into the air.

Actually, you can get aerial releases on us if you jab us a couple times after grabs and wait. If we mash anything that isn't down on the control/c-stick, we'll jump break. It's pretty lame, but works on those that just mash everything in general, and it works w/ other small characters like Kirby and Diddy too :\

PhantomX said:

Actually, you can get aerial releases on us if you jab us a couple times after grabs and wait. If we mash anything that isn't down on the control/c-stick, we'll jump break. It's pretty lame, but works on those that just mash everything in general, and it works w/ other small characters like Kirby and Diddy too :\

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I always suspected that was the case but never was sure.


Oh god, I...sense...an urge...

MUST! GRAB! WARIO!


how much do grabs affect the matchup then?
Do they aid sonic substantially in the matchup? Or is it a minor factor?

Grab release is usually a minor factor, assuming we're careful. Wario's a tough bugger to grab under almost all circumstances.

It does help for free damage early on, and if you get the grab at high percents it's an easy kill, as opposed to the normal means, lol. But at high percents we have enough time to just mash down a lot, it won't catch us by surprise most likely... sometimes it still pops me in the air even when I'm doing this, however, which is lame Cross your fingers if you get the grab? Haha. Oh, and hope there are no platforms in the vicinity (which there probably will be, seeing as no one wants to fight Sonic on FD )

Grab susbstantially affects any matchup for Sonic ^_^

I do think Wario is one of the hardest to grab though. Because of his crazy weaving in the air. So, just bring him to the ground. Space well on the ground, if he misses a move, you can punish it.

Camalange said:

If you grab Wario out of his second jump from the edge, it's an instant air release and Sonic gets a free Fsmash if he angles it up. Still very situational.

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i posted before...

its also an infinite regrab.

Have we covered Wario then?

It would be nice to know which stages are best to take him then, so I have something to throw in the matchup wrtie-up for Wario.

Basically you want to have running room, and want to make it easy for you to get on the ground. Battlefield is probably your worst option. FD is as usual good, just so you can escape wario. he doesnt have any projectiles, so you're not forced to approach. In a small stage however, its harder to get around him. Yoshi's island could be good if you make use of the invincy dash alot so wario can't hit you. I could imagine castl seig being descent. The first stage of it mght cause you trouble, bu the second could possibly mean some easy throw KOs, and the last is at worst even. But thats just theory craft.

Are there any particular stages that cause wario trouble?

Oh btw, you really shouldn't be getting hit a gazillion times by Wario's bike like that MK in the video. Its what UpB invincibility is for XD.

So numbers anyone?

I say 60:40 Wario

Grab release...

It's d*** hard to grab a competant Wario Chis, I say (and the rest of the community) it's a solid 65:35 disadvantage, and even if we do grab, Wario Sonic can't hardly punish it.

What's he gonna do, USmash, which can be DIed off and won't kill until very high %ages, or Uair, which knocks him up in the air, but that's about it, it won't be getting any kills in on itself anytime soon.

I hate fighting Wario... so... much... scars and... garlic and... tiretracks and... *shiver*

so you can pull off an up smash off of a ground release right?

As long as there isn't a platform in the way, it should be possible to do a USmash on Wario upon air-release.

do you have to move? or can you just stand there..

Well, you'll probably have to move up a smidge, but thanks to the disjointedness of USmash, it should catch Wario into it.

When I get home, I'll see if it's possible to get an USmash out of an air-release and tell you for sure, but ATM I'm at the school building until 1 P.M. the latest.

ill be back in a half hour

Chis said:

What did LeeHarris do to get kicked out of fthe SBR anyways?

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he was in the MK banning thread spouting out inside info that the people outside the SBR werent supposed to know about, it was weird, i was there.

MalcolmM said:

Reflex is the most recent and goes to grand finals with captain falcon in his region that should say something about his region.
when you put it like that its highly upsetting
I asked u about GOOD regions with wario players. Afro thunder is the only one i can think of and he wins or loses his matches based on if his Down-B hits.

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lol

MalcolmM said:

lol? his accomplishments are around the same time as futile and tink...yet u sited them as "wario gods" lmao. and he is the only wario player still getting vids up...wether it b captain falcon or not. so now you KNOW that what i said was 100% right since his cf vids came out less than 3 weeks ago and the last notable wario b4 that was afro thunder of months ago. DMG vs royr is months old as well. i didnt say he was playing wario in those vids....cause apparently he doesnt want 2 or need 2. thats his business.
i could have sworn that Afro switched mains or something...

face it man...wario players arent doing anything. this argument is going nowhere. sonic players are winning more tournaments than wario right now. that should tell u something.

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thats key facts right there....
it makes me really upset how good Sonic is doing but he cant get out of low tier, while wario has very little in terms of tourney results but i doubt that he is moving down.

anyway @ malcom
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrI0cNX50cs
1:44 very specifically

Can't you guys get an uptilted fsmash out of grab release?

Also, considering no one plays Wario b/c they hate his character, he's doing fine for himself.

Take Wario to Weegee's, that's like the worst Wario stage in existence... but expect them to change characters, lol.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4387892&postcount=1

Look at the point system, Wario has almost twice as many as Sonic, meaning the Wario players are winning/placing way higher in bigger tournaments. Though going by that Sonic is not low tier either (which I don't really think he is).

Wario can't react with a Nair/Fair/Dair or something out of air-break? It's a possibility.

Eh probably not, no thanks to his horrendous range on all of his aerials.

I still say grab-release aren't going to really help you in this matchup since Wario is one hard bugger to nab. In fact Wario likes to touch our balls, no thanks to Youtube user GuitarmasterX7.

Olimar now?

Yeah sure why not?

If you need to get anything out of the way with Wario, I suggest you do it now.

Olimar




Introduction: Captain Olimar... who expected him to join the Brawl? Owell, at least he isn't R.O.B. who is just a toy. Olimar is a "slavedriver" who uses his 5 Pikmin types to do all the work for him, each with their own special property. Here's the breakdown:

White - Very fragile, posion property, have the strongest hits, very weak otherwise.

Purple - Timid, can survive strong attacks, short range, strong when thrown as a projectile.

Blue - Normal property, decent all-around fighters, very strong throws, do not get grabbed by them.

Red - Fire property, not much else important about this one

Yellow - Electric property, perhaps can be SDIed out of certain attacks like Uair, thrown at an arch, a lot of disjointed range.

So with all that said, let's move on to what Captain Olimar is going to do with these specific types of Pikmin.


Behaviour: Olimar will of course generate 95% of his damage from the Pikmin, keeping a distance away from you and flailing Pikmin all over the place. Not a really good thing to work around with when you're Sonic. Just because Sonic is a short-ranged fighter though, does not mean that you will lose out badly. Olimar is a very campy character, and does not like going in the air or offstage for that matter. They'll usually hang in the middle of stage, and just throw Pikmin to keep you away from him. You're Sonic, the essence of speed, so even if Olimar has his range, you an usually get around it and still be able to hit the "heart" of the fighter. The few moves he has by the way that don't use Pikmin, are Dash Attack, Nair, Jab, FTilt, DTilt, Whistle, and UTilt.


Commonly Used Moves: FSmash will cover just about any of your approaches on the ground, be it running, SDRing, or whatever you might have in mind. If you happen to get around his FSmash on the ground, there his grabs, which for a Tether grab are really fast, so he isn't open for too long. Up-B Grounded Tether will hit you from about a 45 degree angle, so if you end up short with Spinshot or go a little bit too high with ASC, expect him to hit you out with this move. USmash will protect Olimar from above him, so the usual Dair/Spring drops become void. If Olimar doesn't want to use his Up-B to hit you at that 45 degree angle he can use Fair/Nair to hit you out of most any aerial attack but Bair. His DSmash serves the same purpose as yours: to punish people who abuse the roll-dodges. Pikmin Pluck will instantly pull out any Pikmin in case you have killed off any, and Pikmin throw will be used to latch Pikmin onto you excluding the Purple Pikmin which act just as a strong attack. White Pikmin will do 4% damage per pummel/latched attack, take care of them ASAP. Whistle gives Olimar Super Armor frames to allow him to survive any placed attack you might have, he can use this offstage just so he doesn't get sent a way. Dair can be used to spike you, but for Olimar this shouldn't be landing, use Uair to beat out whatever he has. Uair will be used to camp you out of a predictable Spring to Dair, just be sure to stay unpredictable. Olimar's pivot grab's can't punished by Sonic, don't even try it, seriously.


How to Win: So with all this said, just how can Sonic penetrate this "fortress" of a character? Simple, use your speed and use the right approaches according to what the olimar player does! FSmash can be punish with a simple ASC/Spinshot into a Fair/Bair. Up-B Tether can be worked around by just airdodging at the right moment and punishing from there. USmash, surprisingly, can be beat out with a Dair sometimes, it will cut through the Pikmin and right into Olimar! Up-B is Olimar's only way to recovery assumnig he has no other choice, a simple ledgehog will send him to his doom, but a good Olimar will either not make an opportunity like that too much, or take you down with him. Be sure to tech the Tether or be prepared to recover back onto the ledge if you decide to hang. Olimar cannot attach onto the ledge with his tether if you are on it, if he uses it, it is a guaranteed gimp/edgehog kill. The counter the Whistle's SA frames, just wait a little bit before you release an attack, or use the multi-hit moves, a whole USmash will go right through the duration of the Whistle's SA frames and the last hit should send Olimar packing to space from where he once came! ASC can also sometimes beat Pikmin on priority when it wants to. If Olimar latches Pikmin onto you, simply Nair to take care of them. Here's a fancy trick to keep in mind after you kill Olimar, once he gets back on the recovery platform, he won't have any Pikmin and usually has to spend his invincibility frames plucking Pikmin, well be sure to hunt him down and plant a Spring right under him, it will send Olimar into the air unable to retaliate with Pikmin! Just be sure that he doesn't score an embarrassing NOlimar Star K.O.... Moving on, a DSmash if predicted can be spotdodged, and Olimar is left open for a FTilt, and if they're slow, an FSmash. As for NOlimar's no-Pikmin atatcks, use whatever you have that will outrange it, say Bair or FTilt, it will do the trick. Stay on the move, don't get predictable, and you should be able to claim victory easily.


Recommended Stages: Olimar needs ledges to be able to Tether recover, therefore Frigate Orpheon/Rainbow Cruise are your optimal choices. Avoid any stages with platforms, unless you're confident you can abuse them more than Olimar can, because he can camp under the platform and USmash all night.


Matchup Summary: While there were a lot of different opinions, some saying it was a neutral matchup, others saying that Olimar destroys Sonic, but more agreed to a slight advantage in Olimar's favor. 55:45 Play smart, and pick your attacks wisely, one wrong move could mean the match, but Olimar is defenseless if you pick out the right move for the moment.

Behaviour:
Will not approach because their approaching isn't half as good as their defence. From a distance he will throw Pikmin. However this is no problem, for we can run. Any ballform attack will get pacman off you. Dash attack, N-air, side-B. Blue is usually grab, but sometimes they make you believe that and just smash you. He has incredible range on the air and decent on the ground. Has a meteor smash, but U-air outranges is.

Commonly Used Moves:
Pikmin pluck. When Olimar dies he is immedeatly gonna pluck Pikmin. KILL THEM. I noticed a N-airing Olimar is a winning Olimar, it's a great move. Most don't use it enough . Probably like Sonics D-tilt. . He also uses his F-air and B-air to keep you back. Can spam smashes. Pikmin throw isn't useful in this matchup. U-air when coming from below. IIRC it outprioritizes Sonics D-air. Olimar rarely uses his Tilts. His grabs are godly. Don't shield too much, dodging is better. His grab takes longer than a usual grab. Blue does amazing knockback. White has strong pummels.

How to Win:
GIMP. Gimp Olimar. B-air him off stage and drop Springs/edgehog. Good Olimars don't really get gimped, but still try it. Stutterstepped F-smash could be an hero for you. Throws are always good. I heard Olimar has some "forbidden angle" at about 45 degrees, but I am poorly informed about this. By the sounds of 45 degrees, SH F-air would work.

Recommended Stages:
RAINBOW CRUISE. Also Brinstar and friends. Frigate Orpheon would work too. Choose stages with as little ledges as possible and lots of jumping.

Matchup Summary:
Olimar is a great character, but I can't see how it is in his favour. Sonic has the spring. The safest and funnest gimper ever. 50:50 or 55:45 Sonic.

This is my opinion but I'm not very expierenced with Olimar. If an expierenced Olimar comes along and disproves me, just ignore my foolish opinion. TRUFAX

I want to fight your Olimar Jeff.

Do I have an Olimar? I might, let's play.

I'll make the Olimar export.

I'll keep it 50:50 now. Those were some fun matches. N-air is truly too ****.

Oh God Sonic and Olimar are not an even matchup.

Prepare to get torched.

Also the Wario thing is done, check it out and tell me what I can do to improve it.

I also haven't seen Tenki in like forever, schoolwork must be swamping him.

Hmmm....

-Constantly throwing him off the stage works well
-Dair, Spring ect. quite gimpable
-Whistle gives him super amour, keep that in mind when trying to gimp him
-Keep watch of his Pikmin (purple, red and yellow
-Sonic has no problem if Pikmin attach to him
-I didn't feel that Olimar's height made much of a difference
-Olimar can **** you in the air if you're not carly (Uair, Up B, Bair and Fair)
-This should be played as a bait and punish match
-His smashes have some cool down
-Don't jump into the ****
-Get off a platform ASAP
-Don't spot dodge his grab...

Ban: Battle field?
Counter: Rainbow cruise?

Thoughts?

Kinzer, unless an expierenced Olimar main corrects me and proves me wrong with hard facts, I'll see from the 50:50

GG's Jeff.

But Puffball's Olimar ***** me

That's Puffball, you're Chis. Hmm, my Olimar wasn't trained as well. And we went out pretty even. At high levels, it's a minor advantage Olimar.

Probably one of the harder match ups for Sonic, he has no projectiles which is a huge disadvantage against the King of Camp who need only predict the charge of an opponent who has little to no approach options , save a highly predictable fast speed and a Dash Attack that can easily be grabbed out of.

What I'm trying to say is, Sonic is at a disadvantage against Olimar because all we have to do is sit and wait for your approach since there is nothing you can do to use on the other side of the stage.

Although your speed might make it hard to latch Pikmin, your attack to shake them off is what we are waiting for; a moment to run in, most likely for a grab, and begin our routine Dthrow UpB/Fair. Although there isn't much need for use to approach in the first place.

"who has little to no approach options"
(When I say this, I don't mean he has none I just mean it's hard for him to approach someone with great projectiles when he has none so don't get your panties in a twist about it)

@Chis: Bait an punish is probably easiest for Sonic anyway because of his speed, but don't think we can't play the same game with our Pikmin so be careful when you attempt it because Olimar has some tricks up his sleeve as well.

I still think it's only just in Olimar's favour. 55:45

The only issue is approaching, you need to do a lot of baiting and punishing. Once you're on him and you're pressuring him he's conpletely helpless.
Gimping him isn't as easy as you'd expect.

Pikmin throw is useless here.

X amount of Pikmin on Sonic < Nair.


Yeah, if we're going on the difficulty to approach and stuff, it's 40:60. However, I just can't see how Olimar's going to rack up damage without Pikmin Throw :\

Puddin said:

Probably one of the harder match ups for Sonic, he has no projectiles

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No.

Honesly I think sonic can go even with olimar, i have played a good amount of sonics on this board and will tell you I won, The only reason i win is because spin dash. Every sonic i play abuses this move, i have the timing of that move so much doing it is giving me free damamge. Now the sonics that don't lose to me happen to not even main sonic on the sole fact that the don't try to spin dash over 9000 times and spend there time trying to find options to punish me and use every "at" you guys have. EXAMPLES(SSC ABD DVD LMNOP VHS) or what ever you call your moves now..... moving on..... Bair, Fsmash and spring should be your kill moves. Dthrow is a pretty good scare moves. Also a really good thing to do it on the olimars last stock use your spring when they are coming off there invincabilty frames,(cause olimar has to pluck his pikmin) so they fly up and you punish occordingly. (dont over use this.)


tl;dr STOP USING SPIN DASH

i will add more later...maybe

Edit:USE PRESSURE!!!!!!!!! sonic is scary lol

and you can spring out of our combos.

Puddin said:

Probably one of the harder match ups for Sonic, he has no projectiles which is a huge disadvantage against the King of Camp who need only predict the charge of an opponent who has little to no approach options, save a highly predictable fast speed and a Dash Attack that can easily be grabbed out of.
Sonic can walk at most characters running speed. Almost all his attacks are cancellable. Sometimes SC goes so fast you cant help but shield. ASC is also godly cause it comes in at such a gay angle. If you don't know the Acroynyms, go to the side-b and down-b sticky

What I'm trying to say is, Sonic is at a disadvantage against Olimar because all we have to do is sit and wait for your approach since there is nothing you can do to use on the other side of the stage.
Spam side taunt, make olimar mad

Although your speed might make it hard to latch Pikmin, your attack to shake them off is what we are waiting for; a moment to run in, most likely for a grab, and begin our routine Dthrow UpB/Fair.
N-air is almost no landing lag, SC can be jumped out of immedeatly, Dash Attack can be quickly turned around and get away from Lolimar

Although there isn't much need for use to approach in the first place.
Sonic doesn't have to approach. At the other side of the stage we can just... Wait.

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This is where I outsmart you