This is dead, look for the new matchup thread. Be sure to read the rules.

DanGR · Dec 12, 2008

I got kinda bored so I decided to critique this summary. I'd be glad to answer some questions you guys might have.

Responses in purple.

Olimar

* Against Snake, a common combo from 0-10% is upthrow->upsmash. Quick 25-30%+ depending on the pikmin used for upsmash. In fact, expect to be combo'd out of throws often.

At low percents, Olimar generally combos better horizontally than vertically. The more common combos include
dthrow->grab
dthrow->fair->grab
dthrow->fsmash->grab

He generally chains along the ground and just before Snake gets out of range, he'll usually get thrown or hit into the air where Olimars will begin to use a combination of upairs, nairs, and upbs to continue strings of attacks.

Strategy:

Olimar's best assets are his high priority attacks and great ability to rack up damage fast enough to put even Snake in the danger zone quickly. This is why getting punished in this match-up can be costly. You'll want to play cautious enough, and still get around his offenses to take advantage of his light weight and gimp-able recovery.

Olimar has abysmal priority. What he does have is great range and speed on most of his attacks- which can make it seem like he has good priority.

Note that utilt is the quickest way to get all Pikmin off of you, though I'm unsure if it diminishes utilt's power (but it's likely). However, don't focus on getting latched pikmin off yourself because Olimars can take this opportunity to approach and grab.

Any attack that hits Olimar's pikmin will diminish the attack. Likewise, when Olimar latches a pikmin, it diminishes his latch. (which will diminish the amount of times each pikmin will hit. Normally, it's around 9 times undiminished- whites for 6% each hit, the rest for 4% each hit)

On large, open stages, the mortar is your trump card. I can't emphasize how well shooting mortars in place deters many/most of Olimar's ground approaches, and can still defend you from aerials if you stay behind the path of mortar fall. He also can't grab you in the general vicinity where you did upsmash because the mortar will land on him and allow you to escape. Overall, mortars are great at racking up damage on large stages, upping your defensive game and halting Oli's offense.

It seems that you guys think Snake will be forcing Olimar to approach. Olimar only approaches when it's clear that you're preoccupied with getting pikmin off of you. Otherwise, it's Snake who will be approaching Olimar.

DanGR · Dec 14, 2008

abit_rusty said:
I will also check the other boards to find their verdict and there color will have a * next to the matchup to show it did not come from our boards. It will also be below our boards general verdict.

So the number with the asterisk is from the other character board's matchup thread? And the number above it is from this thread?

edit: sorry, double post

Eternal Yoshi · Dec 14, 2008

DanGR said:
So the number with the asterisk is from the other character board's matchup thread? And the number above it is from this thread?

edit: sorry, double post

Yes it is.

BTW, It was said already that attacking Pikmin will cause the move to stagnate and hopefully the thread will be updated in due time.

Lawlmahbawls · Dec 19, 2008

Diddy Diddy Diddy, an annoying monkey who's only techniques revolve around banana combos and banana camping. Ugh.

For this matchup you really won't have an opportunity to camp, cuz if you stand still for long you're going to get a naner in the grill and combo'd off the stage. The key to this match up really is banana control, your dash attack and DACUS are sooooo good against Diddy. You can swipe the bananas away from him and get a free f-tilt with every throw.

But since Snake has basically no glide toss, you gotta be close (Snake close) to get those Naner setups. You will need small stages with platforms preferably. BF is the perfect CP against Diddy for that matter.

BF provides you with multiple platforms to avoid the naners and plant your explosives, a small stage so combos won't crush you and it is one of Snake's best stages to boot.

IMO this matchup is 50:50 if not a little towards Snake's favor. Disrupting Diddy's "flow" aka bananas leaves him with little options and an easy kill with U-tilt due to his light weight. Ultimately whoever has control of the bananas controls the flow of this battle, and it is SO ANNOYING.

Player-1 · Dec 19, 2008

Snake can DACUS and dash attack diddy's bananas well, I wouldn't bank on it though because eventually you're going to mess up. Diddy can combo Snake easy and can easily get 50-60% damage after a stock is over. If the Diddy player knows what he is doing then he won't use too many smashes in the beginning, but if he does Snake will live to like 180% while killing Diddy at around 120%. Grenades aren't much of a problem for Diddy, the hardest thing I have with grenades is when a Snake player shields with it before a dash attack. Diddy can DHGR (Diddy Hump Grab Release) Snake, it'll work like a normal grab release, so you have to worry about being grab released even while you're recovering.

Snake players would probably do best on BF, and not because of platforms, but because of Snakes tilts. They are quick, and more importantly in this match-up, they have quite a range. Since Battlefield is a small stage, and since Snake has ranged, powerful, fast tilts he can easily interrupt Diddy's momentum. Being on a platform isn't a good idea, Diddy will combo the hell out of you then. I'd ban FD if I were you guys, and if I had to ban a CP, it'd probably be Japes, because it has high ceilings, the flooring of the stage interrupts your recovery easily and you'll fall back into the water, and I MAY be wrong on this but I THINK Snake doesn't get his Up-B back if you grab release him into the water. ANother CP I might watch out for is FO

Ken Neth · Dec 20, 2008

Diddy is one of my seconds, and my friend mains diddy and I get a ton of practice against him as well.

Controlling the bananas is crucial. Without the bananas Diddy is nothing compared to snake. Learn to catch bananas mid throw with your snake dash and dash attack. If you can catch the bananas thrown at you every time you have a much, much easier time approaching diddy.

Camping is not very effective in this matchup. The only times it has worked for me is on a stage like battlefield where I can jump from platform to platform and drop grenades/c4 everywhere, but even then it's not that great.

Tilts outrange most of his attacks. Abuse their range.

Diddy lacks killing moves. Snake can easily live to really high percentages with good DI. Diddy's main kill moves are dsmash, fsmash, fair, and bair. He is also really light so he will die much, much sooner than snake.

Avoid getting spiked when recovering and getting gimped by the diddy hump like Player-1 explained.

I think this match is slightly in snake's favor, or even, depending on the stage. So either 55-45 or 50-50.

Hot_ArmS · Dec 20, 2008

"the hardest thing I have with grenades is when a Snake player shields with it before a dash attack"

i dont get what youre saying? he holds a grenade while shielding and does a dash attack? cause he cant dash attack while holding a nade

do you mean throw it then does a dash attack.......or do you mean diddys dash attack? lol

abit_rusty · Dec 20, 2008

I'll go ahead and reinforce how crucial it is to take his bananas. I was reading a thread not too long ago about how sonic actually is a force to be reckoned with against diddy simply because of his speed + dash attack that plucks bananas effortlessly off the ground. Do the same with Snake, and you'll hinder a major part of diddy's game.

Those who don't play enough diddys may not know this, but if you get your hands on one of his bananas and place it down, diddy can SH over it, then charge up+b until he hits the banana. Diddy will stumble, his rocket barrels will go flying, and they actually have quite potent killing power. It's called barrel-cancelling. Just watch out for that.

Sometimes I think that they put tripping in brawl just for his bananas...

Edit:
@ DanGR, I edited the Olimar match up with the things you've mentioned (I was actually surprised at the point you made about his seemingly deceptive high priority). One thing though, about the approaching. We're not really forcing the approach, but on stages that give enough breathing room, grenades can be a lot more potent than pikmin in terms out outcamping. I've always kept the mantra to be patient against Olimars, knowing pikmin won't be killing you anytime soon, it's often Olimar who has to finish the job. Nades, however, can be a lot more devastating if the Snake can weave them around the pikmin spam.

Dark Ryu · Dec 20, 2008

Hot_ArmS said:
"the hardest thing I have with grenades is when a Snake player shields with it before a dash attack"

i dont get what youre saying? he holds a grenade while shielding and does a dash attack? cause he cant dash attack while holding a nade

do you mean throw it then does a dash attack.......or do you mean diddys dash attack? lol

What Player-1 means is that the Snake player is holding a grenade and then sheilds diddy's dash attack stopping diddy's approach with the nade.

Nitrix · Dec 20, 2008

If a snake knows how to handle a Diddy, then I believe this match is very close. But right now Diddy is underplayed, and this gives him an advantage over the majority of snakes he faces.

I'll go ahead and reinforce how crucial it is to take his bananas. I was reading a thread not too long ago about how sonic actually is a force to be reckoned with against diddy simply because of his speed + dash attack that plucks bananas effortlessly off the ground. Do the same with Snake, and you'll hinder a major part of diddy's game.

Absolutely correct. Diddy is quite strong right now because not many people know how to face him. I play alot of matches where I basically get a free stock because they have no clue of how to handle the bananas.

Diddy's banana game is essential to Diddy. If you can take the bananas, then you will be facing a handicapped character. If the bananas are out, Diddy's stage control can trump Snake's. If a snake knows how to play Diddy, he will adapt to the bananas and still maintain his own control game. Snake has a good dash attack and he needs it in this match to keep up. Snake's dash attack will hurt Diddy's game. If Snake can get control of the match, then Diddy is in for a world of explosives and should lose his stock fairly quickily.

Snake also needs to counterpick stages with platforms, so that he will be more effective. Battlefield is a good choice. Diddy's bananas will land on them and be harder for him to get, and so that Snake's U-Tilt can kill Diddy.

I think it is around 50:50.

sMexy-Blu · Dec 21, 2008

Hot_ArmS said:
"the hardest thing I have with grenades is when a Snake player shields with it before a dash attack"

i dont get what youre saying? he holds a grenade while shielding and does a dash attack? cause he cant dash attack while holding a nade

do you mean throw it then does a dash attack.......or do you mean diddys dash attack? lol

I think he meant when you Nade shield a dash attack.

Staco · Dec 21, 2008

You can make a DACUS/da at diddy, when he throws a banana.
Then you pick up the banana and you make a dacus/da.
Its hard to time, but still possible.

Hot_ArmS · Dec 22, 2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1NZt5e-htA&feature=channel_page&fmt=18

lol Ally only used like 5 nades the whole match

but as you can see, banana control was excellent, didnt rush anything to pick up the bananas

abit_rusty · Dec 22, 2008

Hot_ArmS said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1NZt5e-htA&feature=channel_page&fmt=18

lol Ally only used like 5 nades the whole match

but as you can see, banana control was excellent, didnt rush anything to pick up the bananas

At times once that diddy got momentum...he was pretty dangerous...but Ally is retardedly good and Snake is absurdly heavy. Good DI is going to make this match-up a little less in Diddy's favor.

Dark Ryu · Dec 22, 2008

Good DI can make Snake live to 150+ especially if the Diddy's kill moves are weak and stale.

Matt07 · Dec 23, 2008

Hey, I'm from the Mario boards, and we are doing our Match-Up Index chart. We have you listed as 40/60 in Snake's favour. If you guys agree/disagree explain your opinions here, thanks

.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=212008

-Ran · Dec 23, 2008

Snake can SDI out of Diddy's Forward Smash, which causes him to miss the second hit. I do it all the time after I'm above 100% when I play Esca.

abit_rusty · Dec 23, 2008

Ran Iji said:
Snake can SDI out of Diddy's Forward Smash, which causes him to miss the second hit. I do it all the time after I'm above 100% when I play Esca.

SDI forward/towards?

AfroTastic · Dec 24, 2008

doing the dash attack or DACUS works well on banana throw happy diddy players but i still have a hard time playing good diddy players :\

~PsykoTek~ · Dec 28, 2008

Hmmmm Snake is an even 50-50 w/ Falco.............thats good to know.........and it's perdy much common sense that a good DDD ***** Snake as well as a Glide Toss spammin R.O.B. anyone know how well a good Ike fairs against Snake? Like the jab cancely spammy kind?

G$hbeeb · Jan 6, 2009

the difficulty and rating system for this thread are inconsistent and hard to read.

sometimes its 40:50 our favor then other ifs 50:40 our favor and sometimes its ***

the effort is awesome but a little bit of clarity and consistancy would go a long way

good stuff rusty

Ken Neth · Jan 7, 2009

New match up? We should do sonic

Pretty much the only person I lose to plays sonic and it's gay. X is considered to be one of the best sonics though >_>

Hot_ArmS · Jan 8, 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=182LvQf41fU

DDD is broken against snake!!

Tero. · Jan 11, 2009

Hot_ArmS said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=182LvQf41fU

DDD is broken against snake!!

lolwut

that kinda reminds me at melee poke floats glitch lol

oh yeah diddy kong ...
it's fairly even, he really has problems killing you and you can pick up his bananas with dacus or normal da

Attila_ · Jan 13, 2009

My brother mains diddy, so i verse him everyday... it seems to be about even between us, cant really see an advantage either way. tend not to use nades much on him, cause it gives him an opportunity to pull out some bananas, and even if you dash a and take control of one, then he can barrel cancel and potentially low damage ko. that being said, having the bananas for yourself is always better then leaving them alone, just be wary of the barrel cancel.

snake's ground game wins easily if you take bananas out of the picture, espc ftilt. if he runs at you with a view to combo (usually up smash or throw) pull out a grenade, cause they own him way worse then you even if you cant get the shield up.

edgeguarding is pretty difficult, i only recommend snake hopping off the edge on odd occasions to mix it up, cause diddy has an easy gimp with forward b and a possible ticket with up b. otherwise spam mortars and bounce a few nades near the edge, trying to time them to intercept with up b. but yeah, like i said, pretty difficult.

getting back on the stage i think is the real hard part. generally once im at about 120% i wont hit again until im koed. as per usual, try and drop from above, bair can be a good idea, but only if youre high enough to recover without lag. air stalling is prefered, provided your travelling at an angle, cause with uair can usually hit twice faster than you can air dodge twice. but yeah, just try and get some space. oh, and as far as diddy's spike is concerned, you can usually air dodge it, then follow with bair successfully, although if we're about the same height, i tend to dair, cause it out prioritizes it safely, and diddy cant do too much to you.

thats what i reckon anyway

Snake Sav · Jan 14, 2009

Snakes a Beast!!!!!

napZzz · Jan 14, 2009

ewww diddy

play really gay, camp with nades, have mines out, and grab his bananas and use them against him. Without bananas diddy cant do much to snake <_<

Attila_ · Jan 14, 2009

but unless you apply constant pressure, diddy can simply pull out bananas, and either blow up nades as their throw or push you round the stage. snake recovers a lot worse from tripping then diddy too, which means that its harder to use bananas against diddy too. i say screw camping and abuse your awesome tilts.

napZzz · Jan 15, 2009

shmot said:
but unless you apply constant pressure, diddy can simply pull out bananas, and either blow up nades as their throw or push you round the stage. snake recovers a lot worse from tripping then diddy too, which means that its harder to use bananas against diddy too. i say screw camping and abuse your awesome tilts.

abusing tilts is asking to get nannered :S

Camping with nades and catching the nanners he throws at you is a good way of approaching, by tripping him yoruself

If they roll back, away from you, mortar slide. If they get up attack, mortar slide, dash attack, or tilts if your close, and they roll towards you, do whatever you want pretty much.

If your cooking your nades correctly you shouldn't be worrying about them getting thrown back at you -____-

Ken Neth · Jan 15, 2009

New match up please. We've been on Diddy since Dec. 19th.. So practically a whole month.

SuSa · Jan 15, 2009

This is my fault, and I'm grounded. I actually run this for abit_rusty (although he's the only one who posts).

---Vote on who to discuss next; when I'm ungrounded I'll update---

Ken Neth · Jan 15, 2009

It's all good. Rusty asked me to run it for awhile then college started kicking my butt, so I couldn't keep it up to date. Then that's where you came in, LOL. But even if we can't get the first page updated every week I think we should still start discussing a new character every week, and get the first page updated when you can. That way we can still keep the discussions moving, but you don't have to be overrun with trying to update the first post every week.

SuSa · Jan 15, 2009

Good idea, especially since (personally) I consider most other threads more important than this one.

Because not everyone plays the same, people can change their style , and they may find things that counteract what we say to do.

(personally, matchup threads are near worthless in my opinion, except for 'how x character can **** up y character' (eg; D3 vs Bowser... the infinite cg / small step cg) and 'how to avoid x character from ****ing up y character' (eg; how to beat a d3 as bowser, although it should never happen)

Panix · Jan 15, 2009

I'm thinking wolf, he's played alot or ZSS. or if you want for fun we can get captain falcon out of the way =P

SuSa · Jan 15, 2009

Falcon is 100:0 in every matchup except against Snake, where it's 50:50.

No one can beat his manliness, except himself.

Now then, I vote for Zamus only because that matchup gives me a headache...

Lawlmahbawls · Jan 15, 2009

Olimar

**** grabs

Crew · Jan 16, 2009

I just found this to be funny. You mention how to avoid Battlefield like the plague when vs a Meta. I just got off the Metaknight boards and they say to avoid BF like the plague when vs a Snake.

I've always felt that BF is Snake's stage. If I see that I'm playing a Snake on BF I'm usually like "AWWWW!"

Hot_ArmS · Jan 16, 2009

LOL for real??

the metaknights here in michigan love battlefield against me, well and RC but i **** in that stage for some reason lol

SuSa · Jan 16, 2009

They only avoid BF because they can die pretty early off the sides and the top.

But we can easily get put off stage and killed off the sides via a shuttle loop that puts you at next-to-no danger.

It's a pretty 'even' stage I suppose, but I avoid it like the plague because I have never, not once, beat an MK near my level (even below my level) on BF.

I prefer smashville, that platform likes to save me a lot, and I use it a ton for c4's obviously, which helps get some easier kills.

Panix · Jan 16, 2009

I avoid orphanage. I can't stand a stage that flips. and has moving platforms that go off screen.

This is dead, look for the new matchup thread. Be sure to read the rules.

BRoomer

BRoomer

I've covered ban wars, you know

Smash Journeyman

Smash Legend

Smash Champion

Smash Hero

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Smash Hero

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Smash Master

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Smash Apprentice

Smash Cadet

Smash Cadet

Smash Champion

Smash Hero

Smash Champion

The artist formerly known as 'shmot'

Smash Rookie

Smash Hero

The artist formerly known as 'shmot'

Smash Hero

Smash Champion

Banned via Administration

Smash Champion

Banned via Administration

Smash Ace

Banned via Administration

Smash Journeyman

Smash Apprentice

Smash Hero

Banned via Administration

Smash Ace

Information

Network