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How To Deal With Specific Enemy Moves #11----TOON LINK + SPAM

Villi

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Falco's down throw? He can't really chain grab as there are various ways you can escape or punish depending on your percent, but he can down throw to DACUS for good damage. He can also down throw to down air into a tech chase.

Even if it's not discussed at length, I'd like to hear what you guys do against it. I have some basic strategies that mostly involve DI and/or foot stooling him.

Maybe adding lasers in would be good.
 

Kataefi

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Snake has been updated. Let me know if there's anything horribly wrong =p

Also... because we've already got discussion going on with Luigi's firepunch thingy then we'll cover more if we do something else.

Falco's dthrow follow-ups and lasers are the next moves to be discussed!! Go!! >.>

Also... I fight 2 good falcos almost daily... and lasers are annoying but not problematic. Nair outprioritises a lot of his aerial moveset, so jump over lasers and din's occasionally to allow yourself to close in. Also, bair and fair outrange his entire aerial moveset except possible his bair, and his moves are not disjointed in the air so Zelda can take him on reasonably well.

Sometimes powershielding and then approaching works wonders. Falco love to SH laser, and hyphen USmash wrecks that.
 

8AngeL8

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As Falco, I'm not at all afraid of your camp. Din's fire is easily spotdodged/shielded, and we can laser faster than you can Din's fire. Even if you use Nayru's love, our reflector lasts longer so you end up eating the laser.
If you want to get around Falco's lasers, you'll have to close in. Do full hops over their lasers. If Falco wants to follow you in the air, great. Your aerials have big hitboxes and do a lot of damage, so abuse them. Don't let him come up from directly beneath. If he comes from the sides, nair and Fair/Bair should take care of him. If you catch him above you, Usmash has a practically broken hitbox, so use it.

As far as the Dthrow is concerned, Zelda has less to worry about than most. She's very floaty so it's difficult for Falco to chain her. The regular Dthrow chain doesn't work at all, so he only has a few options. First, he can do Dthrow -> FFdair -> Dthrow -> FFdair. It's fairly easy to DI away and then roll to get out of this, though. A better option for Falco is to not even try to chain, but use Dthrows to lead into a DACUS. Unfortunately, getting grabbed at 0% will lead into this almost certainly, but you shouldn't be getting grabbed at zero. Zelda can outspace Falco while grounded, and generally wins out in the air. Don't let yourself get grabbed until you've taken at least 20 damage, because you'll be able to DI out of anything Falco can follow up with, save lasers or a phantasm, which does very little damage anyway.
 

sniperworm

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Falco's Dthrow, well, there's not much you can really do (since it's a throw which means he's already grabbed you). DI, tech roll if you eat Dair, Naryu's if their timing is bad, and of course the most obvious is try not to get grabbed in the first place.

I've kicked a Falco while he was trying to follow up a Dthrow before, but I'm certain that it's because he screwed up his timing.

Lasers are annoying but they don't do much damage. What Falco is really looking for is an opening, so make sure you don't give him one while trying to deal with the lasers. Be wary of his lasers while recovering. Lasers can't outright gimp us, but they set us up to be gimped because of the long startup on our UpB, so we should be careful. Make sure you don't let him eat your second jump with a laser (you know, standard stuff).

What really bothers me is Falco's jab. It's annoying that Falco's jab pretty much beats Zelda's entire grounded arsenal and is very safe too (against Zelda, not sure about other characters).
 

PK-ow!

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Falco's Dthrow, well, there's not much you can really do (since it's a throw which means he's already grabbed you). DI, tech roll if you eat Dair, Naryu's if their timing is bad, and of course the most obvious is try not to get grabbed in the first place.

I've kicked a Falco while he was trying to follow up a Dthrow before, but I'm certain that it's because he screwed up his timing.

Lasers are annoying but they don't do much damage. What Falco is really looking for is an opening, so make sure you don't give him one while trying to deal with the lasers. Be wary of his lasers while recovering. Lasers can't outright gimp us, but they set us up to be gimped because of the long startup on our UpB, so we should be careful. Make sure you don't let him eat your second jump with a laser (you know, standard stuff).
Indeed, in some cases when in the air, I chose to eat the laser rather than dodge, and I'm convinced it was the right move.

If he is lined up with you, a Nayru's ought to stun him if you're close enough, in which case he can't output another laser without waiting.
If he isn't line up with you, don't give him the opening. He's probably not able to approach just then.

If he's far off, shield/dodge whatever, and get closer.

What really bothers me is Falco's jab. It's annoying that Falco's jab pretty much beats Zelda's entire grounded arsenal and is very safe too (against Zelda, not sure about other characters).
Wouldn't, say, dtilt trade hits? Or your own jab be able to get him?
 

Kataefi

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Shield and roll away from his jab or SDI away if you're caught. It does little damage this way. Also, Dtilt clanks and FSmash outranges.

I always thought lasers did so much damage for their use! They really don't! Powershielding works great against them.

He'll almost always use his reflector from a jab so be prepared to shield.

(also - his reflector has 100% trip rate on Zelda when she's at exactly 104% and possibly above.)
 

Villi

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Lasers also cause very little hitstun. Something Falcos like to do is approach with short hopped lasers and try to upsmash you as soon as they're in range. A down smash is a good punishment for this when he thinks he's got you caught off guard by a laser hit.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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We can lightning kick him out of Dthrow... serioiusly. it's sexy and makes him stop trying to chinthrow us. :chuckle:
 

sniperworm

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Shield and roll away from his jab or SDI away if you're caught. It does little damage this way. Also, Dtilt clanks and FSmash outranges.
Fsmash and Ftilt technically outrange, but he can hit Zelda as she leans forward to attack (assuming that Falco was in range of said moves) and since the jab is significantly faster it's definitely doable. Dtilt does clank but his jab is faster and has longer range...

But yeah, I said it was annoying, not that it deals you like 50 percent per stock or anything. Although it would honestly be a lot less annoying if we could just shield grab his jab, but our grab is too slow.
 

Fieryblast

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Chain grabs aren't really a threat to Zelda, for the most part, because she doesn't stay in the chain for all that long. The problem is what he'll do after the Dthrow if he knows that... which usually isn't really avoidable at low percentages. Falcos have an advantage with their projectile... it is too fast for us to counter with Din's Fire. Generally, unless the Falco user is in the air, it isn't a great idea to use Din's Fire. I've noticed that I can spot-dodge a falco spamming his blaster for quite a long period of time-- that gives me some time to consider what the best option is, and occasionally the Falco gets annoyed and decides to approach you instead. Better Falco's don't tend to camp with the blaster though-- they use it as their means of approaching. It is particularly dangerous in this instance, because they'll almost certainly manage to get some damage in... whether by hitting you with a laser or actually getting close enough to get an attack in. If the Falco is trying to use the blaster as a means of approaching, it seems to me that the best option is to avoid the lasers as best as you can, and try to turn the tables when he gets close enough. If the Falco is just camping, usually the best option is to go after them. Otherwise, I find Falcos occasionally get rather careless, thus allowing us to reflect a few shots back at them. Obviously, you don't want to spam Nayru's Love, or he'll seriously be punishing you-- just mix it in occasionally along with your dodging.
 

DarkThundah

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I dont know if we have already but can we please discuss G&W's key? It goes right through Zelda's upsmash, has low lag(Dair^downsmash=****) , some knockback and its fairly fast.

Suppose you can position yourself so that you catch him in the edge of an ^smash and hes comming down, or maybe an upair hard timeing though. But I do wonder if using a naru's works, maybe with the startup invincibility or something.

Anyone have any experience fighting GW for what the best responce to Dair is?
 

-Mars-

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I dont know if we have already but can we please discuss G&W's key? It goes right through Zelda's upsmash, has low lag(Dair^downsmash=****) , some knockback and its fairly fast.

Suppose you can position yourself so that you catch him in the edge of an ^smash and hes comming down, or maybe an upair hard timeing though. But I do wonder if using a naru's works, maybe with the startup invincibility or something.

Anyone have any experience fighting GW for what the best responce to Dair is?
Lol, walk two steps away and fsmash him.


As for Falco I generally just Full-hop airdodge and try to predict if he's going to IAP or not. If your up against a serious camp based Falco......you really just have to stick with powershielding and every now and again throw out Naryus. Ban FD and pray he doesn't take you to Japes or Halberd. As long as your not on those stages, his lasers aren't to big of a problem. I also try to spotdodge them as often as possible because the whole reason behind them is to force you into your shield. Just because Falco can't chaingrab doesn't mean Zelda takes away his grab game............he has **** combos out of his grab.
 

Kataefi

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must update this soon...

anymore moves anyone's having serious problems with? We could do rob considering he's the next matchup??
 

#HBC | Scary

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Marsulas you are so right about those **** combos!

Sorry I'm a little late to this, yes LK out of his Dthrow is amazing, but what hapeens if he decides to do the boost pivot grab? He can very easily get another Dthrow and the possibility of either the gatling combo, FF Dair, or another grab if he can guess us right. Perhaps instead of tying to hit wth an LK, maybe we can hit with Nair (though I'm not sure it comes out quick enough) because it covers us on both sides if he wants to try and gey another grab. If the Falco buffers right, I don't think NL is an option, and I've tried against my teammate and RedHalberd; it just didn't work for me :(.

As far as the lasers go, I try to go on the offense with a full hop air dodge with Dtilt ready as soon as I hit the ground or spotdodge and use either Fsmash or Ftilt to keep him out of range (although sniperworm is right about Falco being able to beat out said attacks). If all else fails, powersheilding is awesome! :chuckle:
 

Kataefi

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About bloody time I updated this.

Okay so Falco is updated. Go read if you want to get passed his really annoying lasers.

And the next move to discuss is Toon Link's projectile spam! The way we should do this is to look at each of his 3 different projectiles as separate things that Zelda must react to differently.

If I face a spammy toon link, I always reflect back the boomerange, spotdodge or try and powershield the arrows and use din's to explode his own bombs. Obviously there's more to it than that because everyone's moving around, but in general this is what I try and do.

What about you guys?! (I call over the toon link mains)
 

urdailywater

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I copied and pasted your posted questions on our boards.

- What makes TL's projectile spam so good? The reasons are pretty obvious. We can have so many projectiles out at once that can stop enemies in their tracks. It's hard to deal with unless you have a projectile deflecter *cough, regular B*

- Is there a set pattern to the way he uses projectiles, or does it happen all in the moment? Not really a set pattern. It's all dependant on the situation. Usually if I'm far away from Zelda, I'll just take out a bomb. At midrange I'll use my boomerang / arrows and throw bombs, and at close range it's all sword play. And zair. LOTS of Zair. It actually needz moar z-air.

- What are Zelda's scaring moves as you fire projectiles? I might be reading this wrong.. "Scarring", you mean? Bleh, anyways, I hate Neutral B, absolutely. Hate it close-range and mid. But dins fire is also annoying since you can kind of stop us from spamming. Anything else.. not to sure..


Okay, anyways. Just try to reflect our projectiles as best as possible but stay far away from TL and use dins fire to build up the damage. That's what usually gets me. Neutral B also annoys me badly when I try to short hop double arrow.

Take caution with TL is all I can say. Although the same goes for us ; _ ;

If it were me playing a Zelda.. I'd try to strictly use bombs, zair, and sword play..

I'll try to get more TL's here though so you can get some more info..
 

Kataefi

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Oops, missed out a letter. Scarring as in the moves that really leave a hole in your projectile spam, moves that you basically need to watch out for - but your post pretty much covered everything I was looking for! More toon links would be great! Thankyou!
 

Villi

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Toon Link's projectiles are highly power shieldable. Only thing that is sometimes a momentum breaker is a charged arrow, but it's really not enough. Bombs you can just shield and catch with an aerial as they won't hurt you after they've made contact with your shield.
 

Ho-oh

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Toon links uses some orders to use them that makes them get less lag(check TL boards), so if you learn them, you should have a good chance. You can also just use nayru, even though the projectiles will fall before they get near TL, you can get a chance to approach while he sets up the next projectile spam.
 

TLMarth

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We can sort of have multiple projectiles hitting you in succession.
Projectile spam is good because we can have this constant-ish barrage.
Bombs are hard to stop because they don't disappear after hitting a shield.

Reflector is annoying, certainly

Patterns: you can expect another projectile coming after the first.
 

iRjOn

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Toon Link's projectiles are highly power shieldable. Only thing that is sometimes a momentum breaker is a charged arrow, but it's really not enough. Bombs you can just shield and catch with an aerial as they won't hurt you after they've made contact with your shield.
I wanna see you power shield all of our projectile spam...
XD

But on a real note
Our projectile spam is a pattern but its different for nearly every Toon Link.
But most projectile spammage happen during the moment.
After alot of moves a random arrow will poke you
:D
Especially aerials!
Its good because it disruptes the enemies flow if you do powershield or normal shield thats probally enough time for us to get in you face and hit you with something stronger or RAR for the bair combo.

It basically opens the opponet up.
But against Zelda from Toon Link you wont see too many arrows mostly bombs and rangs

There really aren't any of Zelda's moves that scar our wall.
Her Naru's love is kinda laggy and we aren't close enough for you to reflect anything but our rang back to hit us.
The only move I see troublesome is Din's fire.
It stops us in the middle of action, basically absorbs our attack.
:\
But really no moves in Zeldas arsonal scar our wall.

EDIT:
Forgot to add guy I quoted
Most Toons dont charge arrows
D:
Thats easier shielded than our bow cancels
:\

AND
That bomb you just shielded if you try and catch it your probally gonna get a zair or a nair to the face then if we catch it a extra bomb to the face then the spam just restarts
:p

But seriously I'm not flaming you no biggie.
Just explaining the stiuation.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Toon Link's projectiles are highly power shieldable. Only thing that is sometimes a momentum breaker is a charged arrow, but it's really not enough. Bombs you can just shield and catch with an aerial as they won't hurt you after they've made contact with your shield.
maybe you have amazing reflexes, but pwersheilding his every attack is not realistic. even when we DO powersheild, it doesn't actually hurt toon link at all. it just prevents us from being hurt by them. since toonie normally follows up his projectiles, you miss one powershield and he's probably going to grab you during sheild stun.

Normally, however, toon links are smart. they'll poke with zair which is unpunishable by zelda, even powersheilded, since it has greater range then anything she can retaliate with and has zero landing lag and then he'll throw a projectile if you TRY to retaliate. basically toon link can poke all day and stop zelda's every coneterattack with projectiles.

nayru's is nearly usesless for turning the projectiles against toonies unless you have near clairvoyant prediction abilites and normally he'll just punish your cooldown. basically the best way to deal with his projectiles is to ALWAYS pay careful attention to his habits, to ALWAYS know the properties of each projectile and to take careful stock of the current situation. Normally you have multiple options for dealing with any projectile he has, but some are going to be better in a given situation, and toonie normally has a resoponse for any response you have if YOU are predictable.

people act as if toonies blindly spam projectiles so you can just sit there and sheild them all day until he decides to "fight for real" well the problem is, he pulls them out WHEN he fights for real. if your defense against toonie is to try to powersheild everything, then it should be obvious we're going to get ***** in this matchup. I mean, that essentially means "we can't try to counterattack him. We have to spend the entire match rooted in place trying to block what he throws at us." The best you can do in that case is break even.

Zelda' has one defense against toonie's projectile game "Luigi's Mansion" Anything else we do is situational. Powersheilding is not how you "deal" with his projectile game. if you're doing that, then toon link has already won because he's forced you too abandon attempts to get agressive with him. It's not as tangible as the taking damage from his projectile game, but forcing you to behave like a cornered weakling is JUST as hurtful to you as taking damage.

Zelda has NEVER delt well with spam. it's one of her greatest weaknesses and Toonie has perhaps the most versitile projectile game in Brawl. Zelda has NO reliable counter to his projectile game that is viable besides CPing Luigi's mansion. his projectile game will wear us down and he'll kill us. it's that simple. He can punish about any attack we make with a projectile. he's almost invincible to us while he's at mid range. You can say we have slightly better killing power in the matchup, but when he can deal 100 damage in the time it takes us to deal 20, it really doesn't matter.

Toonies projectile game destroys us. we have to deal with every projectile on a case by case basis and that just KILLS us because it's normally not a "win or lose" choice, but rather a "lose or break-even" choice. Sorry to be so much of a downer. but I think it's LUDICROUS that we have toonie listed as a 50:50 matchup. I agree with Quivo (in our matchup thread) that it's no BETTER for us than 65:35 his advantage because zelda simply can't do anything against his projectile spam besides block it... which only really delays things. A good toon link will probably be the hardest fight that you'll ever have to put up with as a zelda.... so good luck with that.
 

Bandit

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So, you wanna play?
people act as if toonies blindly spam projectiles so you can just sit there and sheild them all day until he decides to "fight for real" well the problem is, he pulls them out WHEN he fights for real. if your defense against toonie is to try to powersheild everything, then it should be obvious we're going to get ***** in this matchup. I mean, that essentially means "we can't try to counterattack him. We have to spend the entire match rooted in place trying to block what he throws at us." The best you can do in that case is break even.
Wouldn't that be like... a 50-50 match-up? Just sayin'...

Toonies projectile game destroys us. we have to deal with every projectile on a case by case basis and that just KILLS us because it's normally not a "win or lose" choice, but rather a "lose or break-even" choice. Sorry to be so much of a downer. but I think it's LUDICROUS that we have toonie listed as a 50:50 matchup. I agree with Quivo (in our matchup thread) that it's no BETTER for us than 65:35 his advantage because zelda simply can't do anything against his projectile spam besides block it... which only really delays things. A good toon link will probably be the hardest fight that you'll ever have to put up with as a zelda.... so good luck with that.
But you just said blocking it would have us break even. Just sayin'...

You can say we have slightly better killing power in the matchup, but when he can deal 100 damage in the time it takes us to deal 20, it really doesn't matter.
20 Damage for Zelda = 1 move
"slightly" better killing power = me nearly soiling my pants:laugh:

I believe you are still in the minority with your opinion of TL. I agree that he is tough and the projectiles suck, but it is not as bad as what you are making it out to be (and you are using your crutch again tsk tsk). You are suppose to tell us how to deal with his spam, not pick a stage where you can completely avoid it.

I know you feel strongly on this matchup, but this thread is for figuring out what works instead of simply saying NOTHING works.

I have had no problem catching bombs and using them to screw up timing or at least diverting a TL from his plan. NL is situational and simply should be used as a combo breaker. Shield is your best friend.
 

Kataefi

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I think your being a tad overly dramatic. His projectiles are bad, but their pace is slow, unlike someone such as falco's lasers or pit's arrows. Just take it really really slow.

If you rush in, you're dead. But if you do manage to get in his zone it's not like Zelda is destroyed. And Nayru's works well against him at a middle range. You can also farores closer to him whilst his gets out a bomb or throwing his boomerang. If it gets you closer then thats good enough, because she outranges the majority of his moves, and his FSmash shouldn't be killing her with the right DI. His grab throw is laggy if it misses, so spotdodge that. Just get in close and if you get it right you can do a lot of damage.

And din's from afar. Din's is good because his projectile game doesn't travel fast or have that much range. A surprise din's from mid range can be good as well.

This isn't a matchup discussion but 65:35 is a bit ludicrous - if you're struggling that much with his spam then you need to practise tons against it and get yourself to a level where you're more prepared.
 

Villi

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I don't have to powershield every projectile, but I can do it while running the majority of the time or walking if I'm pretty close. Sometimes I end up normal shielding them, but it's not that bad as even a guaranteed grab most of the time. Heck, shielding isn't even the only thing you can do -- Naryu's... just maneuvering around them with jumps and air dodges. Approaching through his projectiles is how you deal with him. Get close and keep him close.

Edit: Powershielding has 0 lag. His projectils don't even have much shield hit stun, but the attacks do have cool down lag. If you do shield a projectile at close range, you have time to punish him with at least a dash attack. I enjoy chasing that little ***** down. lol

Edit2: I just reread irjon's post. You can also catch bombs with an air dodge or not at all. I don't want to argue too much into the situation. I know a good TL doesn't "spam" so much as use his projectiles appropriately for the situation and that's why a good TL might charge an arrow when he realizes you'll try to powershield. It's just a mix-up I remembered being used on me that I thought was annoying.
 

iRjOn

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I don't have to powershield every projectile, but I can do it while running the majority of the time or walking if I'm pretty close. Sometimes I end up normal shielding them, but it's not that bad as even a guaranteed grab most of the time. Heck, shielding isn't even the only thing you can do -- Naryu's... just maneuvering around them with jumps and air dodges. Approaching through his projectiles is how you deal with him. Get close and keep him close.

Edit: Powershielding has 0 lag. His projectils don't even have much shield hit stun, but the attacks do have cool down lag. If you do shield a projectile at close range, you have time to punish him with at least a dash attack. I enjoy chasing that little ***** down. lol
The projectile we mostly spam is laggless
And Narus love at mid range wont completely reflect a uncharged arrow.
It will hit the ground.
But no one can maintain perfert mid range
Only projectile you can capitalize on is our boomerrang.
Most Toons use it in a retreating SH anyway so that is kind of difficult still to punish.

I'm not saying this match up is 65:35 or w/e
idc what it is number wise
Just correcting you all
:D
 

Kataefi

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The projectile we mostly spam is laggless
And Narus love at mid range wont completely reflect a uncharged arrow.
It will hit the ground.
But no one can maintain perfert mid range
Only projectile you can capitalize on is our boomerrang.
Most Toons use it in a retreating SH anyway so that is kind of difficult still to punish.

I'm not saying this match up is 65:35 or w/e
idc what it is number wise
Just correcting you all
:D
Yeah thats cool! I really don't see it as 65:35 at all. But this was never meant to be a matchup discussion in the first place. You're being very helpful.

When Zelda gets through your spam, what's the first thing you do?
 

iRjOn

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If the Zelda makes it through not at kill % my main goal is to either retreat a zair if I have the stage room or nair her out.
But nair wont be a useful one all the time because of nair range is rather short.
If Zelda shields it idk but her OoS options might be really good or she might just fsmash me which really hurts me.
I might also dash away considering our dash speed is better.
But still not too far where I hit long range cause Zelda pwns Toon Link there.

Our uncharged arrows if reflected go alittle less than mid range.
No one can maintain perfect mid range or spacing.
I was say basically at perfect mid range naru's love wont reflect the arrow back far enough if the arrows uncharged.
But Zelda is moving closer preventing us from keeping perfect mid range.
Thus she is bond to reflect one of our arrows close enough to hit us if we are spammimg.
That all
You understand me?
 

Villi

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Yes, thanks. Well I'd prefer not to use something as laggy as Naryu's mid-close range just because I'd like to stay there as long as possible and can't have you running away again; so it's just a matter of doing that when she gets passed his projectiles.
 

iRjOn

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Drawing my imagination, in GA
Yea but dont worri Toon Link wont run unless this battle reaches close range with Zelda at low %s
We must be with in mid range in this match.
Close range hurts and Long range is just worse...
 

Kataefi

*smoke machine*
Joined
Oct 12, 2008
Messages
3,377
Location
igloo
This is true! And for toon link to get the kill he must get close to Zelda also. Would you say he uses his projectile game primarily to be on the offence or is he more a defensive character? (I'm thinking both?)
 

sniperworm

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
520
Location
Pearl City, HI
Toon Link's projectiles are crazy. There's like arrows and bombs everywhere, with boomerangs swooping back and forth across the stage and once I get remotely near him, a freaking lagless hook shot and lots of sword swings keep coming my way :dizzy:

Now on a slightly more serious note, I like to use Din's against TL. Retreating Din's glides (adjusting jump height and glide distance to dodge his projectiles) can help encourage TL to stop camping so much. Approaching Din's glides (purposely getting hit by an arrow to cancel it out the "channeling" almost immediately while still curving the fire into the ground near them) is a fun way to actually get close to TL (since it's pretty scary to see a Din's Fire and Zelda coming after you at the same time).

Of course I like to use Din's against all characters, so maybe I'm just an idiot...
 
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