R.O.B. Match-Up Discussion Week #10: Game and Watch

Go!

That's not how bair looks, s'more like this- click, and click.

Sudai...that pic is win O_o

Thanks JJ

Neb said:

That's not how bair looks, s'more like this- click, and click.

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You're obviously missing the other important aspect of the picture. ; )

Bucket? Well I suppose you're right, .

I like the picture, but I don't like the matchup

ROB has a few good qualities about him. He has a nice laser, pretty good range, and nice recovery. Unfortunately, G&W pretty much nullifies these. The laser can be bucketed if you're at all predictable with it, his dtilt and aerials (little bit later) make me cry, and he has enough options to rack up damage AND get the kill that it's almost plain unfair.

ROB has a few... not-so-good qualities about him. He doesn't handle being juggled well, he doesn't have the best KO options, and he's just a bigger character (target) in general. Unfortunately, G&W pretty much punishes these too. At lower levels of play, you'll see a bunch of his back airs flying at you (the turtle, hence, the picture). It's pretty simple, and it's really effective. It has 5 hits doing 3 damage each, and it really depletes your shield quickly. Even if you try to sidestep-downsmash, you can still get hit with this if the G&W knows what he's doing. Once you start playing better G&Ws, you'll start to see annoying things such as... EVERYTHING. His upair can give him a chance to keep ROB above him (where ROB really doesn't do well), his nair is harsh when coming from below, and his fair is pretty nice to boot. Avoid stages like Battlefield at all costs. You do NOT want to be caught on a platform with a game and watch anywhere near you.

Punishing G&W isn't so easy either. You won't be shieldgrabbing his dair (the key) as often as you'ld like unless your opponent has bad spacing. It can hit you through platforms if you're just standing there, but ducking, rolling away, or even shielding (if your shield is big enough) takes care of this. Coming more from the sides, ROB's nair can beat out the key, but it's always risky to try. GaW's dthrow puts you on the ground similar to snake's, except you can immediately techroll to a side. The timing for pressing the tech button is after the 4th "ping," or you can count the juggling balls, and it's when ROB is all the way on one side of them.

GaW's smashes... ...yea. All of them are very strong and give him better options for killing ROB than ROB has for killing him. His fsmash has a lingering hitbox, his Upsmash is really powerful (and has some kind of super armor when the hitbox animation begins), and his downsmash, which hits on both sides of him, is good too.

All in all, GaW is just much more mobile than ROB his. He can harass ROB by juggling him, especially on stages with platforms. He has a pretty nice offstage game, and can pressure ROB's recovery quite a bit. You're going to have to space yourself almost perfectly to get some ftilts or aerials in. He has better setups and better killing moves. Even though he's really light, the discovery of bucket braking allows him to survive quite a bit longer than before. I've only really played a few GaWs that actually use bucket braking to its full extent, but it's great for cancelling momentum. Be careful with camping with lasers, use gyros as necessary for helping to rack up damage.

30:70 Game and Watch. It's even worse on Battlefield.

Usmash doesn 't have any special properties, just a hell of a hitbox. Also, laser kinda works like a double-edged sword, giving G&W a fifth KO move at considerably low percentages, but also negating his bucket braking AT.

ROB vs GnW.....
Horrible
30/70

Neb said:

Usmash doesn 't have any special properties, just a hell of a hitbox. Also, laser kinda works like a double-edged sword, giving G&W a fifth KO move at considerably low percentages, but also negating his bucket braking AT.

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And priority to boot.

Sudai your choice of picture is fantastic =p

my input for this will to have you guys look at the matchup summary i did for rob a little while ago.

Rob: (65/35)

General Matchup:

* Rob specializes in a very good projectile game, excellent recovery, and decent reach and combos.
* Rob doesn't have a particularly amazing amount of priority on his attacks, however he does have pretty good reach in the places that he needs it. Ftilt is probably among one of the best speed/range ratio moves in the game. This, coupled with smart use of his laser and gyro can make it difficult to approach rob. The fair, nair, dtilt, uptilt, and bair also have pretty decent range, so watch out for that.
* Rob has been somewhat notorious for lacking in the kill move department. If saved, the nair makes for a good kill move, however, due to its great versatility, rob players tend to use this move to approach and to punish in the air. The fsmash, upsmash, and bair also are decent kill moves as well, along with the upthrow (usually kills around 160 and up on gw most stages).
* Rob's recovery is interesting in this matchup. Against most characters, rob has very little trouble recovering due to how far his up b can get him. However, against mk and gw, rob finds himself in a difficult bind returning to the stage. Through a combination of up b, neutral b, fairs, dtilts, up airs, and dairs, gw can make it near impossible for rob to recover.
* Rob will probably have some of the best edgeguarding against gw that any character has. Because rob can venture so far off the stage, he has no problem dropping very low into gw's recovery path to interrupt him. Fairs and bairs can easily push gw back out into a bad spot. Keep an eye on the rob trying to interrupt you and try to get a fair/nair out before they can start pressuring you on your way back.
* Rob has some combos to take note of. Fair chaining on and off the stage is very possible and you should attempt to di away and up b as soon as possible to interrupt this. Dtilt locks against walls are also tricky to avoid in some situations given how fast the move is, and this move can be a very nice setup for grabs as well. Dthrow to upair at 0 percent can rack up a quick thirty damage, so also watch for this.
* Gw's combos are pretty run of the mill in this matchup. Rob's large frame helps gw to catch him in nairs and bairs, and also uptilt chains at low percent. Robs tech roll is a bit below average, so tech chasing him is certainly within reason given that he has a large frame to boot. Up air pressure works alright, however b sticked gyros and bairs certainly can shift his momentum enough to possibly throw you off.


General Strategies:

* When on the stage a campy rob can be difficult to deal with. Rob can very easily beat a lot of your aerial approaches by simply walking out of range and forward tilting. This will beat even the turtle approach if done right. Make sure you know how to mix up your approaches and even become over aggressive with cross up nairs or simple grabbing to throw the rob off. Also watch out for the uptilt, which will often times hit you when your above him trying to get behind him, and its even fast enough to beat your key if you start at the same time. When they move even further away, make sure to watch for the laser and bucket, the cooldown of the laser is usually high enough to ensure you won't get punished for bucketing. When facing the gyro try to avoid it and pick it up, giving you a nice glide toss approach which can get you in his face quickly.
* Edgeguarding rob is really where gw gains a large advantage in this matchup. Sit on the ledge and toss bacon if they are coming from the side or below diagonally. If they come from above dj up b will usually knock them back out. If they come from below, rar'd key near the edge will hit them. When they get closer, switch from bacon to dtilt usually, rob's will approach with aerials or try to grab the ledge. If they come from below try to get a key out like before. Dtilt beats upairs from below and fairs spaced. Jumping off and fairing can also work well in your favor if you know when to use it. If they grab the ledge, wait and shield when you see movement. If they get up attack, you can sh a fair to knock them back out. If they roll turn around and grab them/throw them out. If they get up, this can throw you off, try to predict it and grab them. If they jump from ledge, either jump nair to up b or just up b to knock them back out. If you rinse and repeat this method, they will run out of gas shortly and die. Of course smart players will have their tricks too, this doesn't mean gw will always kill rob if he's off the stage. Lasers, going under the stage, smart up b'ing can all help save the rob.
* This matchup is very simple after getting around the camping and edgeguarding issues. Make use of your range in this matchup as it is usually better than the robs in the air when they approach you. If you work your kill moves in at the right time (they have a hard time killing gw's, so you will likely not get punished as hard for whiffing) then you will likely be able to take the matchup without much trouble.


Stages:

* Rob is actually quite proficient on all the stages that gw is good on. If corneria is on certainly go for that, but other than that go for neutrals in my opinion.
* There's nothing in particular you should ban, as the stages rob is good on gw doesn't have a particular disadvantage on. Although do take note of the stages rob might be able to dtilt lock you on (you can do it back too!)

DI OUT OF THE TURTLE!!!

so many people just sit there and eat the turtle, but against a poorly timed turtle it's a free nair for ROB (or any character for that matter)...

di-ing up/away or up/towards depending on the situation will result in GAW landing with that horrid landing lag bair has... the turltle's hitbox stays out on the ground, but if you're in the air he's vulnerable for a long time

being predictable with the lazers will result in buckets, but at the same time if he's waiting for a laser, he's gotta watch out for the top... also, doing nothing (not lasering) is a huge mindgame against a bucket-happy GAW... I've definitely killed a few of them just by making them fall far enough to ledge properly while they were waiting for my lazer

also, there's mad lag on the bucket when he catches something, so if you're in medium range (say, jumping forward) and lazer, if he catches it you can get a free smash off on him

properly spaced, robs nair will beat most of GAW's moves, including the turtle (all be it you've gotta be coming from above/below)

learn to tech GAW's down throw, and to not be predictable with which direction you go... it's not too hard to learn to avoid the immediate punish (jab or dsmash) from the black menace, but if he guesses right he'll just grab you again (that is if he doesn't go for the "free" hit)

learn to fear the box more than the turtle... when rob is off the edge, he relies on his up-b to get back, and can't airdodge... gaw's box (fair // credit card // whatever) comes out extremely fast and will kill at very low percentages because he can go out and chase so far off the ledge

a well placed bair is a perfect counter for GAW's key... the disjointedness of it means that gaw gets hit while you don't (gotta time it very well), and more often than not he has already used up both of his jumps... i think usmash will either lose or trade hits with the key, so this is also an appropriate response...

rob has the hardest time with gaw's NAIR... the fishbowl of doom is extremely hard to DI out of, it has almost no lag on gaw's part, and it combo's into itself for massive damage... my strategy (other than not let them set up for it) is to just hard di off the ledge and then grab it (or land if there's room)... as far as I know, nothing rob has goes through his nair except for the top and laser (which go through pretty much everything)... this is of course if GAW spaces it properly... there's a fairly large blind spot directly underneath him if he spaces it wrong... do NOT attempt to air-dodge through it, as he will recover faster than you or he will hit you

G&W Hates gyros. HATES THEM.

Feed him many. Save the big lasers for sniper kills, they are easy since G&W is so light. Predict the key's trajectory and punish (good stuff JCaesar)

Turtles are bad, shield grab the stupid ones, feed the smart ones more gyros

in essence, camp to victory with smart aggression when camping provides that option

65:35 sounds better then 70:30 from my experience. GaW may have speed, power and juggling but ROB has range. ROB has to use gyro, ftilt and dtilt in order to stand a good chance.

GaW usually have a hard time setting up a kill move with his smashes (for me anyways) because they are so slow and lack range that Ftilt has. If GaW goes for speed with Dtilt then you won get hit by a smash. Fair seems to but the move that kills me against GaW just because he can pull it out faster then a smash.

Never approach GaW from below or above and never roll behind else you will get killed. I just try and use the tilts and gyro with the laser once and a while. You get in trouble when GaW gets you high and off stage because he just has so much priority with upB Bair and Uair just messes everything up.

when in close use jab, dtilt or roll away out of smash range. I think the match up wil move close to 60:40 at the match up develops

Don't let G&W's glide toss catch you off gaurd, it's goes pretty far, and can lead into his fast moves like his Jab which sets you up for other things

G&W has the advantage over ROB. That being said, G&W must play cautiously, intelligently, and unpredictably to succeed here. You ROB mains would do well to remember this:

buenob said:

so many people just sit there and eat the turtle, but against a poorly timed turtle it's a free nair for ROB (or any character for that matter)...

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Many of my opponents (and for the life of me, I don't know why) do just this - sit there and take the turtle, and don't punish me for a poorly spaced one either. When you see G&W coming at you, it's likely he's going to use the turtle. So put up your shield and grab him after he's done turtling. ROB has a pretty good grab range if I'm not mistaken, and an overly aggressive or poorly spaced turtle is a free grab. Or, option 2, as buenob said, when you see G&W approaching, use Nair! Meta Knight, cheap **** that he is, can simply use shuttle loop every time G&W approaches with turtle. Absolutely shuts G&W down. You ROB mainers have to do the same - PUNISH G&W's tried and true approach. Many G&W's will not know what else to do.

oh ya, robs fsmash is more disjoint than the turtle, but **** you have to time that one well lol

buenob said:

oh ya, robs fsmash is more disjoint than the turtle, but **** you have to time that one well lol

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Only if you angle it, and it still doesn't go as far as the graphics show

It's not that bad really, it's got nothing on most other good disjointed moves

GaW is tough...
On the stage, Ftilt is your best friend, use it. Laser's potential is seriously diminished here, so its good to know gyro tricks; I know this is the matchup where I learned most of mine. In fact, I find myself killing GaW most often with a gyro drop > nair combo. I would advise you to save your nair, as it is one of the few killing moves that doesnt blatantly put you in GaW's smash-range.

When grabbed, you should mix up your techs (when GaW Dthrows of course), because he can do some nasty things. Personally, I have found that jumping up and DIing sideways protects you from a majority of his follow-ups.

Wtch out for his smashes, personally, I find his dsmash the deadliest, although it clanks with ftilt. Somebody mentioned earlier that theres nothing special about his usmash... I disagree. His usmash hits before the animation frames occur(use his usmash on green greens under the checkpoint to see what I mean) and it hits a bit higher than it looks, which is annoying and can easily kill you if you don't expect it. His fsmash lingers like a bad fart, watch out. It also clanks with ftilt, thankfully.

Like several people said, GaW has one of the best edguards in the game, and he really does have the potential to gimp ROB if you're not careful... If you manage to grab the ledge, take your time in getting back on stage if GaW isn't pressuring you to. You want to be especially careful when you climb back on the level. If GaW tries pressuring, some ledge drops to double jump > nair > regrabs can give you some room to breathe, and can even kill him if he's at a high enough percent.

As for edguarding, hes one of the tougher challenges. He has the option to recover low or high depending on how you try and edgeguard him. If you try and gimp him hen he's recovering low, you risk getting stagespiked by his up b, but if you drop down too early, he can use his up-b early and float back to the stage. On the unlikely event that the GaW does not sweetspot the ledge, be sure to punish him by grabbing him out of his parachute and release him the same way you would Snake from the cypher. It's rare that that opportunity presents itself, but Its a free stock in the event that it does.

Everybody pretty much summed up his aerials, ao Im not going into it... friggin fish bowl...

All in all, I think GaW is a nasty matchup for ROB, and if the GaW knows what he's doing, then its easily 30:70 in GaW's favor.

sometimes when GaW is recovering near the ledge and has to use upB to recover he will miss the auto sweatspot to grab the ledge. I use this for a nice Usmash oppertunity

Jamnt0ast said:

ROB vs GnW.....
Horrible
30/70

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Disagree.
It's about 50/50

i find if you look at it via purely character matchup, GAW really should have the advantage... the problem with GAW is that there is less opportunity for mindgames, since the best strategy is pretty much to have a turtle in their face the whole time and force them to mess up their spacing, then just hit with as much damage as you can

fortunately for us, ROB has many different ways to react to each scenario, so a smart player will mix up his responses and that alone really does even it out... to put it numerically, I would go 45/55... i do think GAW does have that slight advantage, but i'll be ****ed if I lose to one >: )

T0MMY said:

Disagree.
It's about 50/50

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Vids or it didn't happen \:.
I'd say Omega's summary is really accurate/good/etc.

And his ratio. 35/65.

buenob said:

i find if you look at it via purely character matchup, GAW really should have the advantage... the problem with GAW is that there is less opportunity for mindgames, since the best strategy is pretty much to have a turtle in their face the whole time and force them to mess up their spacing, then just hit with as much damage as you can

fortunately for us, ROB has many different ways to react to each scenario, so a smart player will mix up his responses and that alone really does even it out... to put it numerically, I would go 45/55... i do think GAW does have that slight advantage, but i'll be ****ed if I lose to one >: )

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lol, are you saying G&W can't adapt or mix-up?

haha I actually am saying that at least not when compared to rob

haha, okay.
Believe what you want.

But the fact that ROB can't handle simple, constant bair usage, or his projectiles being
neutralized in one way or another, to me is clear-cut proof of his lacking adaptive game.
At least compared to G&W, who can pretty much get around any obstacle.

lol... i said rob could DI for a free nair, he can also shield the whole thing + dsmash and then he can also sh-air dodge to bair if so inclined and depending on how the gaw is approaching

when rob is defensive, gaw has to approach, and his main approach is the bair, which can be dealt with in a number of ways... the problem is, gaw's options when approaching are limited, and in the time it takes to properly space them, rob can react accordingly

i would say the matchup is 50-50... in no way is it easy, but I really think that a smart rob player can beat a smart gaw player...

If I make it to Cata4 this weekend I intend to MM OmegaBlackMage's G&W (and hopefully record it) and I'll post my thoughts on the matchup after that.

As for G&W's bair, at low % just DI up and fair him (assuming you don't shield it), and you should be able to follow it up with at least one more. You should be able to outdamage him every time he bairs when you're at low %. At high % his bair doesn't really matter, since it can't kill, it doesn't lead into anything, and his smashes all kill you at <100% anyway. It's still a good move but it's far from a gamebreaker.

i have not played jc's rob, and would like to : )

i've played noodles, toasty, chibo, fatal etc but no jc

I can't wait for the JCZ vs OBM vids. :o

You guys better upload them fast, I'm gonna be using those as a large focal point in deciding the match-up numbers for this. XD

if i had my passport I'd go to cat4... and partner with niko again... holy can't make it and I was hoping to rep ROB too, but alas I was too lazy years ago and let my ID's all expire

Well we best make it at least 3 out of 5 then

Id say 30/70 or 35/65
An honest opinion though I feel like G&W is harder then MK ;=/
But thats just me

Im going Diddy on G&W now though

Sorry guys it's not happening, I'm bailing on that tourney because it looks like it's gonna have a pretty bad turnout.

^5 SSR

I cp Diddy against GaW too

Curse you JCZ, I wanted to watch that fight.

In other news, I'm 90% confident that this is 60-40 GnW's favor at worst, closer to 55-45 GnW's favor though.

I don't know why, but the fight never clicked for me and it just kind of clicked at a tourney I went to this weekend while playing Hylian. FTilt OoS works to punish perfectly spaced BAirs, DSmash OoS works to punish DAirs. I knew the DAir punish but for some reason I just never tried the FTilt punish..Iunno. I'm ******** I guess. XD

I guess I'll actually start reading through this thread since JCZ bailed on the tourney. > : (

Mah badz Sudai. I'll try to MM some G&Ws at the Chu Biweekly next weekend.

It was you vs OBM's GnW specifically that I wanted to watch, not some random n00b GnWs. (I know the ones you would be fighting probably aren't n00bs. Just joking around.)

I'll try to MM Azen's or Boss's G&W. They don't use G&W very often but they are better than our resident G&W mains.

Here's a little input from me i guess..
I agree that the fight is a 40- 60 matchup in GnW's favor. I have a lot of practice vs GnW mains so I'd like to think I know this fight pretty well. The fight comes down to camping with your beyblade and being as conservative as possible with your lasers. Don't become too predictable, Bucket wins games. If you like to snipe off stage with strong lasers for kills be warned that Good GnW's can bucket break (A strong di with the bucket to stop all momentum), so not only did they stop all of their momentum and saved themselves....but your laser just filled 1/3 of their bucket. On average i use laser about twice per stock vs GaW, thats mostly to keep them off the stage, or to stop edge gurading. ROB's tilts out range the hell out of GaW so I abuse the hell out of dtilt/ftilt especially in the grab release combo...Its surprisingly fun to pseudo-tech chase GaW.
Its hard to be aggressive off the stage against GaW because he has a lot of tricks to get back on to the stage.. Key -> Parachute to quickly get himself to that ledge can be counteracted by either getting to the ledge first or a strong laser on his decent with the key.
GnW loves to juggle RoBs with fish bowl...and due to our blind spot under neath us..there really nothing we can do if they hit us in the right spot... What I've learned to do is Boost out of it with up-b and immediatly either fair + airdodge or bair to get back to the ground as soon as possible.
Overall its a really tough fight for RoB...This is matchup your gonna want to camp in

my doubles partner // the guy I play the most is a GnW main, and we both have been spending a whole bunch of time playing other characters lately, so we decided to have some good o'le rob/GnW matches, and I gotta say, 100% 55-60 / 40-45 matchup...

i guess it's my style, but I find that a campy rob completely loses to gnw... maybe it's because I play the same people over and over so they know my style, but the bucket is too good and the gnw can slowly advance and just pressure you off the ledge... I know a lot of robs are extremely comfortable out there, but gnw has so many options against you once you're on the ledge that it's incredibly difficult to consider yourself better off on the ledge than on the level, so he's forced you into a worse overall position, and all you got out of it was a fully charged top (which in itself limits your options)...

fortunately for us, the spacing for the turtle leaves gnw open to a variety of robs attacks (ftilt as sudai pointed out for the well spaced ones, more options if they mess up) so all of a sudden the GnW has to use some different approaches, and I said it before, GnW definitely has less "mindgames" opportunities FROM A NEUTRAL POSITION... once gnw is on the offensive, rob is in a pile o' trouble, so the key in this matchup is definitely to play conservatively, but I wouldn't call it "camping"

overall, I'd say play smart... to me, there's no "tricks" that work on GnW that wouldn't apply to every character (unlike say lucas vs. GnW, where lucas has to watch out for a bucket gimp)... if you know the matchup and understand GnW (as sudai said, it only 'clicked' for him once he figured out when and where he could punish) it's going to be a close fight because GnW doesn't have any "tricks" that work specifically for ROB... pure mindgames matchup, but due to the fact that GnW can 'bail' from a situation and semi-reset easily (up-b to get away), I'd give the advantage to him