Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO

The Kirby-MK match-up is easily 55-45 or 60-40.

Kirby section is up; waiting for input.

Staco said:

mk vs. kirby
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MqavPwRTB4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNe7NOnufps

The matchup isnt the worst thing for kirby. An kirby can has some nados. xD

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That was horrible gameplay on ChuDat's part, he didn't know how to play the matchup at all. I'll try to get to play MogX so I can record it. He's the best Kirby player in WC. I'm not gonna expand and say EC too just yet, because the matches from those vids did happen some months ago.

But ChuDat knows the MU in the match against Inui.

Sounds like 55/45 MK for me:

InfernoOmni said:

Asdioh, assuming you main Kirby:

You have a good match-up against MK. It's funny because Kirby is also a character that doesn't have many weaknesses: he's small, hard to hit, has a quick grab with crazy grab range, one of the best f-smashes in the game, a b-air that goes through almost all of MK's moves, a nice 0% - 35%+ combo, great recovery, and very useful tilts.

Here's what you do.
1.) Perfect the timing for nailing f-smashes or grabs on MK's that air dodge toward the ground from the air. The only thing MK can do against Kirby when he's above him is spaced d-airs; besides that, he's completely vulnerable. When an MK is trying to attack from above, just shield and respond with an up-tilt or a quick b-air.

2.) Once MK's stop trying to attack from above, they'll realize they have a better chance coming at you face to face. However, since MK is always in the air (or can be knocked in the air), it's good for you always position yourself under MK by running under him and trying to stay under him. The reason for this is because when MK -really- wants to land to get his ground game going, the most habitual tactic is to air dodge to the ground. As said before well-timed f-smashes and grabs will get you either an early kill, or a grab that will put MK back into the air to repeat the process.

3.) Speaking of grabs, always f-throw at 0%. At low %'s, do d-throw. If the MK doesn't DI correctly, you CAN combo this into an aerial.

4.) Space your b-airs. It's almost IMPOSSIBLE for a MK to break Kirby's WOP since he can immediately follow up his b-air with an up-tilt. If you space correctly and patiently, most MK's will switch to a style where they come dash in range and shield in order to make you whiff. If you can SEE this play style developing, be a step ahead and go in for a dash grab.

5.) Once they feel uncomfortable with the ground/shield game, MK's will then attempt to space their f-airs either defensively or offensively. If it's defensively, it's a WOP battle, but if its offensively... hooray! Your b-air goes through his f-air each time if you space it correctly.

6.) Edgeguard MK. Again, your b-air is awesome. It goes through his glide attack. If he tries to smarten up and tries to use tornado, have a f-smash prepped because guess what...? F-smash also goes through tornado. This is how you can get so many kills against MK because most of them won't be DI'ing correctly and/or expecting it.

Asidioh, I could go ON and ON and ON about this match-up. The most important thing I can tell you is that you're not losing to MK just because MK is a better character. You're mainly losing to MK because you're not thinking ahead enough steps in the future. Great players find patterns and habits before the end of the first stock. If you get better at this (mindgames), it will make your matches against MK infinitely easier. Guaranteed.

*To Everyone Else*
If I wanted to beat MK's without using MK, I would choose between Snake, Diddy, Olimar, Kirby, and Wario. I would also try to use MK ALOT so I could understand his pros and cons a little better.

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Staco said:

mk vs. kirby
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MqavPwRTB4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNe7NOnufps

The matchup isnt the worst thing for kirby. An kirby can has some nados. xD

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That first video was uploaded back in August. Be sure to check the upload date before posting up a link to a match vid.

Exactly. One's very old, the other is just less old.

I think Kirby is a decent character with not enough good players to rep him appropriately.

TKD said:

Exactly. One's very old, the other is just less old.

OK. Best MK player in Mexico vs the best Kirby player in Mexico, 2/3 matches. I'm gonna start uploading the matches tomorrow and post them up here =)

I think Kirby is a decent character with not enough good players to rep him appropriately.

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High tier > decent IMO. That said, I think he should move up two spots on tomorrow's tier list.

MogX (Kirby) vs TKD (Meta Knight)

Best Kirby and MK in our region in Mexico (and west coast also, acc. to the champion) =D
And I hope they're good examples of the matchup.

Round 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2OYvuKGiwE
Round 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF_LzLt180U
Round 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNLZxkX0p_o

So does anyone have any "good" techniques against camping Snakes?

You can camp too!! You have 5 jumps to wait out for opportunities and poke with nado and dairs.

Dashgrabs can surprise your opponent (if he has no nades about to blow up) and give you chances for some edgeguarding to potentially allow doing lots of damage or even a KO if they mess up or you predict their recovery well.

If you won't blow up by doing it, you can poke at him with your ftilt and dtilt, which have more range than his moves. His utilt can hit you during your dtilt, but your ftilt is always safe anyway.

The moments you are more in control of the match, are the ones when your opponent is above you, trying to reach the ground. You can try your best to hit or grab them.

I watched the first video (then my internet started screwing up) and I must say you're both really good.
it's a really good match-up.

i noticed that, although you did good at keeping him from approaching, every little chance he got he exploited, and he took advantage of the few more jumps kirby has by going over you and coming from above.
Excellent match.

I can't wait until this weekend when everyone sees Ally face all the top MKs in the nation and see clearly that the matchup is in Snake's favor, and there isn't much MK could do about it.

Seriously, it's retarted. Just wait and see

It'd be funny if he loses to other people before facing any MK players.

PS: I think D3, R.O.B., Donkey and TL are like 5 points easier than stated. I also think Snake, Wario and maybe G&W are actually like 5 points harder. Just my opinion. But seriously, don't MK players state DK's an easy matchup often enough?

G&W for example.

Someone stated UpB always beats his bair which is true, which is why G&W shouldn't bair while falling from a full hop. Maybe shuttle loop beats bair, but:
- Low damage output gets even lower with decay
- If the G&W player airdodged, he can punish MK's forced glide from their shuttle loop attempt.
As for fsmash, it only works if the opponent does TWO things: approaches, and spaces incorrectly.

Mach tornado beats a lot of G&W's moves, but he can just let you hit him and upB which works like half the time (shielding+upB works also probably), and lifts you up high enough for a free punish. If MT hits G&W after getting upB'd, G&W ends up in a lower altitude than the MK player to allow even smash attacks as punishment to the freefalling MK. Most commonly a fair which KO's at high % with platforms, without them, an fsmash or even upsmash which can KO at mid-high %. I'm not saying that being able to punish Mach Tornado gives G&W an advantage, because he CAN'T PUNISH IT IF YOU DON'T DO IT. But if you're not performing it, then it's not an advantage for MK either. If the opponent doesn't know how to punish something, you should abuse it, though. All in all, MT doesn't count for any of the 2 characters in my opinion.

Bair can outrange the rest of MK's moves, and do things like hit from above ftilt, even if shorthopped. Comparing options vs options, it is hard. MK has safer and more accurate KO methods, but G&W can KO early. Also, MK's special moves are punishable as I stated.

What I do, is just block and punish, pressure when I know MK's quicker moves can get to my opponent sooner than he can, and KO with my safer moves.

It's a pretty hard matchup. It feels even too. You can ask Leepuff or DieSuperFly about this, since they're a top G&W and a top MK (who now plays Snake vs G&W's) player respectively, which have faced each other more than once. I have also faced Leepuff and I must say we go even. So he probably destroys most MK players (because of him being a better player than most). He told me he's very confident about the matchup.

EDIT: So it may look like one has the options to counter everything the other can do, but the other can counter those options as well probably...next time I play I'll know for sure.

Affinity, you can add to your guide with the info in mine. I suggest you do that because I have quite a few tricks for the toughest matchups.

Thanks.

Anth0ny said:

I can't wait until this weekend when everyone sees Ally face all the top MKs in the nation and see clearly that the matchup is in Snake's favor, and there isn't much MK could do about it.

Seriously, it's retarted. Just wait and see

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Is he officially going? He'll have to get through the amateur brackets first. If he and M2K play and it isn't recorded, I'll punt a baby.

Deoxys said:

Is he officially going? He'll have to get through the amateur brackets first. If he and M2K play and it isn't recorded, I'll punt a baby.

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M2K probably won't want it recorded.

-Affinity- said:

M2K probably won't want it recorded.

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Yeah, you're right. If it's the finals or semifinals will he even have a choice?

I'll prepare a baby.

So we're discussing Kirby at the moment ?

Kirby can be a really hard match up, if the kirby knows how to play it.
Let's face it Kirby has good ground game, good air game, good edgeguard very, etc.

Kirbys bair has insane priority and can go through our aerials if they time it correct, fsmash is ridiculous good and can hit through tornado.

So basically watch out for:
- Bair
- Fsmash
- Grabs

While recovering you should know that kirby can edgeguard your upB with bair and your nado with fsmash, so side b and sweetspot the edge would be the safest thing to do, but remember to switch up because they can always punish you if they know what you are doing.

iirc mks ftilt goes through kirbys bair if you time it correct (3rd hit?), we also have more range so we should be safe on the ground. If MK is in the air you should space your fairs extremely well, because good kirbys will space their bairs just as well.
Generally i would suggest playing a good ground game is safer in this matchup.

just my 2 cents

The kirby matchup can be a little difficult, but IMO its not too hard if you know what to look out for. SH f-airs can be beaten out by a rising or a ff kirby b-air, so use it to punish missed air attack. Generally, ground approaching is usually more effective. Tilts are great for poking at kiby, and grounded shuttle loop (due to its invunerabillity frames) shuts down kirbys b-air approach. Also at maximum inhale range shuttle loop will hit as well.

Its not good to use grounded tornado as it is destroyed by powerful kirby f-smash (use only at close range or near the ground in the air), and if he uses it MT on you a f-air or d-air will shut that up fairily painlessly. Also his b-air can poke a approaching (only) tornado as well if it hits at a certiaen point close to the top.

Watch when edge guarding so you dont run into a hammer or a back air, and I would say try to land d-airs and n-airs, because f-air and u-air can knock kirby up higher making it easier for him to recover.

When he is edgeguarding you his d-air can beat out SL if it is spaced correctly and stone can as well if he predicts SL so if you can use your jumps to recover or if he chases you in the air you can get above him and tornado or drill directly back on to the stage.

If he grabs you and f-throws, DI towards the upper left corner to avoid followups or if he down throws, if you jump at the right time meta will fly up, thus avoiding an up-tilt combo.

Its not good to attack a grounded kirby from above with d-air because he can shield it and grab you if your close to the ground, or shield and roll away if your out of grab range. but if kirby is in the air then get above and d-air assault, just watch out because if you miss he can hit you with an u-air before you can attack again.

In this match try to save you d-smash if possible. It will be key to be able to KO kirby fairily early as normally he can live 10-20% more than meta can. Kirby f-smash will generally kill once you are in triple digits.

Overall its not too hard but can be intense and fun. I would say it is 55-45 in meta's favor.

Meta Knight vs Kirby.

Kirby has a couple things going for him.
- Multiple jumps
- Decent range on bair
- Decent grab range
- Good damage output

Keeping Kirby from approaching should be the main idea. If a Kirby player wants to approach, he shouldn't be able to win. Kirby's main form of approach is dashing into a shield, which is countered very well by a dash grab. It's also rendered ineffective by tippered fairs, retreating or otherwise.

Don't let approaching work for your opponent.
Spacing fairs and dtilts is a great way to handle most match-ups. However, be aware that Kirby can actually shield-grab a dtilt if he's able to get close enough, and any of his short-hop approaches can make contact while going above your dtilt (the same probably goes for the rest of the dtilt'ing into ftilt into dtilt variations). It's a good spacing tool as always, so you should still try to use it, only not while your opponent may get into the air.

Aerial opponent
Remember shielding is safe on aerial opponents, since they cannot grab you, only air-dodge, perform aerials, or in Kirby's case, possibly stay in the air. Power-shielding the moment an attack can possibly hit you allows safe, easier, and less predictable punishment than regular shielding. If they didn't strike the moment you expected them to, you can keep moving anyway. This is very effective since you can punish an air-dodge into you with the use of a nair, one onto the ground next to you by grabbing them, or hold your position if they keep jumping. Shy Kirby players may mispace their bairs so they don't actually reach you even if you don't move, these errors in spacing are easily punished by a quick ftilt.

You can make use of the amazingly potent tool in Meta Knight's grounded Shuttle Loop for very easy hits on air-jump camping opponents. It's better to perform this if you have a platform above you, to make it very hard to punish, thanks to quick glide cancellings. Remember however, that it only does around 9% damage from the start, and it keeps getting worse. Possible punishment is not worth spamming it, as each of Kirby's most used moves do more damage than the Shuttle Loop, and it's as easy for him to punish as performing an air-dodge, one more jump to bair you out of your glide, or dair'ing into you from directly above. Shuttle Loop works best performed less often, SPECIALLY considering that you can KO with it from around 130% if you keep it fresh, and the aerial one can get weak enough not to allow any surprise aerial Shuttle Loop KO's.

To counter Kirby's potent air-jump camping game, which seems to be the best way to play Kirby, possibly in most, if not all of that character's match-ups, a Meta Knight player can keep up a good ground game, limited to mostly short-hops, baiting and taking advantage of each time the Kirby opponent touches the ground.

This is not the only option, however. One can also perform full hop fairs as an approach, and from there continue performing dairs and fairs, airjumped or not, to fight the opponent in an air-jump approach similar to his air-jump camping tactics.

Aerial Meta Knight.
Camping aerials is a good idea to avoid Kirby's options to land hits, aerial or otherwise. Kirby can effectively uair or bair you out of the air from below you, you can keep this in mind and avoid it, you can also fast-fall an airdodge through the opponent if they jump after you. Kirby players will sometimes shield in the place they think you will land, to possibly punish a falling aerial by shield-grabbing you (or shielding and bair'ing, which is always an option for the opponent). This is easily baited by performing one extra jump right before touching the ground. If they miss a grab, you can then fall on them with a dair to safely regain your position.

Recovery.
Drill rush is your safest option. It out-prioritizes most of Kirby's moves, including all of the ones which pose a threat. I don't know about his hammer, but I haven't witnessed any Kirby player perform it on drill rush yet, and I don't think it's likely for it to land, due to its slow start-up and short range. Be careful to glide back on-stage. Your opponent's most reliable option against your glide is bair. If a Kirby opponent jumps offstage towards you, you should expect this. The opponent can also down-B, which is easy to see coming and calls for the cancelling of your glide. If your opponent tries to edge-guard in an unsafe way and is directly above you, you can perform a Shuttle Loop in hopes of it sending the opponent backwards and away from the stage, for a quick way to put the momentum of the match on your side.

Once you hang on the edge, be wary of attacking your opponent directly with an aerial as they can bair or shieldgrab. Be also wary of performing Mach Tornado in hopes of going back on-stage, as your opponent can bair the top of the move to land a safe hit on you, or perform a forward smash, which out-prioritizes the Mach Tornado. It is still a safe move, specially if performed from above the range of forward smash, or the opposing character altogether, so they can't punish it.

By the way, Mach Tornado isn't a great tool during the on-stage fight, due to Kirby's tendency to quickly pop out of it, his ability to bair you out of it (they can also shield it, as always), and the fact that the low damage output on a short MT isn't bigger than that of what the Kirby can land on you. It's good to perform it if you feel confident that you'll trap your opponent in it during the entire move, or if you know it will hit, since it's relatively safe due to Kirby's unability to punish (consistantly) after popping up, since his falling speed isn't quick.

Edge-guarding.
You can charge a forward smash against Kirby's up-B, and release it when he's in the falling part of it. It's safe to perform this, and it works if the rising part of Kirby's up-B doesn't make contact with you. You also have the option to edge-hog the up-B, so the opponent is forced to land on-stage (unless they don't, and they lose a stock), so you can easily ledge-hop a nair from there, or a fair in the unlikely case of nair not being able to reach the opponent.

Besides that, your opponent will over-B to head towards the stage without losing altitude, and air-dodge or perform aerials on your edge-guard attempts. You can bait air-dodges and land aerials afterwards, it's also good to try performing off-stage fairs, dairs, and uairs, air-jumped or fast-falled. Fast-falling nairs from above may also work, which isn't as effective against Kirby as it is against other characters due to him still being likely to recover, but it's still easy to land and an option you can consider. You can mix a Shuttle Loop in now and then, in hopes it connects, making recovery a chore for your opponent.

KO-ing.
I've found keeping dsmash fresh to KO at above 110%, not to be as effective in the Kirby match-up as in others. It seems that dsmash is harder to land on Kirby than on other characters, due to your opponent being mostly either in the air, or on the ground shielding. It's still good to keep it as an option, but if you like to perform dsmash even if it doesn't KO, go ahead (I like ftilt better, because of the better range, less punishability, and similar damage output though).

The absolute safest KO move in most matchups is a grounded Shuttle Loop. It's effective from around 130% on light/mid-weight characters, and Kirby is fortunately one of them. If it's fresh, you know what to do. If they DI and it doesn't KO, there's no problem. If they don't DI next time you hit, it's still a KO. A move keeps getting weaker each time you land it, but landing one move repeatedly will result in similar knock-back, due to the opponent having more damage each time.

Remember that trying to perform long edgeguards can allow you to land extra damage to make it easy to KO. If you can land a forward smash onto Kirby's falling animation during his up-B at high percentages, more power to you. Another option is nair at very high %, specially if fresh.

Kirby's Swallow.
...Is useless. Seriously, when Kirby performs Mach Tornado, only one third of his hits actually have hit-stun, the rest don't. So you can air-dodge, or actually hit him, even while inside the Mach Tornado. It even has a much smaller range than Meta Knight's Mach Tornado. Fair, ftilt, up-B...anything that has more range hits him out of it (since Meta Knight's moves don't clash and hit the opponent directly), and you can make him lose the ability easily, because a lot of Meta Knight's moves have multiple hits (not that you should worry about him losing the ability or not, since it's not all that useful).

About Kirby-ciding, it's easily avoidable if you maintain proper spacing throughout the match, and its range is not so good as to catch you during your aerials or specials (except Dimensional Cape, of course).

That's all of it from me.
I wouldn't like to rate exact odds for this match-up. I know it's one of the losable ones, but it's even at worst. Happy Hunting!

Awesome summary TKD. Thank you.

I'd like you to copy and paste the summary again if you can, Affinity. I editted the text until I was sure the spelling's all correct and each sentence is easy to understand. (plus I added the fact that Kirby has an uair lulz)

Thanks, great summary.
But I went to the kirby board, to see what they thought about the matchup, and I've read more than a few time that the ftilt was one of the (if not the) most annoying moves we have against kirby: for exemple: (from what I've read) if we DI out well of their jab (the infinite punch one), we can land a safe ftilt before they end their jab.
We can stop their dash attack (since hitbox and hurtbox are the same) with our tilts.
Their fsmash has longer range, but, here again, we can, if timed correctly, interrupt it with ftilt...
So, according to what I've read, we can erase almost all of their grounded approaches with it.
(so, if ftilt works, dtilt should, but since ftilt deals more, and is easier to time, why would we use dtilt? dtilt may be useful for grabs, though).
Please, if anybody can check if what I said is correct, then do, it might be useful.
(oh, and maybe he can shieldgrab the dtilt, but remember that you move forward while using it, but you won't if you use the ftilt, that might be why it's this move that they talk about most).

Approaching from the ground isn't very good to do as Kirby, specially against Meta Knight. And ftilt isn't full-proof. You can get hit by aerials out of it, and if they shield it, they can get away, or shieldgrab if they're close enough. Plus, the Kirby opponent I mostly play, DI's out of the 3rd hit like half the time. It's not good enough to be all you have to do, and Kirby players that approach or stay on the ground are most likely easy to beat anyway.

dj_Iskascribble said:

Its not good to attack a grounded kirby from above with d-air because he can shield it and grab you if your close to the ground spacing is horrendous , or shield and roll away if your out of grab range. but if kirby is in the air then get above and d-air assault, just watch out because if you miss he can hit you with an u-air before you can attack again.

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fix'd

You can also jump first and then do a dair, you should be safe if you space it correctly.

@TKD: first i thought your text was mostly general knowledge (like that shield approach stuff) but it keeps getting better with every line, eventhough it's not that much new information Good summary.

Babar-Thorbald said:

[...]
for exemple: (from what I've read) if we DI out well of their jab (the infinite punch one), we can land a safe ftilt before they end their jab.
We can stop their dash attack (since hitbox and hurtbox are the same) with our tilts.
Their fsmash has longer range, but, here again, we can, if timed correctly, interrupt it with ftilt...
So, according to what I've read, we can erase almost all of their grounded approaches with it.
(so, if ftilt works, dtilt should, but since ftilt deals more, and is easier to time, why would we use dtilt? dtilt may be useful for grabs, though).

[...]

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Who would use the infinite jab on purpose anyway ?
Oh and you can interrupt almost everything with ftilt if you time it correctly.

The problem with using dair is that kirbys will be mostly in the air, so low chance for dair to hit you can dair them if they are on the ground ofc and its still good, but yeah they are mostly in the air

Lol, I just posted what I've read, please don't give me the credit for that^^.
And thanks for your (quick) answers.

It's just that people who play other characters spend more time complaining than playing around their flaws. The Mario boards probably still haven't realized that Mario may be Snake's worst match-up and have him as 30/70 Snake.

And I hope the G&W boards don't still think they can't do anything if MK only fsmashes and upB's, which is ridiculous. UpB's punishable and you have to mispace for fsmash to work. And when they charge a smash and you're in the edge you can just nair them from below if they're too close, or ledge-jump if they're a bit further.

Maybe most Meta Knight players are just better haha.

.Tero said:

fix'd

You can also jump first and then do a dair, you should be safe if you space it correctly.

@TKD: first i thought your text was mostly general knowledge (like that shield approach stuff) but it keeps getting better with every line, eventhough it's not that much new information Good summary.



Who would use the infinite jab on purpose anyway ?
Oh and you can interrupt almost everything with ftilt if you time it correctly.

The problem with using dair is that kirbys will be mostly in the air, so low chance for dair to hit you can dair them if they are on the ground ofc and its still good, but yeah they are mostly in the air

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I meant that as directly above kirby from the air, but I can see how that was misconstrued.

TKD said:

Maybe most Meta Knight players are just better haha.

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You might be right... More top mk players definitely means that the gameplay will evolve in a better way for mk than the others... That helps him to keep his ss rank;
maybe (probably) he would be in the same tier as falco/snake if there were as many top snake/falco players than mk... Don't you think so?

I just want to say that I have a LOT of experience in this matchup (Iska and I have probably done it over 100 times in the last week), and while pretty much everything said here is true, you guys are leaving a few things out:
-Yeah, we can shieldgrab a Dtilt if we're close, but why would we, considering a well spaced Fsmash beats it and a badly spaced one trades hits.
-A shielded Dsmash is a free grab for Kirby, so don't get predictable with it. It works best as a surprise move (usually for the KO.).
-be warry of Kirby's ground game. Our air game is better, but because of it surprise ground attacks (ftilt, DA, Dtilt) tend to occasionally hit. Don't get caught offguard because you were expecting a Bair or something.
-Copied from one of my previous posts:

fromundaman said:

Dair beats out SL as long as you position yourself so that the front of the arc doesn't touch you. If it does, then you trade hits (though you don't go flying very far), which can be useful A) offstage: It frustrates your opponent and causes them to expend more jumps. No, you aren't going to gimp MK, and that's not what I'm getting at, but it is easier to hit a recovering MK with fewer jumps than one who's not worried about falling offastage. B) On BF, Lylat, or any other stage where the Dair will spike them into a platform and you can attempt to follow up with one of your faster moves (I usually do Bair or FFed Nair>something).

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-Be careful about spamming SL... a shielded SL isn't too hard to punish.
-Our grabs can wreck MK if the player doesn't know how to handle them. Yeah, we can't Gonzo you, but Dthrow chains are incredibly effective. Under 40%, Dthrow>Utilt can only be escaped by a perfectly timed jump/footstool jump thingy that sends you really ****ing high (what iskascribble was talking about). If you try to Dair after the Utilt, you will make me happy, as I will shieldgrab you and do it again. Do that twice and MK goes from 0 to 40. After that, our Dthrow still does great damage and puts you in a bad position.

Kirby's Swallow.
...Is useless. Seriously, when Kirby performs Mach Tornado, only one third of his hits actually have hit-stun, the rest don't. So you can air-dodge, or actually hit him, even while inside the Mach Tornado. It even has a much smaller range than Meta Knight's Mach Tornado. Fair, ftilt, up-B...anything that has more range hits him out of it (since Meta Knight's moves don't clash and hit the opponent directly), and you can make him lose the ability easily, because a lot of Meta Knight's moves have multiple hits (not that you should worry about him losing the ability or not, since it's not all that useful).

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See, I don't understand why so many Kirby mains can't understand this... While inhale is situational, it can hit, and at worst, it's still better than a move that's going to deal 2-3% before you break out and hit me with a Dair/Fair (I don't know what percent that is, but it's definitely higher than what Kirby-nado does...). If Kirby DOES take that, I'd let him keep it; he's the one losing out...

Thanks fromundaman, a few things more to add, then.

No offense to any of you, but you should make this thread more well known. MUCH more well known. There are something like 10 MK's at my clan, and I can beat them all consistently. I'm not dissing you guys, I'm dissing a lot of MK's (the n00bs). They don't know that they can escape my whorenado, they almost never use shuttle loop... *sigh*.

As such, I can't really contribute much to this discussion.

Babar-Thorbald said:

So, according to what I've read, we can erase almost all of their grounded approaches with it.
(so, if ftilt works, dtilt should, but since ftilt deals more, and is easier to time, why would we use dtilt? dtilt may be useful for grabs, though).

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You basically answered your own question, but also you can make the dtilt a Mach Ftilt if they aren't knocked back too far.

Deoxys said:

You basically answered your own question, but also you can make the dtilt a Mach Ftilt if they aren't knocked back too far.

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I <3 mach f-tilt

We need to add a little disclaimer under the Snake matchup.

NOTE: Everything above is void when facing Ally's Snake. Good ****ing luck.

I'd contribute to the Kirby matchup...but you guys are already done

Uhh...i've killed a MK at the side of FD at 60 with Fsmash, as well as 80ish off the top with Usmash
One of the only matchups where Kirby has the straight-up killpower advantage

Kirby's pros:
- Fair and bair go through MK's fair and tilts, uair through dair sort of
- Decent grab game
Cons:
- Moves may beat MK's but they're slower and easy to shield and punish
- Exploitable recovery
- Nothing beats MK's uair juggle from above

So Kirby's on even-ish ground while the match is neutral, but he has a harder time regaining control to keep fighting. The fact he "can" KO earlier doesn't fix that issue in my opinion. It doesn't count if your opponents let you hit them with charged smashes, or if they don't know DI or momentum reduction, by the way.

Snake's a more extreme character. He's actually good while Meta Knight's not in control, and has a good damage output, but he's absolutely HORRIBLE at regaining control of the match (or touching the ground again, however you want to call it).

I like playing Snake vs MK, Kirby's similar but less extreme, I don't like it so much.

Anth0ny said:

We need to add a little disclaimer under the Snake matchup.

NOTE: Everything above is void when facing Ally's Snake. Good ****ing luck.

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The matchup thingies should ultimately represent top level from both players, so it shouldn't matter who it is. If something can't work on someone, it should be noted.

TKD said:

- Nothing beats MK's uair juggle from above

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Why not Stone? You mean during the juggle to escape it? Or do you just mean that they will be able to dodge the Stone?

TKD said:

Snake's a more extreme character. He's actually good while Meta Knight's not in control, and has a good damage output, but he's absolutely HORRIBLE at regaining control of the match (or touching the ground again, however you want to call it).

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I feel like "absolutely HORRIBLE" is quite an exaggeration. Getting back on-stage is really only terrible for Snake when he's not particularly high up and is approached in a way that he can't use to spike.

TKD said:

The matchup thingies should ultimately represent top level from both players, so it shouldn't matter who it is. If something can't work on someone, it should be noted.

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Beat me to it.

Do you mind if I ask who you are covering after Kirby?

I have the most problems against Olimar, Lucario and Pikachu... I can destroy most other characters... any help other than what is posted guys?