R.O.B. Match-Up Discussion Week #12: Lase-errrr...Falco

Sudai · Jan 28, 2009

Go!

GwJ · Jan 28, 2009

SHDL > ROB's laser.

Overall, I'd put it at ROB's advantage, BUT ONLY because he can be gimped easily. We've gone over this countless times and it's 1 AM so I'll just put out my ratio: 55:45 ROB

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Jan 28, 2009

Falco out camps ROB for sure. Reflector and a more spamable projectile.

ROB edgeguards falco a whole lot better than we can edgeguard you. Once we go off stage getting back will be a pain.

Killing. Both have problems killing lol. I've done a few matches that last way too long. Falco, I would say has the eaiser time killing because smashes have more knockback than ROBs and we got a laser > Upsmash combo that is reliable killing move.

Even though we will probably be forcing the approach with lasers and such close combat with ROB is a pain espically trying to get a kill. Probably about equal range and priority on jabs, tilts and smashes from both sides, but ROBs come out a faster I think coughdsmashcough.

Looking at everything I agree with the idea of the match being really close. Not sure who has the advantage really, just know it is really close to 50:50. Although, I am leaning towards ROB because all he has to do is survive us trying to get a kill and he just gimps and edgeguards us to death.

Nintendevil · Jan 28, 2009

Falco CAN outcamp ROB, but ROB (IMO) is much better at approaching thatn Falco anyways. Besides. When You get up close to him Falco will only Grab, Usmash, or dash attack. All of which are predictable. Also If Falco must approach, he is weak outside of his lasers.

pretty close to 50-50 but I think ROB has it, again, for offstage purposes.

Mr.E · Jan 28, 2009

I've argued this match to death enough that I really don't care to make a long-*** post about it this time... in the actually important thread I should be writing a long-*** post more than anywhere else.

In short, Blaster is the only thing Falco has on ROB. (Well, and the Reflector making projectile camping him equally impossible.) Really. Falco's DThrow shenanigans hardly work at all on ROB, he can only be re-grabbed once at 0% and doesn't get comboed by DAir or Dash-USmash past ~40%. Falco doesn't take advantage of ROB's blind spot particularly well, as he falls too fast with too little lateral mobility in the air. Falco is generally going to die sooner because he's a joke to edgeguard. So what the hell DOES Falco do to ROB? He camps the **** out of him with the Blaster and plays run-away pansy with Phantasm. And it works really **** well, even on relatively small stages like Battlefield. Luckily, it doesn't take many successful approaches for ROB to even the odds.

That said, it's a heavily stage-dependent match-up but I think ROB has the advantages on way more stages, putting ROB at an overall slight advantage. Falco can't laser camp on Luigi's... or Rainbow Cruise, Norfair, Castle Siege, Yoshi's, Orpheon, and so on. Then there's Lylat Cruise, which screws with his already piss-poor recovery plus his laser spam if he's on the high side of the stage. ROB is going to win most of those matches. Most of the other stages are small-ish, neutral sites; Falco really only gets an advantage on two or three stages max (FD, Picto, some argue JJ).

Hyo · Jan 28, 2009

Like stated several times, ROB is the camper.

Falco plays to camp the camper.

Although Falco's CG is marginally (ineffective) effective against ROB, it doesn't seem very noted that Falco has a very effective dair on ROB.

I know, dair is not that great for spiking against ROB (virtually un-spikeable), but you can use it to rack a lot of damage just by using it in rapid succession. This is particularly effective because ROB has such a huge body. It's so easy to connect with lasers, so easy to connect with kill moves and aerials, and ROB can only Dsmash us and flee.

Also, since the dair pops ROB right up, after a certain percentage, we can use our uair. Uair is situational, and only useful against characters with poor options when above an opponent.
Case in point, ROB.

Again, because ROB is so large, lasers>DACUS works quite well, as both will connect if ROB leaves the ground for even a second.

ROB has the offstage. Firebird.

In the end though, I would call it close, and stage dependent.
Luigi's Mansion isn't as bad for Falco as once thought. Due to the nature of the pillars, Falco can pull off easily a LL. This is particularly effective on ROB.
some stages it can go as far as 6-4 Falco (BF, FD, JJ)
and some the other way 6-4 ROB (Lylat, Norfair)

So why not call it even?

GwJ · Jan 28, 2009

While I agree on a 50-50 matchup, I just want to ROB doesn't need to Dsmash and flee. He does have other other options like Ftilt or Dtilt into a grab or Fair. He can bait you out of a shine occasionally, and I'm pretty sure he can do a few others as well.

JCaesar · Jan 28, 2009

Falco outcamps ROB, plain and simple. That doesn't mean you shouldn't shoot at him when you're out of range though. Jump and gyro or laser so it lands right on his head and is hard to reflect. You need to be approaching Falco all the time unfortunately. Approach high if you can, but if you can't, jump and airdodge a lot to get through his lasers. Don't roll, it doesn't work. You can also try to walk through and powershield everything but I find this really difficult, and he can easily punish you when you get close since there's absolutely no landing lag for his lasers.

If Falco plays aggressive, this matchup is cake. But smart Falcos will be extremely campy and gay. You will NEED gimps, because you will have so few opportunities to even touch Falco. Unfortunately, if the Falco has good DI and is recovering from above the stage, he can start his side-B at any time and you won't have time to react with a bair. You either have to predict it and hope he runs into it, or grab the ledge and try to punish the ending lag (which is minimal). Sure, if the Falco player screws up and runs into your bair, he's toast, but his side-B is so fast that he should be able to avoid it pretty easily. Oh, and if he screwed up his DI and is recovering from low, a simple edgehog should take care of him.

Falco has a very hard time killing ROB (usmash doesn't kill until 130+ and fsmash is hard to sweetspot and garbage without it, and ROB should never get spiked), but he's so hard to approach in the first place that it doesn't matter so much. His jab alone can stop most approaches dead and is oh-so-annoying.

Stages are very important in this matchup. In my experience, Falco wins on FD and BF, and ROB wins on SV and YI. ROB also wins on most counterpicks. You absolutely need to ban FD in this matchup.

As much as I hate this matchup and want to say it's in Falco's favor, I know realistically it's probably even or slightly in ROB's favor. Especially if you're willing to plank the ledge once you're up.

GwJ · Jan 28, 2009

Could you explain to me what planking is? I've heard it, but I'm not sure exactly what it is.

JCaesar · Jan 28, 2009

Hanging the ledge in order to make it very difficult to approach, and running the time out in the process. Running away in a loop on a stage like Luigi's Mansion could also be considered planking.

CY · Jan 28, 2009

i've played sudai, i think the match up is around even.

i can out camp the **** out of rob, while also reflecting his projectiles. but, ROB can gimp us pretty easily. i don't really feel like getting into it real deep, but i don't find ROB that hard of a match up if i'm on a good neutral stage like FD of 'ville.

err, after reading all the posts, looks like everything was pretty much covered already lol.

Hyo · Jan 28, 2009

To be honest, Falco is one of the most gimpable characters, well, ever.
That doesn't mean that he has a disadvantage against a character that has an easy time gimping (i.e. Meta Knight.) What I'm saying is that despite his gimpability, ROB just doesn't have an edge. If Falco plays defensive (like he should) then I can't see him getting killed.

Falco should even have to get smacked off the stage, if he's doing it right.

Jamnt0ast · Jan 28, 2009

Falco is gay as hell, but easy to gimp

Mr.E · Jan 28, 2009

JCaesar007 said:
Unfortunately, if the Falco has good DI and is recovering from above the stage, he can start his side-B at any time and you won't have time to react with a bair. You either have to predict it and hope he runs into it, or grab the ledge and try to punish the ending lag (which is minimal).

You play high and force him to the ledge. If he comes in even higher, to ensure he makes it back on-stage, he'll have landing lag and you just throw him back off. If he goes for the ledge, you play like Marth does against ROB and try to keep him there. Falco has absolutely no ledge game to speak of, you just have to stand back far enough to punish a ledgehopped Phantasm and he's sunk.

See.Why. said:
good neutral stage like FD

FD is about as neutral as Skyworld.

TheTantalus · Jan 28, 2009

JCaesar007 said:
Hanging the ledge in order to make it very difficult to approach, and running the time out in the process. Running away in a loop on a stage like Luigi's Mansion could also be considered planking.

I guess I'm just not good at Planking

I got the lead at FD on Plank's falco, but I couldn't plank him to keep the lead, he just beat me (I mean, it is HIS metagame, that's why we call it planking, but still)

One thing I found useful every once in a while against the super laser happy falco's is an occasional forward b. throws them off guard and helps you approach. Can't do it too often though, or they take advantage and ****.

Crackle · Jan 28, 2009

Doesn't ROB have the 0 to death thing with backthrow and dair/fair?
But that's a gimp and we should ignore it huh.

I think ROB isn't horizontally mobile enough to punish Falco effectively. Plus he's a great target for dairs, even when he's shielding. Falco's bair, underrated as it is, is great for spacing in this matchup, but ROB's ftilt is also the same useful.

I think a ROB that abuses powershield and grabs should have no problem with this matchup, with the appropriate spacing to punish side-b's of course. 60-40 ROB, it's an even matchup only if you are a bad ROB that doesn't ban stages appropriately.

I'll stop typing now because for some reason my fingers feel wet...

JCaesar · Jan 29, 2009

Crackle said:
Doesn't ROB have the 0 to death thing with backthrow and dair/fair?
But that's a gimp and we should ignore it huh.

Um no. DI up + 2nd jump + side-B anywhere you want = Falco avoids the gimp.

GwJ · Jan 29, 2009

However, if you catch him out of his phantasm or w/o his doublejump, you can forward throw him from a guaranteed gimp. Haven't tried Back throw yet.

Teh Future · Jan 29, 2009

Caesar you can still predict where falco is going to go and when hes going to use his second jump. ROB's f and bairs going through falcos overB is what makes this matchup in ROBs favor, although I really wouldn't agree, I'd say it is neutral just because his lasers f ROB up so much, not to mention his bair outprioritizes everything.

Mr.E · Jan 29, 2009

Phantasm will shoot right through FAir half the time and BAir tends to knock him back through the stage as he zips through ROB and catches the back end of the hitbox, assuming you're originally "headbutting" him with it. It's the definitive edgeguard at higher percents, where they just end up flying off the other side of the stage, but it won't get you a sub-50% gimp.

Jamnt0ast · Jan 30, 2009

i find that nair and bair are the best moves to hit through Phantasm.

Elegants · Jan 30, 2009

I agree that Nair is very effective to hit phantasm.

Also, if the falco player uses the AAA to reflector combo, ROB can counter with a forward smash even if he is hit with the reflector. Though, Rob cannot be so far back from Falco that only the tip of the reflector hits. He'll land it perfectly if the ROB player spot dodges the reflector.

toasty · Jan 30, 2009

So. Annoying.

Stage Dependent.

Averages at about even.

*shoots self*

Commander_Beef · Feb 2, 2009

I am sure this matchup is annoying for R.O.B. no matter what these people say whatever is in R.O.B.'s favor =(.

CJTHeroofTime · Feb 3, 2009

I'd say 50/50, stage dependent.

Everybody covered the camping and SHDLs... like Jcaez said, dont roll. Really. It was actually this matchup that helped me break my habit of rolling too much. It just gets punished too often and too easily.

Shield-grabs and pivot grabs make this matchup bearable (for me anyway). As ROB, you want all the action to be near the ledge or offstage, but everyone explained the gimps, edgeguarding, and other off-stage action already, so I won't get into it.

BTW don't do any kind of grab releases. Falco can react way before you can do anything, so everytime you grab him, I would suggest you throw him. I find that with dthrows, you can juggle falco for a while with just utilts and the occasional uair. I try to save my bthrow in this fight, as it is usually my method of killing Falco.

Vorguen · Feb 4, 2009

I thought U-throw > B-throw for KO's. weird.

JCaesar · Feb 4, 2009

It depends. Uthrow is a lot easier to DI because it's slow, and it won't kill Falco until 160 or 170 fresh. Bthrow, especially if you do it immediately to screw up their DI, can kill pretty low or set up for gimps.

The Milk Monster · Feb 4, 2009

I know utilt ***** Fox, does it **** Falco too?
I usually do bthrow for kills if I'm using a throw.
A lot of the time I'll find myself approaching them with bair, and that really screws them up.

Vorguen · Feb 4, 2009

That's true, I forgot how hard it can be to DI with how fast you can pull off a B-throw. Plus close to the edge, it should be easy to kill with.

The Milk Monster · Feb 4, 2009

Vorguen said:
That's true, I forgot how hard it can be to DI with how fast you can pull off a B-throw. Plus close to the edge, it should be easy to kill with.

If you just instantly grab and throw, they usually don't have enough time to DI.

Vorguen · Feb 4, 2009

Good thing I only play against Robots with 1 frame reaction speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ20N6syuwc

Edit: The video is a joke, so watch it under your own discretion.

soloSHADOWROB · Feb 5, 2009

Umm idk about it being 50/50 I honestly think that Falco is one of ROB's hardest match ups.
I use to believe it was 45/55 ROB's favor up til I played DEHF (Larry, Best Falco in the WC IMO)
I guess it depends on the player though because Larry is just too **** smart for anything I throw at him.
He always saves his jumps when Im gimping him, he DI's too ****en good.
He outcamps the **** outta me and his mindgames are too good.
IMO Id say the match is is 60/40 Falco
But thats just me after playing Larry and discussing things with him thats what we agreed on

Im a very patient and calm player but when I play his Falco it just angers me so much lol

Sudai · Feb 5, 2009

I've been saying the same thing for a while, Shadow, only good Falco I've played is Sethlon though so I haven't been preaching it too hard. I don't get why Falcos are -still- calling this 60-40 in our favor.. :/

soloSHADOWROB · Feb 5, 2009

Sethlon isnt bad he plays similar to Larry only Larry is a lot *****ier lol
I know not everyone is going to agree with me but this is my opinion after playing the best Falco in the WC
Oh man I just got a whole new view of the ROB vs. Falco match up
Im sticking to 60-40

Sudai · Feb 5, 2009

I'm not saying Sethlon is horrible, but he's quite literally the only Falco I've played that wasn't just garbage.

JCaesar · Feb 5, 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZNrhmeSDaI (a little old, sorry)

'nuff said.

You can only get close when Falco makes a mistake. But on the same note, he outcamps ROB hardcore.

laser laser laser laser laser zip. Such an incredibly boring and frustrating match.

toasty · Feb 5, 2009

hah I wonder if there's a new bandwagon for people to jump on who used to say it was in Falco's favor by a good amount and then got berated by people on here til they agreed that it was even just out of frustration because people don't seem to listen or understand just how bad it can be if the Falco is technically skilled enough and smart enough.......because I'd most certainly be on that band wagon >_>

The Milk Monster · Feb 5, 2009

The couple good Falco's I've played never gave me a chance to get close, it really sucks.
The only somewhat approach I had was I got lucky with a gyro glide toss, and I usually got stopped mid slide anyways by a ****ing laser.

Taeran · Feb 5, 2009

I hate characters that can out-camp my CROB...

(CROB stands for Camo Robotic Operating Buddy)

Nefarious B · Feb 5, 2009

JCaesar007 said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZNrhmeSDaI (a little old, sorry)

'nuff said.

You can only get close when Falco makes a mistake. But on the same note, he outcamps ROB hardcore.

laser laser laser laser laser zip. Such an incredibly boring and frustrating match.

I do agree it's really bad but brainstorming to find the best way to fight him would help.

Does our uair beat his dair? If so juggling could be a good tactic, though you have to get him in the air first. Maybe a glidetoss to dthrow, though obviously a good falco won't be taken off guard by that.

How about using the reflector bside (it does reflect right? i've used the move, like, once) to force him to mix up his options and not be able to camp so easily.

As for phantasm, it seemed to shield poke a lot in your vid jcaes, maybe spot dodging is the better option.

R.O.B. Match-Up Discussion Week #12: Lase-errrr...Falco

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