Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

I thought it was 55:45 ROB's favor.

ROB should autolose to Sonic. Have you not seen all those Eggman's robots Sonic has destroyed?

(Anyone see what I did ther? =P)

Wolf is fun.

Yeah,but Eggman is an idiot and Sakurai isn-......why is it in ROBs favor again?XD

Wolf is annoying.

ROB is more fun. More on it when I wake up lol

14

next or 2 more posts steals page for Wolf.

Could I ask someone to look at this for me?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6500432#post6500432

Thanks in advance

You'll never get me to look at it otherwise Rick!


Wolf goes here, you may begin serious discussion now.

so I say 6:4, I would go higher, but then I might just find it a really hard matchup because I'ma scrub scrub scrub.

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Wolf O'Donnell



Intoduction: Leader of the rogue pirates that do whatever in the Lylat system, Wolf O'Donnell joins the Brawl with his blaster gun, eye patch (further proving he is a pirate LOL!), and an upgraded Landmaster. At least with the eye patch andt he Landmaster you won't have to worry, but Wolf not only is "suppose" to have better technology than the Starfox team, but some great combatant abilities as well. Let's take a look at him as a character in Brawl shall we?

Behaviour: In a normal situation, Wolf will try to keep you away with his Blaster Gun. Wolf is also an excellent aerial fighter, being able to do mostly lagless aerials, examples would be Bair and Fair. Being a spacie, he is notorious for a bad recovery... he's probably tied with Fox, but that isn't saying much... anyway Wolf also has some pretty crazy smash attacks, better watch out or they won't let you do that, regardless of whether you are Starfox or not.

Commonly Used Moves:

Bair: undoubtedly his most spammed move, and for good reason. With Wolf's decent speed and great acceleration, if he isn't using his Blaster gun, he's certainly using this move quite a bit. Don't try and compete with it unless you happen to be quite a bit below him and able to use Uair.

B - Blaster Gun: With the Blaster **** dealing 5% fresh , it's best if you can minimize damage taken from this. The gun itself also happens to have a hitbox, which chances are can knock you right into the projectile. If he's shooting from the ground either try and aerial approach or learn to powershield. If done from the air then don't jump right into it.

FSmash: This won't really kill seeing as how it's used quite frequently, but if you don't make use of your shield this will be quite a hassle to put up with. This attack has a logn reach, so it's best you learn how long it is exactly.

DSmash: This can kill depending on how the opponent plays. This one is as fast as Meta Knight's DSmash and probably has the same power potency as well. This is usually done if you get too close though, so just learn the distance and it won't be used too often perhaps.

USmash: It won't kill but this can catch you offgaurd since Wolf has a long DACUS (Dash-Attack-Canceled Up-Smash). Just a switch-up from Blaster camping. Has some decent shield pushback.

Nair: Poor range, but it's quite fast in all ways thinkable..

Dair: Don't worry about it.

Fair: Can be made lagless, and it has some nice power to it.

Reflector: You would think that since Sonic doesn't have a projectile this wouldn't be used, but quite frankly this has invincibility frames for Wolf and it sets up for his attacks, if you see Wolf coming down on you don't say I didn't warn you that this could and will be a possibility.

Down-Throw: Probably his best throw, since it sets you up for going offstage or some of his other attacks if you're not careful. DI up.

How to Win: You'll have to know how to powershield, this helps tremendously in the MU. If you can't get the timing down then it would also help you to know exactly how long his attacks are and how long they last/when you can take advantage of his dead frames. For a substitute for lack of Powershield timing, you can make most of your approaches from the air, and a normal shield will still suffice in some situations.

Wolf may be a spacie, known for a bad recovery, but don't get overconfident that you can just hog the ledge and auto-gimp him, oh no. Thanks to his (nearly) non-existent sweestspot on either his side-B or Up-B, he's going to usually overshoot onto the stage if possible, so be sure to mix it up every now and then and see if you can catch him when he has no choice but to go for the ledge, he is a fast faller afterall.

Recommended Stages:Go to a stage that makes recovery a big(ger) concern. You can't go wrong with Frigate Orpheon/Rainbow/Lylat Cruise. As for neutrals, I would suggest Yoshi's Isle if it is neutral, and if it's not, BF or FD depending on style of play.

Matchup Summary: This matchup is in neither characters' favor, but it is certainly one of the more annoying to deal with until you get the full drift, and even then it can still be headbanging-worthy.

SECOND OPINON:

Originally Posted by da K.I.D.
ummmm. I dont know what specifically is giving you trouble so I guess Ill just go through a basic overview of how sonic wins the match...
1. Unless you can powershield it on command, dont attempt to shield grab the bair. and you probably shouldnt try it then either, because it is lagless and has mad range. and sonic has crap grab range.
2. learn to power shield the lazers. he has a lot of lag after he fires them, so its possible to run up and grab/dash attack him after he shoots if you are close enough. alternatively, you can spinshot over them and punish him.
3. if hes the type to try to shine as hes falling to get out of comboes, you can shield grab it.
4. DOWN TILT. work on down tilting successively and doing instant reverse down tilts, if you are good you can combo wolf from 0-about 45 and than into a grab from down tilt. most people arent fast enough to do that many reverse down tilts one after the other. so just down tilt him as much as possible to punish his moves, and when you dont think youll be able to down tilt again just grab. down tilts to 2 pummel up throw, can be around 35- 45% of free damage.
5. learn what the wolf likes to do out of down throw (its the only worth while throw wolf has) and avoid the followups. usually rolling backwards is the safest option when he down throws you.
6. Stop dying. wolfs usually start fishing for down smashes at about the 110-120 range. pay attention and learn to bait shield and punish the down smash. sometimes, if the wolf is bold he will down smash your attempt to punish his down smash. dont try to grab to punish the down smash. use down tilt if he is at low percents, or ASC/fair/ftilt/bair at high percents. note the ASC and bair will probably only work if the wolf likes down smashing multiple times in a row.
7. FSMASH! most good wolfs dont use f smash any more cus its kinda bad. ut if your wolf likes to f smash. a good way to get free damage is to stand right inside the edge of his f smash range. the wolf will probably say, he doesnt know i can hit him from here. and try to f smash you. but if you shield as soon as he starts the move. its a free shield grab/down tilt at low percents for you
8. GIMPS! Gimps are very important. as its usually necessary to gimp the wolf to win seeing as wolf clearly out classes sonic in killing power. theres 2 parts to edgeguarding wolf effectively.
a. get as far out from the stage as you can to force the wolf into making an error. standing at the ledge and doing an ISDJ is a good option here. your objective isnt necessarily to gimp him, but use long lasting moves like down air, fair, and nair to either kill him or make him airdodge. if the wolf is forced to airdodge, the battle should be almost over.
b. getting to the ledge before wolf. wolf is very reliant on the ledge for his recovery. so if you can get to the edge and outlast his recovery move with your ledge invincibility, wolf will probably die, this is why its important for you to make the wolf airdodge or shine before he attempts to get to the ledge, because wolf falls like a brick, airdodging will almost always put him below the stage and it wolf is below the stage. the ledge is pretty much his only survival option. so if you can force him to do something in phase 1, and than get to the ledge before him in phase 2, the stock should be over.
also note that i believe fair trades hits with his up b, and nair outright beats it, even the weak hit. bair beats it as well. also, the hits of his up b have essentially NO hitstun, so if you get caught in it, mash your fair or nair, and you might be able to hit him out of it while you are stuck in it.
that ended up being a lot longer than I thought. hope it helps

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Wolf isn't bad actually. I always felt it was a bit like 55:45 probaby 60:40.

The main issue is the fact that he kills so much better than you, and can camp hard core.
Fsmash is DIable. @_@ Its fun really.

60:40 if hes incredibly campy.

How do you DI Wolf's FSmash anyway, is it up and towards him?

I'm not sure how that helps though, if they get me to trip, they just land another FSmash. -_-

stay close and let F-smash hit trough you.

I've Never had problems with wolf campage =/. Especially not if you play defensively yourself. Using enough SideB infzy frames to go through lasers will discourage their lazer usage. Spinshotting seems likewise effective.. Tougher on battlefield though. Shieldgrabbing is your friend. Dtilt is awesome here too. And for the love of God insta-edgehog if you can. Blah

Camping mid range is effective. Fsmash will almost ALWAYS be used out of shield and we're fast enough to stay far away enough to shield any projectiles and avoid the followup attack. If you play a Wolf that likes to Fsmash seemingly randomly spotdodge *****. He has enough cool down that you can punish.

Does anyone know if we have enough infzy edgeframes to sit on the edge while he UpB's INTO it?

I thought it was DSmash... seeing as how it's just as fast as MKs and is just as powerful...

BTW Napi, Infzy frames?

Kinzer said:

I thought it was DSmash... seeing as how it's just as fast as MKs and is just as powerful...

BTW Napi, Infzy frames?

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yes, Kinzer. Infzy frames. Wolf...I can say everything Nape said. They aren't hard, even if they are campy. They are basically smash, smash, smash, and some tilts. If they try to force you to approach with their lazars, dash like a madman and powersheild that crap, then punish accordingly. I play Wolfs all the time... Dont forget some insta-hedgehogs.

Well if you're at KILLING percent yes. They like to keep it fresh for the kill.

dont get dsmashed and live till like 150 lol

walk and powershield,

WTF is with you sonics and not walking...

50-50

down tilt combos, gimps.

watch out for random shines, i think it comboes into down smash

wolf is a very straight forward character. try to bait his spike offstage. i swear walking and p shielding will save your life

dont get side b sweetspoted, i do it to people all the time and its embarassing. dont get scared. bait scars and punish hardcore

Wolf has a nice B-air.
I believe his n-air has good priority too? Hm, I might be remembering wrong.
His D-throw can be teched quite early to (hopefully) end any tech chase that might result.
His F-smash has pretty long range, but you can SDI it right?
His laser is a pain if you don't know how to approach. Suggested approaches are Spinshot, SD fizzy frames, and walking/powershielding.
Try to gimp him early as his recovery isn't exactly top notch, lol, but watch out because if he happens to side-b sweetspot you, it will heart. Um, Idk this(cough anyexcept ones i'veread cough) match up too well, so, yeah.

i dont think wolfs use n air too much, i know i dont, i play him enough.

down throw leads into things at all %s. starting from 0 and scaling up with damage:
Down tilt
f tilt
fsmash
blaster
DACUS
blaster again

with the execption of the down tilt, you should be able to shield the other follow ups.

*very important*

LEARN TO STAY ON THE LEDGE.

you dont understand how upsetting it is to me to see a wolf/any character with a bad recovery get edgehogged and than leave the ledge just in time for the wolf to grab the ledge again.

its a petpeeve of mine in this game.

Lol, anyone remember when Wolf was thought to be one of Sonics like absolute hardest matchups? Back in the Days of SDR everything haha..

I still hate the matchup just because it's a G&W with more than Bair to worry about...

Matchup is old, but I've been playing quite a few G&W vs Sonic matchups lately and my opinion has kinda changed about the matchup.

It's at least 70/30 in G&W's favor. =/

Sonic really can't do anything safe on G&W's shield except for the uncommon mindgame into a spindash shieldgrab. In the air, G&W usually punishes Sonic out of shield with Up-B or N-air. On the ground, B-air out of shield usually punishes Sonic. It's true nobody likes to approach in this matchup due to it sucking on both ends, but G&W has it better with the occasional shield poking from the B-air. B-air shuts down Sonic on the ground pretty hard if he knows how to not get hit by random charged F-smashes.

G&W's Up-smash is also retardedly hard for Sonic to punish. Approaching into it is usually suicide for Sonic, since G&W's head seems to be invincible during the attack, but Sonic's (insert part of body) usually isn't when he attacks. It's completely safe on block. It can be made to come out very fast by simply releasing it from a charge. And of course, it KOs ridiculously low.

Most G&W's nowadays edgecamp a lot when they get in the lead, and it's very effective and extremely safe. If he's edgecamping, your goal is to coerce him into rolling back on stage by finding that really really narrow window where your opponent is stuck to the ledge and has to choose between a getup or getting hit.

Oh yeah, and lastly, Bucket Braking. Nuff said

So yeah, in short, G&W has way superior camping, can safely KO you really early, and if he's one of those players who doesn't fall into random charged F-smashes, he is able to live almost forever.

We already got that sorted out A2 (lol false steaksauce bottle reference right here?)...

Although a 5 point difference doesn't really matter (and I would rather say it's 65:35 just to be optimistic), we already realise G&W is one of Sonic's worst matchups.

Besides that, imagine people coming to this thread to see that G&W is a harder matchup for Sonic than MK and we're going to get even more complaints/spam posts that derail the main subject at hand... :

Oh, and now that I actually read your post, here's my 2cents.

Mindgames, that's how we roll... too bad they aren't really aplicable in matchup threads, regardless I highly doubt any G&W's are going to to really put their shield up just to be worn down... I mean Sonic will be playing at that range that G&W can't really get punished, but won't be approaching/running to the other side of the stage either... playing patiently is the only way to win this matchup anyway.

I don't know about U-Smash being hard to punish, but a simple FTilt woul take care of it, seeing as how it would only clank at worst case scenario.

We have a better bucket-brake, it's called ASC!

Sonic is the king of punishment, and perfect reaction can only get so far in matchup trheads before a really potent Sonic player will always find a way around the G&W player's faults.

I was suggesting that the matchup could be as bad as 75/25.

Sonic doesn't have the tools to reliably pressure shields with attacks. Shieldcamping is very viable against him.

If G&W Up-smashes at the right time, it's possible for him to outprioritize a non-disjointed hitbox. It has no ending lag, so by the time you discover he's Up-smashing, THEN walk up to him and try to F-tilt, he should already have Up-smashed, and then gets to shield, and if you hit his shield, he gets to punish with F-air or B-air out of shield. The risk/reward factor is drastically in G&W's favor when he Up-smashes. More importantly, you can't punish his Up-smash on block at all. If you're spamming F-tilt a lot, you're probably getting ***** by his aerials moreover.

Setting up an Up-smash isn't unreasonably hard on Sonic. Juggle him. Wait for the moment where he inevitably has to come back to the ground. Charge Up-smash where he is headed. If he does either a Homing Attack, an aerial, or an air dodge into that location, the Up-smash if done right will punish it.

Sonic is good at punishing, but he can't do jack to shields without getting punished himself. None of his good punish techniques can really punish G&W's Up-smash. It's extremely difficult for Sonic to punish a defensive G&W with any kill moves, and none of them have truly outstanding knockback.

What I do is I either wait for Sonic to attack or wait for him to run away, corner him, and B-air him as he's close to the edge where he can't escape.

We can running shield grab you. If you try to punish too early you hit our shield and we grab, if you wait too long we'll start grabbing, we'll get hit but we'll still get the grab. Not to mention your shield isn't infinite. We can just run NEAR you and spin cancel. If GaW is holding the shield he'll obviously make it shrink a bit. It basically takes a new shield to not get eaten by Usmash. An Usmash with Invinci frames I might add.

A2ZOMG's probably right. But I'm not convinced it's that strong a disadvantage.

Every time I've eaten a G&W Upsmash, I've known it was my own fault, and felt subsequently ********. Usually I was trying to punish/outprioritize it, but you're right that it's a very safe move for G&W to use when we're trying to land. But that doesn't mean it should ever hit us. Our airspeed is fast enough and we have enough options to mix up our descent.

If we're falling towards a G&W and we haven't used spring, we're pretty safe; we spring in the worst case, which can often buy us time/unpredictability to land safely (on many stages, a spring from above the ground can allow us to lagless-Dair ledgegrab whichever side of the stage we want, lol... or land anywhere in between). Putting the spring into G&W's upsmash gives it a bit of extra hitlag (or hits him instead), which helps a bit If we have used our Spring, we're likely coming in low from the sides (recovery), in which case the edge / walljump potential gives us more options to avoid the Usmash, and/or we can airdodge through. Alternatively, we're in a bad spot if we're just falling towards the centre of the stage from a spring, but our airspeed can still often outpace the G&W.

Bucket braking: we sorta have that too Sonic's down-B actually works extremely well for this. Not as crazy as bucket-braking because of its start-up lag, but the braking effect happens as soon as the down-B's released, which is quite fast.

Sonic's jab > G&W's Dtilt. It also comes out 1 frame faster than G&W's jab, if djbrowny's to be believed. IMO our jab helps a lot in this matchup, except we're apparently punishable from shield (I'm not sure how true this is; you sure we can't just outrun the turtle, or likely even shield-grab if you're using it on us OoS) so the jab helps us mixup our grab-punishment (since it's usually safe when they'll spotdodge). And jab doesn't help vs. aerials, but obv we wouldn't be jabbing if he's using an aerial on us.

Dash Attack helps when G&W does anything laggy, and he's above low %. This includes any missed up-smashes

infzy said:

Every time I've eaten a G&W Upsmash, I've known it was my own fault, and felt subsequently ********. Usually I was trying to punish/outprioritize it, but you're right that it's a very safe move for G&W to use when we're trying to land. But that doesn't mean it should ever hit us. Our airspeed is fast enough and we have enough options to mix up our descent.

If we're falling towards a G&W and we haven't used spring, we're pretty safe; we spring in the worst case, which can often buy us time/unpredictability to land safely (on many stages, a spring from above the ground can allow us to lagless-Dair ledgegrab whichever side of the stage we want, lol... or land anywhere in between). Putting the spring into G&W's upsmash gives it a bit of extra hitlag (or hits him instead), which helps a bit If we have used our Spring, we're likely coming in low from the sides (recovery), in which case the edge / walljump potential gives us more options to avoid the Usmash, and/or we can airdodge through. Alternatively, we're in a bad spot if we're just falling towards the centre of the stage from a spring, but our airspeed can still often outpace the G&W.

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I could honestly say the same thing about getting killed by Sonic's B-air, U-air, F-smash, and D-smash....cause usually I didn't DI right, didn't Up-B away when I should have, or I was playing on wifi where I kill my own spacing a lot (I think G&W sucks a lot on wifi because of this. Go figure).

His aerial acceleration is pretty lame. Following where Sonic is going isn't that hard. He has to commit to an attack to gain notable mobility, and a lot of Sonic's "better" mobility is long duration in a single direction.

Bucket braking: we sorta have that too Sonic's down-B actually works extremely well for this. Not as crazy as bucket-braking because of its start-up lag, but the braking effect happens as soon as the down-B's released, which is quite fast.

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Sounds cool, but it shouldn't see nearly as much use in this matchup considering that G&W also KOs much earlier on most of his attacks. =/

He probably is going to kill you with F-air or D-air in the most desperate scenario. F-air comes out fast and is good out of shield in certain situations. D-air can be very difficult to avoid offstage.

Sonic's jab > G&W's Dtilt. It also comes out 1 frame faster than G&W's jab, if djbrowny's to be believed. IMO our jab helps a lot in this matchup, except we're apparently punishable from shield (I'm not sure how true this is; you sure we can't just outrun the turtle, or likely even shield-grab if you're using it on us OoS) so the jab helps us mixup our grab-punishment (since it's usually safe when they'll spotdodge). And jab doesn't help vs. aerials, but obv we wouldn't be jabbing if he's using an aerial on us.

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Good G&W players only D-tilt when you have committed to an approach. If they see anything else, they will B-air or shieldcamp.

Dash Attack helps when G&W does anything laggy, and he's above low %. This includes any missed up-smashes

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True enough, unless of course he's Up-smashing your shield, in which case you're not getting past a -1 frame advantage. Retreating B-air is also pretty much safe from Sonic's DA.

I wish Sonic has Wario mobility

We'd be like OH NOEZ I DID UP-B NOW I HAVE TO GO THE WAY I FACE.
You do that for a while and be like. NO and land behind them .

Sonic + Wario mobility + Sonic air speed = crazy O_o

Spinshot to retreating Wario mobility lulz

i dont think its that hopeless for sonic, bair really isnt that great if you know how to deal with it...

shield and spotdodge the last hit.
run away from it, and if you do it right you cna run back in and punish it.
DI+SDI up and punish.

also, with GaWs little lag, dash attack is invaluable in this matchup.

Did someone make an export yet? We haven't gotten Wolf input yet.

I've played more G&Ws recently, and I just think its easier, so I don't think theres any point in changing the matchup numbers =/. As my spacing and pivots gets better, I find it way easier to punish G&W startup lag. You'd be really dumb to try to run into charging smashes, as its a virtually instant charge release, but otherwise statup lag is punishable via powershield+grab. Tech chases on G&W also seem easy because of his slow roll.

And no, you are unlikely to catch Sonic with an upsmash when he is returning to the ground, if the Sonic knows what he's doing. Hold shield as you land, and you airdodge into a shield. I keep on telling people that in most cases its useless to try to hit Sonic out of an autocancelling height dair, the attack needs huge vertical range in order for sonic not to be safe. Your best option is almost always to grab Sonic upon landing, as he can do very little against that except an extremely well timed spot dodge.

Napilopez said:

I've played more G&Ws recently, and I just think its easier, so I don't think theres any point in changing the matchup numbers =/. As my spacing and pivots gets better, I find it way easier to punish G&W startup lag. You'd be really dumb to try to run into charging smashes, as its a virtually instant charge release, but otherwise statup lag is punishable via powershield+grab. Tech chases on G&W also seem easy because of his slow roll.

And no, you are unlikely to catch Sonic with an upsmash when he is returning to the ground, if the Sonic knows what he's doing. Hold shield as you land, and you airdodge into a shield. I keep on telling people that in most cases its useless to try to hit Sonic out of an autocancelling height dair, the attack needs huge vertical range and/or a long lasting hitbox in order for sonic not to be safe. Your best option is almost always to grab Sonic upon landing, as he can do very little against that except an extremely well timed spot dodge.

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fixed4ya

10Zamusupsmashes

I am not convinced G&W is even that hard of a matchup.

USmash, if you're playing to avoid it liek you avoid grabs on ICs, is too easy to avoid. Infzy is right that Sonic is only going to get hit because of a mistake on his part. BTW just because it has some decent pushback and frames to lag the shield, FTilt comes out fast enoguh and should have enoguh range on it to hit with the shoes.

Go do Bair from whatever, we know what to expect from this broken-arse move so we can do anything we can to avoid the move and punish from a fresh shield which we should always have for that reason. If our shield gets worn-down, we run like the annoying @#$%ers we are. Not to mention G&W has to do so much junk from a neutral position just to punish with Bair, what with having to turn around, jump, and start up the attack. G&W's Bair is so overrated it's ridiculous. If Sonic is one of if not the only character who can run away from Mach Tornado and still be able to punish it isn't something mention-worthy, why is Bair any different?

It isn't let me tell you, they both require a healthy shield to withstand, they're easy to punish if you've been exposed to them time after time, and the only reason neither work is because of the player's incompetance or the-... nevermind, all Sonic's should be keeping their shields up just because.

I already told you this, and Infzy just did as well, that you can shield camp all you want, but the bubble won't last as much as your patience will, you will have to wear it down eventually to the point where it will get taken advantage of.

I think I mentioned this before, but you're really making USmash look better than it is, just because it has the K.O. power and the instant charge release... but that stuff's easy to see coming at 75+%. Just one more thing we have to worry about when we play to "not get hit" is all.

You got it all wrong, Sonic can change up his game to that point where you won't pick up on his style if he isn't predictable... USmash is hard to place if Sonic isn't being careless with his last resort tactics (Spring, fish-state Fair, misplacing aerials, etc.).

I'm not going to argue about who is going to die sooner since that's player, but I'll just say G&W is paper-weight light... :/



I want Wolf talk up in dis house yo, and if an export hasn't been made yet somebody's got to do it (without getting caught of course).

Edit: Kid, don't forget Snake and his super sexy long legs.

da K.I.D. said:

fixed4ya

10Zamusupsmashes

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Ah, thanks KID.

Also, I think its hilarious how both you and Yuna have posts relating to one another, negatively, lolz.

i did it first, hes just copying me...

why is up smash even being discussed for this match?
I can dash attack you from halfway across the stage before you even get it out...

theres way more dangerous stuff that GaW has than up smash for this matchup.

That's why I'm saying this, because A2 (False Steaksauce) apparently doesn't understand that USmash is not as great as he trys to make it.

WOLF D***IT! I WANT WOLF MAINS IN HERE!!

I'm going to export this for you guys. Why? Because I'm cool like that.

However, I've never played a sonic I've read plenty on the boards and watched plenty of vids though. Still, not going to risk saying anything stupid until someone else brings up a point I agree with.

In my opinion wolf has a slight advantage over sonic.

i think the whole match boils down to how well the sonic can handle lazors.

50-50

I also think its probably even, but lasers don't seem like such a huge part of the matchup to me, more focus on punishing is what I'm thinking. Lasers really aren't that bad for any character, there's enough cooldown for sonic to punish.