Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

A2ZOMG · Feb 1, 2009

Kinzer said:
They haven't played me either than I guess... anybody can be in the neutral position at the start of the match... I know better than to approach G&W because of his tools, and I have no reason to approach with that mindset... not to mention G&W can't going to force one, I happen to be very patient. (Bacon does not count, it is slow, and too easy to punish with FTilt)

G&W can just walk up, shieldcamp, you can't approach, you have to run away or mindgame into grabbing him. If you miss the grab, you get punished. If you get cornered at the ledge, you get punished. Basically, the only option for Sonic is to somehow get past G&W's shieldcamping, which can only be done if he successfully grabs.

LOL insta-edgehog and G&W approaching me or jumping offstage/out of the way to let him whiff his Bair... C'mon man, both characters can play gay, why would G&W be any different? His Bair isn't THAT long.

I WANT you to go to the ledge. This is an advantageous position for G&W. I can counter any of your getups with a D-air or D-tilt. If you try to Up-B above me, I'm still in a better position as I can juggle.

By the way, you can't go to the ledge if you hold up shield. I can just then run towards you to coerce you to the ledge and then once you're there you get ***** by G&W's ledge trap options.

IF, the keyword... you won't do it right everytime, and even matchup discussions have their limits on how far both characters can be perfect. BTW I have been able to punish G&W's attacks... perhaps the player was not frame perfect, but it's somewhere close, I've done it, and you cannot disprove that no matter how hard you want to try without having to get frame data ofr a helluva lot of things... besides that, punishing is one thing, but being able to react with things like an Up-B, be it out of shield or not, have to wait for things like... oh I dunno... Lag? Deadframes exist, and Sonic players always work to find them because they can only do so in this short timeframes.

If you mess up the slightest, I have an opening to Up-smash, and you get gimped. So I don't care what stupid ways you have to punish G&W for messing up. I punish you way better when you mess up. I'm overall much safer when nobody is messing up.

Again, IF! I doubt they'll get it dead-on all the time, and besides that, there's only so long before you get pinned, like say you get FSmashed near the end of the 2nd stage of Castle Siege... I'd like to see you DI that. It's not always going to be on Final Destination from the other side.

Don't CP small stages against G&W. That is actually suicide as he starts KOing you really early with F-airs and D-airs.

FD is CLEARLY a better stage for Sonic against anyone....sure it brings out G&W's Bucket Braking more. Doesn't matter when Sonic wants space to spindash.

Both character can live at the same percent, G&W isn't the only character with a a momentum-killing move. BTW unless I'm really screwing up, I don't ever see my opponents live past 150%, in which case I'd just play to rack-up damage to post 200%, and go for the grab... U-throw kills in that range... however that shouldn't even be happening... unless as I've already said, I screw up bigtime. Yes I'm willing to admit I mess up here and then.

Sonic's momentum cancel isn't as good. Sonic's KO moves by far are much more limited and hurt by stale moves. G&W clearly lives a lot longer. THe only time Sonic lives to high percents is when G&W is more focused on dealing damage than scoring the KO early. G&W however ALWAYS should live to high percents regardless of how hard Sonic tries to score the KO early.

Sure, if I can get you at the ~110% range, G&W won't be able to live to my Forward smashes either! ^_^ Again Sonic players can play campy if they want to, contrary to popular belief.

110% is about the percent Mario dies from a F-smash. G&W should actually survive that with the momentum brake. Sonic's F-smash is also REALLY unsafe and telegraphed. If I see you using F-smash, I will punish it with a F-air. And then you will be dead instead.

It could or it couldn't be, but personally I see little trouble to it thanks my multiple experience with very good G&W players... I can always pick up on G&W's deadtime in which he can't do anything, I assume other Sonic and G&W players alike would do the same thing if they wanted to get anywhere in tourneys.

Yeah, most G&W players don't have experience vs Sonic. =/

Well now I hope you realise that Sonic is G&W but heavier. The only reason he would be dying any sooner than G&W, is because he fell into some stupid junk... I haven't been killed by an USmash iv forever, it's always DSmash because it has more range... but man how easy is it to land a FTilt OoS when you get hit by a Dsmash, huh? It's funny because most of the G&W players I face get so scared of me that they release the attacks as I get to them, but I always put up a shield, and my PSing against G&W has gotten so phenominal, that unless it's a Dair/Bair, I won't really have any trouble. :D

I'll be glad to prove you wrong. Despite G&W sucking massively on wifi.

Yes, G&W sucks a lot on wifi. He relies on tight spacing, which is ruined by wifi lag.

_clinton · Feb 1, 2009

Boy I really should go to bed for now...

I wish Ness and Lucas had some special forms of movement that made playing them a lot more invigurating (Well they do, but I mean things like a good Wave Throw and an actual momentum brake because I like *****ing at things I don't have ^_^) but whatever now I have even more things I like about Sonic (And here I thought using the Side B as part of the recovery after Fair was killing me sooner and I stopped using it >_>)

A2ZOMG said:
I'll be glad to prove you wrong. Despite G&W sucking massively on wifi.
Yes, G&W sucks a lot on wifi. He relies on tight spacing, which is ruined by wifi lag.

Well to be fair its not like Sonic is great on Wifi as well (although even if there is lag...a lot of it that is...it can be explained sometimes by other people using 10 cent connections)

Browny · Feb 1, 2009

theory theory theory theory

and more theory!

and then pre-emptive wifi johns! why are you debating this? weve already done G&W, were finishing like 2 characters left out of the entire cast, we know G&W is a bad matchup and will get back to G&W in a few weeks time. in that time hopefully you can get some sonic experience vs players that dont stale their fsmash 5 times before KO range and know how to not walk into usmash

ROOOOY! · Feb 1, 2009

A2ZOMG said:
If you mess up the slightest, I have an opening to Up-smash, and you get gimped. So I don't care what stupid ways you have to punish G&W for messing up. I punish you way better when you mess up. I'm overall much safer when nobody is messing up.

Gimped...usmash...what the ****?
Sonic is as ungimpable if not more ungimpable then Game & Watch.
Do you even know Sonic's recovery techniques at all?

Don't CP small stages against G&W. That is actually suicide as he starts KOing you really early with F-airs and D-airs.

Works both ways, obviously. Considering Game & Watch is light, he's going to be dying early too. It's almost as if Sonic has no kill moves...
I do agree with you though, kinda.

FD is CLEARLY a better stage for Sonic against anyone....sure it brings out G&W's Bucket Braking more. Doesn't matter when Sonic wants space to spindash.

No, no, no. I thought we'd gotten out of this mentality that Final Destination was Sonic's best stage like late June or something :\
AND SONIC DOES NOT WANT SPACE TO SPINDASH.
Spindash is a horrible move, no good Sonic's use it to approach, or as a direct attack. NONE.

Sonic's momentum cancel isn't as good. Sonic's KO moves by far are much more limited and hurt by stale moves.

First bit, granted. But why do his kill moves suffer from staling? Fsmash isn't going to be used at all by a good Sonic until he wants to kill, and dsmash is only going to be used twice a stock MAX, because it's only real use it spotdodge punishment. Bair, maybe it's going to be used more, but it's the weakest of the three so meh.

G&W clearly lives a lot longer.

Why? Bucket Breaking? That's only going to save you til about 140%ish, from what I was testing. That's not that long, really.

THe only time Sonic lives to high percents is when G&W is more focused on dealing damage than scoring the KO early.

The problem is that throughout your post you've just pictured that the Sonic player is a bag of ****, and that the G&W is frame perfect and that with everything he does. I thought in match-up discussions that we were meant to presume that both characters had high level players playing them?

Speaking of which, what Sonic's have you played offline? Hell, what Sonic's have you played ONLINE? Not that that holds any weight at all.

G&W however ALWAYS should live to high percents regardless of how hard Sonic tries to score the KO early.

Again, why? Let's presume that the Sonic is playing intelligently for a second. Sonic is not going to be dying early, he's not a featherweight, being heavier than Mario and all. I rarely die normally before 150%, that's playing good people too. Obviously, I'm going to be dying a little earlier against G&W thanks to his kill moves, but still, I can't see G&W living til 150% AT ALL provided the Sonic is intelligent as to when he lands his kill moves. Sonic doesn't need these moves to rack up damage, he has a lot of ways to do that without them, y'know?

Sonic's F-smash is also REALLY unsafe and telegraphed. If I see you using F-smash, I will punish it with a F-air. And then you will be dead instead.

This isn't really the move though, is it? There's nothing inherent about it that makes it unsafe. It has decent range (especially stutterstepped), ok priority (beats out several fsmashes like Mario's and DK's, but I don't know what their priority is like.) It's start-up (16 frames) isn't that bad. But obviously as everyone playing G&W is perfect, they're going to punish it every time, right?

No, the only time this move, or infact any move that isn't itself unsafe (something like Ganon's utilt or Ike's fsmash is unsafe, but even those can be if used in certain situations) is if the player is using it wrongly.

I'll be glad to prove you wrong. Despite G&W sucking massively on wifi.

Yes, G&W sucks a lot on wifi. He relies on tight spacing, which is ruined by wifi lag.

Cry me a river. Seriously, my heart bleeds for you.

I'm sure your long ranged attacks with longlasting hitboxes and fast, decently ranged KO moves suffer a lot.

Whilst a character with subpar range, needs to be precise, has awkward kill moves, and depends on timing things right as they're a character who's whole game revolves around punishment fares sooo much better, right?

Camalange · Feb 1, 2009

A2, ROOOOY already did a great job at responding, but I feel there are some points I must reiterate.

A2ZOMG said:
If you mess up the slightest, I have an opening to Up-smash, and you get gimped. So I don't care what stupid ways you have to punish G&W for messing up. I punish you way better when you mess up. I'm overall much safer when nobody is messing up.

If you mess up the slightest, I have an opening to Fsmash or Bair, and you get gimped. That first statement alone goes for ANY CHARACTER IN THE WHOLE GAME. If you mess up, you WILL GET PUNISHED. It's nothing GaW vs Sonic exclusive. So I don't care what stupid ways you have to punish Sonic for messing up because match up discussion revolve around theory where if you take two players at the peak of competitive play who can make no flaws, and they use these two characters, we need to figure out who has the advantage. SONIC HOWEVER is a very punishment based character because of his ability to punish the slightest hint of lag with his immense speed, so Sonic should be doing most of the punishing anyway. This is why he is so severely underated, but it is true though that GaW is safer than Sonic in most situations...yet the "options" you brought up are complete and total garbage. I have no clue where you were trying to go with this.

FD is CLEARLY a better stage for Sonic against anyone....sure it brings out G&W's Bucket Braking more. Doesn't matter when Sonic wants space to spindash.

No no no no no no no no no no....no.

A GOOD SONIC NEVER EVER APPROACHES WITH SPINDASH.
Why must this be brought up in every single discussion? It's why I never come here anymore. Sonic's spindash is very similar to that of moves like Falcon's Raptor Boost and Ganon's Murder Choke. IT'S USED FOR PUNISHMENT. Spindash is fast and covers Sonic in a hitbox, so if you leave yourself open, SPINDASH WILL THEN BE USED TO QUICKLY PUNISH YOU. Sonic has many options out of Spindash though such as ASC, ASCSC, and blah blah, no need to get into confusing acronyms.

People also like to assume that FD is his best stage because apparently he has so much space to just run around which makes him so good. No, stop assuming. If you don't know the match up, that's fine. But don't come in here acting like you know how Sonic is played and how GaW just completely shuts down everything.

Sonic's momentum cancel isn't as good.

You act like Bucket Braking is some Holy Grail where GaW can live to like 300%. On most stages, Bucket Braking only really allows GaW to survive maybe an extra 20% tops. Which is good, but apparently Sonic can't do **** to survive right? No.

Sonic's FF Fair followed by DownB is amazing momentum canceling and infzy himself (the guy who discovered this almighty Bucket Braking) has said so himself that Sonic's momentum canceling options are some of the best (after doing immense amounts of research). To top it all off, Sonic is actually the most mid weight character in the game, right above Mario. I survive to at least 170% unless I get hit by a partial charged smash or something. Sure, his momentum canceling isn't AS GOOD, but GaW will NOT be living THAT MUCH LONGER than Sonic. They will die around the same percents.

G&W however ALWAYS should live to high percents regardless of how hard Sonic tries to score the KO early.

For the facts I've stated, this has been proven false. Isn't it a shame how even though you claim it as fact, it's still total bull****? I'm sorry your facts are really just bias.

Sonic's F-smash is also REALLY unsafe and telegraphed. If I see you using F-smash, I will punish it with a F-air. And then you will be dead instead.

It's obvious that you've been listening to some of the SBR's biased opinions of Sonic. Glad you listen to whatever they say about a character they know nothing about.

We're not just going to stand there and just toss out random Fsmashes, we're going to save it for the kill smarty. Couldn't I just say that GaWs Fsmash has a lot of start up lag, so I could just grab him before it comes out? It's highly telegraphed so I can pretty much beat it out all the time.

Yeah, most G&W players don't have experience vs Sonic. =/

It's obvious you don't, so why are you in this thread again? Not to be rude, but your points are so flawed, that I yelled at my computer and face palmed multiple times.

I'll be glad to prove you wrong. Despite G&W sucking massively on wifi.

Yes, G&W sucks a lot on wifi. He relies on tight spacing, which is ruined by wifi lag.

Seriously? Seriously? I don't even have to address this because you just embarrassed yourself by saying this.

ggs

ShadowLink84 · Feb 1, 2009

A2ZOMG said:
G&W can just walk up, shieldcamp, you can't approach, you have to run away or mindgame into grabbing him. If you miss the grab, you get punished. If you get cornered at the ledge, you get punished. Basically, the only option for Sonic is to somehow get past G&W's shieldcamping, which can only be done if he successfully grabs.

If this were true, sonic would be at a disadvantage against everyone. Again, shield camp all you want, G&W has no reliable method of forcing Sonic to do anything without exposing himself to danger. If &W attempts to approach with his beastly Bair, Sonic can simply move away and then grab you once you land during the move. Or he can simply continue moving away until you use a move that he can capitalize upon,G&W relies on his ability to aerially space anda sonic that plays extremely gay is really good at screwing up the spacing.

A2ZOMG said:
I WANT you to go to the ledge. This is an advantageous position for G&W. I can counter any of your getups with a D-air or D-tilt. If you try to Up-B above me, I'm still in a better position as I can juggle.

I would simply side B~reverse Bair you in the face.
If you try to Dair, well then you try to Dair, but the side B moves me away from the ledge to a position where if you Dair, I can hit you on the side and break it.
you are much better off simply spacing away from the ledge, waiting for sonic to first get up and then attacking him. going after him while he is on the ledge doesn't work out as well.

A2ZOMG said:
By the way, you can't go to the ledge if you hold up shield. I can just then run towards you to coerce you to the ledge and then once you're there you get ***** by G&W's ledge trap options.

What?
I would simply run away, side B pivot and spinshot OVER you to get away from the ledge.
G&W will use his aerial because they last long, have great range and reduce options. It is silly to say you'll chase Sonic so very simply, especially since he is much faster than you.

A2ZOMG said:
If you mess up the slightest, I have an opening to Up-smash, and you get gimped. So I don't care what stupid ways you have to punish G&W for messing up. I punish you way better when you mess up. I'm overall much safer when nobody is messing up.

You can gimp with Usmash?
You have a 25 frame USmash.
pray tell, what moves will Sonic use that enables you to smack him with a Usmash?
Even OOS you won't land it.

A2ZOMG said:
Don't CP small stages against G&W. That is actually suicide as he starts KOing you really early with F-airs and D-airs.

Considering G&W is much lighter than Sonic, it also means sonic can kill G&W earlier. The benefits we gain are greater than yours. Of course you still kill earlier, but we now no longer have to worry about killing so very late.

A2ZOMG said:
FD is CLEARLY a better stage for Sonic against anyone....sure it brings out G&W's Bucket Braking more. Doesn't matter when Sonic wants space to spindash.

Spindash isn't used for spacing. Its used as a part of indirect approaching, big difference.
FD is not a great Sonic stage. I can name a few that are better.

A2ZOMG said:
Sonic's momentum cancel isn't as good. Sonic's KO moves by far are much more limited and hurt by stale moves. G&W clearly lives a lot longer. THe only time Sonic lives to high percents is when G&W is more focused on dealing damage than scoring the KO early. G&W however ALWAYS should live to high percents regardless of how hard Sonic tries to score the KO early.

Why oh why would they be hurt by staling when they are RARELY used?
Let alone why are you making these assumptions?
Sonic isn't going to Di properly?
sonic isn't going to be spacing G&W whose kill moves are all 10 frames and higher?
Let alone that sonic is a medium weight.
Sonic is very difficult to kill because of his ability to mess with spacing.

A2ZOMG said:
110% is about the percent Mario dies from a F-smash. G&W should actually survive that with the momentum brake. Sonic's F-smash is also REALLY unsafe and telegraphed. If I see you using F-smash, I will punish it with a F-air. And then you will be dead instead.

If I see you whiffing a bair I Dsmash you or grab you. if you jump above me i Uair you.You are dealing in absolutes which does not work out.

A2ZOMG said:
Yeah, most G&W players don't have experience vs Sonic. =/

Who cares?
Experience means little, we analyze the characters based on their abilities.

A2ZOMG said:
I'll be glad to prove you wrong. Despite G&W sucking massively on wifi.

Yes, G&W sucks a lot on wifi. He relies on tight spacing, which is ruined by wifi lag.

I'll let this hang a bit.

Terios the Hedgehog · Feb 1, 2009

ShadowLink84 said:
FD is not a great Sonic stage. I can name a few that are better.

I disagree. It's not the BEST Sonic stage. It's still great for him though.

Tenki · Feb 1, 2009

lol @ direct spindash approach, but we've had enough of that.

also, I was the one who brought up that Sonic's down-B could be more useful than side-B for breaking momentum because the charge itself doesn't have any special momentum change of its own, whereas side-B's charge may 'pop' you further from the stage, to your death.

ShadowLink84 said:
Considering G&W is much lighter than Sonic, it also means sonic can kill G&W earlier. The benefits we gain are greater than yours. Of course you still kill earlier, but we now no longer have to worry about killing so very late.

I think compared to Marth, G&W is about 5% "lighter" horizontally, and about 15% "lighter" vertically.

Sonic's vertical kill options tend to be rather telegraphed, so I wouldn't rely on those.

GAW's horizontal lifespan is further boosted by bucket braking, though I'm not sure if GAW's down-B stops vertical momentum as well.

edit:
oh, on the Sonic + wifi thing - Sonic really benefits from shield and run camping seeing as he doesn't have many high priority/ranged moves that opponents have to be wary of.

I've pretty much quit wifi as of late because I'm tired of trying to practice things like running in and shielding/grabbing a retreating landing aerial and running into a B-air/smash instead.

Browny · Feb 1, 2009

man, that 3-hit combo was nice

BTW everyone says spindash is so bad as an approach, but Malcolm's Sonic uses it a lot...
lolwut

Tenki · Feb 1, 2009

djbrowny said:
BTW everyone says spindash is so bad as an approach, but Malcolm's Sonic uses it a lot...
lolwut

If your opponent doesn't punish it, why not? lol. Same thing with homing attack.

But aside from that, if you attack a spindash, you'll pretty much outprioritize it. Why else do we have to keep reminding people that Sonic has aerials and tilts?

edit:
also, we say that it's a bad direct approach - like, when your opponent is in a state where he can just shield or pull out an aerial fast enough to outprioritize it.

JayBee · Feb 1, 2009

Whenever i play a good GaW the thing that annoys me the most is when he edge camps, but other than that if i play smart the match isn't as hopeless as certain people are saying. The best GaW's are the really good with tilts, jabs, and dthrow setups. the general "bair fair bair fair" idea" overrated, dispite that fact that ir does serve a purpose. Sonic can punish under these moves well, sliping under with Upsmash, and the lag is punishable too. he can't make sonic do anything with his moves to approach haphazardly, so jumping around and spamming aerials is the general idea against sonic, to protect themselves just in case he does come at them, which is still a guess because sonic fakes approaches too well.

the key for GaW will be how well he fights when they are close together, which both characters have to do eventually. staying away the whole time lets sonic pick his aerial approach apart. yeah, he can play better defensively, but isnt' that because he's kinda forced to in this matchup? i think so. seriously, when i play godismyrocks GaW it feels like he's camping until i make a mistake appraoching.

_clinton · Feb 1, 2009

Tenki said:
GAW's horizontal lifespan is further boosted by bucket braking, though I'm not sure if GAW's down-B stops vertical momentum as well.

It does...There is a video (I'll go and hunt it down if I have to) that shows him living past what ROB can take...Nair is G&W's overall fastest aerial...

ShadowLink84 · Feb 1, 2009

Tenki said:
stuff

My point is that Sonic has a much easier time killing in comparison to before, than G&W would experience.

So while SOnic has issues killing until later percentages, its much lesser for him.
For G&W, its not that much different.

Tenki · Feb 1, 2009

ShadowLink84 said:
Tenki said:

Stuffing*

Click to expand...

My point is that Sonic has a much easier time killing in comparison to before, than G&W would experience.

So while SOnic has issues killing until later percentages, its much lesser for him.
For G&W, its not that much different.

Clarify:
You mean that, in terms of landing a kill move, Sonic has an easier, (or in terms of ease vs earliness) balanced time setting up/landing kill moves than GAW?

ShadowLink84 · Feb 1, 2009

Tenki said:
Clarify:
You mean that, in terms of landing a kill move, Sonic has an easier, (or in terms of ease vs earliness) balanced time setting up/landing kill moves than GAW?

As in
Fsmash killing at 100% as opposed to 130% for Sonic.

While G&W would be from 110% to 100%

Made up numbers BTW

Kinzer · Feb 2, 2009

God **** A2, you had three different people not including me refute your points that were aimed at me... I would feel bad to add more to the scorching.

But seriously, enough of this, G&W has already been discussed, there is nothing more to debate about, it's gone and done with, can we please fuggin talk about Wolf unless we're done with that?!

Edit: I'll steal this page for the next character if we don't want to talk about Wolf any further.

If that should be the case, our next and second to last matchup is Bowser.

If you want, we could talk about both, or continue to discuss Wolf and I'll just steal another top-page.

ShadowLink84 · Feb 2, 2009

Steal the next top page. I would like to see if I can get more wolf players in here.

Browny · Feb 2, 2009

So... my matchup experience vs wolf is pretty limited. does anyone think this video is good enough for me to work with?
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=UOC7B6eWkDY&feature=channel_page
I was pretty confident before that match and had one thing on my mind... spam grabs. It turned out alright but idk if thats the most effective way to play against a wolf. normally i would try the usual uair/bair spam and I didnt bother using many tilts since wolf pretty much has you beat on the ground with his smashes. So, grab/tilts/aerials, whats the best way to go about facing wolf? his bair is annoying :<

Kinzer · Feb 2, 2009

You have to play VERY differently with Wolf, that's for sure.

I shouldb't be giving you advice seeing as how I have trouble with Wolf myself, but hey you don't have to take it so here I go.

Wolf is a spacie, so I would think grabs could ruin him. Playing a more aerial-based game seems more promising than trying to fight him on the ground with all his tricksies and stuff.

ArcPoint · Feb 2, 2009

Uhm... Blaster beats his Side B... Fsmash is super punishable. I have no clue about grab combos, I don't think Sonic has any save for the tech chase. But I could be wrong, who knows.

Best thing to do IMO is get inside Wolf. Keep him in the air somehow, play safe...

Fair can be punished, Ftilt is super punishable on shield. Bair is hard to punish on block. Getting inside him helps screw up that Bair spacing (And thus make it easier to punish Bair) Imo it's best to grab him a lot, tech chase + Putting him off stage (He's really bad on the ledge). Oh and don't get grabbed yourself, Wolf has a neat little Dthrow chase. Oh and don't get hit by Fair a lot, it sends you up which could lead to followups (For example, charging Wolf's Fsmash and punishing the landing lag of an an airdodge/aerial/regular landing/whatever).

I don't know...play safe, play smart, you'll win. This matchup easily 100:0 in favor of the better player. Do what works.

A2ZOMG · Feb 2, 2009

Kinzer said:
God **** A2, you had three different people not including me refute your points that were aimed at me... I would feel bad to add more to the scorching.

But seriously, enough of this, G&W has already been discussed, there is nothing more to debate about, it's gone and done with, can we please fuggin talk about Wolf unless we're done with that?!

I've pretty much said most of what I needed to say about the matchup.

Ultimately I'm convinced the matchup is only winnable for Sonic if the G&W makes a lot of dumb mistakes taking Sonic the same way he would most other characters. This isn't a matchup that promotes approaching at any given time. However, once G&W gets the stock lead, it's pretty much over for Sonic as he should get outstalled, since he doesn't have the tools to deal with intelligent shieldcampers or edgecampers. Where as on the other hand, G&W can make a comeback if Sonic somehow does get the stock lead due to Sonic not having the tools to make up a completely reliable defensive game.

I think I've played messiahfreak2000 and Sly_Frye a number of times against their Sonics. They beat my Mario on the AiB ladder, but I 2stocked them with G&W and won sets against them.

vs Wolf, if he likes to blaster camp, PS his blaster if you're good at that, and depending on spacing, you probably can grab him. Unless I'm mistaken, something like N-air which lingers should hit him out of his recovery easily and give him a headache when he's offstage.

I wonder where Koskinator is, cause he does have a good Wolf.

Chis · Feb 2, 2009

A2ZOMG said:
I think I've played messiahfreak2000 and Sly_Frye a number of times against their Sonics. They beat my Mario on the AiB ladder, but I 2stocked them with G&W and won sets against them.

Irony no?

Kinzer · Feb 2, 2009

A2ZOMG said:
I've pretty much said most of what I needed to say about the matchup.

Ultimately I'm convinced the matchup is only winnable for Sonic if the G&W makes a lot of dumb mistakes taking Sonic the same way he would most other characters. This isn't a matchup that promotes approaching at any given time. However, once G&W gets the stock lead, it's pretty much over for Sonic as he should get outstalled, since he doesn't have the tools to deal with intelligent shieldcampers or edgecampers. Where as on the other hand, G&W can make a comeback if Sonic somehow does get the stock lead due to Sonic not having the tools to make up a completely reliable defensive game.

I think I've played messiahfreak2000 and Sly_Frye a number of times against their Sonics. They beat my Mario on the AiB ladder, but I 2stocked them with G&W and won sets against them.

This is exactly why we said G&W was a 65/35 matchup, nothing more, and nothing less.

Personally so much G&W experience has made this one of my easier matchups, but I have to be reasonable and say it like it should be.

Also come down to Vegas sometime and you can fight my Sonic, because I've gotten to the point I'll only Wi-Fi if you ask very politely or you beg me to do it, I hate it so much because it is a whole different game than offline. I may not the best representation, but I can sure as Hell still give you a run for your money.

ShadowLink84 · Feb 2, 2009

A2ZOMG said:
I've pretty much said most of what I needed to say about the matchup.[/quote[
Okay then go now? Considerinf you had three people argue on the same post you made it doesn't look very well for you.

A2ZOMG said:

Ultimately I'm convinced the matchup is only winnable for Sonic if the G&W makes a lot of dumb mistakes taking Sonic the same way he would most other characters.

Click to expand...

Wait what?
Thats like saying that the match is 100-0.
It is 65:35 for a reason and its not because a G&W would be making dumb mistakes.
Again you're assuming that in order for Sonic to win he ahs to play extremely well and the G&W user has to make alot of dumb mistakes.

matchups that are not winnable don't have such a ratio.

A2ZOMG said:

This isn't a matchup that promotes approaching at any given time. However, once G&W gets the stock lead, it's pretty much over for Sonic as he should get outstalled, since he doesn't have the tools to deal with intelligent shieldcampers or edgecampers.

Click to expand...

Why do ou keep posting things that are flat out untrue?
If Sonic could not deal with intelligent siheld campers whe would have a disadvantage against the majority of the cast because the defensie aspect of this game is so incredibly powerful.
Same thing when he faces DDD and Olimar yet at worst, he is at a slight disadvantage. Clearly he has methods of dealing with it considering those respective characters put the defensive game to such good use.

As for being outstalled, not really, G&W doesn't really stall very well. he does not have the speed to run away like Sonic, or the prjectile that Falco has.
If you try to edge camp, I can drop springs on you or simply edgehog you because I am that fast.
If you try to shield camp, I do have methods of getting past it nor is G&w going to sit there and shield camp all day, it will not work out for him being on the defensive in such a manner.
Is not the reason that Tl does well against G&W because he can deal with G&W's aerial zoning?

the reason Sonic has a disadvantage isn't because G&W has some incredibly awesome defensive game or that G&W can stall Sonic to death. That is hardly the case, the issue is that G&W can aerially zone him, breaks his aerial game and can hinder his approach game.
Why would G&w be on the defensive when he has smaller risks going on the offense against the hedgehog?

Not the silly notion that he outstalls him, especially considering Sonic's homing stall and his spinshotting and his dash speed.

A2ZOMG said:

Where as on the other hand, G&W can make a comeback if Sonic somehow does get the stock lead due to Sonic not having the tools to make up a completely reliable defensive game.

Click to expand...

Spinshot, dash speed?
Let aloen that again, you are ignoring the fact that G&W has no reliable method of forcing Sonic near him.
Thats like saying youll force ox to approach you in melee while you are using Link.
You'll force Sonic to come closer because typically, you'll have an easier time attacking and landing your hits.

in a nutshell offense wise, Sonic has a greater issue with G&W, not because of sheild camping because he does have methods of getting past it, especially considering G&W's ground game is not on the level of Olimar. It is because he hits Sonic where he works the most. The air, and can slow down his approaches and has an easier time on the offense.

Its basically a case where G&W can outdo Sonic in what he does (except for mindgames). He just does things on another level than Sonic and so, leaves Sonic with few tools to use. If the defensive aspect was such an issue concerning G&W, Sonic would have a disadvantage against the large majority of the cast, yet we know that this is not the cast. By which i mean a large majority.

A2ZOMG said:

I think I've played messiahfreak2000 and Sly_Frye a number of times against their Sonics. They beat my Mario on the AiB ladder, but I 2stocked them with G&W and won sets against them.

Click to expand...

No one gives a **** what you do against people on the AIB ladder because it is ONLINE.
I cannot see as to how you keep trying to bring it up, especially when the game behaves so much more differently and Sonic suffers that much more online.

messiahfreak2000 · Feb 2, 2009

Hey A2, wassup? i think it may be time to just be done with it. neither side is budging and heads seem a little hot right now.

side note: i'm not exactly the best sonic online or offline either, heh heh. i'm looking forward to playing again sometime.

da K.I.D. · Feb 2, 2009

if anything that shadow link says offends you. just ignore it, hes not really capable of discussing things in a non confrontational manner with people he doesnt agree with.

Kinzer · Feb 2, 2009

He's pretty much right though, wather you are hurt by his words or not.

What post # was this again?

We still might have a couple of more things to go over Wolf, but I think by this point it's either been said already, or nobody wants to speak.

Camalange · Feb 2, 2009

Well, I'm sure I won't say anything special, but I'll bring up a few quick points, maybe more of a summary.
I haven't had too much Wolf experience, but I've actually played them in a tourney environment and not on WiFi >_>

-Blaster is cake. I'll run and powershield that crap all day.
-Fmash, Dsmash, and Bair are probably his most annoying moves.
-Gimping him is suprisingly harder for me than Falco or Fox, lol

Erm...k...I got nuthin' >_>

Just wanted this to move along. Bowser is too too good.

Kinzer · Feb 2, 2009

Camalange said:
-Fmash, Dsmash, and Bair are probably his most annoying moves.

Sounds kind of familiar... ^_^

I suppose Wolf is harder on Wi-Fi since you can't react like you want to, I'm sure if I ever fought a Wolf offline, it would be kind of easier.

Sad how there are no tournament Wolfs though.

Camalange · Feb 2, 2009

Kinzer said:
Sounds kind of familiar... ^_^

lol, I was thinking the same when I typed it XD

I suppose Wolf is harder on Wi-Fi since you can't react like you want to, I'm sure if I ever fought a Wolf offline, it would be kind of easier.

Powershielding/reacting kinda gets ****ed up by Lag and getting caught in Fsmash "combos" is gay, lolol...but I find that Wolf kills himself on Lag Fi because I just do some offstage pressure. Wolfs rely so much on sweetspotting the ledge for recovery so they're like ZOMG NO and mess up...but yeah...

Man, LagFi really IS a totally different game from brawl, LOL

/WiFi Brawl

Kinzer · Feb 2, 2009

And with that, we chew off the discussion and move on to Bowser.

You may continue to discuss Wolf if anybody came in late. I'm sure there might still be some points left unsaid, however I want to move on as some people have very different opinions on this.

Bowser

Introduction:

Behaviour:

Commonly Used Moves:

How to Win:

Recommended Stages:

Matchup Summary:

Browny · Feb 2, 2009

its dead set easy to dodge his uair/usmash and utilt has pretty meh range. DI his dsmash HARD to the sides and you pretty much wont get killed off the top very often, if at all. I find when chasing him off stage, only attack from below if you want some extra % while hes trying to recover. his upb beats everything, eats spring and of course he can use his relatively quick fair to stop frontal attacks or even bowsercide you lol.

but my specific sonic v bowser experience is very limited, im only going off what I do vs him when ive played as snake or lucario :/

Kinzer · Feb 2, 2009

I'm going to make an export on the Bowser boards, they really wouldn't care I think, as it should give them something to do.

I'm gonig to go ahead and say that as much as fast characters SHOULD own the fatties, Bowser defies those biases, and makes the matchup even... perhaps either character could take an extra 5 points into their game, but it all depends on how well the Bowser player can handle constant pressure.

Terios the Hedgehog · Feb 2, 2009

Don't get grabbed!

Seriously. Don't do it man.

His jabs are a MAJOR pain. Between them and his fire breath he can limit you pretty well. If they're prepared for spinshot they can utilt you out of it and THAT hurts. That said he's a freaking fatty and can be ***** as such.

Bowser King · Feb 2, 2009

djbrowny said:
its dead set easy to dodge his uair/usmash and utilt has pretty meh range. DI his dsmash HARD to the sides and you pretty much wont get killed off the top very often, if at all. I find when chasing him off stage, only attack from below if you want some extra % while hes trying to recover. his upb beats everything, eats spring and of course he can use his relatively quick fair to stop frontal attacks or even bowsercide you lol.

but my specific sonic v bowser experience is very limited, im only going off what I do vs him when ive played as snake or lucario :/

Most bowsers will probably bait the uair and see the airdodge coming.

There's nothing more fun then pridicting an airdodge and then letting them have an uair

-

Bowser King

ROOOOY! · Feb 2, 2009

I have very strong opinions on this match-up, but I'm too busy to post them fully now.

All I'll say now is that an offensive Bowser is flat out ***** here.

I don't think a defensive one copes well either personally, though a lot better than a aggressive one. Whilst his "laggy" attacks are on the whole fast to come out, it's usually the ending lag that's bad. Sonic kind of thrives on this ending lag, and he can force Bowser into doing something very commitedly defensive, therefore making him pretty punishable.

I know I'm going to come up with a lot of disagreements, but I'm going to have to contribute something worthwhile tomorrow because I've been awake the last 40+ hours.

MrEh · Feb 2, 2009

djbrowny said:
its dead set easy to dodge his uair/usmash

Yes, the Usmash is easy to dodge. I hardly use it for that very reason. The only time I use it is if I predict a telegraphed aerial from the character I'm fighting. (Which should not be happening with Sonic anyway.) Either that or I'll use it to knock you off a platform, since the Usmash does that very well.

As for the Uair, Bowser should use it the same way that Zelda does. Bait the airdodge and throw it out. Yeah, it's not reliable, but it's still a good killing move.

and utilt has pretty meh range

That's not true. The Utilt has surprisingly long range. It outranges Meta's Dair, which is amazing. The Utilt>Usmash in terms of usefulness. Good range, good kill power, and it's fast. What's there not to love? ^^

DI his dsmash HARD to the sides and you pretty much wont get killed off the top very often, if at all.

The problem with this is that we won't be using the Dsmash. Dsmash to us is like the Homing attack to you. The best way to use it? Don't.

Also, Bowser gets vertical kills all the time. Utilt, Uair, and Fortress are all usable.

I'm gonig to go ahead and say that as much as fast characters SHOULD own the fatties, Bowser defies those biases, and makes the matchup even... perhaps either character could take an extra 5 points into their game, but it all depends on how well the Bowser player can handle constant pressure.

That's because compared to the other fatties of the game, Bowser is the most defensive oriented IMO. Most Bowser players literally live inside of their shields. They bait, they defend, and they punish.

Don't get grabbed!

Seriously. Don't do it man.

Sonic is one of those characters that Bowser can use Grab Releases on fairly well, so getting grabbed can become a big problem. Luckily, Bowser's grab range sucks and Sonic is hard to grab.

Avoiding the grab is important though, since Sonic is one of the characters in the game that Bowser can both ground release and jump release chaingrab, so you need to watch out for that. Bowser can chaingrab Sonic to the ledge, and if you jump out, you get hit by an Fair. If you don't jump out, you get hit by a Dtilt.

So yeah, he's right. Don't get grabbed.

His jabs are a MAJOR pain. Between them and his fire breath he can limit you pretty well. If they're prepared for spinshot they can utilt you out of it and THAT hurts. That said he's a freaking fatty and can be ***** as such.

Jabs are too good. They stop most head on approaches, and are near impossible to punish. Jabbing is one of Bowser's few safe moves, and you'll probably be seeing them a lot.

And as for the Utilt, it'll beat out all of Sonic's aerial moves. But then again, the Utilt beats out almost everything anyway.

All I'll say now is that an offensive Bowser is flat out ***** here.

Offensive Bowser doesn't exist. ^^

I don't think a defensive one copes well either personally

Fortress OoS. Repeat as necessary.

_clinton · Feb 2, 2009

Ah Bowser and Sonic...two characters that punish very well but do it very differently overall IMO

BTW Bowser = one of the sexiest characters in this game as far as canon goes (No one beats Wario in sexy)

So what is better for punishment? One who baits to hell and back and is a hard core young rebel who lives a fast pace "on the edge" or one who is just hard to break in general and is a sexy turtle?

BTW this song defines Bowser well IMO...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KUJE2xs-RE

ShadowLink84 · Feb 2, 2009

da K.I.D. said:
if anything that shadow link says offends you. just ignore it, hes not really capable of discussing things in a non confrontational manner with people he doesn't agree with.

Cry me a river and then drown in it.
It is a debate, we argue with fact and logic, not the experience you gained from being online.
I am not out to make friends in a debate, nor am I going to play nice either.

If you want someone to speak to you like a toddler, don't look to me for it.

concerning Bowser; I do not have much experience playing high level Bowsers. I think it is possibly neutral because of sonic's ability to pressure and his ability to keep his options open during an approach.
Bowser has great OOS options and a sweet number of options after a grab release. Soo yeah.

thecatinthehat · Feb 2, 2009

Spinshot bair alot in this matchup.

lrn to instant edgehug here as well.

after up throw, dont follow Bowser up into the air. I think his dair can come out before Sonic's SH u-air.

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