R.O.B. Match-Up Discussion Week #13: King Dedede

Go!

Dedede's advantages:
-Can kill ROB a lot earlier than ROB can kill him
-More Air dominance
-Waddles are good projectiles that can be used effectively in this fight (not for camping purposes, though)
-CG!

ROB's advantages:
-Can outcampt D3 by far, due to much better projectiles
-Good spacing options for when the D3 approaches (and he will)
-D3 has a harder time picking up the gyro than other characters
-Much better upB recovery

Advice:
The ROB can pressure the D3 off-stage with projectiles and with his aerials, if the D3 isn't careful he can get put into a bad position.

ROB's edgecamping abilities make the D3 work a lot harder for the hits, plus it negates the chain grab. Without ledgecamping, the D3 has the advantage in the matchup easily. With it, it's pretty near even.

D3's bair just about beats anything you guys can throw so don't challenge him to an air fight, it probably won't go well. You guys have so much better projectiles, go with that instead.

Spot dodge -> Dsmash is great against the aggressive penguin players but don't get too predictable with it. If you do, it's a free grab for the King and you know what that means...

Watch out for random Gordos. If you see them coming, SHIELD them. Their motion and speed can be deceptive so spot-dodging is not your best option. If in the air, you're gonna have to air dodge it or get above/below it. These WILL kill you at a very low % (I think for ROB it's in the 80's), so you don't want to take chances with this.

Good CPs:
Japes, Rainbow Cruise, Battlefield

Camp camp camp. Japes gives you guys a great little area to force the D3 to approach. Tiny platform with very little options to land on or assault. Rainbow cruise is also bad since you guys have great recovery options here. D3's recovery is decent but can easily be taken advantage of here, especially with your projectiles. Battlefield shouldn't be your first CP but if the other two aren't there, it's not a bad option. ROB's laser can be angled through platforms and can make trouble for the D3.

Watch out for/Ban:
Delfino, Castle Seige

Hate these stages like you hate rabies. Many of the Delfino transformations are flat AND have walls, thus getting rid of the ledge-camping option and give the D3 so many free kill options it's scary. If taken here, run away for as long as possible during the bad transformations. If possible, don't even go near the walls. Seige's 2nd transformation has a walk-off, and during transformations the D3 has some weird-*** dthrow spike that you need to keep an eye out for. Again, just camp and try and stay on the platforms for the 2nd stage and you should be ok.

Matchup Ratio:
If the ROB plays smart, its somewhere around 50:50 or 55:45 D3's favor. If the ROB tries to challenge the D3 on the stage or in the air, 60:40 easy.

That's about all I could think of, off the top of my head.

Everything you posted seems good to me. I actually never thought of ledgecamping, so I guess I already learned something from the thread.

I think the matchup is 55-44 or 51-48 DDD.

I'm gonna just copy and paste what I said when we did the matchup on our own forums:

"In theory, it should be a huge advantage--we win in the air, we have the CG, I believe we're heavier, etc. etc.

In practice, I feel like we don't. We really can't gimp ROB (honestly, who can?) and a smart camper won't even let us get near. No reflector means we have to be on guard for the projectiles at all times. The only ROB I play against is extremely predictable but still does pretty well."

Also, I ****ing hate your downsmash.

ROB NEEDS (!!!!!) to camp as much as possible.
If the Dedede has excellent perfect shield timing, then neither of ROB's projectiles will work, but even if they never hit, they always force Dedede to approach, which is how ROB wins this one.


I'll briefly address what happens if ROB approaches.
1. ROB attacks
2. Dedede doesn't get hit
3. ROB gets grabbed
4. ROB takes 60%
5. Dedede vs. ROB becomes 65:35 Dedede's favor, or more.
5. ?????
6. PROFIT!!

If anyone wants to disagree with that point, then go ahead, I'll be happy to debate.



If Dedede approaches (assume he has to):

Space as well as you can, with as many different moves as you can. Stay the F*** away from our grab, which really just means space perfectly all the time.

Spot dodge to Down Smash is good, HOWEVER, you absolutely HAVE to mix it up, because we can easily shield the entire thing then grab you. Change the timing slightly, and grab us as often as possible after you learn how to predict the individual Dedede's movements.


There are basically two main "stages" I see when I fight ROB. The first is the long-range fight, which simply involves the ROB spacing and projectile'ing, and the Dedede trying to get to the second stage.

The second stage is the close quarters fight, which involves a huge amount of prediction, at least when two players who know each other well go at it. This stage is all about ROB spot dodging, Down Smashing, grabbing, and Dedede just trying to get a grab. This stage doesn't last long, because as soon as either player gets a hit, it goes back to the first stage.

If Dedede gets a grab in either stage, ROB needs to have a plan to increase the difficulty of the chaingrab. If you use proper DI AND spam Jab/spot dodge/whatever's fastest in your arsenal, then ROB becomes VERY difficult to chaingrab. No matter what you do, a frame-perfect chaingrab is impossible to escape, but struggling is still vitally important.
If Dedede completes the chaingrab, you're likely to go off the stage, which starts a third stage of fighting.

The third stage is ALSO all about prediction, as it is with any edgeguard attempt. ROB does have an excellent recovery, but a good Dedede still has plenty of options for at least doing damage while you're off stage. If Dedede Forward Throw's you, use DI so that you fly at a very high angle. From there, use jumps or Up-B to go off the top of the screen until you're over the stage. Dedede doesn't have a strong vertical game, so being above him is relatively safe. If you are forced under the stage, it is almost always best to just go under the stage. The third stage is ROB's least favorite, because of Dedede's strong aerial game.



Endgame:
Dedede will go for the kill one of a few ways.

1. Up Tilt.
It's the best individual move in our arsenal, and kills you around 120% reliably. I don't know the exact numbers. Just space like crazy when you get to high percents.

2. Forward/Back Throw.
Fresh Forward Throw (at the end of an average stage, with good DI) kills you around 250%, 270% to be safe. You're all thinking "WTF, that's ridiculous, why would you even list that?? It's like saying Jab kills at 440%!!!1!1" I'm saying it because it'll happen. If you space like crazy, don't get gimped, and predict most everything we do, then you can live that long. It becomes totally relevent.
Fresh Back Throw (at the WRONG end of an average stage, with DI that makes you go almost horizontal) kills a little earlier, like 220-230%. Here I assume terrible DI because the DI you want to use for his Forward Throw is exactly the opposite for his Back Throw, so if you predict the Forward, you'll fly horizontally on the Back.

3. Other crap
Dedede can be unpredictable when it comes to killing. A random Forward Smash, slightly unpredictable Down Tilt, a Dededecide, or a stage spike can all kill at random times. There's not much I can say here. Good luck!



Stages:
I'm not too good with stage selection, so I can't tell you what works and what doesn't. I do know that Jungle Japes is one of my least favorite stages, so if you can pick that one, you might want to. I also know that Yoshi's Island and Pictochat are decent in theory because ROB can't go under the stage.



I probably didn't cover absolutely EVERYTHING about this matchup, so feel free to ask about anything specific.




SUMMARY:

Camp liek ur ub3rg4y, don't get grabbed, stay on the stage.
My opinion of the matchup:

55:45 or 50:50 in King Dedede's Favor.

The above are mostly true. And don't be deceived in to trying to upsmash his recovery... I'm sure it's possible but it's hard and risky. Especially with the extended hurtbox and lag. If you miss it in a tight spot it'll probably be your death.

I would also recommend Norfair for a potential counter pick. May work better than Battlefield. I don't know.

This matchup is dumb I picked up GnW as a second for it.

ZOM~B said:

The above are mostly true. And don't be deceived in to trying to upsmash his recovery... I'm sure it's possible but it's hard and risky. Especially with the extended hurtbox and lag. If you miss it in a tight spot it'll probably be your death.

I would also recommend Norfair for a potential counter pick. May work better than Battlefield. I don't know.

This matchup is dumb I picked up GnW as a second for it.

Click to expand...

Actually, Usmash tends to work a lot better as punishment if the D3 decides not to cancel the upB... I mean yes, it can be dangerous but getting the timing down on it is worth it to punish.

Norfair as a CP is alright, but the thing is the stage's platform-arrangement encourages aerial fighting which D3 is great at. I've used it as a CP against plenty of people, trust me, if the D3 knows the stage well enough and how to use it, it can be dangerous. But it's a lot safer than Delfino and Seige. XP

I agree with most of what's been said except a few things.

1) RC isn't that great a CP for us as D3 has a few spots for wall infinite and we're not very good at gimping recoveries that are coming near vertically (at least not with a wall to stage spike). Overall, this stage just doesn't give us much in the way of an advantage like a CP should.

2) Norfair? I used to think it was good, but it's not. D3 does beat us in the air generally and this stage promotes that situation too much.

3) USmash that ****er out of his up-b every chance you get. Don't sit there charging it because that's too obvious, but learn the timing and just do an uncharged on at the right time. Worst comes to worst he cancels it and tries to DI away, you can get a grab or FSmash in depending on how early/late they canceled it.


Now for stuff I'm personally adding..

Sudai likes the number 54:45 in D3's favor.

LEDGE CAMP HIS ARSE!! > : O

His only good options when we ledge camp are DAirs over the ledge, stealing the ledge from us, or running off and trying for a BAir spike/swallowcide. That's less options than some characters we like to ledge camp against, it works. Just learn to read what they're going to do and not be predictable with your gheyness.

Everything else has been said..

Kappuchu~

Thanks Nikz. Just suggesting it because I know that's where I'd take a DDD with GnW for sure. If you really want to play an aggressive ROB against DDD it's probably your best though since it wrecks his CG. It kind of ruins the camp game though.

And I don't get to play a lot of DDD's in friendlies sadly, so I haven't picked up the timing there...

I should've been more specific : To risky to do if you don't know the timing. It's at least a little awkward.

Tough because ROB has SOOOOO much of a better long range game and D3 has SOOOOO much better of a close range game. Each are not totally useless outside of their comfort zones, but if they want a guaranteed win, they need to get within the safe zone fast.

Depends a lot on playstyle and crap. 50:50

Well this matchup is 55-45.

R.O.B can get chaingrabbed so he gets owned... BUT he can outcamp DeDeDe easily, R.O.B can somehow camp DeDeDe in order to not grabbed.

R.O.B's glide toss gets pretty danger later on, DeDeDe can't do nothing about Gyro & Laz0r spam, R.O.B can't gimp DeDeDe, He just can't, and infanc I think DeDeDe can pressure R.O.B offstage pretty nicely with Bair & Dair.

Don't get grabbed LOL!!

Basically, ROB hates it because of the chain grab, D3 hates it because ROB's projectiles are better than his. So, all you have to do is camp him as ROB and it can give D3 a lot of trouble. Pillows are left useless because of how slow they are and how ROB's lasers go through them and stop them from moving. Just stay away and you will be fine! Otherwise, you're getting a chaingrab into a down tilt.

VAYVAY SIGHTING! If you DI down off-stage you'll grab the ledge before a DTilt can hit you out of the DThrow. They should just be using FTilt instead or end the chain with an FThrow, though.

But 250%? I've never been killed by Dedede's throws, even playing campy and avoiding the UTilt I've always been killed by his BAir way before his throws would ever kill me. (Consider that ROB is often near the edges of the stage anyway, either by choice or by being CGed off the edge.) His FAir can also surprise occasionally, much like ROB's BAir, and IIRC even his vertical aerials kill before 200% if you don't SDI out of them.

My turn to chime in:

RC sure isn't my first choice to CP the fatty. His horrendous mobility makes the rising portion hard on him but the ship also greatly works in his favor and he can walkoff-CG you on the upper part of the stage if you're not careful. It's a mixed bag.

I actually like Delfino. The only truly dangerous transformation is the bowl with the stairs, which lacks any platforms or terrain breaks to avoid the walkoff-CG. Most of the walls are easily avoided by camping the proper parts of the stage and forcing him to approach through your projectiles (as usual) and don't forget that ROB is no slouch at abusing walls too, if you get the chance. More than half the fight is spent in transition anyway, which is very kind to ROB with its fly-through floor and spacious platform layouts.

JJ is obviously the best CP. Camping the side platforms isn't a super-easy route to victory, though, his BAir poking at ROB's feet is quite annoying and it's the perfect height to lob Waddles. :/ But they're still good, preventing Dedede from approaching on the ground and threatening a grab, and his UTilt is nullified by the high ceiling. ROB can also play under the platforms much better, Dedede gets hosed by the water.

Norfair is being argued for and against, but what about the other Metroid stages? You know, in case JJ is banned. Brinstar is too small for good camping but he can hardly CG there anyway and it gives you a fly-through floor, which can also be split for Camp City if you so please. Orpheon seems like a pretty decent stage to take him for various reasons. Anyone else care to offer opinions on the matter?

I agree with Nik's ratio numbers and post is finished. *boing*

Not much else to say I guess.

I take ROBs to the same place I take everyone who can be chaingrabbed: Pokemon Stadium 1. The neutral part's platforms are basically negligible, which is generally advantageous for Dedede (though in this matchup it could be neutral). The Fire and Rock transformations both have walls and the Water transformation has a pseudo-wall in the windmill. The Rock transformation also impedes ledgecamping somewhat. On top of that, the weird ledges are more advantageous to Dedede than ROB.

Seriously, against DDD, you have to fight the campiest fight ever. I try to avoid DDD's grab range at all costs, and camping is the best way.

Ugh... DDD... that mutha-******!
I just can't get this matchup right. I keep playing DDDs in tourneys for some reason. I can beat the scrubs, but the ones who know what they're doing destroy me.
Just a few notes that I feel if I knew before my matches, I would have fared better:

• On Japes, you can camp him on the platforms, you just have to watch out for the waddle dees. I know I mentioned this before a while back, but I forget what the sage ROBs said to do to combat the waddle-dee toss (please post it in this thread if you remember what I mean!)
• Ledgecampers beware-DDDs bair stagespikes. I wish I thought of that before I lost a stock.
• DDDs Swallow is the gayest move ever. You cant break out of it in time to prevent swallocide, even at 0%! (Please...PLEASE tell me I'm wrong!) Watch out for the swallow before you try to fight him offstage.

These are things that most of you already know, but no one really mentions. As someone who had no xp in the matchup, this is stuff I would have liked to know beforehand... so anyone who doesn't have matchup experience...know those tips well I guess.

Laser through Waddle Dees while they're in the air or as D3's pulling them. If laser isn't charged, just shoot your gyro so when it bounces off them, it lands in the water.

As for swallowscides, you need to mash faster, I remember breaking out in time at 50% after being pulled off the stage.

Do you mean you were both on the stage, he swallowed you, and then jumped off? Or was he falling and he just swallowed you on the way down?
What I mean is, would it still work if Im being stupid and not looking at DDD when I try and edgeguard him offstage and he swallows me at or about stage level (heightwise of course)?

Yes. The time at 50% the D3 was falling past the stage and had fastfalled before I was actually sucked up.

Ok. You have no idea how good it feels to know that. Thanks much. One more question... everyones talking about timing the Usmash on DDDs Up-b... do you guys mean those few frames at the top of his arc, or can you actually catch him as hes falling towards you(the part that spikes)

You can catch him as he's falling. Awkward timing, but it's doable.

Thanks again. For the record, its completely awesome to be online at the same time as Sudai. Quick responses ftw

its rather doable, the range of rob's upsmash does help punish D3's upB. you know whats hard tho? when D3 can powershield almost all of your projectile

Ya that's been a prob for me since my brother seconds DDD against my ROB. He knows as soon as my head jerks back im lasering, and he can shield it every time. The only time I really get good projectile spam in is if I charge a gyro, then laser>gyro>laser.

That's what you are supposed to be doing anyway. Your gyro should either always be fully charged, or on the ground or your hand waiting for a glide toss. And if it is on the ground, it should be for a good reason.

55:45 Dededes favor VERY slightly

As long as DDDs far enough away and my gyros fully charged, I tend to wavebounce my gyro for the added unpredictability. Plust, the wavebounce itself limits the time DDD has to react.

ROB vs Dedede might be the most annoying matchup in the entire ****ing game.
On one side you have ROB throwing Gyro's and not appraoching becuase you WILL get shield grabbed. On the other side you have Dedede perfect shielding everything you throw at him. This game just ends up a waiting game to see who is bored enough to actually approach. If you are the one who gets bored first, I suggest you approach ONLY with Bair and rising up b Nairs. this will prevent you from getting grabbed and can supply some good shield pressure.

COUNTERPICK BRINSTAR

45:55 Dedede advantage

this matchup is 55:45 DDD , now rob's camping game can halt a bit DDDs approaches in this matchup , in this matchup I usually don't try to run to him trying to get the grab, I just go to the air and try to approach from there. the frikkin laser and gyro setups are annoying but approaching from the air get the job done but if they expect then u have to vary ur landings. I do more later here
I do to play ROB mainers like dairy basis.

PS: I am talking in DDD's perspective.

Does D3's Bair outprioritize everything ROB has?

Cause I get destroyed by D3's Bair.

Camp the hell out of DDD. Please. >.>

Yeah, but sometimes the D3 I face unleashes a barrage of Bairs that juggle me to infinity.

The question is, does ROB have anything that outprioritizes D3's Bair?

perfectly spaced bair or nair(but you would like to save it as a kill move) if you're directly under it, a u-air would suffice.

or just powershield

seriously why would you get too close? camp! if it gets too close get away

Yeah, my mistake >_>

Lesson learned.

well...it's not so much that Fu, his bair-priority really shines and destroys when you're being edgeguarded and when you're trying to get back onto the stage safely. His bairs last a long enough time that unless you time your dodge perfectly [like, right when the bair comes out, which means you have to predict it perfectly] by the time you come out of the dodge, you'll get hit. And even if you don't, DDD has like 8,000 jumps and he can do a rising bair with the jump [which you'll dodge] and then a falling bair as he follows you

getting back on the stage, it's pretty ridiculous to try and do this safely. All he has to do is be patient and wait to see what you're going to do.

i have much to learn.

fly under the stage?...

Or Uair?

Or both?

i agree with toasty there with those multiple jumps and bair's to hinder recovery.

to me, its much harder to recover low against D3 compared recovering high

against d3, if you're forced to recover low, if you properly time/space your nair, it'll go through whatever he has... keep in mind only d3's hammer is disjoint, so any other option he has will leave him open to your disjoint attacks (hence the bair suggestions)... if a d3 is chasing you, he only has 2 "defense" options... throw a move out or air-dodge... if you can space properly, you can eliminate one option and force the other... do a rising nair, and you'll be through and back on the stage before the d3 can retaliate

this being said, hard to do lol... i find against an overly aggro d3, I'll top/laser them until they grab the edge, then make my approach as the invincibility frames wear off, that way he has even less options in terms of ways to attack

once a d3 is off the stage, throwing out a waddle is basically suicide (or at least a terrible option lol) so you can safely spam your projectile a couple times to zone him

... so yeah... camp him hard, even when you're forced off the edge lol

Lazor + Top camp only.
Don't get grabbed (lolz)
When u recover, dont be predictable... DDD upB spike is hard to pull off but we love to use it against robs and snakes.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWQVcevlo7s
3:44.

Dont fight DDD in the air :[.



Oh... dtilt, sh fair screws up DDD's spacing. or at least racks up some easy damage while hes trying to close the distance


55:45 DDD's favor. Even if you play campy, its SO HARD for ROB to KO DDD