Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

Alright, re discuss Peach now please.

(Steals the 5,000th reply)

Space Space Space

Bair Bair Bair

Utilt, up-angled F-smash, sometimes up-angled Ftilt if she's ever grounded or floating low above-ground but idk if peaches are supposed to be doing that or not.

what the heck do we do with turnips?? I mean, when I catch them, they seem useless to sonic because they're so slow + floaty, I can't seem to make traps with them.

peach seems good at controlling space, she's like this floating fortress wall thing lol.

What the heck is an Up-angled Up-Smash, Infzy?

As for me and Turnips, I either get hit with them or I don't, they're so useless for Sonic since they travel slowly and do not do any damage (don't mention stuff like stichfaced turnips because they come like once a set match at most, anymore and you/the Peach player are probably lucky/unlucky depending on what happens), and if you do happen to catch them the best to do is just get rid of them and not put yourself in any punishable situation like glide-tossing forward and right into Peach's grab.

For some Reason, Homing Attack works when they aren't in a neutral position to punish it, like floating back for recovery. I am not lying to you when I say that in my last losers match in my last tournament, I actually got a KILL with Homing Attack on Vegas' signature Peach player. Of course you would still be a fool to even mini-spam HA seeing as how Peach can just whack you out of it with anything like Nair.

Kinzer said:

What the heck is an Up-angled Up-Smash, Infzy?

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srsly every time I try to say up-angled Fsmash, it comes out as..... yeah

wharrrrgarrrrrrrbl

Homing attack as a recovery is suidcide. I don't see what's so hot about up smash. I can't see why Peach wont simply dair you out of it, I mean it barely has any invisibility frames to begin with. Turnips, glide toss towards Peach, and if see shields it, grab her. Yeah, he jabs are really sighworthy, 2 frames :/, makes her harder to punish. Shield the first hit and grab before the other hit.

This match up bothers me a lot. I keep changing my mind constantly but at the end of the day, if Peach plays really campy...what exactly can Sonic do?

Sonic's game is heavily punishment based. See a whiffed attack? Fire away. But the thing with Peach is that her aerials have ridiculous autocancelling and she can follow up with her 2 frame jab on a lot of things. Also, because she'll be in the air most of the time and due to the fact she can stay there, don't expect yourself to be grabbing her much

Turnips are...useless actually unless Sonic is pretty far away. Sonic is simply too fast for them to be of huge use. Sonic can either dodge them, perfect shield them or catch them. Not to mention he can punish the start up lag

The thing that really makes this match up is that Peach outprioritizes Sonic in almost every way. Peach's Nair will stop Sonic's spin dashes and with the ability to ground Float, she can knock a speeding Sonic out of them. Sonic's Up + B is so incredibly punishable, especially if a Dair is used straight after it. Peach can get a lot of things in, most noticabley an Up Smash. And Homing Attack...well, if you like Nairs and Up Smashes in your face, be my guest. Homing Attack is an incredibly bad idea. Peach has to screw up horribly for you to gimp her with it

Sonic's recovery is also very linear. He's very unsafe in the air vs Peach. Spinshot is just asking for a Nair in the face (<3 you cat) and one you use your Up + B...where do you go? Peach can very easily follow Sonic and since he's been so high up in the air, it's a free chance to pull up a Turnip and chase him, even if they aren't very useful in this match. Sonic doesn't auto snap to the ledge either so if he Up + B's near the ledge and goes over it, Peach can Up Smash him or if he's just below, she could Nair/F Smash him...but if he attacks, he risks not being able to grab onto the ledge or getting grabbed/air tripped (very unlikely to happen)

I haven't even mentioned Peach's Dair. This the main issue that bugs me - what can Sonic actually do against Peach's Dair?

Sonic has spaced Bairs, Up Tilt, up angled F Smash and Up Smash. Up tilt is really very crap - most of the time it won't work unless Peach is falling towards you. Up angled F Smash shouldn't hit Peach if she's Floating correctly (I think) and Up Smash....ehhh, most of the time Peach's Dair will get in first, or the moves will clash. That only leaves spaced Bairs. I know I've hit Chis out of them by spacing Floating Dair back. Sonic has to get above Peach's Dair for the Bair to actually work. And that's not the easiest thing to do when Peacch has the ability to move back and forth. I think Peach's Fair has just a little tiny bit more range than Sonic's Bair (I've experienced them clashing before though) and if Sonic's really predictable with them, Peach can F Tilt him out of them. Peach just simply doesn't have to approach Sonic

So Sonic's only realistic option vs her Dair is his Bair and you have to space absolutely perfectly or you'll miss/get hit by Dair and even then, if Peach floats out the way...what can Sonic follow up with that Peach won't stop?

Of course, people aren't perfect so you'll get Bairs in because regardless, it is a very good anti aerial move against Peach and it's vital in this match up. Also another very important thing is the up angled F Smash to knock Peach off stage when she's recovering. If you see a Peach recovering agressivly and attempting to hit you with a Fair whilst trying to get back on stage, hit them with a spaced F Smash. The results are fantastic and Chis obliterates me 99% of the time if I do this. Peach is light so if you get an F Smash in at around 130% give or take, goodbye Peach

D Smash is also good for killing when Peach tries to airdodge away from you since it covers a fair bit of ground. Don't forget spaced Bairs as kill moves as well...but that'll probably be stale anyway

Unfortunetly, both sides have a very big kill issue. Landing kills moves on either side is very very hard if both sides space well and play defensivly. Peach's main kill moves are her Fair, F Smash and Up Smash. Up Smash is very hard to land unless Sonic does something predictable and punishable and the other two aren't very strong/are hard to land

Never approach Peach from above due to her Up Tilt/Up Smash. Her Bair will trade hits with yours and if she's close, her's comes out faster and can also be a decent kill move as well. Her Fair is arguably her best kill move so she'll most likely be trying to get that in when you're at high percents

I realise I sound very pesimistic but if you ask me, Peach doesn't have to approach. And Sonic has very few approaches against Peach. I would put this match up at 65:35. If Peach does it right, she'll mostly be doing her spaced Floating Dairs at head height, pulling up Turnips only when she can and punishing Sonic on what he does. I realise I'm probably not right but from my perspective, Peach has a lot going for her against Sonic. This match will be very very very long, mainly because of killing issues


One last thing - I want someone to look into uses of the vertical spin dash jump vs Peach. It goes right over her and her Dair if she's Floating at head height. You could possibly jump over and Bair her? She does have plenty of options to counter this though so watch out

Peach has Nair. We lose. Srsly. It's TOOOOO good.

I'm not sure every Peach player is going to hardcore camp, but I guess we should start telling this to everybody who plays Peach to start doing so.

Seriously a lot of Sonic's matchups aren't as bad as they could be because nobody does it right.

As for the match going for a really long time, Sonic can play Gay back, just run to the other side of the stage and/once you catch no to your opponent's habits, it's pretty annoying. The last match of the set was almost decided by the time (and I would've won) until I got that DSmash kill off... yay for Rolldodge/happy Peaches. At least she isn't too fast or mobile to get around Sonic once he gets inside.

I would buffer a Fair from a run if the Peach isn't in the floating neutral position, it works okay I suppose.

Spring also works out of Dair, but of course always use SDI to get out of it to make sure the Spring projectile hits and Peach doesn't swat it away with her Uair. Usually if Peach doesn't get hit by a Bair Sonic can always buffer a shield since if done right hasno landing lag. FSmash mindgames are always lulzy, I actually got Peapo to think I was gonig to release my FSmash so he could punish it, next thing he knew, he mistimes/mispaces and goes flying to the blastzone at 100-110%. Peach is very vulnerable offstage of they recovery via predictable ADing/freefalling or floating back, pick your choice of any aerial (not Uair) and Homing Attack. Probably the reason HA works so well against a floating Peach recovering is because if they risk getting out of said floating, they lose their jump and it would mean death not to get a hit from Sonic. SSmash probably works well because Peachs have to land sometime after their float too, and if you catch on to their habits like empty floating, then by all means go for it.

peaches in general like to float backwards to avoid an an attack and than move forward an punish. many of us do the same thing when we fox trot backwards with sonic. one good move we have to beat this tactic is to over shoot your fairs

if you run up to fair, and you run farther forward than you normally would, you can hit peach even if she tries to float backwards.

neither character can combo the other too well, so in my exp. it might be best to lay back and try to beat peach on individual hits. cause if you do that enough, you can deffo win the match.

that does however, require you to be a much better player than your opponent

Doesn't every one of Sonic's matchups?

Shoot, if we all went ahead and mained any other character, we would like at least get them to jump one spot higher guaranteed.

/brag.

Rickerdy-doo-da-day said:

at the end of the day, if Peach plays really campy...what exactly can Sonic do?

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Ppl say this about a lot of matchups though..... but in the end I haven't really seen it happen much; because I don't think it's quite as easy as you make it sound. Sonic does decent at applying pressure to campers; they don't feel safe camping because even little mistakes like pulling out turnips at the wrong time can lead to punishment. I think Peach vs. Sonic is a very interesting momentum / space-control battle; their fluidity around the stage is just as important as the moveset interactions when they finally meet.

Rickerdy-doo-da-day said:

Also, because she'll be in the air most of the time and due to the fact she can stay there, don't expect yourself to be grabbing her much

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But she can't just stay there. Peach has to come down, and this is something I've definitely noticed when I fight peaches. (Mind you my experience is very limited, but still). Peach starts floating, so you start running in+out of range, making use of our dash-dancey mixups etc. Eventually she comes down, and this is a real bother to her if she's floating as high as she's "supposed" to be, to be able to safely avoid our ground moves and Dair us.

Rickerdy-doo-da-day said:

Turnips are...useless actually unless Sonic is pretty far away. Sonic is simply too fast for them to be of huge use. Sonic can either dodge them, perfect shield them or catch them. Not to mention he can punish the start up lag

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Punishing the turnip lag and being able to outrun them well definitely help, but the turnips are still useful for Peach's stage control. Without turnips, how is Peach supposed to be camping us?? The thing is they limit the ways we move around with spindashes and w/e (since I see spindashes as more of a movement option than an attack).

I thought you aren't supposed to shield (even perfect-shield) turnips, since that's part of the trap they're usually setting; throw turnip, float in and shield-pressure or grab.

Rickerdy-doo-da-day said:

Sonic doesn't auto snap to the ledge either so if he Up + B's near the ledge and goes over it, Peach can Up Smash him or if he's just below, she could Nair/F Smash him...but if he attacks, he risks not being able to grab onto the ledge or getting grabbed/air tripped (very unlikely to happen)

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None of that seems unique to Peach, though. How does she do a better job of this than other characters?

Rickerdy-doo-da-day said:

I haven't even mentioned Peach's Dair. This the main issue that bugs me - what can Sonic actually do against Peach's Dair?

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We SDI up? often leading to punishment from the Sonic, if only via spring (although I think Nair/Fair can work as well). For sure her Dair is great at shield-pressure and is the major threat when she's floating and weaving in+out above us. But it really doesn't seem game-breaking to me; it's just a move, and a multi-hit escapable one at that. If Peach is landing Dairs, then we should be landing up-tilts as well IMO. She can weave with her float, but we can just outrun her lol.

Rickerdy-doo-da-day said:

So Sonic's only realistic option vs her Dair is his Bair and you have to space absolutely perfectly or you'll miss/get hit by Dair and even then, if Peach floats out the way...what can Sonic follow up with that Peach won't stop?

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More bairs. Srsly, bair bair bair. The spacing isn't that hard to safely bair, afaict; since Peach's Fair has short range in comparison.

Rickerdy-doo-da-day said:

Of course, people aren't perfect so you'll get Bairs in because regardless, it is a very good anti aerial move against Peach and it's vital in this match up. Also another very important thing is the up angled F Smash to knock Peach off stage when she's recovering. If you see a Peach recovering agressivly and attempting to hit you with a Fair whilst trying to get back on stage, hit them with a spaced F Smash. The results are fantastic and Chis obliterates me 99% of the time if I do this. Peach is light so if you get an F Smash in at around 130% give or take, goodbye Peach

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yup yup yup!

Rickerdy-doo-da-day said:

One last thing - I want someone to look into uses of the vertical spin dash jump vs Peach. It goes right over her and her Dair if she's Floating at head height. You could possibly jump over and Bair her? She does have plenty of options to counter this though so watch out

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This does sound very interesting. Does VSDJ really go through her Dair, like between hits? (or clash with it?) That'd be preeetty sweet.

Rick, I'm the Sonic you fight the most right? So is your match up experience based on me? :/

It seems that understanding the rythem of a Peach's style is key, because for the reasons we have all stated, this is a hit and run style match we will be running. We can take a lot of damage from peach before she kills us, and its usually is from fair, so avoiding that move is the number priority. do that, and you balance out the fact that she can rack damage better than sonic, IMO.

In addition, all good peaches have mastered the art of retreating aerials. the fair is most common as an edgegaurd or to catch your landing. bair and nair is more common offstage. Uair is probably least used IMO. dair... why are you under peach in the first place.


Sonic has the movement to avoid most of her aerials. though this is true, hers jabs can be used to prevent an immediate counterattack.

The winner is the one who is better at spacing. I try to fight peach by making her be more offensive. A strategy I use to help in this is to spin shot or SDVJ at her, only to spring outside of her range, then dair away. note that i have no true intention of attacking her this way, but I intend to use this to keep my high speed movement and use the falling spring to distract her and impede forward progress, if only a little. if spaced poorly, she can block the spring and probably still punish, but if i put the falling spring a tilts distance away, she wouldn't have time to reach me, due to me running back after the auto canceled spring. this is my way of disrupting her offense when she is floating. of coarse, i try to mix up when i do it with fakes and other things so she will have a harder time punishing it.

i also tend to use ftilt more in this matchup, again, just out side of its range, were she to move forward to attack, she would get hit/ block it. If she plans to attack right after the aerial that i spaced myself away from, the ftilt can clank / hit her.

Hyphen Smash seems to work decent against peach players because it catches them offgaurd during thier float routines. randomly throwing one out should work for disrupting thier offence.

most of this is setup by useing a ton of fakes. I feel that once my opponent starts to use dash attack more, that means my stratedgy is working. but if you havent worked on spacing in a while, this kind of strat may not work too well. either way, the match gets longer because of it. in antcase i dont care because IMO sonic playing a peach by being aggro is just stupid.

Chis said:

Rick, I'm the Sonic you fight the most right? So is your match up experience based on me? :/

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Mostly, plus my own Sonic knowledge and other Sonic's I've fought

infzy said:

Ppl say this about a lot of matchups though..... but in the end I haven't really seen it happen much; because I don't think it's quite as easy as you make it sound. Sonic does decent at applying pressure to campers; they don't feel safe camping because even little mistakes like pulling out turnips at the wrong time can lead to punishment. I think Peach vs. Sonic is a very interesting momentum / space-control battle; their fluidity around the stage is just as important as the moveset interactions when they finally meet.

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Peach also applies pressure very well. Her Turnips aren't the fastest of projectiles but if Sonic's far away, she's free to pull one up. My point is that at the end of the day, Peach doesn't have to approach and if you ask me, this is a problem for Sonic. If Sonic gets close, she can start up a Float and try to get a Dair in. If he's spacing Bairs, she can move out the way. Your right in that this is a space control battle because it's so incredibly hard to get a kill on either side and if both sides play defensivly, getting a hit in could be tricky as well

infzy said:

But she can't just stay there. Peach has to come down, and this is something I've definitely noticed when I fight peaches. (Mind you my experience is very limited, but still). Peach starts floating, so you start running in+out of range, making use of our dash-dancey mixups etc. Eventually she comes down, and this is a real bother to her if she's floating as high as she's "supposed" to be, to be able to safely avoid our ground moves and Dair us.

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If you dash dance, you'll just eat a Dair. Peach can very easily follow you with a Floating Dair. If she misses...oh well big deal, land again and start up another Float. If Sonic is close by, she can jab him away or just jump away

Peach can stay in the air for around 2-3 seconds. Doesn't sound long but believe me it is. What ground moves has Sonic got to stop her anyway? She could use a Nair or Fair or Dair whilst she's falling to stop whatever ground moves Sonic is trying to use. Her Fair will outrange most things provided she's moving back away from Sonic which is what she should be doing. If Sonic tries to follow up and grab her for example, she can jab him away

I find it best that she Floats at around Sonic's head height, just out of the way of where the majority of Sonic's ground moves miss

infzy said:

Punishing the turnip lag and being able to outrun them well definitely help, but the turnips are still useful for Peach's stage control. Without turnips, how is Peach supposed to be camping us?? The thing is they limit the ways we move around with spindashes and w/e (since I see spindashes as more of a movement option than an attack).

I thought you aren't supposed to shield (even perfect-shield) turnips, since that's part of the trap they're usually setting; throw turnip, float in and shield-pressure or grab.

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It depends really. I was a bit vague, sorry about that. Most of the time, Peach will be pulling up Turnips when she's a safe distance away. For Sonic, that's fairly far away. And there's nothing wrong with perfect shielding them if she's Glide Tossing them at him. I normally pull up a Turnip when Sonic's far away and try to get some Floating Dairs in and use the Turnip to cover me. If it looks like she's trying to use the Turnip to cover a follow up, just run out of it's way

infzy said:

None of that seems unique to Peach, though. How does she do a better job of this than other characters?

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She can stay in the air at a desired height unlike most characters. She's also got a very deadly Up Smash and good aerials

infzy said:

We SDI up? often leading to punishment from the Sonic, if only via spring (although I think Nair/Fair can work as well). For sure her Dair is great at shield-pressure and is the major threat when she's floating and weaving in+out above us. But it really doesn't seem game-breaking to me; it's just a move, and a multi-hit escapable one at that. If Peach is landing Dairs, then we should be landing up-tilts as well IMO. She can weave with her float, but we can just outrun her lol.

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Up Tilt won't work most of the time, it'll clash at best. If Peach has spaced her Dair properly, she'll get a hit in first the majority of the time. Also, Up Tilt is very very punishable. She might use a Fair as well, which will definitly stop an Up Tilt

Sonic can SDI up from the Dair but this is easier said than done. If it looks like he's SDI'ing away, Peach can move away from Sonic. Peach wants to be aiming to hit Sonic around the tip of her Dair area so she can move out of danger if need be

infzy said:

More bairs. Srsly, bair bair bair. The spacing isn't that hard to safely bair, afaict; since Peach's Fair has short range in comparison.

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If Peach gets inside you, what's stopping her from sheilding the Bair and following up with a dash attack or a Turnip if she's got one? She's also got her F Tilt which can stop it

infzy said:

This does sound very interesting. Does VSDJ really go through her Dair, like between hits? (or clash with it?) That'd be preeetty sweet.

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Ah no sorry :/

What I meant was that you should try using it if Peach looks like she's agressivly approaching with Dairs at where she should be (just above head height). Sonic could jump right over her and punish her. Try it out

infzy, you've fought Niko right? Has anyone fought any other high lvl Peach players? I'll ask them to give their input on this to give a hand

I hate to sound bias here but I've had my Sonic fight Peach's before, some of which weren't very good or had just watched me play and it's been difficult imo. Spaced Bairs can only get you so far. When you get to the edge of the stage, you're going to have to face that wall of Dair eventually. I'll see what other Peach's have to say. Both sides should be playing very defensivly though. Try to get Peach to approach you. I tend to do very badly if I lose my cool and approach vs Sonic but find it much easier if I play campy (which I hate doing :/)

I played Etherlight's peach last week, and peach has like, this anti upair gay **** going on.

i couldn't catch the second hit of the uair for the life of me.

ive played niko.

ive also played xiivi, and to be honest, xiivi plays about 80% of the characters in the game better than about 80% of the people that main that character

space you bair, and when they are conditioned to that, you can pull your overshot fairs and up smashes

How the hell does Sonic beat Rob? I can't do it..

Yeah i'll just remember to abuse f-air, b-air and especially u-air, and when he's close to the ledge off stage i'll go for the b-air stage spike. D-air wouldn't be smart because of robs u-air priority saves him from getting spiked a lot. Any suggestions while recovering with sonic? Because i know rob can mess with sonic's recovery big time.

(And yes the u-air suggestion is gonna help a lot because of robs big wideness. thanks)

Also a very important thing to note is ROBs dead time after a Nair. They love that ****er and baiting it isn't as hard as you might think.

Sorry I missed this a bit earlier

Kinzer said:

I'm not sure every Peach player is going to hardcore camp, but I guess we should start telling this to everybody who plays Peach to start doing so.

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It was Edrees who gave me the idea originally about playing defensivly and not approaching Sonic and ever since I now tend to play quite defensivly against Sonic because an agressive Peach vs Sonic can get ***** pretty badly

Kinzer said:

As for the match going for a really long time, Sonic can play Gay back, just run to the other side of the stage and/once you catch no to your opponent's habits, it's pretty annoying. The last match of the set was almost decided by the time (and I would've won) until I got that DSmash kill off... yay for Rolldodge/happy Peaches. At least she isn't too fast or mobile to get around Sonic once he gets inside.

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Running to the other side of the stage is asking for a Floating aerial in the face, paticularly a Dair. If Sonic gets inside, she can Nair away, jab him away or SH Dair Sonic away. She's a lot faster than she looks. Rolldodge happiness is just asking for punishment xD

Kinzer said:

I would buffer a Fair from a run if the Peach isn't in the floating neutral position, it works okay I suppose.

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Can I ask what you mean by neutral floating position? D: And yea, running straight at Peach with a Fair to knock her out of her Float is a good idea but you need to watch out for her aerials. Nair would clash and so would Bair(?), Fair would depend if Peach moved out the way/spaced well enough, otherwise Sonic would get his Fair in. Also, if you see her Dairing, make sure you hit above her feet!

Kinzer said:

Spring also works out of Dair, but of course always use SDI to get out of it to make sure the Spring projectile hits and Peach doesn't swat it away with her Uair. Usually if Peach doesn't get hit by a Bair Sonic can always buffer a shield since if done right hasno landing lag. FSmash mindgames are always lulzy, I actually got Peapo to think I was gonig to release my FSmash so he could punish it, next thing he knew, he mistimes/mispaces and goes flying to the blastzone at 100-110%. Peach is very vulnerable offstage of they recovery via predictable ADing/freefalling or floating back, pick your choice of any aerial (not Uair) and Homing Attack.

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HOMING ATTACK IS BAD!!! VERY VERY BAD

I can't stress this enough. Peach being vunerable whilst recovering vs Sonic is nonsense. Her Up + B has crazy priority. She has Toad to stop aerial attacks and since Sonic can't stay offstage safely for very long, it's not hard to avoid what Sonic is throwing at you. Peach has to be careful as always when recovering but the way you're describing her vunerability vs Sonic off stage is simply not true

However, the F Smash thing is something I'm really glad you've picked up on because it's an absolute beast of finisher if Peach is recovering right towards you. If Peach is falling back down to the stage and they look like they're going to try and hit you with an aerial such as a Fair, get that up angled spaced F Smash in. Seriously, it's too good. Chis gets me 99% of the time with a charged F Smash if I try to counter back with a Fair when recovering and I litterally /facepalm everytime I do it xD

Kinzer said:

Probably the reason HA works so well against a floating Peach recovering is because if they risk getting out of said floating, they lose their jump and it would mean death not to get a hit from Sonic.

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A Peach who knows what they're doing would simply Nair a Homing Attack or Toad it if they want to. Homing Attack is not a viable anti Floating recovery move

Kinzer said:

SSmash probably works well because Peachs have to land sometime after their float too, and if you catch on to their habits like empty floating, then by all means go for it.

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What do you do to hit Peach when she's landing? She can space her Fair, use a Dair/Nair or space a Bair if you're behind her. She has a 2 frame jab she can use to get you away and a D Smash that comes out fast and will stop the majority of Sonic's ground moves


I want to stress that if you get away with spindashes and Homing Attacks against a Peach, they are definitly doing something wrong. I don't want to sound like I'm saying that Peach completely shuts down Sonic because that's not true but I've seen people say things that imo aren't true when fighting Peach. I was hoping some other Peach mains would pop on over to help dicuss but... :/


Speaking of ROB, what do you do against his Nair/where do you DI? And how should you punish it if he misses with it? D:

Also, I love your new sig Cama xD

Couldn't you run at Peach and shield grab her when she tries a jab? I don't play Peach much ever. You should play me sometime R3D XD

I've been messing around with the first hit of upair alot recently and at high percents you can space yourself to stage spike with it lol

Could we FF the uair as Peach appraoches with dair So that Sonic hits with the first hit? It's low enough if you FF so that he lands on his head. But is it good enough? It has pretty nice horizontal range the first part of the attack and landing him on his head cancels the second hit.

EDIT I meant by stage spike that I hit them with the first hit and that pulled them in to be hit with the second for the spike. So now that I think about it,even if it has the priority(whic Idon't know if it does) It could pull Peach closer to Sonic possibly giving her a free hit. =/

Da** Rick, take a tour to the U.S.A, and make sure Vegas is on the way. Either I am an entirely different opinion this, I am not fighting the right Peach(es), or maybe just some bias that we all can't avoid as much as we try (or something else I can't really describe). Maybe without the lag of cross-country Wi-Fi we would be able to get some junk done.

It's just too bad Edreese had to quit professional Barlw, he's probably the person you would want to go to if you wanted pro Peach butt-whoopin' on the West Coast (I'm sorry, I don't know anybody else here and isn't Dark Peach or something but then again everybody who mains the princess is dropping Brawl... I blame B+).

Uhm anyway, I won't argue any further seeing as how nobody might know the correlation between the characters better than you, and maybe you're right... maybe it would be a pretty bad matchup for Sonic if the characters weren't limited by the players playing them.... and then again maybe not, but I won't tell so long as I can't decide on a "crusader" for both characters (seriously, a lot of Peach players quitting is a big bummer, and God knows how disperse Sonic's playstyles can be).

I will say though when I say neutral floating position, I mean not moving, not doing an attack, but just... lolligagging in the air... in a defensive position waiting for Sonic to do something and counter it with an aerial.

I'm hungry.

*reads thread*

I agree with Rick. ^^

I'm also available on wifi - so if anyone want's to get some 1v1s with a Peach that isn't a million billion miles away, I'm up for stuff. I have to get some Sonic practice in too.

Are you available anytime next week Meno?

I would offer this week, but I'd rather not try my performance on Wi-Fi a little bit before an in-person tourney, especially not one with pros coming from Cali/Utah/whatever Vegas might have that isn't SK, and that's a good amount.

...However Wi-Fi can help, but I dunno when that is...

Wi-Fi still sucks though, and if I know you're going to Genesis, then that would be the best practice... but I suppose until then... bawww...

My spring break is next week. ^^

We should practice for Genesis - better than at Genesis.

Hmm, but again, I'd rather not get attuned back to Wi-Fi again....

I suppose it does depend on the connection, but yeah, from this point on unless it's for lulz/somebody requests Wi-Fi, I'm much rather have 1 month intervals of offline practice than being able to practice on a rigid system everyday.

I'll see you until then I suppose.

Peach is a *****. **** her. You too Rick. FUUUUUCKKKK YOOOOOOUUUUUUU!

Wifi made me obsessed with spindashing and stupid **** but it certainly showed me that those things aren't viable. The fact is Peach shuts down half of Sonic's game. So our versatility is basically gone. Our/my movements become more predictable and it makes me cry. I didn't get enough matches to really examine everything but I seem to agree with RD3. Even if he is a jerk. In a dress. He's a dress wearing jerk. T_T

hey hey hey got somethin to say...

does anyone think that a big issue in some of these matchups like peach and GaW is that the sonic player generally lacks enough patience?

I've been thinkin about it for a while. it seems like some people like to say that sonic can't win because he has to get close while the other character really doesn't, when in reality in some cases, that is not true. in the case of peach and GaW IMO, their best weapons are in close range. thier display of weaving in the air, airdodging randomly, etc... when it comes down to it, is an elabroate display of getting close right? these people make it seem like sonic has to sit there and take it, when plenty of times, I either ran away outside of what i thought thier range was from the standing position, spinshot > retreating Spring dair, or air dodged past them. In some cases I even RAN PAST THEM because they are so scared of an attack from me that they airdodge. I think the issue is that all sonic players atm, despite the advanced offence we have picked up over the months, either lack sufficient spacing or inadequate patience.

Don't take this as "oh, kojin apparently is the only one with patience and spacing" no, dont even try that line. But there would be times as a sonic player that you know these people are only floating and jumping around in basically one small space because they are waiting for you to come at them. And we still try to run in what is obviously a setup. sometimes It looks so clear to me, that I'll say it out loud. "you're not fooling anyone. Don't worry, I'll wait." If sonic is king of punishing lag, why should I feel pressured to run at you when you are clearly doing your lagless aerials in place? duh. "its a trap." Even then, I still find myself caught by it.

Sonic's speed IMHO is so good that it makes people do things before you even consider attacking them. recognizing those actions then quickly responding before they can change it up OR "waiting" it out with fake approaches can make a matchup look a bit more favorable. if it wasn't an issue people would be offensive all the time against sonic, but they don't do they? they don't overlook this aspect of his game, and niether should we...

lolusingspeedforoffenseandfefense

JayBee said:

does anyone think that a big issue in some of these matchups like peach and GaW is that the sonic player generally lacks enough patience?

Click to expand...

You certainly need patience in this match up and so does Peach otherwise she'll do significantly worse

JayBee said:

I've been thinkin about it for a while. it seems like some people like to say that sonic can't win because he has to get close while the other character really doesn't, when in reality in some cases, that is not true. in the case of peach and GaW IMO, their best weapons are in close range.

Click to expand...

I'm not saying Sonic can't win because he can't get close, I'm just saying that technically Peach doesn't have to approach. Peach's camping isn't exactly fast but if she goes on the defensive, she can certainly make it hard for Sonic. You are most definitly right in that Peach's best moves are up close but that doesn't mean she'll fling herself into Sonic - Peach will be spacing if she's doing it right and using 2 frame jabs to cover her if needs be

JayBee said:

thier display of weaving in the air, airdodging randomly, etc... when it comes down to it, is an elabroate display of getting close right? these people make it seem like sonic has to sit there and take it, when plenty of times, I either ran away outside of what i thought thier range was from the standing position, spinshot > retreating Spring dair, or air dodged past them. In some cases I even RAN PAST THEM because they are so scared of an attack from me that they airdodge. I think the issue is that all sonic players atm, despite the advanced offence we have picked up over the months, either lack sufficient spacing or inadequate patience.

Click to expand...

With Peach, you can't simply run past her or spinshot past her if she's Floating correctly because of her Dair/Nair. This is my point - Sonic effectivly very very limited ground options against Peach's Dair (besides Up Tilt and Up Smash both of which are less than good) and very limited aerial options. So where do you go to avoid Peach? You can Up + B to Dair but that's incredibly punishable. You can run away but that gives Peach the chance to pull up Turnip and gives her room to camp if she wants to

Ahh I forgot to mention, Peach will never (or very very rarely) Float from far away as an approach. She'll normally use Turnips or SH aerials and throw some Floating stuff in when she gets closer

If a player is scared of getting hit by an attack, doesn't that fall under the category of human error?

JayBee said:

Don't take this as "oh, kojin apparently is the only one with patience and spacing" no, dont even try that line. But there would be times as a sonic player that you know these people are only floating and jumping around in basically one small space because they are waiting for you to come at them. And we still try to run in what is obviously a setup. sometimes It looks so clear to me, that I'll say it out loud. "you're not fooling anyone. Don't worry, I'll wait." If sonic is king of punishing lag, why should I feel pressured to run at you when you are clearly doing your lagless aerials in place? duh. "its a trap." Even then, I still find myself caught by it.

Click to expand...

Peach can approach Sonic if she needs to because she has the tools to do so but she's also got the tools to not approach as well. I should also mention that Peach has a decent ground game as well and she can stop Floating any time she choose even if performing an aerial. Peach can mix things up just as well. For example, you could go in for a Fair to knock me out of my Float. I could drop my Float and try to Up Smash/Up Tilt/ F Tilt you out of the Fair. But that comes under stuff like prediction which you can't factor very well into a match up

And if Sonic is the king of punishing lag and Peach has fast attacks/lagless aerials...that doesn't bode very well for him

JayBee said:

Sonic's speed IMHO is so good that it makes people do things before you even consider attacking them. recognizing those actions then quickly responding before they can change it up OR "waiting" it out with fake approaches can make a matchup look a bit more favorable. if it wasn't an issue people would be offensive all the time against sonic, but they don't do they? they don't overlook this aspect of his game, and niether should we...

Click to expand...

This is really very much down to match up inexperience/outplaying your opponent. Sonic really isn't that fast. Sure he's got fast running speed but that's about it. The fact that Peach has much faster attacks/multi hit moves such as Dair and D Smash/vastly higher priority/lagless aerials means that Sonic is going to have a very hard time punishing Peach

A Peach who knows how Sonic works will be on the careful lookout for what Sonic is going to do. His spindash game is very limited due to Peach's Floating. ASC, Spinshot, Homing Attack and other spindash stuff is outprioritized. Also, if Sonic spindashes past Peach and she sheild's it, Sonic is very much open to punishment (I've chased and Up Smashed people before). Sonic's recovery is vunerable to being edgeguarded because Peach can answer his recovery options. Hell, I've even countered Sonic's trying to kill me via Up + B ---> Uair by getting Peach's Dair in first and actually killing them off the top

Looking at this match up from both sides in my point of view, I would say Peach has a notable advantage over Sonic simply because she has answers to everything he can do. Some of them certainly aren't perfect but she can counter a lot of his options which is why I think it's a bad match up for Sonic


@SS8677 - I'm not sure. Spacing Sonic's Uair would be a nightmare I would have thought. I'll see if I can look into that

And yup you can sheild the jab but there's a chance you'll get pushed back by the 2nd one

Oh I almost forgot - Lol watch out for jab to grab tricks from Peach. It's completely inescapable but some Peach's might throw it in for a surprise

Rick, Peach doesn't have lag less aerials, and Sonic isn't very limited vs floating. Who approaches with spin dash a lot anyways *cough*. So it's not that much of an issue. Jab, grab tricks are escapable. Shield, side step. Down smash and Dair < corect smash DI, not that big a deal. If down smash misses, she gets punished. Camping with float and Dairs? :/ Yes I was killed a few times by Rick cause I tried spring > Uair. Anyways....

Peach has a terribly bad air dodge. Discuss.

Lol her air dodge is the worst in the game You should most definitly capitalize on that if Peach has a habit of airdodging when recovering which is what Kinzer said earlier I think

And her aerials are close to being lagless unless you whiff a Fair which has noticable landing lag. If you ever see her do that, make her pay for it

Sonic's options are still limited against Floating Dairs. Against her just Floating, yea he's got a fair amount of stuff like spaced Bair which is very good against a floaty Peach

Say Chis, you haven't given your 'write up' view in this match up D: What do you think it is and what can Sonic do? It'd be great to hear what you think about this match up. I need to look back on what I've posted and see if I've exaggerated on some things which I fear I might have done

But yea, against Dairs you can SDI out of them but then what would you do once you're out of them?

And I just wanted to warn people of the jab to grab tricks because I've caught people off guard with it before and it can work on Sonic if Sonic doesn't know what to do

Hmm, I'm probably out of place to say,
But in my experiance, fighting Peach as Sonic is like fighting Wolf: Sonic must constantly be shifting around Peach to dodge her attacks proporly, then following up with fast counter attacks.
However unlike Wolf, Peach can float above the ground, as one of her character special abilities. Why would I be pointing out Peach's floating move? Simple, she cannot be GRABBED...(what a load of crap!)
You see, as for fighting players who use Wolf typically rely on his ground manuverability, his reflecter shield (which is no big deal once you're used to fighting Wolf), and his disturbingly fast Smash attacks. Wolf's smash attacks allow him to move in mid-attack (which in my oppinion makes him a poweful adversary for point-blank fighters like Sonic), can make it also easy to dodge, where Peach on the other hand moves (roughly to my observation) 50% of the time when she attacks, making it a slight challange to measure your dodging.
But here's the trick: After dodging, follow up with grabs and quick, easily chainabl tossing; don't waste time with holding damage. That's why Peach is dangerous when she's floating. I'd say the best substitute for grabbing against Peach is with the Up smash.

Of course this all boils down to skill and resources in a Brawl...

AM I at all in the ball park here?... =/

upsmash is too slow lol
uptilt>upsmash

R3D can you get on wifi now? I'd like to try to test some stuff and get some experience against a Peach main

Hey, if timed proporly it's a descent rushing move. =/

(Also on the Wifi thing, how do you get your connection? I've been trying to get hooked up for minths but to no avail...)

JayBee said:

does anyone think that a big issue in some of these matchups like peach and GaW is that the sonic player generally lacks enough patience?

Click to expand...

That certainly seems to be the case. I'm patient against like GaW and MK cause I lose otherwise. And by patient I mean I camp at midrange. I still go overly aggro.

Do you have a wireless router? Go to the wii options menu and internet and then click connection settings. click connection 1, choose wirelss and then search for an access point. If it finds one, test the connection. If not, you'll probably need a wii usb adapter to make it wired, which is better anyway.

Patients is a major key, sadly. Especially against characters like Peach...
...Meta Knight, you can rush from time to time, because Meta Knight users (in my experiance) tend to frequently go over board with a lot of fast attacks, making them vulnerable to easy counter attacks...
...Peach's moves on the other hand can cancel out or even beat some of Sonic's attacks (if ill timed...), thus making patients dominant other than endless charging...

...Buuut that's probly just me. =/

Super_Sonic8677 said:

Do you have a wireless router? Go to the wii options menu and internet and then click connection settings. click connection 1, choose wirelss and then search for an access point. If it finds one, test the connection. If not, you'll probably need a wii usb adapter to make it wired, which is better anyway.

Click to expand...

Naw, I don't have a router. I'm using a broad band connection for my internet.

I suppose I'll need to search down for a wii adaptor then, huh?
Alright then...And thanks.