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Yoshi v. Snake
- Thread starter Shiri
- Start date
SOVAman
Smash Hero
I love this match up I will write more later.
Eternal Yoshi
I've covered ban wars, you know
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If you ever fight him, make sure you have port priority(or port 4). This way, when you eat him and a grenade blows up, you will not recieve knockback meanwhile he gets blown up.
Metatitan
Smash Master
35:65 snake IMO. mainly cuz of killing issues, hes just plain fat and we cant really kill him that easily...
Gindler
Smash Champion
When a snake starts nade countering just DJC egg lay, sometimes the nade blows up while he's in the egg or after he pops out so either way you don't get hurt. Egg toss makes nades kinda a hassle for snake to use, not like he even needs nades. 9/10 snake will mortar slide to the edge once your off stage, i just drift towards the edge and egg lay him off (matchup i use egg lay the most). Once in Utilt kill range I make sure to egg camp hard, I can DI well but still. It's also fairly easy to tank a hit from snake's Nair to hit him with your own Nair (if you feel like going for it)
Snake still has a pretty solid advantage, and unless you get a spike on him (or cypher grab) you really have to be on a roll to win
Snake still has a pretty solid advantage, and unless you get a spike on him (or cypher grab) you really have to be on a roll to win
Before I do my whole page-long essay deal, I want to say one thing.If you're trying to actually KO him, you're really doing it wrong and I actually mean that. You lose by trying to actually KO Snake. Every character does. You have to gay him. You have to gimp him. It's really the only way. His tilt game is broke and his grenades are easy, but his survival game is 100% legit, so don't try to KO him when you can put less effort into gimps and gays.
Poltergust
Smash Master
Really, the only moves that you should use to KO in this match-up is Yoshi's u-air and maybe Yoshi Bomb. Up-smash would most likely not kill Snake until 180%, and f-smash is way too risky.
Yoshi is better at gimping Snake than most characters due to his superior air-speed and double-jump. Snake is one of the easiest characters to f-air spike on, and if Snake is too far away from the ledge he can't do a thing about it.
If Snake is C4 Jumping, try to predict where the C4 will blast him and foot-stool him. Yoshi can get down really low because he can easily double-jump back. It's always funny when that happens.
Yoshi is better at gimping Snake than most characters due to his superior air-speed and double-jump. Snake is one of the easiest characters to f-air spike on, and if Snake is too far away from the ledge he can't do a thing about it.
If Snake is C4 Jumping, try to predict where the C4 will blast him and foot-stool him. Yoshi can get down really low because he can easily double-jump back. It's always funny when that happens.
Eternal Yoshi
I've covered ban wars, you know
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Shiri speaks the truth. I've played this matchup from both sides and if Yoshi tries to send Snake offscreen without gimping, he will most likely fail.
Snake lives to over 150% in this matchup if you don't gimp him. Meanwhile, Yoshi won't live over 120% here.
Also, While CGing him, he will have 1 frame to act, in which case he can drop a grenade when you grab him.
As Snake, you don't have to work that hard to win against Yoshi. Unfortunate but true.
Snake lives to over 150% in this matchup if you don't gimp him. Meanwhile, Yoshi won't live over 120% here.
Also, While CGing him, he will have 1 frame to act, in which case he can drop a grenade when you grab him.
As Snake, you don't have to work that hard to win against Yoshi. Unfortunate but true.
I am going to post a PM that I sent to another member of the boards a while back regarding the match.The one change of heart I've had over time is the fact that, yes, Yoshi can chaingrab Snake, but it may not be worth it in the long run. Consistent and simple tactics will win you this match and the chaingrab only helps if you're really a master at it.
Feel free to provide your input on the matter. I'd like to see what other experiences people have had versus Snake or what other Snake mains know of the matchup so I can compare my thoughts to their own.Shiri said:
Forgive me if I sound at any point during this PM as if I am pretending you don't know how to play the game. The matchup is really easy if you approach it with very very basic tactics, so I'm just asking you to use a simple approach, that's all.
There are four places this match takes place on: the main stage, the edge, the air, and any platforms that may be present. I'll describe some basic strategies here, but the one overwhelming point is this: do not hesitate to reset. Yoshi is already a character balanced with plenty of risk for his rewards. You do not need to waste percentage or stock running into Snake's bullsh*t. If you see an opportunity to reset your positioning and "start over," you should take it.
On the main stage, this is where Yoshi really has to go head to head with Snake intelligently to gain an upper hand. One wrong step means you're 25% behind and another mistake means you've probably lost the stock, or will spend your next stock trying to get back in the game. Snake has two weapons on his part of the stage: forward tilt and dash attack. Jabs and grabs to a lesser extent, but Snake doesn't just throw those out. He only uses them when he has an opportunity to set them up, so they're not applicable.
Snake's forward tilt is such that if they're about to land and you go for the dash attack, let's say, to intercept their landing...Snake can intercept with forward tilt using its ludicrous speed and range. He can, in fact, throw this move out (just the first step) with very little risk to himself. Because of this, do not be afraid to shield early and shield often. Let's go back to the scenario where Snake is landing. If, instead of dash attacking, you dash into shield (early, especially since forward tilt has the range and speed), many Snakes know not to perform the second step of forward tilt on a shielding opponent. They will most often opt, instead, to perform a jab, and then another forward tilt to apply shield pressure. After the jab, you can roll away with relative safety and reset your positioning. If you do happen to shield a second step of the forward tilt, examine how far away from Snake you are. If you are close, you can jab combo and reset or rush into a grab. If you are medium range, you can dash grab or try for a dash attack, but watch out for powershields. If you are at maximum length, do not do anything. If you begin to roll back and Snake tries to forward tilt again, you will get hit in the vulnerability frames. Sit tight and wait to see what he does and try to react accordingly. If he does perform another tilt, you can roll immediately after the first swing.
Dash attack is killer. There are three ways to deal with this move. Pivot grabbing is one way. Unfortunately, you oftentimes do not have the space and time to deal with a dash attack in this manner. Another way to deal is to use forward tilt. I cannot express, however, how precise your timing has to be with forward tilt to beat out Snake's dash attack. There is no tie; you will either beat it or you won't. It almost has to be a twitch reaction, but it could be worth it if you learn the timing. The final way is to, again, shield. On shielding the dash attack, you should release immediately and perform jabs to reset your position. Don't try anything else--it's not worth it. Even if you have to run away after you double jab, it will be that much better.
Now, Yoshi has a few weapons to use here. First and foremost is to realize that eggs beat grenades hands down. However, you have to be careful to not just lob eggs mindlessly. Snake can throw grenades faster than you can throw eggs and if he slips a grenade your way he will immediately follow up with a mortar slide to cover distance and apply massive pressure. Don't let him do this. At mid range, it is your job to spot an opening for a back aerial. PLEASE DO NOT PERFORM RISING BACK AERIALS WHEN ATTEMPTING TO COMBO SNAKE AT LOW PERCENTS. Do the back air when you're at the peak of your jump to get the maximum amount of hits with the minimum amount of downtime. A full back air leads into a forward tilt, which leads into an up tilt almost (honestly) 100% of the time. This is a free almost 40% damage that leads into your main weapon: the pivot grab.
Grabs **** Snake. Hands down. Period. Whenever you see a spot to grab him, go for it. Yes, you can chaingrab Snake, it does work. You have to buffer the dash, but it works. If you grab Snake at or near the edge, forward throw. Forward throw and back throw do ridiculous damage; just toss him in whichever direction puts him off the stage. I'll discuss how to deal with him offstage later. Make efforts to recognize predictable spotdodge patterns and capitalize on them. Grabbing Snake will win you matches; this is fact...not opinion. If you're on a smaller stage with platforms like Battlefield, chaingrabbing is not the way to go. Use forward and back throws and follow up with the following strategy.
Other than grabs, the basic way to beat Snake while he's on the stage is to pepper him with small hits at a constant rate over some period of time. You don't have to do massive amounts of damage or game-breaking combos. You just have to keep pecking at him to 1] push him to the edge and 2] to keep him from hitting you. It's best to stop Snake from getting at you by constantly keeping him flinching with jabs and other light hits. Keeping him flinching and slightly off the ground (to prevent pseudo CC forward tilts and such) will keep Snake off-balance for a majority of the match and will eventually force him to start pulling grenades to defend himself when he gets hit. A simple scenario is if you manage to forward tilt him at close range at a somewhat low percentage. You can follow up with a jab combo and run straight into a dash attack. If they're still at low altitude, you can follow with another dash attack or something else suitable that keeps Snake vulnerable. Remember, you want to focus on low knockback moves that keep Snake off the ground, but at low altitudes until you can get in that stock-ending grab or neutral air to push him off the stage. One more word about grabs; abuse them. Really. When he is landing? Grab. He missed a tilt? Grab if you can. Predictable spotdodge? Don't forward smash, grab.
At the edge and off the stage, Yoshi wins hands down. If you're on the stage and Snake is trying to recover, a standing grab is more than adequate to stop him. Once you get comfortable with how Snake moves off the edge, you can start getting consistent forward air spikes on Snake's sides while he's recovering from below to make your job easier. When in doubt, neutral air.
Okay, I was gonna type more, but my hands are hurting. If you want more, I'll get back to you tomorrow. I'm hoping at least some of this is going to help.
VSC.D-Torr
Smash Hero
Thank you, Shiri, for the info on Snake. I never really hated fighting Snakes to start with, but now, I feel it can be easier as long as I heed the advice you give there.
YoshiIslander77z
Smash Apprentice
learn the spacing to his up tilt and ull start living alot longer
Metatitan
Smash Master
that huge disjoint? how do u expect to consistantly space that
Gindler
Smash Champion
I sometimes trick myself with trying to space it, I'll space how far the leg looks like it goes (nothing wrong with that) of course the hitbox is like two yoshi lengths though
Just egg camp once in Utilt range (120%ish with good DI)
MrEh
Smash Hero
I'd be pessimistic too if I realized that Snake's leg is 20 feet long.
bigman40
Smash Master
Stop being pessimistic and get better. You should always be trying to strive for something better in your skills. Yeah, he has insane range within the Utilt. So what? When you know where the range is, it's the same as any other move.
Hot_ArmS
Smash Hero
Fatal vs. GreenAce
mikeray4
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2008
- Messages
- 707
Im a snake main, I find yoshis very troubling if they are good. egg camp. its hard to approach yoshi, and outcamps snake. then grab,grab,grab, if you get knocked of the ledge plank him to death with the eggs. snake will not die until untill he's past 150%(for the most part) so save your smashes and camp. IMO if the yoshi does everything right 50-50.(if yoshi planks for the whole match 55-45 yoshi)
Cliche-Guevara
Smash Cadet
Dont get predictable with the rolls when Snake is applying shield pressure though, some snakes will bait it then mortar slide / grab you.
Also, perhaps my spacing is off, but do we have an aerial that beats snakes Nair / Bair? I thought my Dair came down on his head while he was mid-Nairing and I got killed for it, and the Bair is just a falling wall of priority it seems. If I have to I will just AD through it and reset, but it would be nice to know.
Also, perhaps my spacing is off, but do we have an aerial that beats snakes Nair / Bair? I thought my Dair came down on his head while he was mid-Nairing and I got killed for it, and the Bair is just a falling wall of priority it seems. If I have to I will just AD through it and reset, but it would be nice to know.
Frown
poekmon
All aerial attacks have the same priority in Brawl. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229521
EDIT: Don't believe everything you read.
You can get lucky and tie your up aerial with back aerial, but it's just luck.Neutral air is no go.
On the ground, however, you have a multitude of options. The best way to deal with back aerial is pivot grab or crawl back to down tilt or forward smash. Dealing with neutral air can see use of upsmash, charged forward smash (the pullback will take you out of reach of the move unless they are really using momentum to approach with it, and even then, you can still space pretty easily), up tilt, or run behind it and short hop back aerial.
P.S. - That dude doesn't know what he's talking about. Don't believe everything you read.
Frown
poekmon
I'm a bit sceptical too...
Is Yoshi's tail a part of his hurtbox while he's performing bair?
It's hard to tell. We honestly need hitboxes to know for sure, and that's not going to be here for a while.There's nothing to be skeptical about, though. He's wrong. Just pretend like you didn't read it.
P.S. - I think his tail does have a bodybox attached to it, come to think of it. The move is very high priority, but I've been tipped out of it before by Marths, even though it's hard to tell if they tipped the tail or if they tipped the next closest bodybox (if Yoshi's tail didn't have a bodybox attached to it). Quick thin moves like that are really hard to tell if they have disjointedness or not.
P.P.S. - Did anybody see Bwett v. DSF's Snake? I wish I could have seen what it was like; seeing what he did right and wrong and what he avoided and what he got hit by would have given us just a touch more insight into the matchup maybe.
Cliche-Guevara
Smash Cadet
Well thanks for clearing that up, ill try to just pivot grab / AD through it if Im recovering next time.
Poltergust
Smash Master
If I remember correctly, I read that Yoshi has the largest non-disjointed hitboxes in the game. So, while he has long reach, he can still be hit by attacks with longer range (particularly disjointed attacks).
Frown
poekmon
Is Ivysaur's bair disjointed?
Cliche-Guevara
Smash Cadet
As far as I know yes, I cant remember a time when I was able to hit it without hitting Ivysaur.
Gindler
Smash Champion
Being an Ivy player I'd have to say....no, it's even better than disjointed.
Gindler
Smash Champion
Update: I hate snake so much now, they're either nade countering or using their ridiculous tilt............only safe thing you can really do is egg toss....
chimpact
Smash Lord
If you are playing on platforms. uptilt, fthrow, bair, brthrow, upthrow, dthrow to get them on the platform. After that you can do a neutral b. 7% free damage. (Unless they tech?)
The 7% may seem like nothing, but what happens when they stop shielding and do rolls instead. Predict the rolls and punish with nair, up air, Charged up smash.
you can also use up b, but eggs are pretty obvious. I wasnt gonna mention until now.
The 7% may seem like nothing, but what happens when they stop shielding and do rolls instead. Predict the rolls and punish with nair, up air, Charged up smash.
you can also use up b, but eggs are pretty obvious. I wasnt gonna mention until now.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I have come to the conclusion that it is impossible to beat a TOP LEVEL SNAKE who knows the matchup decently, and is playing smart.
I think bwett will back me up on this, but DSF was able to beat my yoshi with his snake by basically spamming ftilt(not stupidly tho) and whenever i was in the air he would either grab or ftilt on landing or mortar slide spam.
And it worked. Thats stupid.
I can beat not top/very high level snake players with ease (im very good at the matchup), but people who are at or above my level and know the matchup are not possible.
I think bwett will back me up on this, but DSF was able to beat my yoshi with his snake by basically spamming ftilt(not stupidly tho) and whenever i was in the air he would either grab or ftilt on landing or mortar slide spam.
And it worked. Thats stupid.
I can beat not top/very high level snake players with ease (im very good at the matchup), but people who are at or above my level and know the matchup are not possible.
breez
Smash Ace
I disagree with a few points. Yoshi should live to AT LEAST 130-140% The second your yoshi rolls past 130 you need to egg camp HARD.
Also, snake lives to 170+ routinely if you don't gimp
I would even say 180+ happens pretty often.I also resent that you "don't have to work hard" to beat a good yoshi. A good yoshi is just like any other character. A person plays a character, the character doesn't play the person.
Egg toss egg toss egg toss.
oOTjayOo
Smash Apprentice
Lol. I egg Planked a Snake on Japes. It was to good. He couldn't really do much but try to stop me then I moved to the other ledge with the second jump I had while off the stage. If I could travel under center part of the stage then that would really be good. Btw whats the use of DSmash in this Matchup?
I SEE YOU
Smash Ace
Yoshi should take advantage of his ****ty throw knockback in this match up. If i get the opportunity to throw snake off the map i try to punish the **** out of him. Many snakes will jump after being foward thrown by yoshi in an attempt to get back to the stage above you. I always throw a high egg to counter that immediate jump. After landing the egg, read Snake. He is typically going to land on the stage with a back air (stupid good priority) or an air dodge. This is your chance to use your sick pivot grab game to try and throw him back off the stage and repeat. If the snake tries to avoid the egg and go low to grab the edge, try to dash grab and prevent that from happening. I haven't played any top level Snakes with my yoshi, but this tactic works well for me in the Snakes that i have played.
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
My brief views on this MU.
Long range is safe for us. Easy to deal with nades. Throw eggs at Snake from here, hopefully blowing up the nades on him or in the air so we don't have to deal with them.
Mid Range isn't very safe. It's harder to deal with nades since you also have to think about Snake's tilt range and DACUS. At this range I usually bait an attack and punish or attempt an egg lay to get Snake into the air. I also tend to run at this range because I don't like this distance from Snake. I'll usually get onto the ledge and use some ECE since they're relatively safer against Snake than onstage eggs. Then I'll get back on and try to get him into the air or back to long range.
Close Range we should pop Snake into the air with an ftilt or utilt, or jab him away. Pivot grabs can work too. I'm not a fan of being at this range with Snake until he's at like, 50% since until then he can ftilt us out of like, anything.
**** Snake in the air. Egg him and grab his landings. Don't let him down easily. Gimp him offstage or tack on a lot of percent. Learn to Super Jump so you can get him if he recovers high.
Long range is safe for us. Easy to deal with nades. Throw eggs at Snake from here, hopefully blowing up the nades on him or in the air so we don't have to deal with them.
Mid Range isn't very safe. It's harder to deal with nades since you also have to think about Snake's tilt range and DACUS. At this range I usually bait an attack and punish or attempt an egg lay to get Snake into the air. I also tend to run at this range because I don't like this distance from Snake. I'll usually get onto the ledge and use some ECE since they're relatively safer against Snake than onstage eggs. Then I'll get back on and try to get him into the air or back to long range.
Close Range we should pop Snake into the air with an ftilt or utilt, or jab him away. Pivot grabs can work too. I'm not a fan of being at this range with Snake until he's at like, 50% since until then he can ftilt us out of like, anything.
**** Snake in the air. Egg him and grab his landings. Don't let him down easily. Gimp him offstage or tack on a lot of percent. Learn to Super Jump so you can get him if he recovers high.