Peach Research & Experimentation

deepseadiva · Mar 24, 2009

I think it's time we start focusing more now on the hows, whys, and what ifs, about Peach. She's an interesting character, with some interesting attributes; I think with some help from the overall community, we can take a look into how this chick works. And who knows, maybe we can formulate some ATs from this. Think of it as an advanced and whimsical Q&A.

CURRENT PONDERINGS

What is the full extent of Peach's planking capabilities?

How can Peach put Diddy's bananas to the best use?

Does Peach have any 0-80% combos on a good part of the cast?

What are Peach's capabilities with a wall?

How can Peach use her footstool to the best effect? Offensively and defensively?

Is it possible to consistently get usmashes by chasing and/or predicting certain movements on the edge?

How can we best to take advantage of the usable 21 frames of invincibility received from grabbing the ledge and what recoveries can be punished with them?

SOLVED PONDERINGS

How does Peach's 'random' fsmash work?

Niko_K said:

I just pulled out a golf club first thing in a match. And It followed a 19 move pattern. and repeated itself.

g f g f g f t g f t g t g t f g t f t

Though when I restarted the game, it was a completely different pattern. I think the game randomly generates f smash patterns which will actually make it impossible to properly disect.

Click to expand...

How does stale move negation affect the fsmash, Toad, and turnips?

MenoUnderwater said:

Q1: Does the F-Smash decay? If it does, do the different clubs do it individually or as a group?
Yes, it does and they all decay as a group.

Q2: Does Toad decay?
Yes, he does.

Q3: Do turnips decay?
Yes, they do and as a group.

Click to expand...

Does the AT, Ledge Float Cancelling actually exist or is it a myth?

Rickerdy-doo-da-day said:

It does indeed exist. The mistake I've made (I apologise for this Niko xD) is misunderstanding when it has to be done
If you don't do it pretty much immediatly after grabbing the ledge, you won't get the invincibility frames when Floating back onto the stage. If you let the invincibility frames run out, you won't get them when Ledge Floating either.

I'm pretty sure this does exist now after going straight through one of Mario's fireballs in my tests when Ledge Floating. In Brawl, when characters have invincibility frames, they also flash white which is what Peach does when Ledge Floating correctly

Click to expand...

What can Peach do when she Grab Releases a character? Who can she force a Jump Release on and what guaranteed attacks can she follow up with upon a Ground/Jump Release?

Rickerdy-doo-da-day said:

Mario
- Can force Jump Release

Luigi
- Can force Jump Release

Peach
- N/A

Bowser
- N/A

Donkey Kong
- N/A

Diddy Kong
- N/A

Yoshi
- Can force Jump Release

Wario
- Can force Jump Release
- Upon Jump Release, Peach can follow up guaranteed (when performed correctly) with: Hyphen Up Smash, Footstool, Double hit Nair, Double hit Bair, Uair, Up Tilt, F Tilt
- If Wario loses his 2nd jump and is grabbed, Peach can infinite Jump Release and regrab him

Link
- N/A

Zelda
- N/A

:shiek: Sheik
- N/A

Ganondorf
- N/A

Toon Link
- Can force Jump Release

Samus
- N/A

Zero Suit Samus
- N/A

Pit
- N/A

Ice Climbers

- Can force Jump Release

R.O.B
- N/A

Kirby
- Can force Jump Release

Meta Knight
- Can force Jump Release

King DeDeDe
- N/A

Olimar
- Can force Jump Release

Fox
- N/A

Falco
- N/A

Wolf
- N/A

Captain Falcon
- N/A

Pikachu
- Can force Jump Release

Squirtle
- Can force Jump Release
- Upon Jump Release, Peach can follow up guaranteed (when performed correctly) with: Fair, Two hit Dash Attack, Dash regrab

Ivysaur
- Can force Jump Release

Charizard
-N/A

Lucario
- N/A

Jigglypuff
- Can force Jump Release

Marth
- N/A

Ike
- N/A

Ness
- Can force Jump Release
- Upon Ground Release, Peach can follow up guaranteed (when performed correctly) with: Fair, Jab, F Tilt, Dash attack, Dash regrab

Lucas
- Can force Jump Release
- Upon Ground Release, Peach can follow up guaranteed (when performed correctly) with: Jab, F Tilt, Dash Attack, Dash regrab

Mr. Game & Watch
- Can force Jump Release

Snake
- N/A

Sonic
- N/A

Click to expand...

Can the landing lag on Peach's Up Special (The Parasol) be avoided/eliminated?

MenoUnderwater said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU4rlwYFCdE

So yea, to cancel UpB landing lag, just slide of a ledge.

Click to expand...

Ganon's Upb has no hitstun - how can we take the best advantage?

Clai said:

As if giving us two virtually unusable moves (you know which ones I mean) wasn't enough, the Brawl developers had to give us a move that hurts us when we land it. Not only that, but its our recovery move as well, so its a move we have to use often (Apparently manly characters don't need hitstun to recover). The following list is all of the characters (in percent order) and what percents they can attack Ganondorf out of his up+B, as well as which attacks can do the trick. The bolded moves are the moves that are really going to ruin Ganon's day. Obviously B-moves are left out because aerials get you out of hitstun faster than B-moves.

Peach- 36% (Nair)

Click to expand...

Using the first three initial hits of dair, do we have any potential kill setups?

mountain_tiger said:

I remember asking about a potential set-up into USmash involving the first three hits of Dair. It turns out that USmash isn't possible, but you can get smaller follow-ups. Here's a link to the original thread I made:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=239271

Here are some of the main parts worth noting:

Taken from Yaay's list, here's the follow-ups that would be guaranteed:

0%: +1
Nothing is guaranteed, but a Jab will probably work.

50%: +3
Jab (hits on frame 2)

100%: +6
Jab (2)
Dash attack (6)
Ftilt (6)
Dsmash (6)
Grab (6)

150%: +8
Jab (2)
Nair (3)
Dash attack (6)
Ftilt (6)
Dsmash (6)
Grab (6)
UpB (8)

This could be very useful, because it allows Peach a guaranteed FTilt from around 100%+, and since it's got quite good killing power it might help us with our killing issues a bit. Getting a guaranteed Nair is also nice. At lower percents, you can slap to dash attack.

SDI shouldn't affect it since you can simply end the Dair early AND it sets up for USmash that way.

Click to expand...

Is there legit combo potential in Peach's uair string?

hotgarbage said:

Ground float uair -> ground float uair -> *repeat as many times as possible* -> full hop uair (usually) -> followup (nair/dj nair is good)

Video demonstration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF-pxIUO3gE

As I'm sure you can tell this is peach's most devastating combo string.

Click to expand...

Is there combo potential in decayed ftilts?

hotgarbage said:

Oh, I forgot to post this earlier. Ftilt at best will give you a +1 adv. The move simply has too much cooldown. So yeah, if you connect with ftilt -> ftilt it's because your opponent screwed up or you out-guessed them; not because it's guaranteed or anything.

Click to expand...

Pitch some good, testable questions and I'll add it to the list. Better yet, take a question and gather some data or do some testing. Come on Peaches, let's see what that button does.

GimR · Mar 24, 2009

MenoUnderwater said:
Does Peach have any 0-80% combos on a good part of the cast?

.

lol, maybe just maybe

Also. If you walk in one direction while holding a turnip and then pivot glidetoss in the oppisite direction(You have to press "A" to throw the turnip instead of using the C-Stick) you can regrab the turnip :chuckle:

It also Kind of acts like a wall in front of you since it's in your face the whole time.

Morrigan · Mar 24, 2009

Interesting thread.
There's something I wanna point out regarding turnip faces and pikmin. I don't know why they say they "recently" discovered that Pikmin-pluck is affected by the ground terrain if it says it ON THE MOTHEREFFING DOJO.

Sakurai said:
As long as there is ground beneath your feet, you can reach down and pull up a Pikmin, but be aware that certain Pikmin are more likely to appear in specific types of flooring.

Now, regarding turnips:

Sakurai said:
By the way, the face on the vegetable randomly changes.

Who trusts Sakurai anyway lol.

Airgemini · Mar 24, 2009

Awesome thread Meno.

For Peach's Turnips I remember reading something about the frame second and Turnips.. Perhaps different frame times affect what she pulls?

Also, Peach is awesome at planking. Her second jump is too good for it.

GimR · Mar 24, 2009

airgemini said:
Awesome thread Meno.

For Peach's Turnips I remember reading something about the frame second and Turnips.. Perhaps different frame times affect what she pulls?

Also, Peach is awesome at planking. Her second jump is too good for it.

It probably has something to do with the timer but since we don't know where to start look it will be really hard to find out.

Meru. · Mar 24, 2009

Can you Bair lock into something? Im kinda curious.

deepseadiva · Mar 25, 2009

Yaaay said:
Can you Bair lock into something? Im kinda curious.

As in bair lock to an upsmash for the KO? Or something to initiate the bair lock in the first place?

Villi · Mar 25, 2009

Murr... I think Peach ledge stalls arright. Let go and up air with left over invincibility and parasol right back on. Or fast fall off and let your parasol poke through the stage as you sweet spot.

Meru. · Mar 25, 2009

MenoUnderwater said:
As in bair lock to an upsmash for the KO? Or something to initiate the bair lock in the first place?

Like Zelda does with her D-tilt. D-tilt > Utilt, D-tilt > Dash attack, D-tilt > Grab etc. Bair Lock Combos, know what I mean?

Rickerdy-doo-da-day · Mar 25, 2009

Very nice thread

Here's one for you

Does the AT, Ledge Float Cancelling actually exist or is it a myth?
It does indeed exist. The mistake I've made (I apologise for this Niko xD) is misunderstanding when it has to be done
If you don't do it pretty much immediatly after grabbing the ledge, you won't get the invincibility frames when Floating back onto the stage. If you let the invincibility frames run out, you won't get them when Ledge Floating either.

I'm pretty sure this does exist now after going straight through one of Mario's fireballs in my tests when Ledge Floating. In Brawl, when characters have invincibility frames, they also flash white which is what Peach does when Ledge Floating correctly

So, yea, sorry Niko xD You were right about this after all

I'll look into other stuff when I get time

@Yaaay - Peach's weak Bair is the only thing that'll keep it going. If you want to continue the Bair lock, keep using the Bair. It can follow into things when you choose to end it by you running up to them and hitting them with something

Because of the forced stand up, you could technically follow up into anything. Bair Lock ---> F Smash, Bair Lock ---> Up Smash, Bair Lock ---> Dair...the choice is yours

Peachkid · Mar 25, 2009

peach for planking is kinda meh, can go either way...

if shes fighting somebody who cant do much about it then shes alright at it
if shes fighting a character with good anti planking options (lul wut?) then she flat out sucks at it

heres how i think peach can offensively plank

grab ledge
drop down
uair
up b
repeat

now im not sure that its fool proof but its something that could work...

GimR · Mar 25, 2009

Why are you guys trying to figure out the best way to Plank with peach?

That stuff's gonna be limited by the ledge grab rule in the next couple of months.

My tourney's already gonna have it.

Peachkid · Mar 25, 2009

God-is-my-Rock said:
Why are you guys trying to figure out the best way to Plank with peach?

That stuff's gonna be limited by the ledge grab rule in the next couple of months.

My tourney's already gonna have it.

well even though its gonna be banned very soon, why not put alittle time into finding if she has any sort of planking abilities... i mean its not like pointless. info is info after all

Villi · Mar 26, 2009

I'm opposed to planking, by definition, where one camps the ledge with every advantage to run the clock out. But effective ledge stalling is a viable strategy. If the Peach can with some safety allow himself extra time assess his situation, he can alleviate some of the strategical disadvantage he's already in by hanging on the ledge.

Marth, for example, can slash the ledge with a fair and sweet spot right after with his up b. It's difficult to punish and causes damage and knockback if the aggressor isn't careful. Because he can do this, it gives him a degree of control over the situation -- at least enough to recover back onto the stage less harassed than other characters.

deepseadiva · Mar 26, 2009

Rickerdy-doo-da-day said:
Peach's weak Bair is the only thing that'll keep it going.

Doesn't nair's other hit work as well?

Rickerdy-doo-da-day · Mar 26, 2009

MenoUnderwater said:
Doesn't nair's other hit work as well?

Yea it does (I forgot about that). And after a bit of testing, I managed to get a 'Nair' style Lock (only got 2 weak Nair hits max in though) going in Training mode xD It's stupid though and wouldn't work in a real match but I guess you could use it as an alternative to the weak Bair to begin with if you wanted to

I'm going to be looking into Turnips and terrain (I'll see how the Olimars did their Pikmin research for pointers) and I've got some other info which I'll post soon in which, whilst in no way new, will be interesting and helpful. Who knows

Meno, your new avatar(s) and sig are very nice indeed btw xD

Here's on for you. I know there is a way involving sliding off the ledge but I can't do it very well at all :x

Can the landing lag on Peach's Up Special (The Parasol) be avoided/eliminated?

deepseadiva · Mar 26, 2009

Thanks Rick.

Rickerdy-doo-da-day said:
I know there is a way involving sliding off the ledge but I can't do it very well at all :x

Can the landing lag on Peach's Up Special (The Parasol) be avoided/eliminated?

Yea! I'm seeing we're thinking on the same wavelength. I do it on occasion, and have had the intention to do some testing. I'm thinking it'll be similar to Peach-Bomber-ledge-cancelling Air was going on about.

Meru. · Mar 27, 2009

Rickerdy-doo-da-day said:
Can the landing lag on Peach's Up Special (The Parasol) be avoided/eliminated?

Mindgame with your parasol. Open and close, open and close. Works better than you think, at least, if you can do it well.

CPU lvl 9 does this all the time. And I keep falling for it =x

Morrigan · Mar 27, 2009

That doesn't reduce the landing lag.

Meru. · Mar 27, 2009

Ohh, lol, srry xp

I don't think there's a way to reduce the ending lag.

Rickerdy-doo-da-day · Mar 27, 2009

Here goes. I know this is nothing new but I really want to support this thread and keep it going and...well, you have to start somewhere

What can Peach do when she Grab Releases a character? Who can she force a Jump Release on and what guaranteed attacks can she follow up with upon a Ground/Jump Release?

Note: Forcing Ground Releases are not mentioned because everyone can be released on the ground if you pummel whilst holding onto your opponent

Mario
- Can force Jump Release

Luigi
- Can force Jump Release

Peach
- N/A

Bowser
- N/A

Donkey Kong
- N/A

Diddy Kong
- N/A

Yoshi
- Can force Jump Release

Wario
- Can force Jump Release
- Upon Jump Release, Peach can follow up guaranteed (when performed correctly) with: Hyphen Up Smash, Footstool, Double hit Nair, Double hit Bair, Uair, Up Tilt, F Tilt
- If Wario loses his 2nd jump and is grabbed, Peach can infinite Jump Release and regrab him

Link
- N/A

Zelda
- N/A

:shiek: Sheik
- N/A

Ganondorf
- N/A

Toon Link
- Can force Jump Release

Samus
- N/A

Zero Suit Samus
- N/A

Pit
- N/A

Ice Climbers

- Can force Jump Release

R.O.B
- N/A

Kirby
- Can force Jump Release

Meta Knight
- Can force Jump Release

:dedede:

King DeDeDe
- N/A

Olimar
- Can force Jump Release

Fox
- N/A

Falco
- N/A

Wolf
- N/A

Captain Falcon
- N/A

Pikachu
- Can force Jump Release

Squirtle
- Can force Jump Release
- Upon Jump Release, Peach can follow up guaranteed (when performed correctly) with: Two hit Dash Attack, Dash regrab

Ivysaur
- Can force Jump Release

Charizard
-N/A

Lucario
- N/A

Jigglypuff
- Can force Jump Release

Marth
- N/A

Ike
- N/A

Ness
- Can force Jump Release
- Upon Ground Release, Peach can follow up guaranteed (when performed correctly) with: Jab, F Tilt, Dash attack, Dash regrab
- Upon Jump Release, Peach can follow up guaranteed (when performed correctly) with: Fair

Lucas
- Can force Jump Release
- Upon Ground Release, Peach can follow up guaranteed (when performed correctly) with: Jab, F Tilt, Dash Attack, Dash regrab

Mr. Game & Watch
- Can force Jump Release

Snake
- N/A

Sonic
- N/A

I want to look into a few things, mainly to see if Kirby can be hit with a Fair (very unlikely) and whether anything on Ness/Lucas is wrong. Also, I'm interested if anything can be followed up when Jump Releasing Ivysaur. Oh and I'm not too sure if the Squirtle infinite regrab thing works on not (Edrees said it did, I'm not sure it does but I'm still testing, I think Edrees is probably right though)

It's disapointing that Peach can force a Jump Release on a lot of characters and not be able to follow up with anything

deepseadiva · Mar 27, 2009

Nice Rick.

Rickerdy-doo-da-day said:
It's disapointing that Peach can force a Jump Release on a lot of characters and not be able to follow up with anything

While I know it's not guaranteed, would an unexpected jump release place characters for an usmash?

Mikey Lenetia · Mar 27, 2009

Hm... Looking at some of the characters that a jump release can be forced on, Peach would be able to force some bad situations in teams if their partner was indisposed or recovering. Especially with characters she can't do something on, all she'd need is a powerful teammate that can hold their own and they can try hitting with a powerful hit. Say if Snake, who can hold his own against Meta, teamed and she got a grab on him, Snake could use one of his more likely-to-be-fresh aerials to possibly get a kill on him.

Singles... Aside from positioning of her opponents, I really can't think of anything she can do aside from baiting them to react wrongly while trying to land. Aside from guarantees, maybe she can put them up on a platform to make them have to try and sneak down against her powerful usmash or wide-ranged utilt, or buy her time for a turnip or to get away?

Rickerdy-doo-da-day · Mar 28, 2009

It's quite possible. For example, Kirby can only narrowly avoid a full jump Fair (with a bit of running) after being grab release (I think). If he does something wrong, he'll be eating the Fair

I'm going to try and see if I can spot any patterns in Turnip pulls soon. I'm not sure what method I should use to get ratios though

My initial thought was to pull out 100 and tally them down like the Olimar's did for their Pikmin but now, I'm thinking of pulling up 58 Turnips and starting over (since we know Peach has a 1/58 chance of pulling up a stitchface) I think I'll pull up x number of Turnips in succession and then save a replay incase time affects the pull chance. I'll see what I can do

MrEh · Mar 28, 2009

MenoUnderwater said:
While I know it's not guaranteed, would an unexpected jump release place characters for an usmash?

Even Bowser can't do that. If you tried that with Bowser, your opponent would have so much time to evade. Peach doesn't even come close. Unless your opponent has extremely slow reflexes. lol

Ness
- Can force Jump Release
- Upon Ground Release, Peach can follow up guaranteed (when performed correctly) with: Jab, F Tilt, Dash attack, Dash regrab
- Upon Jump Release, Peach can follow up guranteed (when performed correctly) with: Fair

Doesn't work. Fair takes 16 frames to come out, and it takes 6 frames to jump. That's 22 frames. Ness regains control at frame 20, so can avoid the Fair.

Rickerdy-doo-da-day · Mar 28, 2009

Darn it, I knew I'd gone wrong somewhere. I was hoping you'd pop along and check stuff for me

Ness still only has 2 frames to avoid the Fair though. His airdodge comes out on frame 4 so that wouldn't help him (right?) and I don't think any of his aerials would work either if peach had spaced the Fair. Do you reckon Ness could move in the air/jump away in time to avoid the Fair?

I'll amend my table and tell Meno. Thanks again. be sure to point out any other mistakes I might have made

MrEh · Mar 28, 2009

Rickerdy-doo-da-day said:
Ness still only has 2 frames to avoid the Fair though. His airdodge comes out on frame 4 so that wouldn't help him (right?) and I don't think any of his aerials would work either if peach had spaced the Fair. Do you reckon Ness could move in the air/jump away in time to avoid the Fair?

Assuming that you jump on the first possible frame...

Do you have to do any running in order to get this to work?

Rickerdy-doo-da-day · Mar 28, 2009

No, I'm very certain that you don't have to run. The timing is incredibly strict...but again, I'm still not sure. I'd be very grateful if you could test this more for me MrEh since you're the expert in this field of work

What I'm doing is grab releasing, then using a full jump and Fair and adding movement in after jumping...they both have to be used at pretty much exactly the same time (I keep accidently doing stutter step F Smashes xD). There's no running invovled

I have no idea if it's escapable or not :/ it probably is knowing my luck

MrEh · Mar 28, 2009

Rickerdy-doo-da-day said:
No, I'm very certain that you don't have to run. The timing is incredibly strict...but again, I'm still not sure. I'd be very grateful if you could test this more for me MrEh since you're the expert in this field of work

What I'm doing is grab releasing, then using a full jump and Fair and adding movement in after jumping...they both have to be used at pretty much exactly the same time (I keep accidently doing stutter step F Smashes xD). There's no running invovled

I have no idea if it's escapable or not :/ it probably is knowing my luck

I'll test this fully, so no worries. So you basically have to use a full jump and use your Fair in the first possible frame. Sort of like Bowser's Uair grab release....

Sounds possible. I'll get back to you on this. lol

ExCeL 52 · Mar 28, 2009

Guys, my F-tilt just spiked a Bowser at like mid damage... Look into this?

Morrigan · Mar 28, 2009

DI.10directions

Airgemini · Mar 28, 2009

Dekuu said:
DI.10directions

You can't spike yourself by DIing downwards. When you get spiked you get launched down relatively fast, you can't launch yourself downwards like that by DIing down from an Ftilt.

If you DIed downwards you would just go down slowly depending on the character he's talking about.

There've been past mentions about this before Excel, maybe you can search for them to see if they might help?

Morrigan · Mar 28, 2009

It's just that everything "weird" without any reasonable explanation in Brawl in the end just happens to be because of the DI.

deepseadiva · Mar 28, 2009

ExCeL 52 said:
Guys, my F-tilt just spiked a Bowser at like mid damage... Look into this?

I agree with Dekuu. Peach having a "hidden" spike has been said for a lot of things and usually ends up being DI.

My guess it was prolly a stage spike, or he Bowser Bomber without you noticing. Details?

Airgemini · Mar 29, 2009

Are you sure all types of Turnips decay each time you use it? I remember a couple of times getting a stitchface and having it be fresh despite how many times I used Turnips earlier in the match....

Also an interesting thought came to mind, does Mr.Saturn, Beamsword, Bomb refresh her moves? And when you use it more than once (Mr.Saturn, Beamsword) does it decay her Turnips? I know using items that spawn out of no where have no decay effect but maybe it's different with her Down B?

Morrigan · Mar 29, 2009

That last part is interesting. I don't know how the game treats her Down B + items. I would assume that the bomb and Saturn are treated as items you could just pick up if items were on, but I don't know about the sword, since she's holding it in a weird way.

These are just assumptions.

deepseadiva · Mar 29, 2009

airgemini said:
Also an interesting thought came to mind, does Mr.Saturn, Beamsword, Bomb refresh her moves? And when you use it more than once (Mr.Saturn, Beamsword) does it decay her Turnips? I know using items that spawn out of no where have no decay effect but maybe it's different with her Down B?

Random spawn items do have decay - it's a common misinformation.

I'm also positive all normal turnip faces decay together - stichies, and the other items might be diffrent though...

Morrigan · Mar 29, 2009

The items' strenght decay, but do they refresh your moveset?

deepseadiva · Mar 31, 2009

Look what I made, which YouTube decided to hack at my quality!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU4rlwYFCdE

Yays, it got an HQ button finally. :D

So yea, to cancel UpB landing lag, just slide of a ledge.

Canvasofgrey · Mar 31, 2009

Oooo, nice find Meno, though it's not all the time where you are safe to get on a ledge to cancel, but still, it's awesome. XD

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