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All Character matchup-unofficial

KAOSTAR

KAOSTAR

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Start with this chart as a reference (props to Phanna).
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=92025

Fox
No unnecessary banter: Lets get straight through the matchups as smoothly and accurately as possible.
This Post is to get the matchup chart updated without disturbing the discussion of the current one. I would expect that once we have made our way and discussed each character this thread be locked and closed.

The plan is to go character by character following the current tier list. So starting with Fox and discussion on the matchup for marth all the way down to pichu. Then do the same for marth and work our way down skipping dittos and repeats.

We will fill in the data as we go.

Things to consider:

This is based on a 9 game set.
0-9=Disadvantage
1-8
2-7
3-6
4-5
EVEN
5-4
6-3
7-2
8-1
9-0=Advantage
This is an overall final matchup based on the neutral stages.
FD, FOD, Yoshis, Battlefield, Dreamland, pokemon Stadium

Fox vs Fox: [Even] Player with more skill should win.

Fox vs Marth:
Fox vs Sheik:
Fox vs Falco:
Fox vs Peach:
Fox vs C. Falcon:
Fox vs Jigglypuff:
Fox vs Ice Climbers:
Fox vs Samus:
Fox vs Dr. Mario:
Fox vs Ganondorf:
Fox vs Luigi:
Fox vs Donkey Kong:
Fox vs Mario:
Fox vs Link:
Fox vs Pikachu:
Fox vs Young Link:
Fox vs Roy:
Fox vs Zelda:
Fox vs Mr. G & W:
Fox vs Ness:
Fox vs Yoshi:
Fox vs Bowser:
Fox vs Mewtwo:
Fox vs Kirby:
Fox vs Pichu:
 
Eaode

Eaode

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Fox vs Falcon in definitely in fox's favor, but not too overwhelmingly so.
Fox has the Shine (which is autocombo with falcon's traction), and the upthrow which chaingrabs very well and leads into combos at higher %s. The shine is an amazing gimp tool and falcon's recovery is one of the most gimpable in the game.

That being said, when fox hits the ground vs a good falcon, high levels of **** can follow. Falcon's techchase game is amazing, and with simple effective setups like the stomp, raptor boost and grabs, taking the stock becomes a matter of prediction.

Overall I'd say it's around 7-3 for fox, maybe a tad lower depending on levels of fanboyism.

Honestly I have more trouble with Falco than Fox, but that might just be me.


EDIT: Now giving opinion on Fox vs Roy, (because I play this match with my teams partner a lot)

Fox vs. Roy is definitely a lot easier for fox, but if he doesn't watch his step he's in trouble. Roy's recovery is bad so gimps are powerful here, and he's a nice combo bag for fox, (even though shine won't combo it's a great and quick way to neutralize a situation and give you the positional advantage.) Often times Fox's superior speed let's him play the game of reaction, dashing around and Faking Roy out until he can make a very speedy approach. In this way fox puts the pressure on Roy and forces him to use a safe move such as Dtilt or well-spaced fairs, and trying to bait you into a grab or >B.

Once fox has his options limited, it's just a matter of caution. Fox needs to get in there and ****, but getting nailed by one Dtilt, Fair, or grab means massive damage (and maybe death) for fox.

In conclusion, Fox definitely has the upper hand, but at the same time must apply aggression carefully. As for a ratio I'd say maybe 8-2? I'm having a hard time putting the thought into a number.


EDIT2: Just realized you might just be doing Fox vs. Marth right now, but w/e, my opinions are still here, will repost later in need be.
 
Magik0722

Magik0722

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What stages should we account for this, because stages can drastically change the matchup, ie Marth vs Fox on FD
 
KAOSTAR

KAOSTAR

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OK thanks.

Fox vs marth.

Id say this is a fairly even match. Both characters have their strong suits whereas marth likes to control the stage and fox like room to run. The thing that will sway it the most is probably the stage.

Final Destination: marth can 0 to death fox off one grab.

Yoshi's Story: he can uptilt off the platforms and Fsmash off the lower two. Fox can upthrow u air and upsmash and get kills at relatively low percent by using the top platform along with the low ceiling.

Dreamland: Id give fox the advantage here. With good DI marth will have a hard time getting the Fsmash kill and if the fox is smart about not getting gimped, this can be a victory for fox. Marth is still light so Usmash and Uthrow>Uair along with the shine should be effective. Also fox has a better recovery. Its easy to miss the Uthrow tech onto the top platform and get Uaired.

FOD: I feel this can go both ways. Fox always has his tools and can weave in and out of the platforms. Also a low percent vertical kill off the top platform can hurt.

Pokestadium: Pretty even match. Has platforms, and enough open space
Overall Id say this is an EVEN matchup. Watch out for fox infinites. Both characters have the proper space to work at full potential.

Battlefield: This stage is small and gives fox alot less room to run. Marth can control the platforms and get gimp kills.
 
ILoveRice

ILoveRice

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Hey kaos cant you just look in each char board and just put that in here..? lol o_o since most char boards have char match ups

but anyways

Please feel free to correct me if you want

Falco vs Fox
( i saw on a board its 60%-40% falco i agree with it)

4-5

Final Des: Fox has the advantage since he can chain grab falco so bad in this map and since its so wide open all he can do is just DI and hope fox messes up. But if fox doesnt get the chain grab Falco can just Pillar him.

Yoshi Story: I think the platforms help out falco plus he can gimp fox but that does not mean fox can do the same.

Dreamland: The platforms help falco out in this map, plus its a high ceiling, upsmash and u-air wont kill falco as fast

FOD: Well falco's lasering wont be as well in this matchup but other than that its about the same

Pokestadium:..?
 
KAOSTAR

KAOSTAR

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yea but this is a centralized discussion for one goal. I thought about doing that but also that might be harder to get everyone in one place. and some boards are less active. There isnt an updated character chart so This is an attempt to make one. Ive got some time on my hands and well see what happens.

not to mention this is on one matchup at a time. that way we can answer and move on and get a good discussion
 
ILoveRice

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oh alright ill try to help you out even though im not that great with match up's since i dont really have that much experience.
 
KAOSTAR

KAOSTAR

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Thats fine Im taking everything into consideration. just post what you think on the matchup in as much detail as you can. try to be clear and concise.

I just made this today so i think that more ppl will post unless it gets closed.
 
KAOSTAR

KAOSTAR

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Cosmo!

Cosmo!

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Fox vs Fox: 5-5
Fox vs Marth: 5-5
Fox vs Sheik: 5-5
Fox vs Falco: 5-5
Fox vs Peach: 6-4
Fox vs C. Falcon: 6-4
Fox vs Jigglypuff: 6-4
Fox vs Ice Climbers: 6-4
Fox vs Samus: 6-4
Fox vs Dr. Mario: 6-4
Fox vs Ganondorf: 7-3
Fox vs Luigi: 6-4
Fox vs Donkey Kong: 6-4
Fox vs Mario: 6-4
Fox vs Link: 8-2
Fox vs Pikachu: 7-3
Fox vs Young Link: 8-2
Fox vs Roy: 7-3
Fox vs Zelda: 9-1
Fox vs Mr. G & W: 7-3
Fox vs Ness: 9-1
Fox vs Yoshi: 7-3
Fox vs Bowser: 9-1
Fox vs Mewtwo: 8-2
Fox vs Kirby: 9-1
Fox vs Pichu: 8-2
 
pockyD

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i can probably count the number of people qualified to decide such relevant values (as if something like "7-3" even means anything numerically) that regularly post here on one hand

And no, I personally am not qualified either
 
Eaode

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Obviously pros have more experience and should be the opinions that carry more weight. And they should come to this thread and do just that. But I don't see the shame in more intermediate players, who aren't pros (like myself and others) giving their opinions as well. Notice I also restrained myself and only posted my opinions of matchups I have a lot of experience in.

I don't see the problem. If you want pros to put their opinions into this, link them to this thread. how else would you suggest it get done? Updating this chart will hopefully get smashers involved and strengthen the Melee community a little so I don't see the point in bashing this thread because pros haven't posted yet.
 
Eaode

Eaode

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C!Z said:
This thread has nothin to do with strengthening the community. If you wanna get good practice.
Click to expand...
.... Reading comprehension? When I say strengthen the community, I mean make the melee community come out and participate in this project, help it out, reveal more knowledge of matchups, and make the melee community more active as a whole.

Obviously posting opinions about a chart isn't going to make any individual player better >_<;
 
C

C!Z

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All right dudette you win. All you good, cool players can tear this thread up and make it the best thread SWF has ever seen.
 
worldjem7

worldjem7

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I've been meaning to do this as well but, I don't think your form of measurement is optimal.

What I've been trying to do is something similar to what the Street Fighter community has been doing where you measure each matchup by how many games they'd win if they fought 10 times in a row.

Ex: Falco vs DK: Falco would win 10 games and DK would win 0.

Except I think we should do it out of 100 for better accuracy and eliminating decimals because I sometimes hear people saying 55-45 and such.

One would then write it on the chart as such and give them a rating based on the sum of all the matchups subtracted by the number of characters times 50 (which means even).
So on an excel spreadsheet it would look like this:

=SUM(B2:AA2)-26*50

where B2-AA2 are all the matchups for one character (left of the chart) and 50 represents all the even matchups so a character would get extra points for having more advantageous matchups.

Here's an example:


The number under "Rating" is the combined amount of all the extra games he'd won in his more favourable matchups. So, a 6-4 would give him 1 point towards his rating and a 7-3 would give him 2 points because you're subtracting the even matchup part of it which is 5.

I want to do this with smash. I have an excel spreadsheet already written up, I just need to fill it in with all the different matchups and I can create an equivalent to what Street Fighter has.

I've been trying to contact Cactuar and other pros but, I haven't been able to talk to them long enough to get a solid number down for the chart.

I emplore pros such as M2K, Cactuar, Scar, Darkrain, and others that I can't think of right now to help update the matchup chart.
 
worldjem7

worldjem7

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They're more pro than you or I...

I'm basically just asking for knowledgeable players to help fill the chart. It doesn't matter what skill level they are relative to each other. You don't have to be good at the game to be knowledgeable of the game.
 
KAOSTAR

KAOSTAR

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worldjem7 said:
They're more pro than you or I...

I'm basically just asking for knowledgeable players to help fill the chart. It doesn't matter what skill level they are relative to each other. You don't have to be good at the game to be knowledgeable of the game.
Click to expand...
What hes is saying is that tier is two players of equal skill, characters dont beat eachother players do.

like you can take mango's puff vs any character and jiggz would be at the top of the tier.

You cant do it based on who beats who because the players arent of equal skill.

Its merely a rating of characters and their potential matchups not a win chart
 
rhan

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I'll contribute my knowledge when it's a character I know how to play. I'm a horrible Fox.

Edit: Oh. Most matches (ex: Fox vs Marth) are very stage dependant. Like Fox can have advantages at a certain stage that Marth can't. Just take that into consideration.
 
worldjem7

worldjem7

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KAOSTAR said:
What hes is saying is that tier is two players of equal skill, characters dont beat eachother players do.

like you can take mango's puff vs any character and jiggz would be at the top of the tier.

You cant do it based on who beats who because the players arent of equal skill.

Its merely a rating of characters and their potential matchups not a win chart
Click to expand...
I think you're both confused as to what a Match-Up chart really entails.

Match-up charts are based off unrealistic, even-skilled players using different characters to see who would win more to determine the numeric value between the two, called a "Match-Up."

In fact, Phanna's original chart was between two players of equal skill facing off in a set of best of 9 and determining the match-ups like that.

0-5
1-5
2-5
3-5
4-5
even

and so on...

So, in a way, I guess a Match-up chart is like a "win chart." It gives you an idea at how good you need to be with a certain character in order to win tournament matches with that character.

All I was suggesting in my earlier post was a simpler way of doing it; instead of "best of 9" just make it "10 games flat" and see who would win most because then we get a percent value.

Ex.: 3/10 = 30%

Making it easier to measure.

If you keep bringing in realistic scenarios and say "well it won't work because players aren't equal" then you're not going to get anywhere making a match-up chart.

Obviously, if I get good enough with Pikachu I can beat good people, but that's not what a Match-up chart is about at all. A match-up chart helps you find how good Pikachu actually is in order to find out why I would lose so much with him as opposed to if I played Sheik or Fox.
 
HT F8

HT F8

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worldjem7 said:
****
Click to expand...
QFT.<3
You good kids need to do work on this cause it's SO helpful.
This will take away a lot of the same "HOW DO I BEAT FOX WITH MARTH" threads that are in every "Ask ____ ____ Questions" thread.

If I was remotely good I'd help but sadly... I suck. LOL.
 
Eaode

Eaode

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we just need knowledgeable people to actually turn out here <_<;

Someone should just chain-PM all the pros and link them to this thread lol. Or better yet, create threads in character discussion and link them to those, because it's a waste to be discussing Fox and have Scar there ready to contribute but have to wait for Falcon, for example.
 
KAOSTAR

KAOSTAR

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worldjem7 said:
I think you're both confused as to what a Match-Up chart really entails.

Match-up charts are based off unrealistic, even-skilled players using different characters to see who would win more to determine the numeric value between the two, called a "Match-Up."

In fact, Phanna's original chart was between two players of equal skill facing off in a set of best of 9 and determining the match-ups like that.
Click to expand...
You just agreed with me after telling me I was wrong.

The point I was making is that you are incorrect in thinking that win percentages from tourneys are going to be the deciding factor in a melee matchup chart.

Some players are just on different planes when it comes to skill. It is a theoretical battle between to characters of equal skill, and those speculations determine the percentages in the matchup such as even or 4-5. Tournaments play and results are equivalent to data the speculations are based on but they dont create the chart on their own. The process is similar in creating the tier list.
 
worldjem7

worldjem7

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KAOSTAR said:
You just agreed with me after telling me I was wrong.

The point I was making is that you are incorrect in thinking that win percentages from tourneys are going to be the deciding factor in a melee matchup chart.

Some players are just on different planes when it comes to skill. It is a theoretical battle between to characters of equal skill, and those speculations determine the percentages in the matchup such as even or 4-5. Tournaments play and results are equivalent to data the speculations are based on but they dont create the chart on their own. The process is similar in creating the tier list.
Click to expand...
What in the world...? I never mentioned anything about win percentages in tourneys, or even tourneys in general.

I'm not arguing with you anymore.

Completely unrelated and out of curiosity: are you religious?
 
KAOSTAR

KAOSTAR

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worldjem7 said:
What in the world...? I never mentioned anything about win percentages in tourneys, or even tourneys in general.

I'm not arguing with you anymore.

Completely unrelated and out of curiosity: are you religious?
Click to expand...
Thought u were saying that based off the win percentages of the pros in tourney to make the chart.

I assumed that since you setup your post like you had any sort of opposition-sayin we should do this instead of this that you were proposing a new method for a matchup chart.

dont worry about it tho.
 
worldjem7

worldjem7

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Nooooooooooooooooo no no.

That's not what I was saying at all.

I was just trying to show that using 10 games total instead of a best of 9 would make it easier to measure because it gives you at easy number to internalize to a % value.

The only thing I was proposing to do different is to change from using a best of 9 to play 10 games total.

Using 10 games total gives out even match-ups better too because in a best of 9 someone has to win.

I hope I cleared that up.
 
KAOSTAR

KAOSTAR

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worldjem7 said:
Nooooooooooooooooo no no.

That's not what I was saying at all.

I was just trying to show that using 10 games total instead of a best of 9 would make it easier to measure because it gives you at easy number to internalize to a % value.

The only thing I was proposing to do different is to change from using a best of 9 to play 10 games total.

Using 10 games total gives out even match-ups better too because in a best of 9 someone has to win.

I hope I cleared that up.
Click to expand...
lol, my friend u see it goes. Some one does need to win. Plus the old one was out of 9. maybe ten is better but 9 give more official looking percents 0-9=Disadvantage 1-8 2-7 3-6 4-5 EVEN 5-4 6-3 7-2 8-1 9-0=Advantage
 
worldjem7

worldjem7

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In a best of 9 when both players each win four games to make it 4-4, one more game needs to be played to make it 9 or else it's just 8 games. 9 only looks better to you because of phanna's chart; it's the first, and probably only, kind of measurement you've seen until I said something.

If someone needs to win in a match-up measurement process then there would be no even match-ups.
There needs to be a tie. What do you think "even" means?

Anyway, I've made the thread already. If you have something to contribute to it, post there.
 
KAOSTAR

KAOSTAR

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Its not the first matchup thread Ive seen. Just followed the same format since there was nothing wrong with it. Its alot easier to do a matchup out of 9 than 100. dont need to get that accurate for something like this.

post a link to it.
 
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