itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
You can also call it the "how to zone effectively" thread because it's the exact same thing.
DK has three places where he likes to keep his opponents
1. air to air with dk's back facing the other character (<3 bair)
2. directly above him (utilt, uair and usmash all have good range and are decent threats)
3. a short patch of ground that is out of range of their moves while in range of downb and possibly ftilt/dtilt/upb/grab (character specific)
since most camping characters want to avoid the first two at all costs, they're probably going to stick to the ground, so we'll work with the 3rd one for the most part (though wario will not be camping you on the ground, he'll be covered separately)
so, you want to get them into downb range on the ground, without taking too much damage, this is done through a combination of walking and shielding. It's a technique I call "walk up and don't get hit". most of the time jumping in with bairs will get you *****, but we'll get to that later.
so, now you're in downb range, hopefully you didn't take too much damage, now what? that's where it starts to get character specific. Your spacing game is your best approach, stick with it, it works really well.
I'll start with olimar since I here a lot of olimar johns, when I really don't have problems with the matchup.
For all of characters rolls are punished with utilt/dsmash/grab/downb, shield is punished with downb/grab/dtilt/upb and spotdodge is punished with dtilt/downb/upb
Olimar
You want to keep him just outside of his grab range
What he can do: throw pikmin, grab, try for a smash, jump in fair, run away
NOTE: purple pikmin throw can mess with your spacing, be careful when a purple is next, and try to kill the purples if possible (don't get hit killing pikmin though). basically purples are *******s.
Grabs and pikmin throws will be most common, if you are spacing well he will be out of grab range and likely throwing pikmin.
What you can do: downb, running upb, grab, tilts
Downb should be used occasionally as a threat, upb should be used a lot
downb will beat both grab and smashes but loses to pikmin throw (kinda) and fairs, running upb will beat throwing pikmin, fairs and smashes but loses to grabs, grab (shield grab and pivot grab) will beat jump in fair (shieldgrab) and pikmin throw (pivot grab), but loses to smashes, tilts are all situational and dependent on the tilt
so how do you know what to do? simple, let him make the first move.
If he jumps, immediately either run in and upb, or if he is close ftilt/shieldgrab (doesn't matter)
If he stays on the ground and throws pikmin, run up to him, he will either run away or stand still, if he runs away, he's going for a pivot grab, downb him. if he stands still he doesn't know the matchup, just upb him or pivot grab
if he runs towards you he is going for a grab, either dtilt or downb depending on how much time you have. dtilt is probably the best choice (though he might be tricky and run - shield/roll or something) just remind him you have the downb in your pocket from time to time. if you dtilt him go for a grab or downb afterwards
if he stands still and does nothing, downb him
now, I know skank is going to read this and say "why wouldn't olimar just run away and go back to camping?" he can do that maybe once or twice, but then he runs out of stage room and winds up in a worse position. (exact same position but with his back to the edge)
now, why wouldn't he jump over you? simple, he doesn't like being above you, just stay right under him and either shieldgrab or utilt him, maybe jumping bairs if you want. Oli likes being on the ground, so he won't try jumping over you.
so what do you do when you connect?
upb - if he DI's up he's above you, mission accomplished, if he DI's away follow it up with a grab or downb when he lands
downb - he's above you, gj
grab - throw him off the edge, if you are stuck in the middle of fd a bthrow will work
dtilt - follow up with a grab/second dtilt/downb
ftilt - resets the position, but you might have enough time for a grab at low %
object of the game is to force him aerial or off the ledge and play your game from there.
Lucas
You want to keep him at max ftilt range
Why lucas? because it isn't hard to beat his camp game and I can finish the write up pretty easily
What he can do: jump in nair, pk fire, pivot grab, smash
nair and pk fire will be the most common tactics
What you can do: shield, ftilt, downb, grab
you'll use a lot of shield and ftilt
again, get into range, threaten a downb and react
if he jumps at all, ftilt him out of the air
if he stays on the ground and pk fires, shield and punish accordingly (grabs will probably be best)
if he runs away he either resets it but with him closer to the ledge, or he's going for a pivot grab/pk fire, follow just out of range of the pivot grab and you should be fine.
he may go for shield grabs, but downb/grab both work for that
he'll occasionally mix in a smash, but you should be fine if you stick to your range.
what do you do when you connect?
ftilt - keep zoning him, maybe grab if he DIs in oris at a low %
grab - grab release his ***, grab release dsmash or throw him off the stage if the regrab is banned
downb - chase him, punish him with grabs and smashes
rest is up to you.
Falco
Falco is a bit of a pain because the downb doesn't really work well due to his sideb, and he doesn't mind being above you as much as other characters. so, you have to zone him from a different location, and punish him differently unless he is on battlefield/lylat where the platforms help you out.
The zone where you want to keep falco is pretty weird, and my term for it wouldn't make sense to you, so I'll borrow hugs's term. you want to keep him just out of range of a dash attack.
also, his reactions will change depending on your %
What he can do
At any %: laser, sideb, nair/dair
At low %: grab
At mid %: running attack into usmash
At high %: Boost usmash
Likely to grab at low %, laser and sideb whenever he feels like it
What you can do: shield grab, upb, dtilt, utilt
At low %: downb
if you shield an up smash: shieldgrab/dsmash
you want to grab, a lot.
Ok, now your in the proper zone, what do you do?
if he lasers (shdl) - Run in as soon as he jumps and shield, when he lands, grab him, you can also upb him at lower% for more damage
if he sidebs - roll backwards to dodge the sideb, grab/upb
if he goes for a grab - downb
if he goes for an aerial - shield grab or utilt
if he runs at you - dtilt, shield/upb if you know it's a dash attack/usmash
ok, now you now what?
if you grab him
At low %: dthrow into upb
Past low %: throw him off stage
If you upb him
pre 60%: read his DI, if he went up shield grab his landing, if he didn't just grab him anyway thanks to his weird falling animation
Past 60%: don't upb him past 60, it just resets the stage and you could have grabbed him instead
if you dtilt (only for grab attempts at low %) link it to a grab or downb
if you downb (olny for grab attempts/rolls/spotdodges): tech chase if he lands on a platform, otherwise try to shield grab the landing
if you utilt either utilt again or pivot grab him.
grabs are important because it gets him off stage, grab a lot.
DK has three places where he likes to keep his opponents
1. air to air with dk's back facing the other character (<3 bair)
2. directly above him (utilt, uair and usmash all have good range and are decent threats)
3. a short patch of ground that is out of range of their moves while in range of downb and possibly ftilt/dtilt/upb/grab (character specific)
since most camping characters want to avoid the first two at all costs, they're probably going to stick to the ground, so we'll work with the 3rd one for the most part (though wario will not be camping you on the ground, he'll be covered separately)
so, you want to get them into downb range on the ground, without taking too much damage, this is done through a combination of walking and shielding. It's a technique I call "walk up and don't get hit". most of the time jumping in with bairs will get you *****, but we'll get to that later.
so, now you're in downb range, hopefully you didn't take too much damage, now what? that's where it starts to get character specific. Your spacing game is your best approach, stick with it, it works really well.
I'll start with olimar since I here a lot of olimar johns, when I really don't have problems with the matchup.
For all of characters rolls are punished with utilt/dsmash/grab/downb, shield is punished with downb/grab/dtilt/upb and spotdodge is punished with dtilt/downb/upb
Olimar
You want to keep him just outside of his grab range
What he can do: throw pikmin, grab, try for a smash, jump in fair, run away
NOTE: purple pikmin throw can mess with your spacing, be careful when a purple is next, and try to kill the purples if possible (don't get hit killing pikmin though). basically purples are *******s.
Grabs and pikmin throws will be most common, if you are spacing well he will be out of grab range and likely throwing pikmin.
What you can do: downb, running upb, grab, tilts
Downb should be used occasionally as a threat, upb should be used a lot
downb will beat both grab and smashes but loses to pikmin throw (kinda) and fairs, running upb will beat throwing pikmin, fairs and smashes but loses to grabs, grab (shield grab and pivot grab) will beat jump in fair (shieldgrab) and pikmin throw (pivot grab), but loses to smashes, tilts are all situational and dependent on the tilt
so how do you know what to do? simple, let him make the first move.
If he jumps, immediately either run in and upb, or if he is close ftilt/shieldgrab (doesn't matter)
If he stays on the ground and throws pikmin, run up to him, he will either run away or stand still, if he runs away, he's going for a pivot grab, downb him. if he stands still he doesn't know the matchup, just upb him or pivot grab
if he runs towards you he is going for a grab, either dtilt or downb depending on how much time you have. dtilt is probably the best choice (though he might be tricky and run - shield/roll or something) just remind him you have the downb in your pocket from time to time. if you dtilt him go for a grab or downb afterwards
if he stands still and does nothing, downb him
now, I know skank is going to read this and say "why wouldn't olimar just run away and go back to camping?" he can do that maybe once or twice, but then he runs out of stage room and winds up in a worse position. (exact same position but with his back to the edge)
now, why wouldn't he jump over you? simple, he doesn't like being above you, just stay right under him and either shieldgrab or utilt him, maybe jumping bairs if you want. Oli likes being on the ground, so he won't try jumping over you.
so what do you do when you connect?
upb - if he DI's up he's above you, mission accomplished, if he DI's away follow it up with a grab or downb when he lands
downb - he's above you, gj
grab - throw him off the edge, if you are stuck in the middle of fd a bthrow will work
dtilt - follow up with a grab/second dtilt/downb
ftilt - resets the position, but you might have enough time for a grab at low %
object of the game is to force him aerial or off the ledge and play your game from there.
Lucas
You want to keep him at max ftilt range
Why lucas? because it isn't hard to beat his camp game and I can finish the write up pretty easily
What he can do: jump in nair, pk fire, pivot grab, smash
nair and pk fire will be the most common tactics
What you can do: shield, ftilt, downb, grab
you'll use a lot of shield and ftilt
again, get into range, threaten a downb and react
if he jumps at all, ftilt him out of the air
if he stays on the ground and pk fires, shield and punish accordingly (grabs will probably be best)
if he runs away he either resets it but with him closer to the ledge, or he's going for a pivot grab/pk fire, follow just out of range of the pivot grab and you should be fine.
he may go for shield grabs, but downb/grab both work for that
he'll occasionally mix in a smash, but you should be fine if you stick to your range.
what do you do when you connect?
ftilt - keep zoning him, maybe grab if he DIs in oris at a low %
grab - grab release his ***, grab release dsmash or throw him off the stage if the regrab is banned
downb - chase him, punish him with grabs and smashes
rest is up to you.
Falco
Falco is a bit of a pain because the downb doesn't really work well due to his sideb, and he doesn't mind being above you as much as other characters. so, you have to zone him from a different location, and punish him differently unless he is on battlefield/lylat where the platforms help you out.
The zone where you want to keep falco is pretty weird, and my term for it wouldn't make sense to you, so I'll borrow hugs's term. you want to keep him just out of range of a dash attack.
also, his reactions will change depending on your %
What he can do
At any %: laser, sideb, nair/dair
At low %: grab
At mid %: running attack into usmash
At high %: Boost usmash
Likely to grab at low %, laser and sideb whenever he feels like it
What you can do: shield grab, upb, dtilt, utilt
At low %: downb
if you shield an up smash: shieldgrab/dsmash
you want to grab, a lot.
Ok, now your in the proper zone, what do you do?
if he lasers (shdl) - Run in as soon as he jumps and shield, when he lands, grab him, you can also upb him at lower% for more damage
if he sidebs - roll backwards to dodge the sideb, grab/upb
if he goes for a grab - downb
if he goes for an aerial - shield grab or utilt
if he runs at you - dtilt, shield/upb if you know it's a dash attack/usmash
ok, now you now what?
if you grab him
At low %: dthrow into upb
Past low %: throw him off stage
If you upb him
pre 60%: read his DI, if he went up shield grab his landing, if he didn't just grab him anyway thanks to his weird falling animation
Past 60%: don't upb him past 60, it just resets the stage and you could have grabbed him instead
if you dtilt (only for grab attempts at low %) link it to a grab or downb
if you downb (olny for grab attempts/rolls/spotdodges): tech chase if he lands on a platform, otherwise try to shield grab the landing
if you utilt either utilt again or pivot grab him.
grabs are important because it gets him off stage, grab a lot.
