Yoshi Matchup(Updated 06/21/09)

gallax · Apr 20, 2009

Yoshi

General Discussion

Yoshi...the little green monster. Bigger than pika and much harder to kill. Although yoshi's best recovery move is his egg toss, his two jumps more than make up for it. With SA frames his jumps can be hard to punish. And being a fairlyheavy character it can be had to kill. But, if you don't know it, yoshi has a blind spot and if get into it you will have gained the adv in the matchup.

Pika's Advantages

1. Small
2. Speedy
3. Has lots of stamina
4. Girls love us more than yoshi
5. Thunder

Pika's Disadvantages

1. Cg'able
2. Easy to kill
3. Egg>tjolt

Strategy for Winning

From the Eyes of Yoshi

The very first thing to do is read the post below this Character Matchup. It is very detailed and informative. From there I would read the rest of the posts in this thread. They are all very informative. What I am going to do in this matchup is point out some of the most important facts that you may not eem to be important and that you need to know.

Yoshi's Blind Spot

The first and very most important thing to remember in this matchup is that yoshi can outcamp us. Do not get into camp wars with yoshi. His jab cancels out our tjolt and the egg comes out faster and can be angled anywhere above yoshi, except for one spot. This one spot is commonly referred to as his blind spot. This is where you need to attack yoshi.

This spot is at a 45 degree angle above yoshi's eyes. Get there and use your tjolt. You are going to need to jup to get into position, but it shouldn't matter. No matter what yoshi you are playing, you should be attacking from this angle. (This isn't to say you can't try other means of approach. What im saying is that if you want to camp yoshi in any way or force an approach from yoshi or just even pressure yoshi this is one of your best options.)

If you want to camp yoshi then this is the spot you need to get in and abuse. If the yoshi gets under you then DI away and/or qac away and start it over again. You want to watch the yoshi carefully since they can surprise you by doing a hitting you with a running usmash or getting a nair off when you are coming down from the tjolt. You want to make sure that by the time you are falling you have ample time to manuever around justin case the tjolt misses.

Anotherwards tjolt+run away, repeat.

Yoshi's Combo Breaker

Yoshi may seem to be a character in which it would be easy to combo but this is not the case. Yoshi's jab and nair comes out faster than anything we have and with more priority so it will win. When you are close to yoshi on the ground and there is a lot of prussure to get the first move off you can expect a jab from yoshi. If you get a ff fair on yoshi a jab can ruin it for you so that you cannot get a grab or dsmash in.

The same applies to yoshi's nair. If we dthrow and try to combo with an uair or nair we will get hit by a nair. Best thing to do is either bait it or, MY FAVORITE wAY, to usmash and then chase yoshi. Always trying to stay under yoshi to punish with a bair or predict where they are going to land to get a grab when they airdodge into the ground.

Yoshi's Killing Potential

Yoshi has 3 main kill moves. You can't really count the fair as a kill move, but it can spike you if you are not careful. These 3 moves are his fsmash/usmash/uair. The one that will probably be used to kill you the most is his uair. most of the time the fsmash is staled and the usmash also. But, sometimes they will be fresh. This happens when you kill the yoshiand they have a new life with fresh attacks. With the usmash i would be wary when when you get around 115%. The fsmash is used often and it's gonna be staled. But, yoshi's will use it when you are near the edge and still try to kill you. Heck, they will use it no matter what. Haha.

The uair is what you need to worry about the most. I would worry about it killing at around 85% just in case you are caught making a button input and it leading to bad DI. Do not let yoshi catch you with an uair at these percents. If hit, uair>ff immediately. There is a setup to cath you though for the uair. If you et eaten and you are in the egg and creak it while in the air, more than likely the yoshi will be right there next to waiting to uair you. My advice, stay in the egg a little longer if yoshi isn't following you. If he is, smash out and then predict what the yoshi is going to do. If the yoshi is using his bair while you are in the egg break out and DI where yoshi ISN'T FACING.

The other kill move that yoshi has that can be surprising at time is his nair. I forgot to mention it earlier, but I feel that it is an important section that needed to be added. This can kill us ~130% if near the edge. If you are at a high percentage, do not get into yoshi's jump>nair range. I recommend using yoshi for a few minutes and practice jump>nair against your opponents to feel his range. (This means do not try and combo yoshi too when at high percentages).

If you are killed at a low percent thatn either you have done something wrong or you have just been mindgamzed. His kill moves are easy to predict and see coming, other than his nair. The uair is coming whenever you are in the air. So keep this in mind and you will make yoshi's life so hard when he is trying to kill you.

Helpful Video's

Currenty Looking for some

Overall Matchup

55:45 in favor of pikachu

[FBC] ESAM · Apr 20, 2009

Yoshi can CG you with has grab release. Most yoshis are predictable in the way they recover, and you can **** it sooo hard once you learn. Yoshis scarcely change up their playstyle, so once you learn their style you realize they can't do much. This match is all about adapting. Sorry, i don't want to go in depth.

Shiri said:
Epic repost from the previous matchup thread.

I know some people disagreed with what I posted, so if they could post their discrepancies here and continue the discussion, that would be awesome.

Therefore, without further ado:

How to Beat Pikachu

This matchup is a pretty gutsy matchup for a game like Brawl; as much of it can be played long-range as can be played just centimeters between the two characters. This is probably going to be one of the toughest matches Yoshi has, but for different reasons than character qualities. This matchup extends beyond the abilities of the characters and reaches into the abilities of the players. This matchup requires persistence, consistency, accuracy, foresight, and plenty of risk assessment. One might say that these qualities are necessary for all matchups, but I find none that reach into the heart of actual combat like Yoshi v. Pikachu.

First things first. Pikachu does not outcamp Yoshi on most horizontal stages. There, I said it. I don't care if you don't believe me. It's the truth. Yoshi can fire off eggs at the same time that Pikachu jolts; even if Pikachu runs, Yoshi can still keep up with the fleeing opponent by using his best weapon against Pikachu's incoming Thunder Jolt; his jab. Yoshi's jab stops most forms of projectile camping cold and not many players realize this. Smaller stages, stages with lots of platforms (or the moving one on Smashville), and vertical stages are where you can find Pikachu beating you out on the projectile part of the game. Pikachu not getting hit is fine, but giving Pikachu more unique angles at which to fire projectiles from makes your job not getting hit extremely hard since, in order to camp Pikachu in return, you must be standing still. Yoshi cannot camp Pikachu while moving; it does not work. Throw eggs and jab incoming jolts--that is the recipe for success long range. The fight won't last that way for long. If you can keep up not getting hit and manage to land an egg, even just occasionally, you will find that the egg's superior damage right off the bat (combined with using jabs on the jolts to keep eggs mostly fresh) will eventually force Pikachu to enter mid-range combat in order to gain some momentum. Even the most patient Pikachu players know when something like jolt camping just isn't working the way it should and they are smart enough to know how to enter mid-range to neutralize the situation and try again.

Once Pikachu moves mid-range, things get difficult. Pikachu's superior priority at mid-range is essential to his battle plan. High pressure aerials and trots can make any player second guess themselves at this range, since one hit usually leads to a few more and although the hits may not do lots of damage, one can certainly feel the momentum of the match change. Spotdodging at mid-range against Pikachu is generally a very bad idea and you can expect them to stay grounded when attempting to bait and punish defensive maneuvers like shielding, rolling, and spotdodging. Trotting upsmashes and dash grabs can be very characteristic of mid-range aggression by Pikachu. Forward aerial also makes an annoying addition to his arsenal, leaving Yoshi locked on many options, both ground and air-based. What makes it even more difficult is that Pikachu can stop almost on a dime and shift to a passive-aggressive mode or go straight into defensive spacing depending on how Yoshi reacts. Passive-aggression usually entails baiting ground approaches into carefully spaced forward smashes and pivot grabs. Defensive spacing options include down tilt (sometimes canceled into a retreating forward smash), neutral or retreating forward aerials, and retreating jumping jolts.

Oh, yeah...I forgot about the Quick Attack Cancel. By the way, this move is your friend. "Now he's off the deep end more than usual," you are probably saying to yourself. Pikachu's dreaded Quick Attack Cancel strikes fear into the hearts of many characters and rightfully so. It's quite potent against a good deal of characters and players. Here's the skinny on this technique, though. There's nothing to be worried about unless you've fallen and missed a tech (which is entirely your fault; don't let anybody tell you otherwise). I'd say out of most of the movement techniques in this game, it is one of the easiest to take advantage of. The weapon of choice for Yoshi here against this technique and against most of Pikachu's mid-range assaults is the ever-reliable pivot grab. Pivot grab stops aggressive Quick Attack Cancels cold and punishes reckless dashes in. In fact, grabbing in general tends to keep Yoshi's viability at mid-range in this matchup somewhat intact. From dash grabbing on passive-aggressive trots, to standing grabs for spotdodges, and pivots for expected aggression, Yoshi can and should rely on intelligent grabbing to keep him safe in this tumultuous area of the battle. This is the area where Pikachu has the easiest time and where he has the highest chance of shifting momentum his way; expect opposing Pikachu players to abuse this range to their utmost ability.

Close range is where Yoshi can really shine. However, this is still no walk in the park. The biggest part about this matchup that may be discouraging for many Yoshi players is that there is no rest for either player if both are playing intelligently and to their characters' strengths. In the Snake matchup, you can go easy when you spot your grab openings. In the Meta Knight matchup, you can go easy when you are waiting for Meta Knight to return to the edge or when you are chaingrabbing. In this matchup, even in your most advantageous area of the matchup, there is no rest. Yoshi is blessed with the ability to create an early momentum lead in the match very easily; keeping that lead as the battle shifts into different phases is key to winning matches and sets. Close range, Pikachu will be working on lots of obvious aggression. The reason it can still be potent is because of Pikachu's good priority, great attack speed, and the ability for his attacks to flow into each other naturally for the most part. One can expect lots of grabs, rapid jabs, forward tilts, dashing neutral airs, and the occasional upsmash. The only defensive maneuvers present are shield and spotdodge. Spotdodges will be followed up most likely by jabs or (more often) by downsmashing (which you should be prepared to DI at any point in time). Shield is followed up mostly back out of shield tactics like up aerial, back aerial (sparingly), and the dangerous neutral air.

Yoshi can lock down the close range fight with some very simple and effective tactics. Yoshi's most reliable and dangerous weapon at this phase in the battle is his jab. Single jabs tap on Pikachu's shield to prevent OoS retaliation on apply almost infuriating levels of pressure. Successful double jabs lead to highly successful dash grabs and dash attacks. Jabbing stops many of Pikachu's close range ground options safely on block and provides ridiculous amounts of disruption to any momentum he may have been trying to muster at this range. Aside from jabs, Yoshi has his entire tilt game at his disposal. While down tilt is probably the least useful because of its excruciating lag time, both forward and up tilt provide protection and offensive support, making Yoshi's job at this range considerably easier. Downsmash also makes a guest appearance here as a reliable tool to take advantage of a situation where you may not have any other options and can use it to force edgeguards or tech rolls. The sparingly used short hop down aerial can do massive shield damage and short hop rising neutral airs can give Yoshi lots of burst momentum and even some surprise KOs near the edge to take advantage of short ranged blunders by Pikachu. As Pikachu learns that close-range is not the best bet for this fight, the player will either lean toward extreme aggression or extreme defense. Pikachu can easily retreat and reset by Quick Attacking up and away to stabilize the momentum and try to spot some openings in your play. On the other hand, Pikachu can try to force his way through your options by abusing super high priority aerials that can take advantage of Yoshi's blind spots, hoping to either knock you into mid-range, off the edge, or into your shield...these are all places where Pikachu can begin to space himself into a comfortable range and attempt to fall into a rhythm. If, for some reason, you are getting forced out of close range, you should just run out and attempt to reset and long range. Rolling and excessive spotdodging or airdodging will get you punished in a match-altering way and you honestly can't afford to make simple mistakes like these; remember, if you have to get out of close range, don't walk (or roll)--run.

Now that I've talked about the three basic horizontal phases (long, mid, and close range), I'll discuss the two vertical phases (ground level and aerial level) and the three "tactical" phases (center stage, the edge, and platforms) of the match.

Yoshi's job in this match is to stay grounded. If you're a fan of Prince of Tennis, you can appreciate the mystifying effectiveness of Tezuka Zone (although I prefer the more comical movie version). The long and short of the technique is that its user stays in one place and is able to force returns of the tennis ball back to itself without using any unnecessary movements to hit the ball back. Similarly, Yoshi wants to stay on the ground and avoid unnecessary dashing, dodging, DRs, trots, or many other tricks. Jumping is also bad for Yoshi in this matchup similarly to how jumping is bad for Snake in his matchup against Yoshi--there are too many ways to take advantage once the character hits the ground to try to make unnecessary jumping a viable tactic or even an option. Movement to different parts of the stage or to different phases of the matchup is certainly necessary, but I'm talking about using movements that don't have a direct and significant purpose; those kids of movements have no place in this matchup. For instance, the Egg Toss Slide is a very fun and somewhat effective technique for Yoshi users who can see the value in retreating while applying some form of pressure. Should this technique be used when you suspect Pikachu will stay at mid-range or retreat to long range? No. You should use this technique when you KNOW Pikachu will either stay where he is or retreat. The onus is on Yoshi to keep himself as invulnerable as possible; Pikachu can quite literally camp out your movements and take advantage of them from a safe distance with his good speed and quick-starting moves. Likewise, Yoshi can wait out Pikachu's response to feints or movement by observing without leaving himself open while performing techniques that may or may not work and have a high chance of crippling his chances at keeping stock.

Aerial combat in this matchup is no joke. Know what you're getting into. This part of the match is tough. Similar to the matchup with Mr. Game and Watch, Yoshi really has no business being in the air with Pikachu at the same time. I don't care who you are or who you play, there is no real reason to justify Yoshi and Pikachu both jumping at each other at the same time. Pikachu will win most times hands down, not only because of his priority, but because of the flexibility of his aerials. He is well suited with many of his aerials to tackle more than one area surrounding his character with a single aerial. Yoshi does not have this luxury and is very restricted in which aerials he can use and when. He is further restricted by his environment and Pikachu's medium weight (which alters how Yoshi will have to use aerials as Pikachu's damage increases; lighter weight means more adjustments with fewer percent increments as the stock goes on). When Pikachu is in the air, you need to assess what the player is trying to accomplish. It's more than a simple, "Hey, he's using a back aerial." The depth of your thinking needs to see the purpose behind the moves. Is the back aerial forcing a particular type of DI? Maybe the Pikachu player knows you are unaware of how to DI the back aerial and is using that to rack up damage and chip away at your patience or confidence? Since this match is decided more by the players than the characters, you need to be able to see past the simplicity of the moves just being performed. There are lots of ulterior motives on both sides to using moves and forcing moves...Pikachu can use his aerials to great effect in this particular part of the battle and you can expect the best Pikachu players to abuse this relentlessly. Once you have ascertained the intent behind their aerials (other than to "do damage"), you can begin to examine your options. For example, if a dashing neutral air is meant to knock you into mid-range or into your shield, you can pre-empt this by meeting the Pikachu with a dashing upsmash of your own instead of getting pushed into a situation where you're not in control. You might trade hits, but Pikachu will learn sooner or later that you can, indeed, read into his strategies and that future attempts at anything will have to be accompanied by a Plan B or by failure.

Now hopefully we can build off of ^^^ and make the same kind of thing from pikachu's perspective.

KayLo! · Apr 21, 2009

Hmm. That summary of the matchup was interesting, but I think Pika's game has changed slightly since it was written (at least, it sounds like it wasn't written very recently).

Like the Luigi matchup, I'll tackle this later. For the most part, it seemed pretty accurate. I'm not an expert on the Yoshi matchup, though.

Poltergust · Apr 21, 2009

The thing is, ESAM, that Yoshi can adapt to Pikachu just as well as Pikachu can adapt to Yoshi.

...Eh, I feel lazy today. I'll just let the discussion flow for a little while before I get into it. I'll just say that Pikachu doesn't have a chain-grab on Yoshi and leave it at that for now. @_@

Shiri · Apr 21, 2009

While I wouldn't say that Yoshi can adjust just as well (I think adapt might be the wrong word)...

...I will say that Yoshi can meet Pikachu halfway on changing playstyles.

Yoshi is a character that has a multitude of different playstyles, but we all know he's a habit-forming character, despite his multiple dimensions. One of the things we stress on the Yoshi boards is always playing with a change of pace, a lack of predictability, and (as Furbz has recently brought up) riding yourself of habits.

With that being said, considering matchup discussions are held by the community in general to be "matches played at the highest level," I would hope that this discussion doesn't devolve into "Well, Pikachu will always do x at y," or "Yoshi will always recover z way," since they don't do justice to either character--especially on the subject of Yoshi's recovery, since any actual Yoshi player will express the multiple dimensions Yoshi has with recovery.

But yeah, I would like to hear what Pikachu players have to say (LOL Poltergust @ obligatory "don't CG us" comment), because I think this matchup is super fun despite whichever character is supposed to have some arbitrarily numbered advantage.

[FBC] ESAM · Apr 21, 2009

I played poltergust in tournament (losers finals, i won 3-0) and i know he isn't all yoshi players, but it just seemed that yoshi's go for very straight-forward and deliberate things (watched furbs and bwett on WHOBO livestream). They are sometimes unpredictable, but they do the same unpredictable things. Pikachu, on the other hand, can be straightforward, and we can mix-up our strings and make it very aggrevating to get in and land a hit...It's weird for me to analyze this one MU, since yoshi is such a funky character. It definitely rides on exp and knowing both characters.

gallax · Apr 21, 2009

i play gindler all the time with his yoshi and it can be very frustrating, especially if the yoshi is great at pivot grabs and egg spamming. also, trying to combo against yoshi is hard if they know that yoshi's nair come out extremely fast and breaks comboes.

Juanyboy3 · Apr 21, 2009

yoshi v pika...wow this brings back memories :]

bigman40 · Apr 21, 2009

I think it's an even matchup. Being a Pika player and a Yoshi player, (to me) both characters can go toe to toe with each other, however if one side knows more than the other, then it'll get shaky for the other player. I guess I'll comment on this later when I can.

Furbs · Apr 21, 2009

Shiri said:
(as Furbz has recently brought up) riding yourself of habits.
.

am I missing something here!?

what's going on!???

Poltergust · Apr 21, 2009

ESAM said:
I played poltergust in tournament (losers finals, i won 3-0) and i know he isn't all yoshi players, but it just seemed that yoshi's go for very straight-forward and deliberate things (watched furbs and bwett on WHOBO livestream). They are sometimes unpredictable, but they do the same unpredictable things. Pikachu, on the other hand, can be straightforward, and we can mix-up our strings and make it very aggrevating to get in and land a hit...It's weird for me to analyze this one MU, since yoshi is such a funky character. It definitely rides on exp and knowing both characters.

It was my first time playing Pikachu offline. </john>

Van Jones · Apr 22, 2009

Oh shi........

Dang. If I would have know that we were gonna do this match up, I have recorded some more current videos with Bwett. I'll record some with him next week.

[FBC] ESAM · Apr 22, 2009

Poltergust said:
It was my first time playing Pikachu offline. </john>

It was my first time playing yoshi offline. No johns

KayLo! · Apr 22, 2009

thebadnewsbear06 said:
Oh shi........

Dang. If I would have know that we were gonna do this match up, I have recorded some more current videos with Bwett. I'll record some with him next week.

Ooo, Bear, if they're really good, I can replace the funky old ones of you I put in the guide.

supermario27mx · Apr 28, 2009

Yoshi's Nair is fast enough to stop or the Dthrow->Utilt combo, sometimes both chars get hit. It also stops you from dash attacking after a Fthrow, not that you would do that regularly in any match (spams Tjolts.)

Legendary Pikachu · Apr 29, 2009

From my experience, a good spacing yoshi that uses a lot of eggs and grabs will tilt the game over to yoshi. The DJC'ed egg lay has some SA grab frames and allows yoshi to grab pika while in air and that alone sets up for potential 18 more damage or kill if the pika DI's wrong or the Yoshi techchases right. With the eggs having more than one hitbox, anything besides powershielding will result in pika being thrown into pressure or into bad spacing most of the time. Eggs > f-air>t-jolts. That pretty much takes care of the pika spammers and one of pika's prominant set ups. As for shield-grab approaches, Yoshi has pivot grab, jump canceled eggs (sliding backwards), rar sh b-air, and DJC'ed egg lay. One yoshi that i have known is comfortable with using eggs at point-blank (egg fall right on yoshi or right in front). Combine that with the slides, anything let alone good spaced dashing shield-grab, will not hit yoshi or be punishable.

When I face yoshi's, I tend to walk a lot more than i do against other characters. It helps meet to react against b-airs, grabs, pivot grabs and eggs. I try to bait a dash-grab or normal grab cuz those lag a ton more than the pivot (or at least put yoshi in a vulnerable spot) and punish accordingly. Remember, although yoshi can't be shield-stabbed/poked, his shield is very pressurable to multi-hit moves and will force a roll about 80% of the time (80% of the yoshi's i faced at least). If i get my read right, its a free grab or smash with the techchase. My personal opinion is that yoshi is most vulnerable in the air/recovery (not really vulnerable but the closest it gets compared to other yoshi predicaments). Right below them, u-airs will juggle so long as yoshi doesn't DJ, but after that yoshi is very vulnerable when returning to his landing spot. Thunders, QaC to thunders, QaC to anything, more u-airs will make due in most situations because most yoshi's never think of doing d-air for some reason. Yoshi's may then down-b to edge, and this is where reading plays the most important role. Thunder.... or mindgamed anything else, but i'll just bet with thunder. Ask stealth about his success stories against yoshi (and i bet he has some), but i personally rely on this move to get me the game against yoshi on the ledge. Thunder has that invicibility part for like 2 frames so even a grabbing yoshi is not entirely safe, if yoshi does an attack after DJ, his pseudo SA will fade so that'll make yoshi's think more in recovering from ledge with an aerial attack. If thunair is properly placed, I think the yoshi has only 1 option to escape unscathed (jump down and DJ to airdodge back to ledge). Oh, and if i remember right, yoshi's eggs can matrix/lag the more powerful part of thunder--its nice to remember when yoshi's last effort recovery will result in yoshi throwing an egg and coming closer at the same time (what I want... hehe).

Although thunder rocks, i think yoshi can just DJ through the rod part of it at low enough damages or something @_@. DJ airdodge is a fairly non-threatening move but yoshi's near untouchable also. B-air will eat t-jolts if spaced correctly, and u-air will KILL after only a dozen eggs (dunno about others but i just think this fact is stupidly-good about yoshi

).

Summary:
-why ask me if the matchup is somewhat even?
-I'd say that yoshi's recovery is more predictable (not realliy predictable but relatively) than pika's; if no-one agrees then forget what i say cuz i won't doubt some yoshi's can so some serious aerial ****... lol.
-walk when on ground (conservative perspective)
-pounce when yoshi is above you or on ledge

Matchup:
experience in winning against yoshi's: 60:40 in pika's favor
After really think about yoshi: 50:50 or 55:45 in pika's favor (may reverse the numbers if the yoshi is amazin')

Twin_Scimitar · Apr 30, 2009

Legendary Pikachu said:
When I face yoshi's, I tend to walk a lot more than i do against other characters. It helps meet to react against b-airs, grabs, pivot grabs and eggs. I try to bait a dash-grab or normal grab cuz those lag a ton more than the pivot (or at least put yoshi in a vulnerable spot) and punish accordingly. Remember, although yoshi can't be shield-stabbed/poked, his shield is very pressurable to multi-hit moves and will force a roll about 80% of the time (80% of the yoshi's i faced at least).

You start off with very relevant information on the matchup. I second both Pika and Yoshi, so I have a pretty good idea where both characters are weak or strong. I was impressed.

Quick Side Note:
Also Yoshi's roll is so bad I just wait for a non multihit move/a move I can use a Side step for, since Yoshi's side step is actually good. Tbh if I don't feel comfortable side stepping I find myself just letting go of the shield button and letting myself get hit with the end of a multi hit move then jumping or running to pivot grab or egg throw. Jab or sidestep works too I suppose, I should work those in more often. It is sooo much better than getting punished for a roll. Not positive this is pertinent to the match up, just commenting on how I deal with multi-hit moves as Yoshi since Pika has a lot of good ones.

Then you completely ruined the analysis for me.

Legendary Pikachu said:
Matchup:
experience in winning against yoshi's: 60:40 in pika's favor
After really think about yoshi: 50:50 or 55:45 in pika's favor (may reverse the numbers if the yoshi is amazin')

<_< >_>

-_-

Legendary Pikachu · Apr 30, 2009

Twin_Scimitar said:
You start off with very relevant information on the matchup. I second both Pika and Yoshi, so I have a pretty good idea where both characters are weak or strong. I was impressed.

Then you completely ruined the analysis for me.

<_< >_>

-_-

Thank you... I'll take that as a compliment... :D.

I also second yoshi so... i do give the dino props where its due.

[FBC] ESAM · Apr 30, 2009

The matchup doesn't change now matter how skilled the yoshi is...its the same matchup, just who can execute it better.

PikaPika! · Apr 30, 2009

Watch out for eggs and retreating pivot grabs be careful of yoshi's fsmash since it moves his hitbox and his upsmash can stop any of our aerial approaches. His kill moves will revolve around fsmash and upsmash and the biggest threat I've seen is his upair his nair can also kill. Jolts are ok but can be stopped by any attack yoshi throws out. The main way yoshi builds damage on pika for me at least is hit jabs into a grab and bair can be annoying as well.

Against him you cant do much outa grabs without getting hit yourself, i cant think of much yoshi can do against fair if you land behind his shield since he still cant jump out of it.

This post has probally been farily useless but i was bored.

Twin_Scimitar · May 2, 2009

ESAM said:
The matchup doesn't change now matter how skilled the yoshi is...its the same matchup, just who can execute it better.

Yep this was the point of the <_< >_> -_-.

Legendary, you shouldn't have taken it as a compliment. =)

After playing my friends Pikachu with my Yoshi in a set, and looking at the dismal options I had to choose from, I am further convinced it's bad for Yoshi. Especially when you consider that Pikachu can just be patient; pivot grab isn't very good if the Pikachu rarely approaches. He agreed with me on this. We certainly don't represent the potential of the characters since we are not pro, plus we only second the characters, so take what I've said with a bit o' salt.

gallax · May 2, 2009

taken witha bit of salt and going to write a full matchup here as soon as i get the chance to sit down for a t least two hours and write it out. plus im going to play my friend ginlers yoshi again and take note of everything that pika can and cannot do.

bigman40 · Jun 7, 2009

Looks like I got some stuff to cover, "cracks fingers"

ESAM said:
I played poltergust in tournament (losers finals, i won 3-0) and i know he isn't all yoshi players, but it just seemed that yoshi's go for very straight-forward and deliberate things (watched furbs and bwett on WHOBO livestream). They are sometimes unpredictable, but they do the same unpredictable things. Pikachu, on the other hand, can be straightforward, and we can mix-up our strings and make it very aggrevating to get in and land a hit...It's weird for me to analyze this one MU, since yoshi is such a funky character. It definitely rides on exp and knowing both characters.

Most Yoshi's are straight forward cause they don't cover their weaknesses good enough. While you have tools to mix things up, we do too. We can trade hits all day if you're not careful. And every MU is depending on how much you know about it and the EXP you've had. It determines the wins and losses.

Legendary Pikachu said:
From my experience, a good spacing yoshi that uses a lot of eggs and grabs will tilt the game over to yoshi.

This highly depends on the style you're playing. you can get around eggs, but then you have pivot grabs to deal with. They're annoying, but you can get around it.

The DJC'ed egg lay has some SA grab frames and allows yoshi to grab pika while in air and that alone sets up for potential 18 more damage or kill if the pika DI's wrong or the Yoshi techchases right. With the eggs having more than one hitbox, anything besides powershielding will result in pika being thrown into pressure or into bad spacing most of the time.

Egg lay doesn't have any SA frames. it's just Heavy frames where Yoshi is changing his weight on his DJ, and even then, it doesn't transfer into his Egg Lay. We time it to where you hit the DJ frames and we counter. Most of the itme for eggs, w/o some delicate setting up, we won't be comboing with it. It works well for forcing players to go where we want them to go.

Eggs > f-air>t-jolts. That pretty much takes care of the pika spammers and one of pika's prominant set ups.

It's not sound for us to just straight up egg you guys. You Tjolt from the air, and then it makes things harder for us cause we would then have to aim for the tjolt if we're just spamming eggs. You should be trying to hit in the mid area so that if we try to egg you while you tjolt, we will most likely get hit by the tjolt. If you keep attacking a Yoshi's blindspot, then you'll get the ones that can't manage it well.

As for shield-grab approaches, Yoshi has pivot grab, jump canceled eggs (sliding backwards), rar sh b-air, and DJC'ed egg lay. One yoshi that i have known is comfortable with using eggs at point-blank (egg fall right on yoshi or right in front). Combine that with the slides, anything let alone good spaced dashing shield-grab, will not hit yoshi or be punishable.

You should be punishing that if he's using it at point blank. Eggs are best for aerial opponents and at about mid-far range when they're grounded.

Remember, although yoshi can't be shield-stabbed/poked, his shield is very pressurable to multi-hit moves and will force a roll about 80% of the time (80% of the yoshi's i faced at least).

The bolded part just told you what you're doing against the not so good Yoshis. Also, don't underestimate Yoshi's shield tht much. If we notice you're going to use a multi-hit move, we can spotdodge the latter half of it, and then punish you normally. (I've done this on Lucario's multihit moves). His shield isn't as pressureable unless you can make him shield on a platform and you're just wailing on his shield.

Twin_Scimitar said:
Quick Side Note:
Also Yoshi's roll is so bad I just wait for a non multihit move/a move I can use a Side step for, since Yoshi's side step is actually good. Tbh if I don't feel comfortable side stepping I find myself just letting go of the shield button and letting myself get hit with the end of a multi hit move then jumping or running to pivot grab or egg throw. Jab or sidestep works too I suppose, I should work those in more often. It is sooo much better than getting punished for a roll. Not positive this is pertinent to the match up, just commenting on how I deal with multi-hit moves as Yoshi since Pika has a lot of good ones.

Yoshi's spotdodge = Pika's spotdodge. If you're not careful about being in our face, we're gonna jab the **** out of you guys, and Yoshi's jab is reallt good for annoyance lol. As Yoshi, we just need to spotdodge the rest of the multihit moves other tan letting them hit us. If it does hit us, then we should be trying to DI out of them.

PikaPika! said:
Watch out for eggs and retreating pivot grabs be careful of yoshi's fsmash since it moves his hitbox and his upsmash can stop any of our aerial approaches. His kill moves will revolve around fsmash and upsmash and the biggest threat I've seen is his upair his nair can also kill. Jolts are ok but can be stopped by any attack yoshi throws out. The main way yoshi builds damage on pika for me at least is hit jabs into a grab and bair can be annoying as well.

Against him you cant do much outa grabs without getting hit yourself, i cant think of much yoshi can do against fair if you land behind his shield since he still cant jump out of it.

This post has probally been farily useless but i was bored.

You forgot DownB. If you're trying to be upclose to us, and we get an opening, we can use downB (which is like Bowser's but better in ranger), and kill you. You got most of the stuff right though

Twin_Scimitar said:
After playing my friends Pikachu with my Yoshi in a set, and looking at the dismal options I had to choose from, I am further convinced it's bad for Yoshi. Especially when you consider that Pikachu can just be patient; pivot grab isn't very good if the Pikachu rarely approaches. He agreed with me on this. We certainly don't represent the potential of the characters since we are not pro, plus we only second the characters, so take what I've said with a bit o' salt.

If Pika goes patient, we can too. Even though I don't really prefer going defensive, we really would be at a stalemate from camping all day IMO lol.

Now then, to give some info on this. This Matchup is gonna depend on who gets the momentum the most. both characters can certainly do some damage when momentum is going for them, and Pika can at least get away just barely easier than Yoshi. You guys have QACing to reset positions, and we have our DJ to help us get away. Also, both characters have good edgegauarding and recovering. Although, Thunders will make us either airdodge through it (which you can bair the airdodge if we're not careful enough), or force us to sweetspot the ledge. So try to abuse that some if we're ever planning to go high. At the same time, if you're recovering, try to make SkullBash either sweetspot the ledge, or make it short so that you aren't susceptible to a Uair.

On the stage, we're more prone to try and stay grounded than you guys simply of the fact at how our projectiles work. If you're gonna get in our face, you know that jabs will be coming. So if you can get close enough, you can just do a Nair OoS. If you can't get that close, then a OoS Dair works fairly good too. You go too slow at punishing, and you're getting Jabs, angled Ftilts, or a pivotgrab. At about mid range, Tjolting needs o be carefully used here. If we're expecting you to use it relatively close to us, we will jump over it and Bair you.

To comment really quick about Usmash, it's not a complete Anti-Air move. If we're spacing it well enough, then you'll have a hard time beating it at all (but at the same time, this'll take out one of our killing moves). A Yoshi poorly using it can get punished if you're on the ground, or if you hit their body first.

Our CG isn't meant for dmg (trust me, ALOT of Yoshi's say it's **** cause it does no dmg). It's really meant to keep stage control, and maybe get you guys a little pissed off (which is what we like lol). If you can stay calm even if we get the CG off, then you'll be fine. We have no options that you can't escape from our CG release, so it's no true threat to you other than frustration.

If I need to list more, I'll do so, but this is what I got for you guys right now.

Gindler · Jun 21, 2009

gallax said:
taken witha bit of salt and going to write a full matchup here as soon as i get the chance to sit down for a t least two hours and write it out. plus im going to play my friend ginlers yoshi again and take note of everything that pika can and cannot do.

Ha, I was hoping you'd have a write up so I'd know how to beat your pika now. Before you abused yoshi's blind spot it wasn't very difficult of a fight, now I hate it with a passion :laugh:

(thunder jolt + run away is too good)

gallax · Jun 21, 2009

hey guys i updated this with a matchup summary, but its not done. i would like your input on what else you would like to see me write about in this one. ya'll covered most of it and if people are having problems with it they should read the reast of what everyone has written since there is too much good information in this.

bigman40 · Jun 28, 2009

Needs moar details. In my opinion, this looked like you were making it for the Pikas that would be fighting the average Yoshis lol.

KayLo! · Jun 28, 2009

bigman40 said:
Needs moar details. In my opinion, this looked like you were making it for the Pikas that would be fighting the average Yoshis lol.

UT OH, you offended the Yoshi main!

bigman40 · Jun 28, 2009

KayLo! said:
UT OH, you offended the Yoshi main!

Naw, he didn't offend me at all, but the problem that lies in it is whether his summary is supposed to apply to the general skill level of Yoshis or the highest level of Yoshis. If he's talking about the medicore ones, then he's fairly solid except for a few incorrect parts. However, if it's about the top players, then it's really far off lol.

King~ · Jun 28, 2009

bigman40 said:
Naw, he didn't offend me at all, but the problem that lies in it is whether his summary is supposed to apply to the general skill level of Yoshis or the highest level of Yoshis. If he's talking about the medicore ones, then he's fairly solid except for a few incorrect parts. However, if it's about the top players, then it's really far off lol.

***** you salty

(yea im usin on you, WHAT YOU GOIN DO ABOUT IT *****)

KayLo! · Jun 28, 2009

King Yoshi said:
***** you salty

(yea im usin on you, WHAT YOU GOIN DO ABOUT IT *****)

Spam is bad for you. And your infraction record.

Bigman, if you see errors in Gallax's write-up, either point them out here (which is preferred, so other people can learn from your contribution) or PM him so he can fix any mistakes. I'm sure he'll be open to your suggestions.

Also, you both use "salty" wrong.... not to mention it's madd outdated. (I still use it sometimes, though..... x.o And get made fun of by my friends for doing it every time, lolol.)

gallax · Jun 29, 2009

yeah bigman please feel free to critique it and send it back to me. also if you would like some parts to be elaborated on then just tell me and it will be done.

Yoshi Matchup(Updated 06/21/09)

Smash Hero

Smash Legend

Smarter than your average wabbit.

Smash Master

Smash Chump

Smash Legend

Smash Hero

Smash Apprentice

Smash Master

Smash Journeyman

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Smash Legend

Smarter than your average wabbit.

Smash Ace

Smash Ace

Smash Cadet

Smash Ace

Smash Legend

Smash Ace

Smash Cadet

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smash Champion

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smarter than your average wabbit.

Smash Master

Smash Champion

Smarter than your average wabbit.

Smash Hero

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