ROB OFFICIAL MATCHUP DISCUSSION: Zero Suit Samus

I know a lot of people probably would prefer to see Snake, but he has been discussed in the past (I just can't find the thread at the moment) and nothing "GAMEBREAKING" in the matchup has occurred since then. ZSS however, has had almost NO discusssion, and what with the advent of the infinite... I think it bears discussing.



GO GO GO!

ZSS isn't really that great of a char with the exception of her infinite. Spam projectiles to get here damage up and when you see an opening try to take advantage and gimp her. Do this and avoid her infinite and you should win the matchup. A good ROB can beat a good ZSS if played right. Keep space and rack up damage and it should put you in solid position to move in for the gimp.

lol we infinite you, gg, 100-0.


just kidding...


So here's the quick rundown:

in the air ZSS can **** ROB as long as she's under or behind him. When she's above she loses, when they're facing each other it's about equal, and when ROB is behind ZSS it's about equal too (but be careful because if we trade hits you'll die from b-air, assuming KO %).

on the ground ROB has a much better shield pressure game, and that's probably what you are going to want to focus on. D-tilts, F-tilts, and jabs will **** ZSS, especially when you mix in grabs. Make sure not to chase ZSS too far, she'll usually connect with a side-b that way.

now let's talk dirty: the infinite.

in order to start the infinite we have to connect with a d-smash. in order to continue the infinite we have to cancel a footstool with a d-air/down-b and d-smash again, with a forgiveness of 4-5 frames. In general it's pretty difficult, especially when you don't practice it that much.

when talking match-up numbers, you're supposed to assume that both players are significantly experienced in it. As such, the ZSS would be able to aptly perform it, meaning one d-smash means one stock, every time. However, in reality you can expect to not be infinite'd all that often, and most likely the ZSS will screw up at some point (and the hardest part is getting it started).


overall advice:
stick to the ground and projectiles, if ZSS gets close, d-tilt/jab/f-tilt pressure her away, and continue the projectile game. Watch out for side-bs and don't get caught in a d-smash.

probably looking at 60-40 or 70-30

Is there any way to SDI out of her D-smash?

nope, it's not multihit and you're not in hitlag.

you can DI it normal as you're leaving the "stun", but that's irrelevant with regards to the infinite

Landry said:

ZSS isn't really that great of a char with the exception of her infinite. Spam projectiles to get here damage up and when you see an opening try to take advantage and gimp her. Do this and avoid her infinite and you should win the matchup. A good ROB can beat a good ZSS if played right. Keep space and rack up damage and it should put you in solid position to move in for the gimp.

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GAWD! Why does everyone think ZSS is so easily gimped as if she was olimar or ivysaur or something? One thing you learn very fast playing a good Zero Suit. Gimping her is NOT easy. In fact, she "is one of the best survivalists in the game and doesn't get gimped" -quoted by Snakeee. We have lots and lots of options.
Our up-b gives us a boost on our second jump to help us recover higher.
We can tether from the side with a side-b, not just from below.
Down-b gives us an extra jump, and a little thing called the flipstool lets us jump on your edge-hogging head from a pretty far distance. We can also use it to jump on actual objects, like you're gyro.

kuenzel said:

...and a little thing called the flipstool lets us jump on your edge-hogging head from a pretty far distance. We can also use it to jump on actual objects, like you're gyro.

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very interested in hearing about this/mechanics behind it.

DuLL_RaZer said:

very interested in hearing about this/mechanics behind it.

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Hmmm... can't find a vid of it being explained, but at 8:25 in this vid ZSS does a flipstool off a grenade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBV4_pgUrOw

if someone hogs the ledge, hitting jump during the down-b flip if there is something to flip allows a third jump that goes quite a distance.

Its pretty generous on the position you have to be to flipstool something. sometimes I've done it when I've been only kinda close, but not really... Its hard to explain

lol you didnt know ZSS could flip jump footstool?

I pretty much agree and support everything faded said (and what Kuenzel said about ZSS' survivablity). All we have to do is get rob in the air and he cant do anything except airdodge and nair, both of which we can punish hard. Rob is a sitting duck when we are juggling him. We can zone him easily, punish his dsmash, and edgeguard him easier (not saying we always will) that other characters since he moves pretty predictably in the air. Rob is probably like the easiest character for us to juggle since he's so defenseless up there.

But rob's tilts HURT, Ill give yall that.

I say 65/45 ZSS.

canthandletheSpeculosity said:

I say 65/45 ZSS.

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Hmm, it may be because I main a robot but those numbers don't look right to me from some reason... Even if they didn't add up to 110% to say the matchup is in ZSS's favor seems just wrong to me. Sure, the infinite works if you're playing a ROB who doesn't know about it, but it's really not that hard to avoid. Besides, as a character ZSS has seen a decline in recent months since people began to figure her out. This is evident in Ankoku's ranking list which shows ZSS has fared worse at tournaments since earlier in Brawl. ROB, on the other hand, is sort of paradoxical in that almost everyone knows how ROB is going to play, and yet a good ROB main still has success his old techniques. I don't know, I'm not trying to be bias here but it seems to me that statistics have proven that a good ROB could beat a good ZSS. Back when OS mained ROB (and back when ZSS's metagame was more effective than it is now) he beat plenty of good ZSS in tournament play (vs. Taso & vs. Zjinn) This seems to pretty convincingly demonstrate that if not heavily the ROB/ZSS matchup is at least slightly in ROB's favor.

ZSS thrives where ROB is least comfortable, just outside of ftilt range, too close to use his laggy projectiles.

Definitely in ZSS's favor, even without the infinite.

What JCaesar said. If they space f.B's ROB is in trouble. That spacing is exactly where ROB doesn't want to be.

HOWEVER the juggle game is not as bad as it seems. If you can't (L)edgeguard ROB, you can't juggle ROB. A smart ROB is not that easy to juggle, he'll just go off stage.

So IMO 60:40 ZSS.

I don't mean to be rude, but how exactly is ZSS's metagame declining?

Just because Ankoku's thread shows a decrease in ZSS's wins doesn't mean she's not a good character anymore. The reason she was so high was mainly because of Snakeee, and it's probably faltering because he uses multiple characters in tournament now.

and obviously, not a lot of people are figuring out ZSS, you didn't even know that ZSS has an extremely solid recovery. And if you think she's not a great character apart from the infinite, mm me next time your on WC. d:

Also, not to be a **** to those two ZSS's you posted, but they were not very good at all. I turned off Taso's match after the second f-smash in 15 seconds. And Nyjin was not playing very well at all.


Anyways, it really is easy as hell to juggle a ROB. Just as long as you don't run in front of him he can't do anything. You can't ledgehog a ROB, but you can definitely put on the pressure with edgeguarding. Since you can't airdodge during your up-b, you're very vulnerable to getting hit with side-b, which is very dangerous.

I'm tending to agree with the more 65-35 or 65-40 in ZSS favor, for reasons JCZ and the ZSS contributors have mentioned.

canthandletheSpeculosity said:

lol you didnt know ZSS could flip jump footstool?

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I knew about it, I just didn't know the mechanics behind, and haven't had it used on me/seen it. Its one of those things that I knew the char could do, just didn't know how/had any experience. hence, why i said it interested me. I will admit, that I didn't you you could do it off of objects like the grenade/gyro/etc.

6/4 without the infinite, IMO. ZSS is really good at pressuring ROB in general from outside of his range. ZSS also has every tool she needs to put her opponent above her, and to keep them there, and that's not what ROB wants. He can go off the stage, but ZSS has one of the best ledge pressure games out there, with spaced dsmashes, Paralyzer, Plasma Whip, and usmash if they try to come in from above. ROB also has one of the least reliable ledge recovery games out there, unless his opponent can't outrage fair and nair, but ZSS can do without much difficulty.

With the infinite, I'd say it's 8/2 ZSS. This isn't just about a dsmash onstage meaning the stock is over for ROB, it's also about stage control. Unless ZSS is on the other side of the stage from ROB, ROB doesn't want to be on the ground, and if he's on the ground near her, he doesn't want to roll or do anything laggy. Remember that even dsmash outranges ftilt (at least according to Snakeee). ROB's only recourse in this match is to run away, but ZSS's speed and aerial mobility make this tremendously difficult for ROB to do for long, and ROB's zoning options range from neutral to terrible, with really no advantageous spots.

ZSS also possesses two stellar CPs against ROB in Norfair and Brinstar, so if you ban one, she'll just take you to the other.

Perhaps I phrased that wrong. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that ZSS had some very good strategies that were effective early on in Brawl but have since become less effective, not that the metagame was declining. It's sort of like Sheik was in Melee, very successful early on but was figured out as the game progressed (not to say she's a bad character). It seems to me that a campy, spammy ROB can win this matchup. ZSS may have the advantage in close but ROBs projectiles allow him to step back and create openings with the glide toss. It's also not easy to ledgeguard ROB because he can back away from the stage and gyro/laser ZSS edgegrab, then come up for a nair.

I thought it was easy to ledgeguard ROB. back in the day in like october I remember playing NL's Rob in a tourney, when he was on the ledge he couldnt do ANYTHING. I was basically spamming side b and lasers while he tried to get up and I was able to pressure him enough to plank. countless times during those situations if he tried to ledgehop to do lasers or gyro he would always get a side b and laser in his face then I continure from tere. Even after the match NL said that ROB has little options to get up from the ledge.

If the ZSS spaces her side b so that the tip always goes a little over the ledge and uses lasers, all rob can do is plank. If rob tries to jump from the ledge he gets uaired then now he's in an even worse position trying to get to the ground. he cant do a ledge attack because we will outspace and out prio that. I dont recommend dsmash to ledgeguard him though since his fair has more priority than it to ledgehop with.

And I actually think ZSS' metagame is changing for the better. before it was only about spamming side b. Now that people know how to get pass that it allowed us to explore her more and now she has like so many different ways to play and is very versitile.

Ledgeguarding stupid ROBs consists of spamming Side b and paralyzer shots
Ledgeguarding smart ROBs takes a bit more effort.

If you're playing a ROB who is on the ledge and you use Side B over and over and they don't get up, you deserve to 3 stock them. I think maybe the

I don't feel like typing that guys name said:

back in the day in like october

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might have something to do with it.

Anyway

75:25 ZSS. ROBs 2nd worst matchup since the advent of the infinite. Once it's mastered, this matchup will be impossible. Pick a secondary, guys.

I Thought it was 65/35 without the infinite. I didnt even really bother learning it, dont feel it's necessary. besides, I thought the infinite only worked if we stun them from 0-10%

It's like 60/40 without the infinite IMO.

With the infinite it's 75/25, but only because people still suck at it.

If people master it it will seriously be...99:1. This isn't like ICs grabs, ZSS is a very flexible character and her DSmash has deceptive range. ZSS is **** hard to camp (a good one anyway), so seriously start practicing a ZSS counter in case you encounter one because soon you just won't be able to win.

canthandletheSpeculosity said:

I Thought it was 65/35 without the infinite. I didnt even really bother learning it, dont feel it's necessary. besides, I thought the infinite only worked if we stun them from 0-10%

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Pretty sure the infinite works at any %. So instead of the usual Dsmash->Dsmash->Something, for ROB it's Dsmash->REDACTEDFORSUPARSECRECY->Dead

And I will admit to it being a pain to do, but for he ****ty level of player I am I can do 8 or so consecutively without error. It won't be long until it's a standard tool of ZSS mains used reliably in tournaments.

Quick poll how many of you are actually going to learn the infinite on someone we had a close match with, before, so that you can do it in tourney. I might learn it but its a pretty **** move, PS I hate IC.

ZSS already beats rob slightly maybe 55:45 or 60:40, it can still be pretty close, but I just kinda hate being a douche and making a good matchup great, I have less qualms about doing the dsmash combo on falco though.

The infinite is pretty tough to pull off in a match at least the first rep once you get it, you pretty much got it.

With a perfectly mastered d-smash infinite I would say around 75-25, because their are lots of ways to get around the infinite still but since damage doesn't matter its still pretty homo. Sorry Rob players

*Also secret pro tip we have to connect the d-smash while you are standing/crouching on the ground otherwise it will not work. It abuses a property of our down air which makes it auto cancel if your center of body is just above or at a platform, because the head bounce knocks us downwards, odd sare other characters can do this too off of stunned characters it just doesn't really matter to much or really at all.

But who cares about the infinite pretty much the rule is if we are in the air and so are you we win, there are some exceptions but not many, your big hit box allows us to do alot more over B gimmicks than usual, and also makes a few more approaches/pressure strings more viable, your biggest asset is your tilts, grab and d-smash.

Also we are about just as likely to edge gimp you are you are us, but Rob is pretty good at edge hogging ZSS despite her great recovery, f-air is a bit of a pain.

Also robs use your full power beam the low power one really doesn't effect me at least at all, and the full power one has really gotten me in a tight spot a few times.

I've learned the infinite pretty well now (spent a lot of time practicing it) and I'm not sure it's even possible for me to lose to a ROB player unless I suicide 3 times.

It isn't difficult to hit with the dsmash, even if ROB is being campy. The matchup wasn't even really good for ROB before the infinite was discovered. We were talking 60:40 or 65:35 even then.

To beat ZSS, you need to either never get hit with dsmash (and you guys aren't Fox) meaning you're a much better player anyway, or gimp once or twice meaning ZSS wasn't paying attention.

Sorry guys.

Landry said:

Perhaps I phrased that wrong. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that ZSS had some very good strategies that were effective early on in Brawl but have since become less effective, not that the metagame was declining. It's sort of like Sheik was in Melee, very successful early on but was figured out as the game progressed (not to say she's a bad character). It seems to me that a campy, spammy ROB can win this matchup. ZSS may have the advantage in close but ROBs projectiles allow him to step back and create openings with the glide toss. It's also not easy to ledgeguard ROB because he can back away from the stage and gyro/laser ZSS edgegrab, then come up for a nair.

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The point is that only a campy, spammy ROB can win this match-up if he's otherwise equal to his opponent, and it'll still be really hard. Against ZSS, it's not enough to camp if you can't take over in the mid range.

stingers135 said:

Ledgeguarding stupid ROBs consists of spamming Side b and paralyzer shots
Ledgeguarding smart ROBs takes a bit more effort.

If you're playing a ROB who is on the ledge and you use Side B over and over and they don't get up, you deserve to 3 stock them.

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But look closely at this: I figured out how to ledge pressure with ZSS in the first month that the game was out. If it takes a smart ROB to beat a tactic that a three-year-old can figure out and do, that puts the advantage in ZSS's hands. If a smart ROB is up against a smart ZSS, he'll be hard pressed to get back on stage without taking a fair amount of damage.

ph00tbag said:

But look closely at this: I figured out how to ledge pressure with ZSS in the first month that the game was out. If it takes a smart ROB to beat a tactic that a three-year-old can figure out and do, that puts the advantage in ZSS's hands. If a smart ROB is up against a smart ZSS, he'll be hard pressed to get back on stage without taking a fair amount of damage.

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There's a logical fallacy somewhere there...


Anywho, I agree that the MU is in Zamus' favor, but not because of ROB's ineptitude on the ledge.

The ability to combo well, possessing a kill move that outranges everything ROB has (side-b), possessing a guaranteed way to end a stock resulting from a dsmash (which I really doubt outranges ftilt, maybe if ROB whiffs the ftilt and extends his hitbox, but I don't think it straight up can reach ROB, someone please verify? still have classes for a bit today), and the ability to glide-toss (lol everyone forgot about glidetosses, they're still important!) just as well as ROB can puts it solidly in her favor, as ROB's biggest strengths (projectiles/tilts/offstage) simply don't hold enough weight to swing it back into his favor.

But to address an earlier quote about Zamus being one of the best survivalist in the game, you do know that ROB is one of the best gimpers in the game, AND one of the best survivalists (lol at spikes)? Getting gimps isn't as easy as it is against say, Link, but it's still quite viable. Double jump -> up-b boost -> side b -> up-b ledge grab recovers an insaneamount of distance for someone who can't fly, but ROB can fly from FD to Battlefield (well, not that far), but sadly the ability to pressure well offstage doesn't offset the aforementioned weaknesses.

Well, after doing a lot of reading on the matchup, and theorizing, and even playing the matchup out... here's my take.

As Woly said, we've both been caught up in the infinite (and rightly so). However, armor pieces are a superb projectile because of ZSS's glide toss, their constant hitbox when being thrown, and their bouncing properties which are unlike almost every other character's items in the game. At the start of the match, ROB is in danger of eating a good 40-60% just from armor pieces and combos resulting from being hit with the armor pieces (either straight up, or through glide-toss set-ups and follow ups). Oh, and lets not forget there is the opportunity of landing a D-smash as a completion to an armor-piece set-up.

So, ROB is at a disadvantage in terms of percent from the get-go, which totally neutralizes our ability to camp. Our projectiles are too slow/laggy and ZSS is simply too fast and too mobile; combine those two facets and you wind up with ROB *having* to approach. This plays directly into what the ZSS player wants us to do. Therefore, from the get-go, we have to worry about armor pieces almost exclusively; either through utilizing a surprise offensive, or through smart camping- but still, its VERY hard to do so.

This forces ROB to approach, which as I said- is what the ZSS wants him to do. Through the use of her jabs, side B, U-tilt, and D-smash (more on that later), she completely dominates in the the middle, close-middle, and close-ranges. Yes, ROB still has his D- and F-tilt, and D-smash (D-tilt & D-smash being faster than ZSS' >B and D-smash), but its a moot point of ZSS can read it well, realizing that those are ROB's only viable options.

The fact that he can be infinited at any reasonable percent (I think I read that, let me know if Im wrong), means that he HAS to have a mentality of "Dont get grabbed bc its a stock" (in terms of spacing, and approaching) as if it were ICs. The problem- ZSS' D-smash has a longer range than IC grabs, ROBs moveset aren't built to handle the matchup as well in the event he does get in super close range (see: almost everything ROB has splits up the ICs).

The result of the armor pieces used early as damage building weapons & combo starters+being forced to approach bc of percentage differential+threat of being infinited (because of his increase of being within range) = ROB has a HUGE risk of loosing his first stock with ZSS at a LOW to low (from 25-60) percentage. From that point, its only a matter of ZSS playing keep-away and capitalizing on a rushed, pursuing ROB by using "run-away" down+Bs, turn-around side B's, and the possibility of capitalizing on a rushed ROBs frustration with yet another infinite.

Also, don't forget that ZSS can footstool jump our gyros and their armor pieces to launch themselves at us for a surprise approach that can end in a side-B, jab, or a d-smash (hello infinite).

And this is just while on the GROUND

If ZSS wants, she can easily punish ROBs concern for the D-smash by setting up situations that would normally call for a D-smash, only to U-tilt (if within range) which sets ROB up for a solid ****** in the air in his blind-spot, which ZSS takes advantage of with quick aerials like only a few characters REALLY can (MK, GaW, Mario, {all horrible matchups for ROB}), aerials that are just simply FASTER (when horizontal), and the use of ranged aerial side-Bs; and there really isn't a **** thing ROB can do about it.

As mentioned before, ZSS isn't nearly as gimp-able as people make her out to be. She has other options besides her tether recovery which can be used INSTEAD of the tether, IF the tether fails, or WITH the tether to not only become unpredictable in terms of how she will recover but also able to recover from odd positions (under stage lips, from really far away, etc) that many other characters can't.

Lasers, gyros (shot, thrown, glide-tossed offstage, or z-dropped or thrown down) can provide probelms when mixed in with F-airs, or B-airs. But side-B can beat ALL of these options if you take spacing into account. There isn't a "THIS is what you do to edgeguard ZSS" like with many other characters; its essentially to mix the timing, order, and requency of these options up as much as possible (while still remaining effective).

ZSS has good edgeguarding options as well. Aerials (U-, B-, F-air) all are quick enough to hit ROB during his vulnerable portions of Up+B, and can be chained (thanks to ZSS good horizontal recover options AND being high enough that she has lots of time to work herself back onto the stage) to work him up a stair-step to the corner of the stage. This can lead to the KO, but in the very least will build damage. This can also be ended with a side-B for the KO. From there, ZSS can chip at ROB as he descends. Once he gets to the ledge, he still isn't safe due to the many options mentioned.

The key to making this matchup LESS one-sided (note that I didn't say "In ROB's favor") is to find away around the armor assault at the beginning; either by shooting a quick laser and then grabbing the ledge and ledge-camping like you've never ledge-camped before, or finding a way to get rid of the armor without taking insane amounts of damage. Quarantine yourself to the outer fourths of the stage to give the infinite less room and to keep all the action in front of you, and camp intelligently. Once ZSS gets in Side-B range, gtfo of there.

Ratios ranging from 30/70 to 40/60; though probably around the 35/65 range- ZSS favor.

Just my two cents.

And just adding fuel to the fire, If the ZSS knows how to use the pieces well she can stop plankers. I usually try to keep pieces bouncing near the ledge which can hit you during your non-armor frames then pressure you while they are bouncing to make you air dodge then we got you.

JCaesar007 said:

ZSS thrives where ROB is least comfortable, just outside of ftilt range, too close to use his laggy projectiles.

Definitely in ZSS's favor, even without the infinite.

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Meh, one move (Forward B) can't destroy ROB's whole spacing game. SH back to laser/gyro, or simply PS to walking F Tilt.

Blistering Speed said:

Meh, one move (Forward B) can't destroy ROB's whole spacing game. SH back to laser/gyro, or simply PS to walking F Tilt.

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are you serious? theres more to that than just sideB, her incredibly fast jab's and ability to pressure from outside the f-tilt range, allows her to easily move inside rob, and knock him upward to further exploit his blindspot. what was it? zero start up frames? something like that. well thats freakin fast, i dont think PS->ftilt can deal with that.

rob needs to scare the shiz out of ZSS with some agressive play if ROB want to continue to space properly, cuz she can just weave in and out, around the projectiles.


edit: lol i didnt see Dull's post above -_-

Blistering Speed said:

Meh, one move (Forward B) can't destroy ROB's whole spacing game. SH back to laser/gyro, or simply PS to walking F Tilt.

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Her forward-B, neutral-B, down-B (not saying it's good but it is an option), and dsmash (if you ftilt from out of range) can all hit ROB from outside his ftilt range. She also has a good dash attack that combos into utilt, which puts ROB in a very bad position.

PS to walking ftilt doesn't work against a properly spaced forward-B. It has very little ending lag.

SH back to laser/gyro can work ok, but you can only do it for so long until you're off the stage, and you don't want to be on the ledge in this matchup if you can help it.

JCaesar007 said:

Her forward-B, neutral-B, down-B (not saying it's good but it is an option), and dsmash (if you ftilt from out of range) can all hit ROB from outside his ftilt range. She also has a good dash attack that combos into utilt, which puts ROB in a very bad position.

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So the only really applicable option is still forward B. Down B as you said is a bad option, neutral B is a slow projectile (you have better ones, np) and for D Smash, why would you F Tilt when out of range?

ipitydatfu said:

are you serious? theres more to that than just sideB, her incredibly fast jab's and ability to pressure from outside the f-tilt range, allows her to easily move inside rob, and knock him upward to further exploit his blindspot. what was it? zero start up frames? something like that. well thats freakin fast, i dont think PS->ftilt can deal with that.

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How is her jab outside outside F Tilt range? And you said there's more to it then just Side B, but then failed to mention anything else, you just talk about the jabs which weren't even relevant to my point.

First off (off topic) hey Dull ^_^

Okay lol, anyway, about this matchup.

Someone asked how fast her jab is. It comes out on frame 1.

The video about flipstools is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59M4hCN3wBQ

And this CAN be used for edgehogging opponents as well.

Wolydarg said:

from a dsmash (which I really doubt outranges ftilt, maybe if ROB whiffs the ftilt and extends his hitbox, but I don't think it straight up can reach ROB, someone please verify?

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It's more like a "tippered" dsmash outranges your ftilt, but otherwise not.

Wolydarg said:

Getting gimps isn't as easy as it is against say, Link, but it's still quite viable.

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Wolydarg said:

Double jump -> up-b boost -> side b -> up-b ledge grab recovers an insaneamount of distance for someone who can't fly.

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You forgot her flipstool. And the fact that she can use her upb more than once. I'm not saying that might apply here, but it's just good to note that ZSS doesn't have a helpless fall animation.

canthandletheSpeculosity said:

And just adding fuel to the fire, If the ZSS knows how to use the pieces well she can stop plankers. I usually try to keep pieces bouncing near the ledge which can hit you during your non-armor frames then pressure you while they are bouncing to make you air dodge then we got you.

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While I concede this point, when I meant "ledgecamp like you never have before", I meant... DONT get back up from there. Spend a whole minute there if you can. Wait till they stop bouncing, or vanish (they do, eventually, right?). Drop off the ledge and jump->up+B stall (cancelling with aerials) until they stop bounce; regrab... repeat until you are about 2/3 out of fuel and then attempt to get back on the edge...at least to refuel. While I concede that leaves ROB open for B-air spikes, and aggressive "off the edge" game from ZSS... the entire scenario is a high stakes gambling game and a series of reading & rereading your opponent, simple guesswork, and quick responses. I'm not saying ledgecamping is THE way to win it- but it at least minimizes the danger you put yourself in by NOT doing so.

Anyway... anyone want to recommend counterpicks (stages AND characters) and bans?

The suit pieces never vanish until they are lying motionless on the ground. We can keep them bouncing the entire match if there's no interference.

sasook said:

The suit pieces never vanish until they are lying motionless on the ground. We can keep them bouncing the entire match if there's no interference.

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Aah. Alright. I didn't know if they were like other items inasmuch that they can vanish while in the air at times. Also, hi.

lol Blistering speed you never told us you mained ZSS

All rob really has in this matchup that can help him is his ftilt. It DOES have some good range and is a good keep away move with it's priority. But that's all I can think of. It's really his tilts that I think it's 65/35 and not 7/3.

Blistering Speed said:

Meh, one move (Forward B) can't destroy ROB's whole spacing game. SH back to laser/gyro, or simply PS to walking F Tilt.

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we'll just PS and d-tilt you back.




now, to stop disregarding an entire move by saying "simply PS". Side-b really does wreck spacing. If a ZSS gets closer than side-b range, she can be in danger. ROB's d-tilt wrecks ZSS at close range. She can try to jab him out of it, but that just results in a shieldgrab or mindgames attempt (since the jab combo doesn't really combo). However, if you try anything other than d-tilt we'll probably connect with our d-tilt.


There's also a lot of people disregarding ROBs fair, that **** *****.

yea his fair out prios our dsmash

The infinite is an afterthought, this is arguably ROB's toughest match-up regardless, easily tougher than G&W (who just seems to get easier as time goes by...).

To quote a certain someone else, ROB's blind spot underneath is "the size of the moon" and ZSS is simply the best character in the game at taking advantage of it. Once ROB is put into the air, she's quick enough to stay underneath ROB as he jukes around and her vertical range is god-awful ridiculous. The horizontal range on her USmash and UAir are deceptively large and are both difficult to air dodge through due to their length and speed, respectively. Going to the ledge doesn't do a whole lot of good either, ZSS's ledgeguarding from the stage is every bit as bad as Marth. Hell, at high percents, if she chases you in the air with Up-B... just let her have it and guarantee you beat her back to the ground. :/ (And tech if you can!)

Playing a ground game is the only option ROB has in this match-up. Unfortunately, ZSS can pressure ROB with her spacing at the mid-range level ROB would start using projectiles against most other characters. Her speed beats ROB in close (1-Frame Jab, ******** priority UTilt, and whatnot) as well, giving ROB a very narrow range which works to his advantage.

Anyway, to address some other responses here... About recovery:

ROB sure isn't worried about ZSS's Side-B hitting during his Up-B. No, ROB can easily recover much higher or lower than ZSS can place it. In fact, ROB should have little trouble recovering low to reach the ledge, as his UAir will eat through ZSS's aerials if she comes off-stage and he can simply sweetspot the ledge if she tries to space something from the ground (DSmash the most likely candidate). However, once he's there, he's **** well stuck there. Spacing the Side-B or DSmash against ROB's ledgehop game is a joke. Ledgejumping is also risky business since it's going to put ROB directly above ZSS, exactly where he does NOT want to be, and she's too fast to just recover over the top and land behind her. Getting to the ledge is easy, it's getting on-stage that's a problem.

Calling ZSS's recovery "very solid" is an extreme overstatement. It might be "better than most people think" but it's hardly impressive and ROB should expect, if not NEED, gimp kills on a regular basis (at least once per match). A Z-dropped or down-thrown Gyro will flat-out knock ZSS right out of her tether, setting her ripe for the gimping as she pops straight up into a weak FAir and shoved back to her death. Her Down-B is easy to read-and-react against, as ROB can hold position with his Up-B as she nears and blast her out of the apex with a BAir, outside of the range she can successfully flipstool or kick out of it. (In fact, BAir will pretty much beat everything else too.) Simply hugging and waiting for her to approach the ledge will absolutely not work but the ball is pretty much in ROB's court here.

ph00tbag said:

Remember that even dsmash outranges ftilt (at least according to Snakeee). ROB's only recourse in this match is to run away, but ZSS's speed and aerial mobility make this tremendously difficult for ROB to do for long, and ROB's zoning options range from neutral to terrible, with really no advantageous spots.

ZSS also possesses two stellar CPs against ROB in Norfair and Brinstar, so if you ban one, she'll just take you to the other.

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Just based off memory, I'm pretty sure ZSS's DSmash does not outrange ROB's FTilt. Regardless of whether it does or not, the important thing is that ZSS has extreme disjointedness on her side. Where ROB can throw out "near-miss" FTilts to zone some other characters, doing that against a ZSS is going to end with him punching a DSmash or Side-B hitbox and getting punished. At least ZSS won't start the infinite from a DSmash that hits at ROB-extended-his-hurtbox-with-FTilt-and-got-hit-from-halfway-across-the-stage length, but still. -_-

Norfair, if it's allowed, should pretty much be auto-ban for ROB. Take me to Brinstar all day and I'll be thanking you for not picking Battlefield or even Yoshi's Island; the fly-through floor, if not a route of viable approach, is a welcome escape route from ZSS's otherwise domineering ledgeguarding. The floor can also be broken up to give ROB a potent camping position on one side of the stage. On the flip side, ZSS is extremely exploitable on certain stages herself, such as Japes.

Anyway... anyone want to recommend counterpicks (stages AND characters) and bans?

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Ban Norfair if it's allowed, otherwise ban Battlefield or wherever you feel least comofrtable, I suppose. Japes is an LOL CP against her because you can camp the side platforms all day as the ledge there completely destroys her ability to Side-B pressure you off it. Else, I'd say maybe...
Orpheon -- The first transformation has the ledgeless right side for easy gimps. Just camp the side platforms on the second half all day and she has no way to get under you.
Rainbow Cruise -- Camp the bottom/back end of the screen during the scrolling sections to protect your underside and make her risk a gimp or walk-off kill by approaching.
Lylat Cruise -- The uneven ground and tilting of the stage can screw with her Side-B usage but it doesn't help out much otherwise.

Characters, no idea. I hear Snake and Falco are supposed to be her toughest match-ups but I'm not sure if the new DSmash tricks have changed ZSS players' opinions about that.

And sorry for the super-lengthy post there. Even so, I may have more to say later. :/ I have to stop now and go to bed, though.