Should Metaknight be Banned? Take 3

Ravin · Apr 22, 2009

I really cant believe what I am reading.

Messiano · Apr 22, 2009

BOB SAGET said:
cant remember them all right now. theres arch knight, a guy named falco kid, he has an amazing falco. a guy named solo in brawl is very good. though ive gotten a lot better since then. wats wrong with online games. theres usually barely any lag.

LOL Whats Wrong with online games?

Every game has lag online no matter how close.

For example Counter-Strike You can be playing on a server which is located literally within a few miles of you, But the comparison to it in Person can't even be scaled.

Tell ya what why don't you just chill in free-for-all Online play and let us talk <3

One more thing those guys who are "Really Good" Don't know em. so prob not that good,

In my house the other night I had Wes, d1, reno, and Ninja link was also going to come but was stuck in the rain

When you can throw a name like that out fine, and not online either

(It means nothing on Wi-fi)

pure_awesome · Apr 22, 2009

I want to point out to everyone in this thread that if you're actually taking the time and space to post a response to Saget, then you're actually worse than he is.

Think about that for a second.

BOB SAGET · Apr 22, 2009

Messiano said:
LOL Whats Wrong with online games?

Every game has lag online no matter how close.

For example Counter-Strike You can be playing on a server which is located literally within a few miles of you, But the comparison to it in Person can't even be scaled.

Tell ya what why don't you just chill in free-for-all Online play and let us talk <3

One more thing those guys who are "Really Good" Don't know em. so prob not that good,

In my house the other night I had Wes,d1,reno and Ninja link was also going to come but was stuck in the rain

When you can throw a name like that out fine and not online either

(It means nothing on Wi-fi)

most of the online lag is barely noticable. and 1 user said MK isnt the best on wifi. then that must mean im even better in a real life match. i have counter strike by the way.

Ryusuta · Apr 22, 2009

pure_awesome said:
I want to point out to everyone in this thread that if you're actually taking the time and space to post a response to Saget, then you're actually worse than he is.

Think about that for a second.

I'd say that's not necessarily true. They could simply be tragically optimistic.

SSJ5Goku8932 · Apr 22, 2009

I wish I could of went anti ban instead of not sure :/

I am convinced now that MK is not broken( Known since then anyways)

He CAN be beat, some just need to improve.

BOB SAGET · Apr 22, 2009

deleted.....

OverLade · Apr 22, 2009

Messiano said:
LOL Whats Wrong with online games?

Every game has lag online no matter how close.

For example Counter-Strike You can be playing on a server which is located literally within a few miles of you, But the comparison to it in Person can't even be scaled.

Tell ya what why don't you just chill in free-for-all Online play and let us talk <3

One more thing those guys who are "Really Good" Don't know em. so prob not that good,

In my house the other night I had Wes,d1,reno and Ninja link was also going to come but was stuck in the rain

When you can throw a name like that out fine and not online either

(It means nothing on Wi-fi)

Online can be fun and teach matchup experience....

But nothing more. It's not an accurate depication of anything unless the connection is amazing and even then it's not entirely accurate.

I 3 stocked someone offline I lost to online in a yellow connection to put things in perspective.

BOB SAGET said:
cant remember them all right now. theres arch knight, a guy named falco kid, he has an amazing falco. a guy named solo in brawl is very good. though ive gotten a lot better since then. wats wrong with online games. theres usually barely any lag.

Never heard of any of those people.
AiB or GB or GTFO.

pure_awesome · Apr 22, 2009

lol Ally plays online all the time and advocates it.

And he's the 2nd best player in the world, as far as we can tell.

Sir 0rion said:
I'd say that's not necessarily true. They could simply be tragically optimistic.

As big a fan I am of optimism, I pray that's not true.

Black_Heretic · Apr 22, 2009

BOB SAGET said:
a guy named solo in brawl is very good.

Pit/Marth player? I know him IRL and he's never won a single match in tournament

Messiano · Apr 22, 2009

SSJ5Goku8932 said:
I wish I could of went anti ban instead of not sure :/

I am convinced now that MK is not broken( Known since then anyways)

He CAN be beat, some just need to improve.

I agree he can be beat, but another aspect some people aren't looking at is just the lack of use from almost every single character i mean it almost takes the fun and excitement out of a game then most people believe already lacks it, A temp ban isn't the end of the world In melee the top was pretty steady with a few choices. Marth, Fox, Shiek, Falco, C.Falcon, Peach, (I know I'm missing a few but I'm watching the Yankee game 13th inning ftl. It would be nice too see the meta game of other chars to improve and maybe open the scene up just a tad.

BOB SAGET · Apr 22, 2009

và a farti fottere!

Ryusuta · Apr 22, 2009

pure_awesome said:
lol Ally plays online all the time and advocates it.

And he's the 2nd best player in the world, as far as we can tell.

Actually, this IS an extremely valid point.

Messiano · Apr 22, 2009

It's a good point, But lets try to get back on topic of meta :\ Not to be mean or anything cause i agree, Great point but put the train back on the tracks and talk MK, My bads for getting off topic also.

SSJ5Goku8932 · Apr 22, 2009

Well, I do agree I am getting tired of seeing his mug in tourneys, but I have seen alot of Snakes and DDDs as well.

The player with the most skill usually wins.
Anyways, I find MKs more fun to fight than Campy Falcos and Snakes <_<.

Awesome: Ally has the mindgames.

pure_awesome · Apr 22, 2009

Great. Now that we can all agree that online is amazing and Nintendo couldn't possibly have done a better job on it, repost.

pure_awesome said:
This entire debate literally boils down to:

"Can we ban a character just because we feel like it?"

There's no solid reason to ban MK. At all. The community is growing every month and MK's presence isn't going to kill it for more than a handful of people that will be forgotten within a few months. Whether he has amazing tools, whether he's a god character, whether Shuttle Loop is overpowered or Whorenado is gay or Uair is too fast, he's not dominating tournaments to the extent that we need to ban him or the community will be dealt a massive blow. This may change in the future, but as of right now, this is what the situation is shaping up to be.

The majority of the community seems to recognize this, and seems to understand that while they want MK gone, it's not necessary.

Yes, it would suck for the people who don't want MK gone. Yes, it would suck for people like M2K who have put hours, days, weeks, into studying and learning their character. But unfortunately, the nature of our community dictates that we go with what the majority of relevant members of the community want. I practiced a ton with items when the game first game out, since I thought they would be legal. When they weren't, it was a huge blow and slowed me down alot. I lagged behind the rest of the community. But it's what the majority of the community wanted. I just spent an entire week last month working out the kinks to a Falco infinite on Corneria, only to find out that it's now banned. But the majority wants it banned. Majority rules. I'm sorry you think it's wasted time, but I can guarantee at least some of the things you learned from studying MK will carry over to whoever your new main ends up being. Hell, most of these guys already have **** secondaries. I've heard M2K's DDD is top 3 in the US.

So through this entire debate, we need only focus on two actual truths:

1. Metaknight is broken enough that the majority of the community wants him banned, simply because the competitive scene would be more interesting that way.
2. Metaknight is not broken enough that, at this point, it is necessary to ban him to ensure a healthy future for the competitive scene.

If we can all agree on those two points, and I think most of us can, then the only thing that we need to answer is:

"Can we ban a character just because we feel like it?"

I say no. Edreese says yes. Yet, we both want him to be banned.

Discuss.

Because I'm hijacking this thread to bring it back to where it belongs.

Asdioh · Apr 22, 2009

Praxis said:
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/cheating.html

So those were really interesting reads. Here is what struck me most:

That’s all well and good, but Japan has also shown signs of a soft-ban on another character in Super Turbo. I bring up this example because it lives on the threshold. It is just on the edge of what is reasonable to ban because it is “too good.” Anything less than this would not be reasonable, so perhaps others can use it as a benchmark to decide what is reasonable in their games.

The character in question is the mysteriously named “Old Sagat.” Old Sagat is not a secret character like Akuma (or at least he’s not as secret!). Old Sagat does not have any moves like Akuma’s air fireball that the game was not designed to handle. Old Sagat is arguably the best character in the game (Akuma, of course, doesn’t count), but even that is debated by top players! I think almost any expert player would rank him in the top three of all characters, but there isn’t even universal agreement that he is the best! Why, then, would any reasonable person even consider banning him? Surely, it must be a group of scrubs who simply don’t know how to beat him, and reflexively cry out for a ban.

But this is not the case. There seems to be a tacit agreement amongst top players in Japan—a soft ban—on playing Old Sagat. The reason is that many believe the game to have much more variety without Old Sagat. Even if he is only second best in the game by some measure, he flat out beats half the characters in the game with little effort. Half the cast can barely even fight him, let alone beat him. Other top characters in the game, good as they are, win by much more interaction and more “gameplay.” Almost every character has a chance against the other best characters in the game. The result of allowing Old Sagat in tournaments is that several other characters, such as Chun Li and Ken, become basically unviable.

If someone had made these claims in the game’s infancy, no sort of ban would be warranted. Further testing through tournaments would be warranted. But we now have ten years of testing. We don’t have all Old Sagat vs. Old Sagat matches in tournaments, but we do know which characters can’t beat him and as a result are very rarely played in America. We likewise can see that this same category of characters flourishes in Japan, where Old Sagats are rare and only played by the occasional violator of the soft ban. It seems that the added variety of viable characters might outweigh the lack of Old Sagat. Is this ban warranted then? To be honest, I am not totally convinced that it is, but it is just barely in the ballpark of reasonableness since there is a decade of data on which to base the claim.

Sounds very much like MK to me. The first part of the article "What should be banned" made me feel strongly that MK should not be banned, because he is too good, but he's not too good.

The second part "Cheating" gave an example (Old Sagat) which, while not specifically banned, was rarely used because it was commonly accepted that he made tons of characters essentially unplayable, and as a result, Japan has more character variety than USA.

HMMMMMM.

gm jack said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn9_pBEigGU&feature=channel

That is a character that is supposedly at a 65:35 disadvantage to MK.

Yes, but you're missing something. Sheik has a 65:35 disadvantage against MK. Shiek is only 45:55.

Praxis said:
Things that work online don't work offline. And MK is not the best character on WiFi. Under lag, Snake and G&W are both better.

But MK is still really ****ing good in lag. -_-
I'd rather play against him offline by far, as a Kirby main.

Ravin · Apr 22, 2009

I love how people continue to say there is no solid evidence on banning MK. Its not because we feel like it. He breaks the CP system.

Messiano · Apr 22, 2009

SSJ5Goku8932 said:
Well, I do agree I am getting tired of seeing his mug in tourneys, but I have seen alot of Snakes and DDDs as well.

The player with the most skill usually wins.
Anyways, I find MKs more fun to fight than Campy Falcos and Snakes <_<.

It's a good point(the snake and D3 part) but we will never know at this rate if maybe,...Just maybe the other characters can make a crack at top 10. Just because the top 1-3 Spots might be set in stone from most peoples' views doesn't mean you gotta throw the roster out.

Messiano · Apr 22, 2009

Honestly I think some of the smaller tourneys around Should try it Who cares, And you can do this for many reasons.

1) See what the results are (Do any unsung heroes get in the top 5
2) Get an idea of what the community thinks
3) Do more people show knowing this? Do less?
4) Then personal experiences changed? (People who were for the ban or against did they chance their minds)

EDIT: My bad for double post so many posts going i expected a few between them :\

pure_awesome · Apr 22, 2009

Ravin said:
I love how people continue to say there is no solid evidence on banning MK. Its not because we feel like it. He breaks the CP system.

The game's been out for a year. We shouldn't need to look at that anymore.

The only reason that we ever cared about him breaking the counterpick system was because we thought it was going to make him too good and hurt the community. All that's happened is that he's become very popular.

Let's say he does break the counterpick system. And Shuttle Loop is totally broken. And he has no disadvantageous matchups or stages or combinations of the two. It still wouldn't matter anymore because that's all theory. Looking at those facts, Metaknight would theoretically dominate the crap out of the metagame. But he's not. He's not dominating the scene enough that he needs to be banned. Even if he does break the CP system.

Why is he not dominating to that extent? I have no idea. Maybe it's something we can't put into words. It sure seems like he should be. But he's not. It's not necessary to ban him. If we do, it will strictly be because we feel like it.

BOB SAGET · Apr 22, 2009

Black_Heretic said:
Pit/Marth player? I know him IRL and he's never won a single match in tournament

no he's a ness,link,and luigi player. i got killed when i faced him. but that was long ago.

MarthFanatique · Apr 22, 2009

It seems illogical to allow a character in a competition if he has no real disadvantage. Every human has his flaws; so do video game characters. That's why why like them; they compliment our natural nature. Metaknight, however, has no real flaw (okay, so he doesn't have infinte jumps but his recovery is disgusting: 6 jumps, glide, shuttle loop into ANOTHER glide; if you aren't KO'ed off of the stage boundary you should most time recover). No real stage really plays against him either. I absolutely agree that if Metaknight was banned, the tourney scene would mix up at least a little. It would get interesting. It, in conclusion just isn't fair when you play extremely well with your character (well enough to be deemed one of the best players of your character) and you face up against a Metaknight and basically automatically lose. Jigglypuff mains (slim as they may be) have basically conceded defeat when encountering a Metaknight.

Ravin · Apr 22, 2009

pure_awesome said:
The game's been out for a year. We shouldn't need to look at that anymore.

The only reason that we ever cared about him breaking the counterpick system was because we thought it was going to hurt the community. All that's happened is that he's become very popular.

Let's say he does break the counterpick system. And Shuttle Loop is totally broken. And he has no disadvantageous matchups or stages or combinations of the two. It wouldn't matter anymore because that's all theory. Looking at those facts, Metaknight would theoretically dominate the crap out of the metagame. But he's not. He's not dominating the scene enough that he needs to be banned. Even if he does break the CP system.

This was also an excuse during the reason why "Melee's ats and most matchup, stages and ect were discussed and put together within a short period of time. And was all good to go and simply need modifying here and there.

And he does break the CP system. If it wasnt that serious as a lot of people make it out to be, I wouldnt be here.

He does dominate the metagame. He does centralize the brawl population.

If MK is pulling top 5 spots at almost every major tounry, thats a issue, when nearlt 33% of your compeitive players are MK, thats a problem.

When your boards are crashing and burning because people give up because they cant improve their metagames because everyone plays MK, Its a problem.

SSJ5Goku8932 · Apr 22, 2009

We could just host a side tourney right next to the real tourney with MK banned. Although, it may not get attention ( Or maybe no MK will attract people).

Never know till you try.

Messiano · Apr 22, 2009

Ravin said:
When your boards are crashing and burning because people give up because they cant improve their metagames because everyone plays MK, Its a problem.

That's a good point, I didn't take that into my view either,

I Remember the boards at first all of the Threads were thriving with posts.

now i hardly see the Mario boards or any other for that matter move other then one or two threads from time to time.

Messiano · Apr 22, 2009

SSJ5Goku8932 said:
We could just host a side tourney right next to the real tourney with MK banned. Although, it may not get attention ( Or maybe no MK will attract people).

Never know till you try.

Making it a Side tourney wont do much

1. Most side tourneys are just thought up on the spot.
2. Well....Its a side Tourney lol...

I think maybe a small post about it about 2-3 Weeks in advanced should do fine,
Or even at a weekly/Bi-Weekly, Just say hey next month on this week no MKs see how it goes plenty of heads up for everyone and of course if more info is needed you can get a hold of the venue or check the thread.

EDIT: wow....I'm failing hard with these Dub Posts...

Ravin · Apr 22, 2009

It happens. Now im going to go play more Left 4 Dead and get my last few gold medals. <3

pure_awesome · Apr 22, 2009

Ravin said:
This was also an excuse during the reason why "Melee's ats and most matchup, stages and ect were discussed and put together within a short period of time. And was all good to go and simply need modifying here and there.

And he does break the CP system. If it wasnt that serious as a lot of people make it out to be, I wouldnt be here.

He does dominate the metagame. He does centralize the brawl population.

If MK is pulling top 5 spots at almost every major tounry, thats a issue, when nearlt 33% of your compeitive players are MK, thats a problem.

When your boards are crashing and burning because people give up because they cant improve their metagames because everyone plays MK, Its a problem.

Pulling top 5 spots? He's the best character, he better place top 5 at every major tournament or we're going to have the wonder what the hell is wrong with our pros. Hell, I remember a stats list from two or three years ago that said that something like 40% of the competitive players mained Marth. Popularity isn't a valid reason.

Crashing and burning? What forum are you on?

The Brawl community has been getting bigger and bigger since the game came out. This isn't Smashboards, this is tournament level and attendance. The Smash community is staggeringly massive. We are not in any danger, whatsoever, of losing our scene just because one character has no disadvantageous matchups. It is not necessary that be ban MK.

Messiano said:
That's a good point, I didn't take that into my view either,

I Remember the boards at first all of the Threads were thriving with posts.

now i hardly see the Mario boards or any other for that matter move other then one or two threads from time to time.

The MK boards are one of the most dead.

Maybe it has something to do with all the "Flavour of the Month" fans leaving? Like on every other forum for a popular subject?

@HomE · Apr 22, 2009

pure_awesome said:
The game's been out for a year. We shouldn't need to look at that anymore.

The only reason that we ever cared about him breaking the counterpick system was because we thought it was going to make him too good and hurt the community. All that's happened is that he's become very popular.

Imagine if the 2000 posts in this one "ban MK thread" were in the character forums furthering the meta game of all the "undeveloped" characters. some character specific threads only have 12,000 total posts. this one thread has 1/6 of the TOTAL POSTS and this all happened in 2 days....

I guess im just saying we could be doing better things with all this effort, instead of *****ing about how the characters arn't developed we could be in our respective char specific forums doing something about it?

I dunno just sayin...

D1 · Apr 22, 2009

Since I use MetaKnight now to help me out whenever I have a bad matchup, I say not to ban MetaKnight.

But thats just me being biased.

If he was banned I'd truly say there'd be more variety...but since a year passed and I've seen so many MKs in the scene and some of 'em even get beaten by great players who don't use MK...I've come to the conclusion that he shouldnt' be banned even though he is potentially ****** the growth of the metagame of other characters since people are just going to flock to him if their main isn't doing the job.

It makes sense anyway since we're all playing to win the green in the end...

...honor is a thing of the past.

OmegaXis · Apr 22, 2009

King Beef said:
First point is unnecessary. Second point is subjective. Third point...the MK that you play must not be that skilled if they're not ****** the matchup.

Try again.

No, The Meta Knight was Very Very good. I have an averege skill level I am told by most around here.

pure_awesome · Apr 22, 2009

That's not how metagames work.

It's not like... every 1,000 posts, you get a new AT. 96% of a characters' metagame evolution is done in matches, maybe 2% from face-to-face discussion, 1% from the forum, and 1% from M2K's dreams.

Messiano · Apr 22, 2009

pure_awesome said:
The MK boards are one of the most dead.

Maybe it has something to do with all the "Flavour of the Month" fans leaving? Like on every other forum for a popular subject?

It Could be that, It could be MK is all found out and everything is laid out.
It Could be a bunch of things.

Lol and I think you are making great points, It's Just this argument wont ever end until its done with in terms of either

Banning MK seeing what happens, And then if he gets unbanned and people complain people can use the good old line of "Remember the last time we did that"

or the law needs to be laid down and make a standard that can't be discussed unless something really crazy happens.

@HomE · Apr 22, 2009

pure_awesome said:
That's not how metagames work.

It's not like... every 1,000 posts, you get a new AT. 96% of a characters' metagame evolution is done in matches, maybe 2% from face-to-face discussion, 1% from the forum, and 1% from M2K's dreams.

Well I DEFINATLY said at exactly 1000 posts a new AT for every char is found, I'm glad you quoted me on that, because you took those words straight from my mouth...amazing job

I was simply saying, we are wasting time blowing hot air up each others *** holes when we could be working on the meta game for the "under-developed" chars.

Is that such a bad idea?

Am I evil?

|RK| · Apr 22, 2009

Huh. I suppose that I don't care about the CP system since I don't CP. Thing is, the best players don't always counterpick, they at least try against their matchups, to learn how to beat them. Then again, my character doesn't go any lower or higher than 40:60/60:40, so...

Oh, this is getting nowhere. I'd spam this place with daily jokes, but I'd get infracted.

Shadow 111 · Apr 22, 2009

D1 said:
Since I use MetaKnight now to help me out whenever I have a bad matchup, I say not to ban MetaKnight.

But thats just me being biased.

If he was banned I'd truly say there'd be more variety...but since a year passed and I've seen so many MKs in the scene and some of 'em even get beaten by great players who don't use MK...I've come to the conclusion that he shouldnt' be banned even though he is potentially ****** the growth of the metagame of other characters since people are just going to flock to him if their main isn't doing the job.

It makes sense anyway since we're all playing to win the green in the end...

...honor is a thing of the past.

i completely agree with you D1. If mk is banned i don't think i can get top 5 anymore.......... i am way too far behind to catch up to everyone... not good -_-.
i have a feeling mk will be banned soon though.

Messiano · Apr 22, 2009

Shadow 111 said:
i completely agree with you D1. If mk is banned i don't think i can get top 5 anymore.......... i am way too far behind to catch up to everyone... not good -_-.
i have a feeling mk will be banned soon though.

Yes but with all the experience you have gained playing in tough spots in tough fights, For you too pick up and invest what you may have learned in those experiences in a different character might not be as bad as you think.

And I know you personally and have seen you play, you have the mind games to pick up other characters

fissionprime · Apr 22, 2009

@HomE said:
I was simply saying, we are wasting time blowing hot air up each others *** holes when we could be working on the meta game for the "under-developed" chars.

The problem with that is that "working" on a characters metagame isn't really an effective way to develop that character's metagame. It mostly comes from usage of the characters and chance findings of new strategies.

Supermodel From Paris · Apr 22, 2009

Look, we play a game that isn't designed to be played competitively. We acknowledge that (or we should). Even if you played melee competitively, you had to acknowledge that the game wasn't designed to be played that way. As such, we make changes or concessions to the game in order to preserve a competitive atmosphere. We ban items, certain stages. We set a stock limit and use a (mostly arbitrary) time limit. We impose restrictions on sudden deaths (for instance, the Bowser and Ganondorf rules). These are not game rules, these are things we made up because we thought they would be better for competition.

Why are we not playing the game with all items and smash balls on? Why are we not doing epic tourney matches with a 2 minute time limit on Rumble Falls? The answer is because they don't foster the competitive atmosphere we have come to expect from the game.

We play a game that was not designed for competition. Meta Knight belongs in the same place the rest of our concessions that don't foster healthy competition do: on the ban list.

Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

Should Metaknight be banned?

Yes

No

Not Sure

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Apprentice

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Smash Apprentice

Smash Hero

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Smash Lord

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Smash Master

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Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Not Asidoh

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Apprentice

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Banned via Administration

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Smash Ace

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Smash Hero

Information

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Should Metaknight be Banned? Take 3