Falcon Moveset Discussion: summaries coming soon

kamimari36 · Apr 24, 2009

Yeah, I hate Raptor Boost too.
I only use it as a recovery when I know it's safe, but as an attack, its only good to punish.
I mostly use it, however, when Jiggs, Kirby, or MK tries to Wall Of Pain me. It's risky, but it's better than getting ko'd. Take them down with you!

<π · Apr 24, 2009

I think pound beats it!
jiggly for lyfe!.. jigglyfe!

falcon has to have better moves than these... maybe we are doing it wrong?

PK-ow! · Apr 24, 2009

The only quasi-regular way I ever land this move is out of a dash, through stuttering my rhythm with it.

That is, dashing at my opponent, and at a particular distance that is slightly affected by character, Raptor Boost. Falcon stops in place then shoots forward again. Some people's timing is thrown off.

Of course, this does not work consistently by its very nature. It can only work at a point where you've started to predict your opponent, and you can make him do something that isn't shield when you dash at him.

Aerial RB sucks. The bounce in this case means you get punished even if you hit.

Sometimes though, RB can work against slow falling opponents at a certain height, since the attack box deploys any time the opponent is where Falcon's fist would be were he to punch at that moment. So then RB becomes like another character's air-approach-stifling ftilt. Falcon's Jab doesn't have the range, and ftilt has too much lag to get an advantage, but RB works for that.

.... hmm.... I wonder, if you abused IASA ftilt... to make the enemy roll, and then start using RB instead...
No, it's too crazy.

t3h n00b · Apr 24, 2009

kamimari36 said:
Yeah, I hate Raptor Boost too.
I only use it as a recovery when I know it's safe, but as an attack, its only good to punish.
I mostly use it, however, when Jiggs, Kirby, or MK tries to Wall Of Pain me. It's risky, but it's better than getting ko'd. Take them down with you!

<3 said:
I think pound beats it!
jiggly for lyfe!.. jigglyfe!

falcon has to have better moves than these... maybe we are doing it wrong?

If you're getting juggled, just uair. Or jump away... I play a Jiggs main all the time and almost never get gimped.

PK-ow! said:
The only quasi-regular way I ever land this move is out of a dash, through stuttering my rhythm with it.

That is, dashing at my opponent, and at a particular distance that is slightly affected by character, Raptor Boost. Falcon stops in place then shoots forward again. Some people's timing is thrown off.

Of course, this does not work consistently by its very nature. It can only work at a point where you've started to predict your opponent, and you can make him do something that isn't shield when you dash at him.

Aerial RB sucks. The bounce in this case means you get punished even if you hit.

Sometimes though, RB can work against slow falling opponents at a certain height, since the attack box deploys any time the opponent is where Falcon's fist would be were he to punch at that moment. So then RB becomes like another character's air-approach-stifling ftilt. Falcon's Jab doesn't have the range, and ftilt has too much lag to get an advantage, but RB works for that.

.... hmm.... I wonder, if you abused IASA ftilt... to make the enemy roll, and then start using RB instead...
No, it's too crazy.

Ftilt isn't a laggy move, especially if you angle it. Raptor boost is definitely not the move to use when you want less lag than something else.

Zeallyx · Apr 24, 2009

Ville said:
Otherwise the move is complete bull****, such as most of Falcons moves except Jab/Ulti/Uair/Bair/Grab

And Dtilt/Ftilt and Nair

Player-3 · Apr 24, 2009

i love this move

it gets opponents up into the air, which makes me cream since my ground game is mediocre at best

although its only good to use when your punishing rolls/spot dodges from a distance, you can use this move as a mobility option, and alot of other things

although in the air, i hate it with a passion

grounded RB <3333

FAILchion- · Apr 24, 2009

You should be ashamed making fun of Raptor Boost like that. D: Raptor Boost is a rather... completely situational move; its usefulness depends ENTIRELY on timing, percentage, and DI. It can TC, follow up excellently into more moves, punish pretty well, and (although I hate to use it in this situation) spike in the air, allowing gimps. If you miss, it can cost you a stock (whether you fall off the edge or your opponent just completely omgwtfpwns you), so be very cautious and one step ahead when using this move. 6/10.

Edit: I've also noticed that if positioned very accurately + good DI, it makes an excellent edgehogger.

Player-3 · Apr 24, 2009

FAILchion- said:
You should be ashamed making fun of Raptor Boost like that. D: Raptor Boost is a rather... completely situational move; its usefulness depends ENTIRELY on timing, percentage, and DI. It can TC, follow up excellently into more moves, punish pretty well, and (although I hate to use it in this situation) spike in the air, allowing gimps. If you miss, it can cost you a stock (whether you fall off the edge or your opponent just completely omgwtfpwns you), so be very cautious and one step ahead when using this move. 6/10.

Edit: I've also noticed that if positioned very accurately + good DI, it makes an excellent edgehogger.

<333333333333333333

RB = underrated

Zeallyx · Apr 24, 2009

FAILchion- said:
You should be ashamed making fun of Raptor Boost like that. D: Raptor Boost is a rather... completely situational move; its usefulness depends ENTIRELY on timing, percentage, and DI. It can TC, follow up excellently into more moves, punish pretty well, and (although I hate to use it in this situation) spike in the air, allowing gimps. If you miss, it can cost you a stock (whether you fall off the edge or your opponent just completely omgwtfpwns you), so be very cautious and one step ahead when using this move. 6/10.

Edit: I've also noticed that if positioned very accurately + good DI, it makes an excellent edgehogger.

Not really.
When you compare this move to ´good´ (as in, 6 out of 10 moves) from other characters, this move is a 2 at best.
As this move is a part of a game with far better, more rewarding moves with less risks attached to them, this move is crap. And it is.

Even for falcon there are better options in alot of situations. Not saying you shouldnt use this move in your game, as it, unfortunatly, is a part of falcons current metagame, but you should limit its use to only punishing (rolls), as the ending lag of both an aerial and grounded raptor boost can break you.

And that this moves doesnt set up for anything guaranteed, doesnt help it either.

2/10 at best.

Player-3 · Apr 24, 2009

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
Not really.
When you compare this move to ´good´ (as in, 6 out of 10 moves) from other characters, this move is a 2 at best.
As this move is a part of a game with far better, more rewarding moves with less risks attached to them, this move is crap. And it is.

Even for falcon there are better options in alot of situations. Not saying you shouldnt use this move in your game, as it, unfortunatly, is a part of falcons current metagame, but you should limit its use to only punishing (rolls), as the ending lag of both an aerial and grounded raptor boost can break you.

And that this moves doesnt set up for anything guaranteed, doesnt help it either.

2/10 at best.

So what sets up for something thats guarenteed

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Apr 24, 2009

Has anyone done a completed frame data thread for falcon? All I can find are incomplete ones that only have a handful of moves with pretty mucht the basics, "hits on frame" and "ends on frame"

Also, what would you think of CF if the knee and punch had knockback like the homerun bat's OHKO knockback at 0%?

Zeallyx · Apr 24, 2009

Player-3 said:
So what sets up for something thats guarenteed

Nothing, really. (apart from the combo's falcon does have left, like jab>grab, and first hit Nair>jab, but these are situational.) making the faster, less risky moves, with the same reward/greater reward way more practical than RB.
Making RB almost useless.

Player-3 · Apr 24, 2009

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
Nothing, really. (apart from the combo's falcon does have left, like jab>grab, and first hit Nair>jab, but these are situational.) making the faster, less risky moves, with the same reward/greater reward way more practical than RB.
Making RB almost useless.

again its just my style of how i play, but since i prefer to fight in the air with falcon, and RB sends people MUCH higher than all of falcons ground moves, except for maybe uthrow i like to use it and then have time to predict an airdodge/punish lag/etc

t3h n00b · Apr 24, 2009

__crystal____ said:
Has anyone done a completed frame data thread for falcon? All I can find are incomplete ones that only have a handful of moves with pretty mucht the basics, "hits on frame" and "ends on frame"

Also, what would you think of CF if the knee and punch had knockback like the homerun bat's OHKO knockback at 0%?

Thanks for not making a new thread on this, but you'd probably have people pay more attention to your question in the Q&A thread. But the answer to your question is no, but there is one in the works, although I'm not sure when it will be finished. And I'm not talking about Noodlehead's, as far as I know, he's not working on it anymore, but there is a new collection of frame data that has started (not in a thread yet). To answer your second question, I think it would be boring.

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
Nothing, really. (apart from the combo's falcon does have left, like jab>grab, and first hit Nair>jab, but these are situational.) making the faster, less risky moves, with the same reward/greater reward way more practical than RB.
Making RB almost useless.

I don't think anyone is saying to RB when you could jab. It is just an alternative way of getting people up in the air. If you can't get in jab range, there is no way to jab>grab>uthrow, making RB the best way to get an opponent into the air (Falcon's forte, imo) from long ranges. RB may not be guaranteed, but it is often practical. I'm not saying that everyone has to use it, but like Player-3, I find it useful to my style of play. If an opponent is chasing me, I sometimes walk away and RB backwards. Yes, it is punishable if you miss, but the worst that can happen in the vast majority of situations is a grab. Raptor Boost is pretty much an unexpected upthrow, or at least that's how I use it.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Apr 24, 2009

t3h n00b said:
Thanks for not making a new thread on this, but you'd probably have people pay more attention to your question in the Q&A thread. But the answer to your question is no, but there is one in the works, although I'm not sure when it will be finished. And I'm not talking about Noodlehead's, as far as I know, he's not working on it anymore, but there is a new collection of frame data that has started (not in a thread yet). To answer your second question, I think it would be boring.

I got the Q&A thread mixed up with this thread somehow xD Thanks for answering anyway.

Iwan · Apr 25, 2009

I use Raptor boost out of a stutter step; i.e....dash the complete opposite way of my opponent, and then raptor boost towards them. I also use it as a tech chase when I KNOW which direction they're going to roll (prediction, etc.)

I also (unlike....like....all of you....rofl.....xD) use it as a bait move; I'll totally just throw it out sometimes when my opponent won't approach me, then they'll try and dash at me to grab me while I'm experiencing ending lag.

Ending lag ends before they get to me.
I shield Grab them.
Aerial....Game. Blouses.

...hahaha.

I also use it as an offensive recovery (scaring people at the thought of a potential spike), planking (although Up B is way better for that), annd...that's it.

Other than that, it shouldn't be used often. Against good players, over using RB will get you punished. They'll grab you, they'll hit you with a smash attack, they'll....

they'll get you o_o

hahaha. Use it with caution, and use it sparingly, because using any move with that much lag on it always has a risk VS reward.....and a player should always factor in whether or not the possible reward is worth the possible risk.

In this case, it's usually never worth it, imo.

t3h n00b · Apr 27, 2009

While we're on the topic of moves that are situational at best and a lot of people don't like, how about Falcon Kick?

<π · Apr 27, 2009

falcon kick is worse than raptor.

talkingbeatles · Apr 27, 2009

I kind of like this move. I find myself using it in the air though, more often then on the ground.

Although if I get too happy with the air borne falcon kick, then I get punished for it a lot. So maybe I shouldn't use it like that. I don't know...

Often when I use it on the ground, against my brother, who plays Ness and Wario a lot, I will get punished before the move even ends, since the kick hardly knocks them anywhere.

Zeallyx · Apr 27, 2009

Refrain from using falcon kick, especially at low percents.

If you really want to use falcon kick (wich I advise you not to, but if you really like it/think its good), use it when the opponent has over 80 or so percent damage damage (for chars like jigglypuff, so against characters like bowser/snake (the heavier chars) this damage percent is around 100-110) to make sure you will not be able to get punished when you actually connect with the falcon kick, and only for punishing (rolls).

This is a very very very bad move.
The risk/reward scale is severely out of balance with this move.
It just wont pay off in any other situation as I mentioned above.

Falcon kick is a very very very bad move

You will get punished if used in any other situation as I mentioned in this post.

It is also very easily shieldgrabbed.

And the same with aerial falcon kick (apart from beeing ' easily' shieldgrabbed):

can only be used if you are completely sure of your opponents next action. (wich is practically never)., and even when it hits you can be punished for using it. (when the opponent doesnt have a lot of percent damage.

On the other hand, falcon kick>ledgecancels, without hitting the opponent with said falcon kick, is great for mindgames when edgeguarding.
I use it, and it works wonder

.

_Tiamat_ · Apr 27, 2009

Beside what was mentioned already...

Falcon Kick have two hitboxes and one of them is way harder to punish than the other. The first few feet the kick travel knock them at an angle with fair power (can even kill at like 130% maybe) so if you can nail them with this you'll probably be able to react before they can hit you unless they are at very low %

The problem is the rest of the hitbox, the one I wish was better for punishing, this hitbox only send them upward very weakly so they can nearly always come back down with an aerial stronger than what you just hit them with.

Aerial Falcon Kick can also hit twice at low % if the opponent is grounded for pretty decent damage, normal fire damage + little weird shockwave hitbox.

bow master1 · Apr 27, 2009

how can i use falco's back kick more effectively?

t3h n00b · Apr 27, 2009

bow master1 said:
how can i use falco's back kick more effectively?

What move are you referring to? And Falco, or Falcon?

Zeallyx · Apr 27, 2009

t3h n00b said:
What move are you referring to? And Falco, or Falcon?

He mixed up the falco board with the falcon board. And on the falcon board wich he thought was the falco board, he mixed up the moveset discussion with the Q&A thread.

t3h n00b · Apr 27, 2009

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
He mixed up the falco board with the falcon board. And on the falcon board wich he thought was the falco board, he mixed up the moveset discussion with the Q&A thread.

Oh, thanks. That sounds intense lol

I was playing a Kirby on the AiB ladder and got utilt chained, with no second jump left. Instead of takin 50% of damage, or Falcon Diving into a grab or smash, I used Falcon Kick and it worked. I think that's another good use for the move, anything else would have gotten outranged by the utilt.

talkingbeatles · Apr 27, 2009

t3h n00b said:
Oh, thanks. That sounds intense lol

I was playing a Kirby on the AiB ladder and got utilt chained, with no second jump left. Instead of takin 50% of damage, or Falcon Diving into a grab or smash, I used Falcon Kick and it worked. I think that's another good use for the move, anything else would have gotten outranged by the utilt.

Yeah I often find myself punishing overeager opponents trying to come up from under me at an angle, especially at high percents.

Also, on Pokemon Stadium 2, when the gravity gets all funky, the range of your FK in the air, I think, gets extended.

FAILchion- · Apr 27, 2009

Falcon Kick... not that great. At low percentages, it's extremely easy to punish, even if you actually land it. The move has rather low priority, low knockback, and is practically only good for punishing rolls. Not even using the move in the air makes it better; in fact, if you hit the ground, you suffer a ****load of lag, calling for an easy punish. 3/10.

smashkng · Apr 27, 2009

At least Falcon Kick can be used to stop knockback when hit that otherwise would KO.

Zeallyx · Apr 27, 2009

smashkng said:
At least Falcon Kick can be used to stop knockback when hit that otherwise would KO.

Not really.
Uair does the job just as well/better.

Face124 · Apr 27, 2009

Sup.
Back from Melee now, that game sure gets boring with only two opponents. Yes, MELEE GETS BORING.

I am however, a G-dawg main now, but really if you play Falcon once, you can never fully leave him.

Anyway. FK's a move that doesn't have many practical combat uses, but I use more for random nifty **** like FKLC, AFK'ing DK's recovery (Skip's right, it's nothing short of sexy), AFK'ing weak shields or AFK'ing when recovering from a vert blow.

And Falchion, I find myself listening to Aeroplane more after you said you liked it, I used to think it was just average, but it's good

My friend's is me new favourite tho.

kamimari36 · Apr 27, 2009

I use FK on battlefield, when I'm on the platforms. Good for an early hit and run.
If I do land a FK on the ground, I immediately use Utilt.

t3h n00b · Apr 27, 2009

FAILchion- said:
Falcon Kick... not that great. At low percentages, it's extremely easy to punish, even if you actually land it. The move has rather low priority, low knockback, and is practically only good for punishing rolls. Not even using the move in the air makes it better; in fact, if you hit the ground, you suffer a ****load of lag, calling for an easy punish. 3/10.

It actually has a ton of priority, but that's really it's only good attribute.

smashkng said:
At least Falcon Kick can be used to stop knockback when hit that otherwise would KO.

Specials can't be used until after the first phase of hitstun ends. By that time, you will either be dead from the knockback, or you will avoid the blastzone as long as you hold towards the stage. If you momentum cancel with an aerial, momentum-changing specials (and jumps) actually give a boost away from the stage when you use them. Falcon Kick can aid recovery by falling at a different speed or deterring an edgeguarder, but it is often hard/impossible to get back after doing so, since you don't get your second jump back like in Melee. If you want to stop knockback vertically, fastfall any aerial, and to stop horizontal knockback, uair then immediately jump.

Darxmarth23 · Apr 27, 2009

Don't use this move.

Eva'

Zeallyx · Apr 27, 2009

Darxmarth23 said:
Don't use this move.

Eva'

this.^
reasoning for this^ in one of my previous posts.

In short: better/just as good/safer options are always present.

Player-3 · Apr 27, 2009

use this move.

after your opponent is flying off the top of the screen to lose their last stock and you want to be all like

HEY ***** I JUST BEAT YOU SO IM GONNA FALCON KICK OFFSTAGE WHilE YOU DIE

Iwan · Apr 28, 2009

I try and keep the use of this move to a minumum; Like TKONTK said, there are always better and SAFER options present.

The ending lag kills this move...in fact, if you could end this move by pressing b again, it would be AWESOME. But you can't. lol.

I do use it at certain percents though, when they've taken enough damage to the point that FC will send them flying away far enough for me to be safe after ending lag. I also use it when I predict they'll run at me and try a dash attack.

Other than that though....bad to use at low percents (you'll get naired/faired), bad to use in the air, bad to use at a distance.

Psychoace · Apr 28, 2009

ledge canceled falcon kicks.

Darxmarth23 · Apr 28, 2009

All I see this as is a taunt. Nothing more.

Mit · Apr 28, 2009

I only use this to punish when my opponent is at high percents. It seems like it's the only move I can do sometimes when my opponent is playing defensively and spamming lots of projectiles. If they're at a high percent, you can usually fly in there and hit them, and they should get knocked back far enough to that they won't be able to punish you. This will atleast slow down their spammage, and you can maybe follow up with some aerial options.

That's it though.

Er, I also use it to punish people who charge up smashes. Fly towards them, bait their upsmash, double jump right before it and then immediately shove a falcon kick down their throat. If you don't immediately do this after double jump-dodging the usmash, you probably aren't gonna do it fast enough and your opponent will spot-dodge or shield or something. This usually gets the double hit though for that 20+ damage. I only do this when I'll for sure hit them.

masterdrenin · Apr 28, 2009

JUMP AND FALCON KIYICK RIGHT ON TOP OF THEIR FACES

seriously, they don't expect
otherwise, use sparingly/to punish yee (when ur far i guess)

Falcon Moveset Discussion: summaries coming soon

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