B!squick
Smash Master
Props then MrEh. Caring by not caring. :D
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A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread
- Thread starter Uncle
- Start date
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
I was about to say it was 50-50 pre-CG and ask how much you guys thought it changed the match-up, but w/e. Kirk still ain't here to clarify the stuff and I don't care that much. Not exactly many Ikes and Bowsers out there. XD Just be aware I believe that once we get to numbers we will end up putting it down as 6-4 Ike's favor as IIRC that is what most of them believe. >_> Assuming that the guy running the match-ups come back....
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
^ Well, you know, we know EVERYONE underestimates Bowser. Ike boards probably think he's slow, too. -.-
B!squick
Smash Master
Yeah, when you get called slow by Snake... D:
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
I don't remember really. We're Ike however, we're used to misused "too slow" claims as well, along with very weird.......claims about what our character can and can't do. *glares at PT, Luigi, and Lucario boards*
In other random news, I will likely be trying Bowser in my next tournament, provided I end up going against the right characters. Last time I ended up VSing Marth, Espy's Sonic (ouch), and Snake and I felt Ike was better for all of those match-ups.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Meh, I just put it down as 45-55, in case the chaingrab actually works. lol
Mario now.
Mario now.
MorphedChaos
Smash Lord
Cape, FLUUD, and his utlt to uair combos at low percentage, other then that bowser pretty much owns him.
MrEh
Smash Hero
I already posted my opinion in the Mario boards months ago.
I think it's even, but just because of that darn cape.
I think it's even, but just because of that darn cape.
I lol'ed. ^^
fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
Meh, I'm not a great Mario player, but Mario has an easier time gimping and comboing, whereas Bowser outranges and overpowers Mario. (Though Bowser can also gimp Mario.)
Mario does generally have quicker moves, BUT that is not to say Bowser is slow, and he has some quick attacks as well, especially his jab.
Does Bowser have anything out of grab releases on Mario?
Being a big target also makes Bowser easier to hit with Mario's Fsmash, which generally makes killing easier.
Mario can camp more effectively than Bowser, but Bowser shouldn't have much trouble getting through fireballs.
Both have GTFO moves, and invul on startup OoS options, though Mario's leaves him more open to attack.
Not really sure what the actual numbers should be though. I used Kirby against the only good Bowser I've fought (Sliq).
Mario does generally have quicker moves, BUT that is not to say Bowser is slow, and he has some quick attacks as well, especially his jab.
Does Bowser have anything out of grab releases on Mario?
Being a big target also makes Bowser easier to hit with Mario's Fsmash, which generally makes killing easier.
Mario can camp more effectively than Bowser, but Bowser shouldn't have much trouble getting through fireballs.
Both have GTFO moves, and invul on startup OoS options, though Mario's leaves him more open to attack.
Not really sure what the actual numbers should be though. I used Kirby against the only good Bowser I've fought (Sliq).
B!squick
Smash Master
Just because Bowser is big, doesn't mean that killing is easier. He IS the heaviest character in the game, you know, and thus lives to the highest percents. And even if you do get the ax, you should know already that the princess will just be in another castle.
even imo. Bowser has a ridiculous defensive game and makes attacking on shield stupid because of his stupid good OOS options. He can has useful grab releases on Mario like grab release -> Klaw, so every grab will jack up our damage fairly quickly. He's killing insanely low through too many moves to count, all of which should be ending the stock around 100%, some lower.
Mario, on the other hand, combos Bowser well, gimps him rather well when his timing's on, and can kill as low as 120% with Fsmash. Fireballs often bounce high enough to hit while klaw hopping and also hit if you jump and fireball while he's doing it. Fludd barely does anything to Bowser from my experience besides slow his upB while rarely gimping him outright. UpB is also a decent option against klaw hopping if you're feeling gutsy.
It's pretty simple really. If you attack Bowser haphazardly as Mario and do stupid things like attack his shield too much, you get wrecked. Not only are you taking insane amounts of damage, but you're probably not going to live long.
By that same token, if you let Mario get in or let him combo you too often or gimp you too often/early, you suffer the same fate. A pretty even match as long as both parties know their role.
I'm curious. I was recently told that "DK is not slow" when being compared to Mario. I was following THIS thread and then heard that both you and the Snake boards don't think you're slow. Ike boards have been saying for a looooong time that THEY're not slow. Spadefox came to our boards and threatened us with the wrath of the Gods with "don't post silly things like that Bowser is slow you cocky mofos (paraphrasing).
I play a little Bowser myself, and he feels slow. Slower than Ike, Snake, and DK. I'm actually pretty positive that I'm not playing him to the level of even the average Bowser, but I can't see him being anything other than slow.
Mario, on the other hand, combos Bowser well, gimps him rather well when his timing's on, and can kill as low as 120% with Fsmash. Fireballs often bounce high enough to hit while klaw hopping and also hit if you jump and fireball while he's doing it. Fludd barely does anything to Bowser from my experience besides slow his upB while rarely gimping him outright. UpB is also a decent option against klaw hopping if you're feeling gutsy.
It's pretty simple really. If you attack Bowser haphazardly as Mario and do stupid things like attack his shield too much, you get wrecked. Not only are you taking insane amounts of damage, but you're probably not going to live long.
By that same token, if you let Mario get in or let him combo you too often or gimp you too often/early, you suffer the same fate. A pretty even match as long as both parties know their role.
I'm curious. I was recently told that "DK is not slow" when being compared to Mario. I was following THIS thread and then heard that both you and the Snake boards don't think you're slow. Ike boards have been saying for a looooong time that THEY're not slow. Spadefox came to our boards and threatened us with the wrath of the Gods with "don't post silly things like that Bowser is slow you cocky mofos (paraphrasing).
I play a little Bowser myself, and he feels slow. Slower than Ike, Snake, and DK. I'm actually pretty positive that I'm not playing him to the level of even the average Bowser, but I can't see him being anything other than slow.
SkylerOcon
Tiny Dancer
Discussing Mario versus Bowser is pointless. This isn't a match-up that has any hidden intricacies that aren't immediately noticeable. You don't really even need any expirience! Anybody can tell just by looking at the two characters play one time that the match-up is either even, or barely, barely, 55-45 Mario.
Painfully obvious, that.
In any case, Mario has combos, gimping, and (decent) killing. Bowser has range, higher damaging attacks, and excellent killing. Not to mention that darn Fair. However, Bowser's recovery gets wrecked by the cape.
Not to mention that Mario has the ax.
Painfully obvious, that.
In any case, Mario has combos, gimping, and (decent) killing. Bowser has range, higher damaging attacks, and excellent killing. Not to mention that darn Fair. However, Bowser's recovery gets wrecked by the cape.
Not to mention that Mario has the ax.
Vex Kasrani
Smash Master
IDC if your a mod, thats a stupid thing to say. I do agree its even though.
SkylerOcon
Tiny Dancer
It was an exaggeration.
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
Yeah I honestly think this MU is 50-50. There's nothing that really stands out with either Mario or Bowser [with the exception of Mario's cape...but meh.] I'm glad Sakurai made this a kinda even matchup...it always makes me laugh to myself a bit.
DtJ XeroXen
The biggest fraud
My friend Ducky probably has THE most experience in this matchup because he plays me all the time, and I don't feel like posting it all. (Unless some of you guys play decent Marios all the time, and I mean almost all the time)
I'm calling him now, lol.
I'm calling him now, lol.
ducky98
Smash Cadet
Erhm, well besides Mario player's commonsense to use the ax I believe the matchup is even or slightly in Mario's favor. This all depends on the Mario play style though. If the mario is defensive it is quite hard to approach this is especially true on bf. Now people may think this is bad for Mario to take bowser to bf, but that is only if the mario goes on to platforms. If he stays underneath them it is near impossible from my experince to approach wiiithout taking a oss up b or a fireball or two. As i said though it is in Mario's favor if he is defensive. This is because oss up-b is hard to deal with. Now from what i could tell you can Klaw before up-b hit most of the time, but i could be wrong. Now with bowser if the Mario is offensive you can just oss up b and the sorts, or you could space with tilts , fabs, fairs, and of course fire. Now fire can be risky if the Mario SDI's up to up-b when close. Now the fireballs. You can jab them, but they have to be bouncing really high and have to be hit by the middle of his arm form what i could tell. You can also fair through them. This makes it easier to approach him when mario is in the air. I also found jab to d tilt works really well for koing. On the gimping situation it is kinda hard if we recover from below just enough to get on stage as to prevent hugging. koopa hop really doesnt help other than mindgames from what i could tell since the fireballs fire fast enough to make it extremly hard to dodge with koopa hop. For bowser you have to SPACE SPACE SPACE if you hope to win. For mario all you need is an axe. ( I am a bowser main despite the peach picture which i forget how to change.)
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
why do the mario boards always forget that they can get gimped too? bowser also has gimps and the grab release combos
DtJ XeroXen
The biggest fraud
We realize we can get gimped, that's commonplace in ALL our matchups.
We have found suitable ways to recover, as well, like Up-Bing before you hit us with the Fair (providing we're closish to the ledge, you know.)
However, ways that Bowser gets around gimping is a different story with the Mario matchup, with the cape, super-quick aerials, and fireballs. Just because of the cape mostly, he can't use his Up-B near as freely as usual, or risk being gimped.
I think we all realize Mario can be gimped, it's just not too big of a deciding factor, unlike our gimps on you, plus, I'm quite sure we can cape Fair attempts, and then make it back to the stage with a Up-B.
We have found suitable ways to recover, as well, like Up-Bing before you hit us with the Fair (providing we're closish to the ledge, you know.)
However, ways that Bowser gets around gimping is a different story with the Mario matchup, with the cape, super-quick aerials, and fireballs. Just because of the cape mostly, he can't use his Up-B near as freely as usual, or risk being gimped.
I think we all realize Mario can be gimped, it's just not too big of a deciding factor, unlike our gimps on you, plus, I'm quite sure we can cape Fair attempts, and then make it back to the stage with a Up-B.
MrEh
Smash Hero
There just isn't much to say. lol
Just don't get gimped.
Just don't get gimped.
Mario just has some of the safest gimping options, lol.
We're aware that we can be gimped, but Bowser has more to risk going offstage than Mario ever does.
I felt so proud when I caped MrEh a few weeks back. But then again... that was wi-fi.
We're aware that we can be gimped, but Bowser has more to risk going offstage than Mario ever does.
I felt so proud when I caped MrEh a few weeks back. But then again... that was wi-fi.
Inferno3044
Smash Master
First, chances are Mario will play defensively. Who would rush up to a giant, super strong turtle that outranges you by far? Mario would probably be approached and probably get hit by at least one fireball. Also, We could jump above the fire if we predict it. The idea of "gtfo the stage then do stuff to gimp" could work and kill them at very low percents in relativity to Bowser. Im pretty sure Mario beats him in the air due to fast attacks and able to juggle him very easily. Bowser definitely wins on the ground due to stronger attacks that outrange us, especially f-tilt. I don't think you would save to save a certain move to kill him since your smashes and maybe some of your tilts (not sure if true or not) will kill him. On the downside for Mario, chances are he will use f smash to kill you so you are pretty sure what to kill you with. As ducky said, SPACE SPACE SPACE is the key for bowser. Mario will have to be defensive until you come within his range and thats when he will be aggressive. Also unfortunately, they didn't give Mario the axe which Bowser leaves on the edge of the bridge.
I was thinking 60:40 Mario, but then I learned about what Bowser can do. I'll go with 55:45 Mario arguable for 50:50 or 50:50 arguable for 55:45 Mario
Edit: Bowser is one of those characters that can abuse platforms due to his large body and a good enough range to do a usash below a platform and hit. If you really know how toabuse the platforms, take him to a place with platforms like BF or lylat. If you are bad on a stage with platforms, it could be a problem because Mario would probably do better on a flat terrain than bowser in this matchup. Even then, Mario can use platforms to his advantage pretty well
DtJ XeroXen
The biggest fraud
Inferno, some Marios have no patience and fail at playing the defense game.
He only knows about the flaws of Mario's offense game because I get bored sometimes.
But yeah, put yourself under a platform(if on battlefield or a similar stage), and then go to town fireball camping, and then use your multitude of OoS options to punish whatever is coming. Like OoS Uair, Bair, or SJP if he tries to approach from the air, keep the ground covered with fireballs. (Waits for a bowser to say "But we can powershield them!")
He only knows about the flaws of Mario's offense game because I get bored sometimes.
But yeah, put yourself under a platform(if on battlefield or a similar stage), and then go to town fireball camping, and then use your multitude of OoS options to punish whatever is coming. Like OoS Uair, Bair, or SJP if he tries to approach from the air, keep the ground covered with fireballs. (Waits for a bowser to say "But we can powershield them!")
Phiddlesticks
Smash Lord
You mean Bowser can't powershield them?
DtJ XeroXen
The biggest fraud
He can, every character can.
It's just that powershielding alone won't help him, we can take advantage of that time in the shield(we just have to watch out for the Up-B) It's the same thing in every matchup. (Someone ALWAYS ends up saying it)
It's just that powershielding alone won't help him, we can take advantage of that time in the shield(we just have to watch out for the Up-B) It's the same thing in every matchup. (Someone ALWAYS ends up saying it)
.....
Mario has one of the worst recoveries in the game. If ANYBODY hits him after his double jump, he's screwed. This goes without saying. We're talking about matchup specifics.
This matchup is 50:50. Bowser has a few guaranteed kills from grabs, and racks up damage ridiculously fast. We're also not killing him very early. That alone eliminates our advantage.
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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Really? Mario's recovery is quite fine. It's just average, but usually as long as you have good reactions and do not do anything stupid with your midair jump, there IS an option to counter your opponent's edgeguarding whether it is cape stalling, Up-air, Fireballs, or edgecamping. The same cannot be said for a character like Bowser.
I think this matchup is even. Or very slightly in Mario's favor. More importantly however, the advantage in this matchup depends on the stage. Bowser has the advantage on BF where he's harder to juggle, approach, gimp, and in general benefits from the platforms more than Mario. On FD however, the advantage is pretty much reversed. Bowser loses almost all of his advantages on that stage and becomes easily controlled, gimped, and punished.
In general, I feel most of Bowser's strengths mostly get emphasized best on BF vs Mario, and that there aren't as many stages that have as favorable of platform layouts for Bowser to fully abuse his advantages against Mario, and Mario is overall better at camping him and keeping him in a tough position without the multiple platforms of BF available to save Bowser.
Inferno3044
Smash Master
Makes sense. I just want something to add because it hasn't been discussed yet. Everybody knows that Mario can gimp with cape and FLUDD, thats obvious. What some people forget to think about about gimping is how good Mario's bair is in gimping. Its knockback is mainly horizontal, very fast, long range for compared to some of Mario's other moves, and is a very good offstage tool. This can send Bowser off stage more end in a gimp. Also remember that Bowser is a very big target and he can't dodge things like someone like Kirby can (just picking a random small character.) It's easy to get hit by dair for more damage than other characters
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
some of you yeah, but then you get this guy
and there are much more like him
B!squick
Smash Master
FAIL!
Read my MORE POWER! guide, it has all you need to know about fast Bowser is.
I'm about ready to make a thread that goes indepth into how "slow" Bowser is. =_=
lolwut? That didn't make any sense. Your entire reasoning for Bowser not being slow is that he has more range.
That doesn't keep him from being slow. That just means he's slow...but has alot of range. Let me explain what a fast character is, then you can reverse engineer my post and get the gist of what constitutes slow.
Mario has VERY few attacks that have punishable lag. Aside from his Fair, his slowest aerial is 6 frames. They're fast enough that they actually link into each other between the little hit stun each causes and the low ending lag of each of the moves; some of which actually combo into themselves. He's fast enough in running and aerial speed that he can chase well and has a few quick killers like his 9 frame Usmash and 5 frame Dsmash. Compared to Mario, ALL of Bowser's aerials have insane startup, insane wind-down, and are generally crawling. Compared to Bowser, Mario's Fsmash is pretty fast while, compared to the rest of his moveset, Mario's Fsmash is ridiculously SLOW.
Your comment about Sonic made me lol for a few reasons. Sonic has fast running speed. Yoshi has fast aerial speed. Unless your running speed and aerial speed stop you from following up attacks or hinder you in some way, they mean VERY little. DK, for example, runs and walks faster than Mario. Is he faster than Mario overall?
TL;DR
Mario's fast. Bowser is rangy. One can make up for the other's shortcomings, but it doesn't REPLACE that negative trait.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Bowser's Jab and FAir eats the fireball.
~
He has average dashing speed.
He has the 8th best horizontal aerial movement (better than Meta Knight, would you believe that).
If you just use Smashes, Fire, Bowser Bomb or DAir and BAir with Bowser, of course you will think he is slow. Though, his Jab, Tilts, FAir, Side B and UpB are extremely fast. UpB even has invincibility frames. All of his moves are pretty much comparable with the speed of Snake's, and do you think that Snake's tilts are slow?
~
We're just tired of having to post the same things over and over again. Over and over and over. With every matchup we discuss we have to post it, because everyone thinks Bowser is slow. Granted, he isn't particularly FAST, but:
He has average dashing speed.
He has the 8th best horizontal aerial movement (better than Meta Knight, would you believe that).
If you just use Smashes, Fire, Bowser Bomb or DAir and BAir with Bowser, of course you will think he is slow. Though, his Jab, Tilts, FAir, Side B and UpB are extremely fast. UpB even has invincibility frames. All of his moves are pretty much comparable with the speed of Snake's, and do you think that Snake's tilts are slow?
MrEh
Smash Hero
50-50
I've never cared about the specifics.
I've never cared about the specifics.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Yes I agree. 50:50.
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
ike is slow
DK's tilts and jab are all in the 4-7 frame range, which is decently fast, he also moves 7th fastest on the ground and I think he's top 5 in the air
Snake isn't slow so much as laggy on certain attacks, he can move quick and his jabs and tilts all come out fast enough
bowser isn't slow attack wise if he's being played right, sideb, jab and upb all come out frame 5-6 and either have range or invincibility to help them out, his smashes are slow, but his tilts are about the speed of smashes and are as strong as some characters smashes. fair and bair both come out pretty quick too, though bair has some nasty lag. bowser does move somewhat slow, in the air, sideb helps but it's still slow, on the ground I think he has a decent dash speed but he walks really slow.
the problem with slow is that it can mean a lot of things, sonic's ko moves are all really slow, does that make him slow? mk is incredibly slow in the air, does that make him slow? lucarios ground attacks all come out really slow, does that make him slow? dk and bowser have the slow stigma because they're big, and bowser has slow smashes, but they're range on their quicker attacks allow them to keep pace with most characters
the only characters that are slow in almost every way (excluding maybe jabs/grabs) are ike and ganon
Okay, let me try a different approach.
The fastest character in the game is probably, overall, MK, Marth, Fox, ZSS or someone like Squirtle. These characters are insanely fast in attackspeed and above average in movement. Mario isn't quite here, but pretty close.
In the middle you find characters like Pit, ROB, Link, Zelda, and other characters that may have slow movement speed but fast attacks or vice versa.
At the bottom of the spectrum, you'll find the slow characters. Ike, D3, Bowser, Snake, etc. These characters are slow because they have low movement speed and are generally slow attackers. Every character in this game has fast attacks. Bowser is no exception. Do some of his aerials autocancel/have low lag? No. Does he have fast smashes? no. Does he MOVE fast? nope. Therefore, he's slow. If I'm fighting you with Squirtle, I'm going to use my speed to get around your enormous range and power because you cannot keep up.
Admittedly, this list was a bit thrown together before you quote me on it, but it illustrates my point. Maybe the reason you have to repeat yourself about Bowser not being slow to people who're OBVIOUSLY mislead is...maybe Bowser actually IS slow. Powerful, ridiculous defensively, amazing range, but slow as hell.
Edit: lmao, I give up. Obviously Bowser, Ganon, and DK are speedy characters. It all makes sense. Thank you.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Yes, they do. Check out NAir autocancelling or FAir.
That I give you. His Smashes are slow, but his tilts are incredibly quick and all can kill as well.
His movement speed is average and his horizontal aerial mobility is 8th best which means there are 31 characters that move SLOWER in the air than Bowser. What is so hard to understand with that?
Who spoke about Ganon? We were talking about DK and Bowser at this very moment, and those two characters are NOT SLOW. They have some slow attacks but guess what: So has even Zero Suit Samus. So has Lucario. So has Sonic. So has Kirby. Pikachu, Luigi, Game and Watch - characters who are considered being rather speedy ALL have slow attacks too. It's only because Bowser is big and was slow in Melee that people think he's slow. Seriously, he IS NOT.
He is not a "speedy character", but he is NOT SLOW.
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167952
bowser and dk are actually much quicker in the air then most characters
they also move faster than most characters on the ground (dk's dash is 7th and bowsers is like 8-9th fastest i think, not 100% on bowser)
the characters get the slow stigma from new players who pick them up and rely mainly on smashes and specials, in which case they are slow, the characters have slow smashes, but what significance does that have if they rely on tilts (or jab in bowsers case) which are just as fast as the "fast" characters attacks? mk's ftilt/dtilt are both frame 3, dk's jab is frame 4, bowsers jab is frame 5, 1-2 frames is not much of a difference (squirtles jab is 2 frames quicker than mk's tilts, virtually no different though).
Some of the characters you put in the middle are actually slower than some of the characters you put at the bottom. In attacks and movement speed.
bowser is quick movement wise, and mid speed attack wise, he doesn't have the two frame jab most characters pack, but the jab is rarely used for most characters (a few exceptions like falco I guess), and most characters pokes are the same speed as bowsers, bowsers 5 frame jab has the priority and range of most peoples 5 frame forward tilts
bowser and dk are actually much quicker in the air then most characters
they also move faster than most characters on the ground (dk's dash is 7th and bowsers is like 8-9th fastest i think, not 100% on bowser)
the characters get the slow stigma from new players who pick them up and rely mainly on smashes and specials, in which case they are slow, the characters have slow smashes, but what significance does that have if they rely on tilts (or jab in bowsers case) which are just as fast as the "fast" characters attacks? mk's ftilt/dtilt are both frame 3, dk's jab is frame 4, bowsers jab is frame 5, 1-2 frames is not much of a difference (squirtles jab is 2 frames quicker than mk's tilts, virtually no different though).
Some of the characters you put in the middle are actually slower than some of the characters you put at the bottom. In attacks and movement speed.
bowser is quick movement wise, and mid speed attack wise, he doesn't have the two frame jab most characters pack, but the jab is rarely used for most characters (a few exceptions like falco I guess), and most characters pokes are the same speed as bowsers, bowsers 5 frame jab has the priority and range of most peoples 5 frame forward tilts