ROB OFFICIAL MATCHUP DISCUSSION: Olimar

Syde7 · May 2, 2009

Continuing our trend of 2x matchups per week (only one more week of that probably, and then we'll bump it back down to the normal 1x/weel), we're gonna do some Olimar. That being said....

I would like to have a bit more "order" to the discussions from now on (as it makes it easier on me whenever I try to compile them into synopses). Please post in the following "format" (or at least a reasonable facsimile of)

ROB's Advantages:

ROB's Disadvantages:

Opponent's Advantages:

Opponent's Disadvantages:

What ROB should try to do:

How to do it:

How opponent can stop it:

What Opponent should be trying to do:

How they'll do it:

How ROB can stop it:

Counterpicks (what ROB should pick)
Bans (what ROB should ban 1 via stage strike, 1 via personal ban)
Preferred Neutral (what ROB wants)

Ratio:

This may look lengthy, but- it shouldnt be that hard as the +/- for each character is just more or less a list.

GOGOGOGOGOGO!

Snail · May 2, 2009

ROB has a slight advantage in this matchup. Ftilt beats Olimar's grab because it doesn't have grab armor, your Dsmash is broken and lasers and gyro rival Olimar's camping game. Olimar will try to get ROB above him as much as possible because of the massive range on his Usmash and Uair and ROB's lack of attack options in that position. However, Olimar has a major problem off-stage against ROB. Whistle helps, but ROB's Nair has weird startup lag and his Bair has a long-lasting hitbox that might cause trouble anyway. Basically, ROB needs to startle Olimar by using lasers, gyro, dash attack and tilts, then get him off stage as soon as possible while avoiding anything that might put him above Olimar. Olimar has to stay out of tilt range, avoid lasers and gyro as much as possible and attempt to aim pikmin at ROB's head, trying to force an opening to grab or upsmash then do as much damage as possible while ROB is in a disadvantageous position.

60:40 ROB's favor? I honestly hate this matchup xD As for stages, FD is ROB's preferred neutral in this matchup but Olimar will probably try to ban (@ below, I meant stage strike, not ban. xD Sorry for the confusion) that first. Oli's best neutral against ROB is Battlefield.

CP with Rainbow Cruise (although some Olimars seem to like that stage, I personally don't) or Frigate Orpheon.

stingers · May 2, 2009

Why would Oli ban a neutral neutral instead of a horrible CP like Cruise or Frigate? Lol.

I need help on this matchup bad, so I don't know really what you can do against Olimar. Most people say camp, but that doesn't work too well. You can try to space with ftilts, but you're probably gonna get grabbed. The only thing I've done to any success is just grab -> fthrow -> grab again when they land, cuz Olimar is pretty susceptible to that. That's about one of the only things I can consistently land on any Olimar down here.

IMO, it's 55-45 Oli. But I should probably hear from some people more experienced in this matchup first.

Syde7 · May 2, 2009

From what experience I've had playing Olimars, there are two main styles. The first is the camp+grab+smash and an occasional fire pikmen aerial at higher percents. The second is a more traditional playstyle- but with Olimar's unique twist. A lot aerials with pikmin tosses between them, a slightly above average (below average when compared to Olimar style #1) number of grabs, and little smashes. However, both have the same goal- get underneath ROB.

ROB's Advantages:
+ Heavier
+ Better recovery
+ Impossible for Olimar to gimp, really hard to spike
+ Gyro eats pikmen
+ Ability to gimp
+ F-tilt range beats out almost everything Olimar has on the ground

ROB's Disadvantages:
- Big blind spot below
- Limited approach options
- Harder to shake pikmen due to their attachment points
- laser+gyro not as effective a camping tool as Olimar's pikmen
- relatively slower ledge-hug speed & relatively harder ledgehug overall

Opponent's Advantages:
+ Powerful "from underneath" game (both in terms of getting ROB in the air, and keeping him there)
+ Can easily combo ROB out of a grab at low percents to the tune of 50%+
+ Great defense against ROB's aerial approach options
+ Whistle armor to prevent gimps/offstage KOs
+ Can outcamp ROB on smaller stages

Opponent's Disadvantages:
- Light
- Gimpable
- Whistle armor timing can be thrown off
- Grab can be interrupted

What ROB should try to do:
Get Olimar offstage early, and often. and attempt the gimp Try to minimize the pikmen toss effect by being more aggressive than normal. Try to catch Olimar with a limited number of Pikmen and capitalize.

How to do it:
Throw out a gyro to eat pikmen spam. Avoid getting grabbed at lower percents to 1) keep the damage under control and 2) remain grounded. Keep Olimar at F-tilt's distance. Use walking F-tilts as an approach. Follow up with another F-tilt, D-tilt, Dash Attack, F-smash, etc. Use these to "push" Olimar across the stage & off of it. Do not approach via the air, as Olimar can shut it down via shieldgrabs or smashes. Olimar has a narrow window that he can be attacked through whilst he is on the ground and an opponent is in the air; ROB isn't built with the correct moveset to attack this spot, and Olimar is built with a moveset to defend it better against ROB than almost anyone.

How opponent can stop it:
Olimar can divert your attention as you approach through pikmen spam to neutralize a walking f-tilt approach while taking advantage of some of the laggier moves that you HAVE to use (due to odd Pikmen attachment points) via grabs, purple pikmen tosses, F-smashes. Once off the stage, Olimar can utilize whistle armor to take the gimp attempt and punish with something of his own. Also, he can quickly run up to shield your gyro, SH back and launch more pikmen at you. Any breathing room he manages to get, he will/should be replenishing his supply.

What Opponent should be trying to do:
Attempt to get ROB in the air, and get below him. This is an easy way to rack up lots of damage, and potentially get a KO via U-smash, up+B sweetspot with purple pikmen, or to chase your landing with a grab for a blue pikmen grab-->throw for the KO.

How they'll do it:
Throw lots of pikmen at you while you are approaching while weaving in and out with aerials. They will attempt to bait an out of range f-tilt, so they can land a grab. Especially at lower percents. Look for a D-throw at lower percents which can combo into practically ALL of Olimar's aerials, his U- and F-smash, and another D-throw depending on your reaction. D-tilt can pop you up at middle percents, if the grab game hasn't been effective as Olimar would like. Most of Olimar's damage racking will happen this way; either out of a grab or after a purple pikmen hits, and the occasional D-tilt .

How ROB can stop it:
Be intelligently aggressive. ROB shouldn't worry about the latched pikmen so much that he charges in in an attempt to keep the damage even, as this will result in an easy shieldgrab and basically free 20-30 percent damage. F-air and f-tilt (i think) stops Pikmen in their tracks, but don't become preoccupied with them NOT hitting you, as any good Olimar should be able to know when to sneak in while all this is going on. Be wary of Olimar's D- and F-smash at close range as a "panic attack", and punish with a dash attack or D-tilt.

Preferred Neutral:
FD; it gives ROB ample room to move around and camp, and avoids him getting caught on a platform. If FD gets stricken, I actually prefer lylat, as the tilting stage can be a shield of sorts against pikmen.

Strike/Ban:
BF; Lots of platforms make Olimar happy. However, on the flipside, they can cut down a lot on the pikmen spam.

Luigi's if its legal; pikmen toss+grab+smash paradise, IMO.

No idea about what Olimars like to CP.....

Counterpick:
Frigate; Non-grabbable ledge, platform to camp under, side platforms to camp on
Rainbow; take advantage of lackluster recovery
Japes?; high ceiling negates his U-smash KOs, the water kills all except blue pikmen

Ratio: 52/48 (ROBs favor) lol. jk... prolly about 55/45 ROB.

Excellence · May 2, 2009

Olimar likes to CP stages like Luigi's Mansion, Halberd, Battlefield, Smashville, and Lylat Cruise. Olimar likes to take his opponents to places that have lower ceilings, platforms, and stages that go out closer to the blast zone. As far as R.O.B. approaching with Forward Tilt goes, I'm not too sure how well that works for you guys its never been a problem for me. I've played BO and I just jump over it as R.O.B. approaches, fall on him with NAir, chain into Up Tilt, then Up Air for aerial ****.

R.O.B. should first camp Olimar because most Olimar players know that they can outcamp ROB, especially on more cramped stages. With that, you should know that Olimar will always short hop toss Pikmin at you, which is what you want him to do. Before he touches the ground, you should be trying to launch your Gyro at his feet. That way you put him in a bad spot and limit his options. If he choose to land behind the gyro, he's easier to hit with laser and he can no longer Pivot Grab without being at the ledge. If he choose to jump over the gyro you can always run up and grab him, shoot jump back with laser, or F-Tilt him not that he can't run back and space. Either way, Gyro is good for limiting Olimar's ground movement. Once you've got him corner, get aggressive and stay on him. You best tools are your F-Air and B-Air while he's offstage.

CT Chia · May 2, 2009

I HATE this matchup. I fortunately have the ability to play with a ton of Olimars for practice on the matchup on a regular basis, including AndyG (arguably the best Olimar). It's interesting as if you would ask me/others like 6-9 months ago, it was widely determined that ROB won the matchup. That simply isn't the case anymore...

ROB's Advantages:

Has a quick fthrow and bthrow that can get Olimar far off-stage if they DI wrong.
Lasers and Gyros to hurt Olimar's recovery
WoP Fair
Can set up a wall to make it tough for Olimar to get in for a kill
No "bad" stages

ROB's Disadvantages:

Has a weak spot under hit
Can't deal with Pikmin spam THAT well
Has nothing to directly deal with Olimar's grabs
Ledge camping isn't quite as useful in this matchup as it is in others

Opponent's Advantages:

Can combo ROB from 0-41 (atleast) easily
Can spam the crap out of ROB
Pivot grab
High priority attacks like nair and utilt
Fire pikmin go through ROB's fire attacks
usmash kills early

Opponent's Disadvantages:

Dies earlier than ROB on average
Lack luster recovery
Multiple bad stages

What ROB should try to do:
Grab. While a grab alone won't do much, it helps lead into damage racking uairs, WoP fairs, getting Olimar offstage, uthrow to kill if he's at absurd percents. Camp - even though Olimar can out camp ROB, every percent you get on Olimar is worth more than every percent he gets on you because you live longer than he does. If you're at like 150%+ compared to a low percent Olimar, just sit back and camp. It won't matter if he tacks on another percent as it won't really change. He could kill you with usmash at 150%, so having it kill you at 250% changes nothing. In getting that 100%, if you can just get Olimar to like 60 or 80% from 30%, it's far worth it since you've brought Olimar from near un-killable percents to almost kill percents. If you aren't ready to camp like hell yet and waiting for opportunities to grab, stay away at all costs to avoid Olimar's high priority attacks and pivot grabs.
ROB should do all he can to gimp Olimar and kill at early percents.

How to do it:
To get grabs you have to play smart. You have to completely outplay the Olimar to get this perfectly. You need to read every single airdodge and spot dodge he does and punish for it. This will likely lead to a loss in the first match of a set for you to learn your opponent, but once you learn his pattern, you will have something on him in the subsequent matches. Follow Olimar has he falls to the ground and don't do anything. If he never air dodges, quickly land to a grab or dsmash (dsmash also punishes those who side dodge right when they land and it pops them up a little bit for more setups, or kills at high percents), or once the Olimar airdodges punish him when it's over - uair recommended, or nair to kill.
Similarly, to get the grabs you need to read the side dodges instead of air dodges. Glide tossing into Olimar can severely help get grabs.
To gimp Olimar, wait for the whistle or air dodge and continue to fair. If Olimar is kind of far out there, use your laser or gyro to stop his momentum. If you can time your laser to hit Olimar right after he uses his double jump (so he doesn't go anywhere and it's pretty much wasted) he's done. When Olimar's try to sink low thinking they are safe from being edgeguarded, a quick fast fall drop zone fair will ruin him.

How opponent can stop it:
If you keep too close to Olimar while following waiting to punish you can easily get hit by an aerial such as nair fair or bair, so be careful about that. The opponent needs to learn to never air dodge on his way down because that's when ROB has his opening. When ROB approached on the ground, Olimar can just pivot grab whatever ROB is ready to do if the Olimar predicts his movements (it's not hard). Olimar needs to rely less on dodging, and focus more on the offensive with grabs and camping with overB.

What Opponent should be trying to do:
Olimar should try to rack up damage as fast as possible then kill. Olimar needs to time his whistle armor perfectly and that will help his recovery by a lot. Then of course, Olimar should pivot grab. ROB can't do a single thing about it.

How they'll do it:
Olimar should rack up the damage with overB and skill with usmash. It's really not hard. Getting in for the usmash can sometimes be hard, but just being careful can help. Stealing ROB's gyro can help when spamming since you don't need physical moves to do so.
Olimar should only whistle armor when he knows ROB is going to attack. Remember that you can get a decent jump from upB if you have less Pikmin.
For pivot grabing, just do it. There's nothing smart about this. ROB approaches - just pivot grab.

How ROB can stop it:
ROB can't really stop the spam that well.
ROB can only avoid being killed by usmash by keeping away and camping, but in turn won't be able to be close to Olimar and kill him with grab setups.
ROB can trump over any recovery options Olimar has as described earlier.
ROB can't do a single thing against pivot grabs. Despite what people say, ftilt DOES NOT work. I can guarantee this.

Counterpicks (what ROB should pick)

Rainbow Cruise
Frigate Orpheon
Delfino Plaza
Brinstar (maybe)

Bans (what ROB should ban 1 via stage strike, 1 via personal ban)

Castle Siege (though Olimars almost never choose it, but it helps them not be gimped)
Luigi's Mansion (normally banned at tourneys anyway)
Lylat Cruise

Preferred Neutral (what ROB wants)

FD or BF (It depends on the opponent's style. If you need to camp to win, FD helps. If you need to read your opponent to win BF helps so you can read his platform techs for free fairs and uairs).

Ratio:
It's atleast 60:40 in Olimar's favor. Maybe 65:45 if the Olimar plays well. There is barely anything ROB can do to a perfect playing Olimar.

Syde7 · May 2, 2009

An outstanding post and assessment Chibo. TBH, I see it like that as well, even the ratio (which even though I have a different one listed, I thought my troubles were just mine alone as opposed to how the chars stack up). The F-tilt works for me, but its spotty at best. I just imagined it was something I was doing wrong- so that def opened my eyes.

And, darn. I thought there was something I was missing with getting pivot-grabbed so often, but I guess I'm not.

Thanks ^_^

Dabuz · May 2, 2009

ROB's Advantages:hard to kill
outprioritize olimar with nair
can ftilt out of olimars grab
can use projectiles at close range to ruin olis pivot grab game
fair wop gimp
better air game

ROB's Disadvantages:easy to be outcamped
trouble killing good olis
easy to combo
screwed when above oli
outranged
big target

Opponent's Advantages:out camps
great combo ability
can wac all of robs killing moves(except upthrow)
has a counter for everything
better spacing ability
small target
better ground game

Opponent's Disadvantages:can be gimped if not careful
can be ftilted out of grab
outprioritized
can't pivot grab rob when he uses projectiles
few reliable kill moves against rob

What ROB should try to do: use projectiles and ftilt to stop grab attempt oli makes, especially at low percents, approach and pressure with a mix of bair/fair->dsmash/grab approaches, use gyro to knock oli into air and grabbing/dmshashing as he lands on ground, use shorthop nair to outprioritize olis smashes, don't use laggy moves, draw out wac attempts offstage and punish, use a mix of dash attacks, grabs, and shorthop fairs, use projectiles to either stop olis grabs(especcially pivots) and hit oli as he about to touch ground, edgegaurd, bair can only be WACED if it is timed perfectly by the oli

How to do it:/\/\/\/\/\/\

How opponent can stop it:pivot grabs stop most air approaches, up-s can as well, camp like crazy and abuse purple pikmin side b, mix up grabs, shield grabs, and shorthop nair, fair, WAC all of robs killing moves, aerials, and wop,spotdodge->???? rob's grabs and dsmashes, use fsmash as a spacing moves, jab/tilt rob at point blank range, upsmash/throws for killing, oli should use all the tricks of recovery to fullest

What Opponent should be trying to do:/\/\/\/\/\/\

How they'll do it:/\/\/\/\/\/\

How ROB can stop it:/\/\/\/\/\/\
Counterpicks: rc, japes, norfair
Bans ban: luigi mansion, stage strike: FD

ratio:60-40 olis advantage or 55-45, oli just needs to camp and grab in this matchup to rack up good damage and can play really good defnse against rob but rob has lots of ways to stop grabs and great mixup on offense against oli

and yes, im too lazy to fill in each seperate category so i just filled them all in with like 2 categories
Preferred Neutral (what ROB wants)

TEECO · May 2, 2009

I hate this matchup because I have a really hard time telling what Olimar is doing. Didn't know Ftilt beats his grab, thats some good information because they grab helplessly and follow up pretty well after a throw.

When you get stuck with a pikmin, is it best to RID of them, or to stay focused on the fight?

Sudai · May 2, 2009

Getting rid of the pikmin/fighting is situational. You have to look at where both characters and determine whether or not you can get the pikmin off of you without the Olimar being able to get to you while you do so. Basically cross stage = get rid of it. Mid-range from eachother = ignore unless you can retreat fast enough to avoid punishment. Oh, and if it's a white, get that effer off.

TEECO · May 3, 2009

Gotcha, and Deffinatley. I have no idea exactly how much damage that filthy parasite can do if its on you for the whole time but I know it does a lot.

Maybe we should post the effects of the pikmin and what they're used for.

Sudai · May 3, 2009

Alternately, I'll post the link to the Olimar thread that has -everything- you'd want to know about pikmin.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=185696

TEECO · May 3, 2009

That'll save up some work.. lol

Excellent.

Mr.E · May 3, 2009

Chibo, Chibo, Chibo...

Why would you think it difficult to grab someone out of an air dodge? You grab them during landing lag just as you would a poorly spaced aerial, it's E-Z.

Alright, getting in on Olimar isn't that easy but ROB is hardly helpless. Shooting a Gyro under Olimar, or full hopping and shooting it over the Pikmin, while he SH Pikmin Toss spams is very effective at limiting his space or knocking him away so ROB can gain ground. Likewise, shooting a projectile punishes him for attempting a pivot grab as ROB nears. Olimar wins a flat-out spamfest but ROB's projectiles are still very effective at keeping him off-balance, such that ROB can push him to the edges of the stage (and subsequently off). Olimar eventually runs out of stage and has no real means to get behind people once they bully him to the edge unlike, say, Falco. ;/

How do I always end up comparing everybody to Falco? Who knows. Probably because he's the toughest character for ROB to approach. Olimar is the best camper but he is not as difficult to approach, as Pikmin Toss doesn't stun and he's not very fast (for running away). Now, Falco is a roughly even match-up (and highly stage-dependent). Olimar is another one of those ultra-campy *******s who ROB cannot force to approach. Yet, Olimar is less difficult to approach than Falco. He somehow even manages to be even easier to edgeguard. "At least" 40:60 Olimar's advantage? I don't buy that at all. But hey, them's opinions for ya, and mine is the opposite.

Mr.E · May 3, 2009

As far as stages are concerned: I'm just going to go through the latest SBR rules for the stages, no "Luigi's Mansion is always banned olol" johns.

First off, I ask why nobody has mentioned banning Norfair against Olimar. (Green text guy even recommends it as a CP, although maybe he meant against ROB... ?) Olimar is absolutely ungimpable there, not to mention he'll eat ROB's blind spot for breakfast. If Norfair is in the stage list to begin with, you'd have to be dumb not to use your ban on it.

But hey, in case that's banned in the first place, what other stages help out his piss-poor recovery? These are the stages we should most want to ban. Chibo mentioned Castle Siege. Second phase walk-off, sure. Perhaps Olimar players don't like to CP it because the first phase is extremely small, making it very hard to camp there. *shrug* That's reason enough to leave it alone if you ask me.

Brinstar's acid can save him but there's nothing else with it, so no big deal.

Most of Delfino's transformations are walk-offs or have water, both of which will save Olimar from being gimped, nevermind that water quickly drowns non-blue Pikmin. That doesn't sound like something I want to allow Olimar. In fact, it even has a low ceiling at some points. Eww.

You can't really gimp people on Jungle Japes but the river will kill his Pikmin whenever you dump him in there and the high ceiling helps survive USmash. I don't think there's any worry about Olimar taking ROB here.

Pirate Ship is water all around. Olimar can't do anything out in the water anyway and it kills his Pikmin. ROB can do many things out there and Olimar would be a fool to chase him out there. Potential CP for ROB, surely no danger of Olimar picking it himself.

Distant Planet has a walk-off on the left boundary. The action tends to center around the campy spot under the main platform where the central ledge is, so good luck even getting Olimar on the right side of the stage to attempt gimping him there.

"Pipes" is a walk-off on the right side and the left side is so short that people die before the opportunity to edgeguard arises. Kills come primarily off the top due to the bowl shope. This is probably a pretty good Olimar CP, luckily it's almost never allowed.

PS2 also has the wind transformation but I think that's about it. Delfino certainly sounds like the worst Olimar can do. One might also want to ban a heavily-platformed stage... which pretty much means Battlefield. Or Lylat, but I'm not sure why to ban Lylat before Battlefield. (Funny story, the "gay ledges" there actually screwed me over today as ROB, for the first time ever.) Luigi's Mansion, seriously? Maybe it's just because I'm extremely comfortable on that stage but I don't see any reason to ban it other than personal taste. (I, being super-used to ****** on it, love Mansion.) The only particular worry there is that Olimar can "pillar" you on the ceiling 2-3 times in a row with his USmash but... ROB is ROB and is amazing on Mansion in general. It also has a higher ceiling than normal, which is a pretty big deal.

Counterpicks for ROB are extremely obvious are shouldn't need much discussion. You guys already mentioned the best ones anyway. (RC, Japes, Orpheon.) It's not worth mentioning PTAD since it's so rarely allowed and, if it was, an Olimar player would be foolish not to ban it anyway.

CT Chia · May 3, 2009

It's hard to grab Olimar while falling because he doesn't always have to just fall or air dodge. If the Olimar knows you are going for the grab, then he could attack with, specifically with nair into utilt which heavily punishes ROB's shield (if you were going for a shield grab. if you werent shielding then you could be attacked by that or any aerial).

Also, Norfair isn't bad for ROB in the matchup. If anything, it helps ROB more. Olimar has a terrible time camping you there due to the size and platform structure, and you have an easy time to get under Olimar which is awesome for utilt, usmash, nair, uair, etc.

Also I figured I should mention utilt is great for getting pikmin off you if you have time to use it. If I need to approach while getting them off me, nair or fair does the trick.

I still don't know why people say ftilt beats grab lol. Atleast I know 100% that it doesn't beat pivot grab, but why would an Olimar ever use regular grab unless it's from shield or if you're landing. If your approaching via ground an Olimar should always try to pivot grab it, not regular.

stingers · May 3, 2009

I just played AndyG.

Lol Online, but I mean, I just played him. We have a green dot, stfu <.<

Anyway he 1 stocked me both times which makes sense to me cuz he's just better then me, but there were some things I did that seemed to work pretty well against him:

- Always have a gyro on hand or on stage, get it near the Oli as much as you can.
- Getting a grab should always lead to another grab on Oli until you get them offstage. Always.
- Retreating sh lasers are your friends
- Rising Fairs are even better friends

In a nutshell, that is about all I did against AndyG that I didn't get punished for.

And Chibo, red pikmin won't come off with an nair, plus you're staling it making it even more difficult to kill Oli then it should be. Just use an fair.

lord karn · May 3, 2009

ROB's Advantages:

- Gyro is extremely helpful in this matchup
- Fair *****, both as an attack and because it almost always knocks off all pikmin.
- Ftilt is really useful because it actually rivals Olimar's range.
- Pressures really well if you actually get on top of him

ROB's Disadvantages:

- Can't safely close
- Has to play somewhat aggressive
- ROB's blindspot is especially annoying in this matchup because Olimar ***** people above him.

Opponent's Advantages:

- High damage output
- Range

Opponent's Disadvantages:

- Recovery
- Hard to regain position once he loses it

What ROB should try to do:

What I usually do is I run towards Olimar and the opposing player usually has to decide between a few options. He can fsmash or grab, or he can run backwards and throw pikmin. If I see the animation for the grab/fsmash starting, I short hop backwards with a fair. The fair is ensures that he doesn't follow up with an aerial and it should also knock the pikmin away if he fsmashes. Immediately after the fair, I keep going backwards and shoot a gyro. The gyro makes it so Olimar cannot chase you backwards and pursue you. The time it takes for him to run forward and powershield the gyro is enough for you to react. If the Olimar does not fsmash/grab he can roll backwards, jump back and throw pikmin, or do a variety of other defensive options. In this situation, I just continue running forward (if grabs or fsmashes at any point, I do the gyro thing). Essentially, you must stay on top of Olimar and try to punish and predict him for whatever defensive option he chooses. If you get the approach off, you should probably grab him and throw him off the level and attempt to edgeguard. Fair if they are low off the edge, try to follow their whistle armor with a bair if they recover high. You want Olimar off the stage because you can usually always get some damage on him when he gets off the stage, even though you probably won't kill him unless you completely outplay him.

How opponent can stop it:

Olimar will be trying to retreat and punish you for chasing him. I'm not so sure on what to do about reverse grabs. Laser or gyro work pretty well, I think.

What Opponent should be trying to do:

Olimar should be camping. I think that Olimar can out camp ROB, but maybe that's just because I suck at camping. Olimar wants to run away and punish you with grabs for chasing him. Olimar can rack up damage way more effectively against ROB on the stage.

How ROB can stop it:

Projectiles punish missed grab attempts really well. Ftilt can too if you were barely out of range to be grabbed. ROB really needs to keep the pressure on in this matchup, because he is really effective at keeping Olimar in a bad position once he gets the initial approach off.

Counterpicks (what ROB should pick): Frigate Orpheon, Rainbow Cruise,
Bans (what ROB should ban 1 via stage strike, 1 via personal ban): I usually ban FD vs Olimar.
Preferred Neutral (what ROB wants): Battlefield

Ratio: I think ROB has an advantage in the matchup. Either 55-45 or 60-40.

I'm posting this because stingers requested it. I room with NC-Echo, who mains Olimar and is one of the best players in NC. I don't really play ROB anymore, but I think I know this matchup pretty well, unless my roomate just isn't doing something right.

Mr.E · May 3, 2009

I wonder if hitting an immune Pikmin actually makes an attack more stale or not. Not that difficult to even test but I'm pooped after tonight myself.

ChiboSempai said:
It's hard to grab Olimar while falling because he doesn't always have to just fall or air dodge. If the Olimar knows you are going for the grab, then he could attack with, specifically with nair into utilt which heavily punishes ROB's shield (if you were going for a shield grab. if you werent shielding then you could be attacked by that or any aerial).

Well, if you don't have your shield up, you're just going to get smacked in the head with FAir. :rolleyes:

Anyway, Olimar doesn't exactly have stop-on-a-dime air control and you can still grab him out of his NAir as well. It's just tougher to do than most aerials, kinda like grabbing Fox's DAir or any aerial that activates an additional hitbox while landing.

Also, Norfair isn't bad for ROB in the matchup. If anything, it helps ROB more. Olimar has a terrible time camping you there due to the size and platform structure, and you have an easy time to get under Olimar which is awesome for utilt, usmash, nair, uair, etc.

Well, it works both ways -- Olimar has an easy time getting under ROB and destroying him in his blind spot. It's just like utilizing platforms. ROB uses platforms well, the problem is that it usually opens him up to worse things than he can do in return. Even so, if it's your preference to play in this manner, you still shouldn't want to fight Olimar on Norfair. Battlefield, Lylat, Yoshi's offer big platform play without the "lol three ledges can't gimp garbage recovery" factor.

UTilt is great in general and people should use it more.

stingers · May 3, 2009

Hitting any pikmin with any attack will stale it once.

Mr.E · May 3, 2009

This is patently untrue. Hitting a pikmin with a fully stale attack will not magically add a 10th attack to the stale moves queue.

*cough*

Deadweight · May 3, 2009

ROB's Advantages: Ability to gimp, camp. Survivability

ROB's Disadvantages: Can be comboed reallll easy like. Huge target for pikmin throw.

Opponent's Advantages: Can camp as hard...if not harder than rob

Opponent's Disadvantages: Can be gimped at 0 Tether recoveries make it too easy.

What ROB should try to do: get olimar off the stage and grab the ledge. Avoid fattie pikminthrows
How to do it: Approach with glidetoss-grab and b-throw him into a wall of fairs

How opponent can stop it: Camp the middle of the stage. not go near the ledge.

What Opponent should be trying to do: grab combos from 0-60 then pikmin throw camp to 100+ then up smash or b-throw.

How they'll do it: ^^^^

How ROB can stop it: put constant pressure on olimar. Leave a charged gyro spining on the floor to kill any pikmin trying to approach u

Counterpicks (what ROB should pick) Delfino (Water kills 4/5s of his pikmin) orfeon. (Camp until stage flips then gimp)
Bans (what ROB should ban 1 via stage strike, 1 via personal ban) Mansion
Preferred Neutral (what ROB wants) Smashville/lylat/yoshis

Ratio:55-45 robs favor

Snail · May 4, 2009

Wait, people think it's in Oli's advantage now? I honestly don't see how. ><Maybe I'm just doing it wrong though.

@ post below my first post, when I said "ban FD" I meant stage strike, not the actual ban. 3:

Syde7 · May 5, 2009

Snail said:
Wait, people think it's in Oli's advantage now? I honestly don't see how. ><Maybe I'm just doing it wrong though.

@ post below my first post, when I said "ban FD" I meant stage strike, not the actual ban. 3:

IMO, the ONLY thing ROB has against Olimar in the matchup in terms of "obvious, abuseable, clear" advantages- is a better recovery and the ability to gimp. Both of these can be neutralized through the recovery methods I'll mention below.

At lower levels of play where someone doesn't know how to whistle armor, or are confident enough to use pikmen throws or aerials to defend against edgeguarding/gimp attempts (and using WA again to call them back), or know that having NO pikmen is better than one pikmen for recovery, or don't have a mastery of ordering their pikmin to maximize the effectiveness of what they are about to do-- its HUGELY in ROBs favor- for the simple factor that that sort of Olimar is laughably easy to gimp. Not so if the Olimar player has a mastery of these techniques.

Olimar can camp on a superior level than ROB on any stage that isn't long (such as FD) due to pikmen speed, damage they deal, the trouble the camping causes in terms of ruining approached (purple pikmen, others to get the ROB unfocused).

Olimar and ROB have roughly equal KO potential. ROB will have either an F-smash, Laser snipe, N- or B-air. Many of these will be decayed, leaving him with 1-2 reliable kill moves at any time. Olimar can use a fresh fire pikmen aerial (that will eat through our N- and B-airs), Bluye pikmen throw, Fresh U-smash, and a purple pikmen tipped up+B.

Olimar and ROB are roughly equal in range. ROB's F- and D-tilt work well, as does the dash attack (DA to finish off a tilt set up if you decide to save your F-smash). Olimar has his smashes, that can cover almost the entirety of the ground/air beside/above him. The grab game is vastly superior due to range as well.

The two are equal in the air, depending on the situation. With a red Pikmen, Olimar wins as it beats out our fire based aerials (N- and B- air). Whistle armor beats F-, N-, B-air. Olimar's N- air has too much priority to fux with, and U-air ***** ROB. Throwing pikment between aerials is a good way to set up for more (purple pikmen) or tack on even more damage.

Basically, ROB has ONE narrow window that he can approach/attack Olimar from, and that angle puts ROB at a disadvantage ANYWAY, and even moreso considering the fact Olimar is more competent at protecting/attacking from that small window/angle than most characters.

Pivot grabbing covers Olimar in the instance that he doesn't defend that small area well, and ROB doesn't attack it well. He can run away, pivot grab, and throw out D-throw combos that will take rob from 0-50% or so (or more if he sneaks in a pikmen toss or two during it), setting up a wall of aerials/pikmen (especially purples)

The fact that they are equal in KO potential, ROB has to rely on gimps to beat Olimar, and Olimar DOES have the tools to make getting gimps WAAAAY harder than it theoretically should be- should alone make it worthy of at least a 50/50.

L_Cancel · May 5, 2009

In the area of camping/projectiles Olimar can slightly outperform ROB. Due to the near lagless pikmin toss, Olimar can be incredibly mobile with the pikmin toss, and use this mobility to dodge ROB's laser and gyro. In terms of hardcore camping, if Olimar gets control of ROB's gyro, he can hold it, and run and pikmin toss for awhile, and throw it back once an opening appears. Also, his ability to rack up damage with his projectile is just faster than that of ROB's.

Olimar is also excellent at forcing ROB into his blind spot, and juggling him. Nair can often times shield poke and can lead into an up-smash, and if the shield didn't get poked, nair can lead into a grab if the ROB doesn't react fast enough, or into a utilt to tear up the shield some more. Once in the air, Olimar can uair and nair to continue to juggle ROB with aerials. Or the Olimar can wait for the ROB to have to land and shield grab or pivot grab him.

ROB does have his own benefits in this matchup however. The speed of ROB's jab and tilts allow him to break Olimar's grab if done at the same time of the grab. The only way for the Olimar to avoid this, is by waiting for ROB to committ to an attack or action and grab, shield grab, or pivot grab accordingly.

ROB can also do a nice job of juggling Oli. Oli's slow falling speed makes him an easy target for aerials, or ROB can easily get under him and keep him in the air with things like utilt or d-smash (if used too often, the Olimar will start to DI out of it).

ROB's offstage game also exceeds that of Olimar, as mentioned many times in this thread. Despite this, an experienced Olimar still has numerous tactics to get back to the edge. Purple pikmin, double jump aerial, the small hop given by the up-b, whistle super armor, etc. Despite this, even the best of Olimars will still have trouble recovering against ROB, giving ROB potential to get stocks off at 0-30% once in awhile, which is something Olimar will almost never be able to do to ROB.

All in all, at high levels of play the match is near even in my opinion, but slightly in Olimar's advantage. So I'd say 55/45 Olimar's favor.

Fino · May 5, 2009

Ummm.... I'd say 55:45-60:40 olimar.
Rob really doesn't have much against him. He's a big target and a combo / juggle *****.

~Fino

Syde7 · May 7, 2009

So, with only a few days left.... we need to pin a ratio on this. Its gone as far as 60/40 (ROB) to 40/60 (Olimar) with most of the responses leaning to the 55/45, 60/40 Olimar's favor.

Dotcom · Aug 19, 2009

But.. I disagree..

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