Alright, this sucks

Zeallyx · May 2, 2009

I was playing some IRL falcon ditto's with a friend of mine, and then this happened:

We were both in the air, and he earial raptor boosted me, and when I got hit and started getting spiked, I immediatly Uaired out of reflex, and I hit him with the Uair, and I figure the Uair also canceled some downwards momentum.

I havent looked into this, and I hope this is a one time thing (as in, requires a certain percent, requires precise timing etc.).

Face124 · May 2, 2009

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
I was playing some IRL falcon ditto's with a friend of mine, and then this happened:

We were both in the air, and he earial raptor boosted me, and when I got hit and started getting spiked, I immediatly Uaired out of reflex, and I hit him with the Uair, and I figure the Uair also canceled some downwards momentum.

I havent looked into this, and I hope this is a one time thing (as in, requires a certain percent, requires precise timing etc.).

Is it just a really fast meteor cancel? Like, at lower percents a lot of spikes have really low hitstun (They're called meteor smashes if they do) and you can get out of them easy, but later at like 50% your probably dead.

Lionman · May 2, 2009

Had you record the replay?

LuLLo · May 2, 2009

Do you remember at which percentage you were?
And also, it works both ways, since IF this is true and can be done at the right percentages, we can avoid getting spiked. But it's very bad for us if many characters can do this to us.

:034: · May 2, 2009

Face124 said:
Is it just a really fast meteor cancel? Like, at lower percents a lot of spikes have really low hitstun (They're called meteor smashes if they do) and you can get out of them easy, but later at like 50% your probably dead.

Meteor Smash = a 'spike' that can be meteor cancelled
Spike = can't be meteor cancelled

'Spikes' in Brawl technically don't exist, since every one of them can be meteor cancelled. But Meteor Smash sounds kind of weird, so you might as well call it a spike.

I think I know what caused this, though - a spike is a spike because of the angle, not because of speed, knockback or hitstun. Ike's Aether Spike is really weak, but it's still a spike even though it doesn't even send your opponent away very far.

Raptor Boost just doesn't have a lot of hitstun, but most people are too suprised by the spike effect to try something like this. You got spiked but the hitstun was pretty much over... Because that's what Brawl does, sadly. It's the same as with Ganondorf's upB. It also cancelled some momentum because that's what aerials do.

Zeallyx · May 2, 2009

Lionman said:
Had you record the replay?

No man, it didnt seem like a big deal to me at first, but when I started thinking about it, it probably is. But this was after I already clicked away the screen whereI could save the replay of the match in question.

Flying Dutchman said:
Meteor Smash = a 'spike' that can be meteor cancelled
Spike = can't be meteor cancelled

'Spikes' in Brawl technically don't exist, since every one of them can be meteor cancelled. But Meteor Smash sounds kind of weird, so you might as well call it a spike.

I think I know what caused this, though - a spike is a spike because of the angle, not because of speed, knockback or hitstun. Ike's Aether Spike is really weak, but it's still a spike even though it doesn't even send your opponent away very far.

Raptor Boost just doesn't have a lot of hitstun, but most people are too suprised by the spike effect to try something like this. You got spiked but the hitstun was pretty much over... Because that's what Brawl does, sadly. It's the same as with Ganondorf's upB. It also cancelled some momentum because that's what aerials do.

Yes, I understand how it can/couldve happened.
And because this theory (aside from beeing true, probably) is so simple (as in, why didnt we think of this before.) its weird that other character mains havent figured this out yet.
Its kinda out there if you think about it.

LuLLo said:
Do you remember at which percentage you were?
And also, it works both ways, since IF this is true and can be done at the right percentages, we can avoid getting spiked. But it's very bad for us if many characters can do this to us.

I dont remember the percentage. My apologies.
And Its very likely all characters can attack us when we raptor boost spike.

eRonin · May 2, 2009

One thing I'd like to ask, did you hit him with the tip (foot) of the uair or the middle of the hitbox?
My point is, say, characters like Falco have pretty low range on the uair and they're not going to hit you with it anyway, unless they're like on 10%...so you don't really need to worry about it against some characters...

Darxmarth23 · May 2, 2009

Its all hitstun. Hit stun is directly related to knock back. Knock back is directly related to percent. Its in the 6 properties of a good move thread, in tactical discussion. I can give you the link if you want.

What percent were you at? This may answer your question.

LuLLo · May 2, 2009

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
I dont remember the percentage. My apologies.
And Its very likely all characters can attack us when we raptor boost spike.

Well not ALL characters, Bowser and Ike for example can't hit you fast enough (now that I think of hit, maybe they are the only ones..) and Pit, Sonic and DDD for example can't finish with their u-air multihits due to downwards momentum. I'll try some stuff out myself

.

Player-3 · May 2, 2009

how does this suck

its not like side b is good for spiking

Mit · May 2, 2009

Sounds like you had low damage, in which case, your opponent should have never used raptor dash in the air in the first place.

Why? If you didn't uair him immediately, you could've probably falcon punched him instead when he came down. At the very least any smash attack of your choosing, or a knee. Raptor dash is ONLY useful when your opponent has high damage, and you use it to punish moves on the ground, when you're POSITIVE you will connect. Otherwise, get ready to be punished, hard, in exchange for the measily damage you just gave.

t3h n00b · May 3, 2009

Raptor Boost is a pretty weak spike as far as spikes go. If you meteor canceled perfectly (did you happen to use the A button for the uair and jump simultaneously) at a low percent, stuff like that is feasible. There aren't many spikes weaker than midair Raptor Boost.

A2ZOMG · May 3, 2009

Magus had said something about how you can do attacks and air dodges REALLY FAST out of any attack that knocks you over.

I forgot the exact numbers behind it though. What I do remember is that there are three timers for hitstun. One for the air dodge, one for the aerial, and another for everything else. The first two are extremely low set values, while the last one is based on knockback.

Zeallyx · May 3, 2009

alright. As it tunrs out not to be that big of a deal, I'll spread the word to other character boards to inform them of this little fact. As holding back info is ~~more a ganon board thing.~~ gay. So spread the word.

.

just reduce your aerial raptor boost usage percent from 0.99 to 0.00.
Cause you will get punished for aerial raptor boosting (decent/good) opponents who know about this little fact. (which will be the majority after the word is spread.).

Red-Blue · May 3, 2009

magic internet double post, oops

Red-Blue · May 3, 2009

2Knee, are you ENTERTAINTER?!

Zeallyx · May 3, 2009

Red-Blue said:
2Knee, are you ENTERTAINTER?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTC35GvjQbA ?
Guilty as charged.

And if you infract Red-Blue and me for this, please look around the board a little better.
Alot more infraction worthy posts and threads that should be closed.

- Step it up mods

Red-Blue · May 3, 2009

oh snap we callin' you out

Red-Blue · May 3, 2009

Dk1337 said:
My final argument is this: MK, Snake, and to great degree Ike, are the most broken characters in Brawl, and should be banned immediately, and that, apart from those three characters, tiers do not exist.

ban ike
ban ike
ban ike

Player-3 · May 3, 2009

i dont get it

they should infract you along with ~~other posts on the boards~~ all the posts on the boards

silly

Darxmarth23 · May 3, 2009

Lolwut.

Ban marfz

Zeallyx · May 4, 2009

Player-3 said:
i dont get it

they should infract you along with ~~other posts on the boards~~ all the posts on the boards

silly

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
Alot more infraction worthy posts and threads that should be closed.

Alot more posts =/= all posts.

On topic:
Everyon spread the word about the raptor boost spike interception.^_^

t3h n00b · May 4, 2009

This is not specific to Raptor Boost at all. I don't see what you're getting all worked up about. Raptor Boost is a weak spike, and at a low percentage, it has insufficient hitstun to prevent an opponent from hitting Falcon back, but this only applies in a frame perfect or extremely lucky environment, where aerial Raptor Boost is used (and hits o.o) when the opponent has an extremely low amount of damage. If this was done offstage for some reason, they could easily meteor cancel (which is what this is, just attacking as well), and if done onstage, it was a bad idea in the first place. Yes, meteor canceling exists in Brawl, that's all this is -_-

Zeallyx · May 4, 2009

t3h n00b said:
This is not specific to Raptor Boost at all. I don't see what you're getting all worked up about. Raptor Boost is a weak spike, and at a low percentage, it has insufficient hitstun to prevent an opponent from hitting Falcon back, but this only applies in a frame perfect or extremely lucky environment, where aerial Raptor Boost is used (and hits o.o) when the opponent has an extremely low amount of damage. If this was done offstage for some reason, they could easily meteor cancel (which is what this is, just attacking as well), and if done onstage, it was a bad idea in the first place. Yes, meteor canceling exists in Brawl, that's all this is -_-

Who says this was at a low damage percent..
And yes, it is not specific to raptor boost, but it is also present during the raptor boost, which isnt exactly common knowledge.

And if this works at higher percents (like with ganons up b) one will never be able to raptor boost spike anymore.
Not that its often used, but people use it to 'intercept' edgeguarding opponents..
This was never the best option, but people do it, and now, they shouldnt do it at all anymore.
Not even those few attempts.

t3h n00b · May 4, 2009

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
Who says this was at a low damage percent..
And yes, it is not specific to raptor boost, but it is also present during the raptor boost, which isnt exactly common knowledge.

And if this works at higher percents (like with ganons up b) one will never be able to raptor boost spike anymore.
Not that its often used, but people use it to 'intercept' edgeguarding opponents..
This was never the best option, but people do it, and now, they shouldnt do it at all anymore.
Not even those few attempts.

I do, because that's how the game mechanics work. This is not a phenomenon. If you meteor cancel quick enough, you can hit someone out of a weak spike. "This" works at higher percents, it just takes longer due to more hitstun, so you can't hit your opponent, and will be lucky just to recover onstage, as in, how a spike works. People that did it habitually before won't care if it will work less, because it's a bad option anyway. Either way, I think it is kind of weird that you're concluding that Raptor Boost has some fatal flaw where you can get uaired by Falcon out of it, instead of meteor canceling a weak spike.

Zeallyx · May 4, 2009

t3h n00b said:
I do, because that's how the game mechanics work. This is not a phenomenon. If you meteor cancel quick enough, you can hit someone out of a weak spike. "This" works at higher percents, it just takes longer due to more hitstun, so you can't hit your opponent, and will be lucky just to recover onstage, as in, how a spike works. People that did it habitually before won't care if it will work less, because it's a bad option anyway. Either way, I think it is kind of weird that you're concluding that Raptor Boost has some fatal flaw where you can get uaired by Falcon out of it, instead of meteor canceling a weak spike.

ok. here for the last time:
1. this may work at all percents. (immediatly attack falcon).
2. raptor boost is always risky, this can make it too risky at all times.
3. no phenomenon, but it sucks, and I dont care that you know, there are plenty who dont know.
4. I'm not talking about only falcons immediat Uair. but all characters airs with hitboxes above them.
5. can be the same thing as with ganons up b instead of meteor canceling.

t3h n00b · May 4, 2009

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
ok. here for the last time:
1. this may work at all percents. (immediatly attack falcon).

I don't understand though. You uaired someone in a Falcon ditto at an ambiguous damage amount with no replay and you think there may be an inexplicable flaw with the move?

2. raptor boost is always risky, this can make it too risky at all times.

This statement and all those that follow it are predicated on your theory being correct, even though the whole situation is completely explained by meteor canceling. Even if whatever problem you think there is with Raptor Boost is somehow legitimate and fully explored, that doesn't explain why, for a year, people have been getting Raptor Boost spiked just fine if they didn't know what they were doing, so even if there really is a way to prevent it from happening, it is unlikely it will ever be known widely.

3. no phenomenon, but it sucks, and I dont care that you know, there are plenty who dont know.
What is there to know? I'd understand if there was a video and a logical explanation, but everything is logically explained by meteor canceling

4. I'm not talking about only falcons immediat Uair. but all characters airs with hitboxes above them.
I understand, what I am questioning is the plausibility of some way to recover from aerial Raptor Boost that doesn't involve meteor canceling.

5. can be the same thing as with ganons up b instead of meteor canceling.
Maybe. I'm just saying it would be a good idea if you had proof, especially since this sounds exactly like meteor canceling once again lol.

Responses in blue.

Ray_Kalm · May 4, 2009

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
As holding back info is ~~more a ganon board thing.~~ gay.

~~You'll regret you ever said that.~~ Didn't most of Falcon's attacks have low hitstun to begin with?

t3h n00b · May 4, 2009

Ray_Kalm said:
~~You'll regret you ever said that.~~ Didn't most of Falcon's attacks have low hitstun to begin with?

I don't think Falcon's attacks are that much worse than everyone else's in that regard. I guess dair is the only move with real hitstun, but there isn't much in Brawl anyway. I don't get how Falcon is said to have low priority- bair, uair, fair, utilt, jab, and Falcon Kick (even though it's terrible) all have really good priority. And Falcon Dive is a grab. I think it's more of a lack of safe approaches and disjointed hitboxes that makes him so bad.

LuLLo · May 4, 2009

Hasn't anyone tested this yet? If not, then what are we talking about, let's clear this thing up, Knee didn't know at what percentage this was, so let's test it!! (Including me, I admit I'm lazy too...)

Red-Blue · May 4, 2009

Ray_Kalm said:
~~You'll regret you ever said that.~~ Didn't Brawl have low hitstun to begin with?

Fixed, right there.

t3h n00b · May 4, 2009

LuLLo said:
Hasn't anyone tested this yet? If not, then what are we talking about, let's clear this thing up, Knee didn't know at what percentage this was, so let's test it!! (Including me, I admit I'm lazy too...)

There's no way to test this besides spiking people with Raptor Boost. I did it to a Snake today and he didn't hit me back immediately, he died. That is because he had a high amount of damage, and couldn't meteor cancel then uair -_-

F5Hazardousdoc · May 4, 2009

This just sounds like a low percent raptor boost spike. At high percents, I've been raptor boost spiked and couldn't meteor cancel fast enough to avoid death. Whatever, raptor boost fails for a recovery anyways.

Zeallyx · May 4, 2009

Ray_Kalm said:
~~You'll regret you ever said that.~~ Didn't most of Falcon's attacks have low hitstun to begin with?

~~I dont think so~~

And@T3h N00b:
Ok then it is meteor canceling.
DONT, I repeat, DONT LOOK INTO THIS. At all costs. Just dont. Cause you know..ToKnee said it.

Do you see this --> :pimp:

Thats me not caring.

Player-3 · May 4, 2009

Wow.

if you ACTUALLY think that this sucks for falcon, your stupid.

Darxmarth23 · May 4, 2009

Player-3 said:
Wow.

if you ACTUALLY think that this sucks for falcon, your stupid.

He has spoken. *DhooM*

But in all seriousness, any falcon who Rb spikes is a ******* idiot. Unless you ledge grab cancel the ending lag, and miraculously save your self, this is a waste of time.

Zeallyx · May 5, 2009

Player-3 said:
Wow.

if you ACTUALLY think that this sucks for falcon, your stupid.

Wow.

Have you NOT read what I said?

aerial RB usage from 0.99 -->0.00 = all.
Just it beeing cast aside due to my username is the problem.

This could happen at higher percents..
look into it+prove me wrong, or just dont post here.

I could be right, and in that case, like I said, aerial raptor boost usage from 0.99-->0.00.

Not a big deal, no.

But people DO use aerial raptor boost to recover. Even good players.
When they are mindgamed into feeling safe using it, they will. (and yes, even ogod players get mindgamed.).

t3h n00b · May 5, 2009

I'm not trying to be mean, but you're going to need proof that Raptor Boost has some sort of inexplicable flaw that isn't explained by quickly meteor canceling a weak spike, not the other way around. What you keep saying is 100% explained by meteor canceling, yet you are asking P3 to prove you wrong. All you have is one situation (still most likely explained by meteor canceling) and no video, now you ask for proof. If you say good players should never use aerial Raptor Boost, then it shouldn't be a problem. I use it occasionally, and my opponents haven't figured out a possible obscure way to hit me out of it, they die if I spike them at high percentages.

Mit · May 5, 2009

t3h n00b said:
I don't get how Falcon is said to have low priority- bair, uair, fair, utilt, jab, and Falcon Kick (even though it's terrible) all have really good priority. And Falcon Dive is a grab.

Surely you are aware that priority does not exist in the air. Only if you use aerials against grounded opponents, and even then, I wouldn't call it 'really good' priority. Especially Falcon Kick (it's better than raptor boost, but I've still been hit out of it many times).

t3h n00b · May 5, 2009

Mit said:
Surely you are aware that priority does not exist in the air. Only if you use aerials against grounded opponents, and even then, I wouldn't call it 'really good' priority. Especially Falcon Kick (it's better than raptor boost, but I've still been hit out of it many times).

Right, but the air moves I mentioned do have good priority against ground moves, and by the same logic, no one could have bad priority in the air. Utilt and jab beat most moves that they hit (utilt outranges a lot of stuff anyway), especially those with equal damage, and Falcon Kick actually has excellent priority. It goes through Tornado if you get the hitbox out in time, and the same goes for a flubbed knee. I've used bair and utilt too.

Alright, this sucks

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