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Matchups-based Tier List

BentoBox

Smash Master
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Sooooo... I thought it would be interesting to create a tier list based on matchups alone, ala SF, as it seems much more objective, less prone to confusion and silly debates (Pit is too low imo); it is based entirely from facts rather than the opinion of a select few. But to come up with such a chart would require us to have a great general understanding of all matchups in the game and I do realize we are nowhere near that point but I still tried to work with the resources I had: Our match-up threads~ :D

Bowser: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211975
CF: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=227365
Diddy: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181638
DK: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193883
Falco: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167202
Fox: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186742
G&W: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174763
Ganon: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=202473
ICs: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188700
Ike: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192160
Jigglypuff: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=210009
K.DDD: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192600
Kirby: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=195032
Link: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=231077 NOTHING
Lucario: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221578 + http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176912 + http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205287
Lucas: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=183767
Luigi: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199357 + http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174824&highlight=snake
Mario: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=227291 + http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=155877&highlight=zelda
Marth: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186736 SO SEXY
MK: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=179463
Ness: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188116
Olimar: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172222
Peach: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178193
Pikachu: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174335
Pit: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197115
Poke T: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188314
ROB: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230591 + http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=204649
Samus: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=217233
Sheik: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226389 + http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174741
Snake: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175515
Sonic: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190510
T.Link: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=182155
Wario: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=224269 + http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196010
Wolf: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188329
Yoshi: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201922
Zelda: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190698
ZSS: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203418 + http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4730847#post4730847
Now sorting out all the information was a real mess. It was apparent that MU discussions rarely involved the members of the opposing parties and so you would have great discrepancies at that level (you'd frequently have both characters claiming they have the advantage over the other >_>). Some matchups simply were never discussed thoroughly so the accuracy of the data leaves to be desired... When both parties came up with different ratios, I would simply take the average. I also assumed the D3 infinite was banned. I then compiled all that data on excel and ended up with this (Yes, it took a while and yes, it is far from accurate but hopefully, the community will man up and finish the job =3):



At the far right, I summed all of the respective characters' MUs and sorted the values, hence giving a tier list displaying the characters with the most favorable matchups in decreasing order:

224.5 MK surprise!
217 Marth
214.5 G&W
205.5 Wario
200 Snake
195.5 Olimar
194.5 Falco
194.5 Ics
194 ROB
193 K.DDD
192 Lucario
190 Kirby
188.5 Peach
188 ZSS
186.5 Pikachu
186.5 Wolf
186 Toon Link
185 Pit
184.5 Diddy
183.5 Zelda
183 Donkey
180.5 Luigi
180.5 Sheik
179.5 Yoshi
174 Ness
170.5 Poke. T
170 Lucas
170 Mario
167 Fox
165 Ike
160 Sonic
158.5 Samus
156.5 Bowser
153 Jigglypuff
151 Link
126 Captain F
108.5 Ganon
But for such a list to hold any weight, you would have to assume that an equal representation of every character would be present at tournaments, which is usually not the case. So a bit further right I summed every character's MUs against the top 10 characters:

58.5 MK
52.5 Marth
52 G&W
51.5 ROB
51.5 Wario
50 Snake
48.5 ZSS
48.5 Olimar
48 Kirby
48 Peach
46.5 K.DDD
46 Yoshi
45 Pikachu
44.5 Zelda
44.5 Falco
44 Diddy
44 Donkey
44 Lucario
44 Toon Link
44 Ics
43 Sheik
43 Wolf
42.5 Poke. T
42 Pit
41.5 Fox
41 Mario
41 Ness
40 Bowser
40 Ike
40 Lucas
40 Luigi
40 Sonic
39 Samus
38 Link
37 Jigglypuff
28 Captain F
23 Ganon
I was under the impression that GW did poorly against the tops? I didn't really pay attention to the numbers I was typing down in Excel tbh, and it is clear that those MUs need to be reworked; Point being that I believe this method is much more relevant and we aren't left wondering why character X is above Y. Voting for a position is silly.

Yadayada, Discuss.
 

Kinzer

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I find it funny how Sonic's written MU ratios are always more depressing than the actual combat.
 

Meru.

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Quite interesting. Who would have thought that MK would be 1st! ;p

Ok, seriously, some things really surprised me. I didn't expect ZSS and Peach to be so high. And Snake is low o.o (5th on both lists, I would expect him to stay in the top 3).

Anyway, good job, you just have worked hard on this.
 

:034:

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Only thing I can see is that bad characters often exaggerate the numbers in a bad way (10:90 disadvantage wtf?) and that good characters do the same in a good way for them (80:20 advantage). The discussions aren't objective either, because humans are involved, introducting an always subjective standpoint.
 

Spade1

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 8, 2009
Messages
189
i approve

Matchups and Tier lists are two things I think are sort of pointless imo...

but none the less this is really interesting. nice work.
 

BBoyindo

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Quite interesting. Who would have thought that MK would be 1st! ;p

Ok, seriously, some things really surprised me. I didn't expect ZSS and Peach to be so high. And Snake is low o.o (5th on both lists, I would expect him to stay in the top 3).

Anyway, good job, you just have worked hard on this.
Snake is low because his MU chart isn't done yet.
Also i think a MU based chart is much better then a chart based on tourney results and other stuff.
 

Xebenkeck

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Good info, you deserve a cookie :)
and in some ways shows why some chars are were they are,
i.e. Luigi against the top 10 is 7th worst. Interesting Yoshi is 12th.

Despite it being a lil inaccurate, it does give a general feel of the overall match-ups characters have. And less we forget the 3 things that make a tier list are, match-ups, tourney results, and strenghts/weaknesses of the char.
 

:mad:

Bird Law Aficionado
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Yeah, we Marios are just recently started our rediscussion. If you don't wanna bother checking, I can just post whatever ratio we agree on in the future.
 

PK-ow!

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I think this should be done by coming up with an equation - one that incorporates the dependent nature of "matchup values" "tournament representation" and "tier position by representation-weighted matchup values" - and then probably using a computer to find the solution.
There's a name for the kind of program that would do this, but it's not coming to mind.

That is, you said that tournament representation alters how much matchup values matter to this specific kind of 'tier position'. At the same time though, 'tier position' in the sense you are trying to find, affects tournament representation.
(The interesting thing here is that you should be able to solve for matchup values using the other factors... except MUs are the one independent variable here; MUs simply are what they are, 'cause they get to exist in a vacuum.)

This is not to say it's hopelessly entangled and circular, though, that's my point. The meta still ends up being a certain way. If some sort of equation could be written - probably an implicit one - then a computer program could find the solution, or sets of solutions (a set would represent an *essentially* fluctuating meta game).
EDIT: In Plum. Essentially fluctuating, because no state is stable; each one suggests a change in character representation that then alters the state and feeds the cycle.


If I had to tl; dr at this point, my message is this: The second of your lists, should 'recur' on itself, or something like that, should it not? That is, take the top 10 chars on that list to be "the top 10 chars," and recalculate it.... and keep doing this until the solution stops changing.

. . .

We need a math major.
 

Nicole

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this is cool, and i agree, i can't believe GW is so high, because he gets absolutely ***** by snake and marth, and gets pretty beaten by MK and diddy as well.

strange that diddy is so low also. i don't claim to understand math though....
 

JOE!

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Snake is low because his MU chart isn't done yet.
Also i think a MU based chart is much better then a chart based on tourney results and other stuff.
yeah, tournament results scew the list really..

I mean, look at (ally/azen) when they played (pika/lucario), they shot up the tier lists and people said "omg, these chars are awesome!", when it was really Azen/Ally just trashing with the character

(yes, it does show they can be good, but lets not start something here....)
(another thing is that a char could be considered "good", but one char just destroys him (D3 vs DK anyone?) so they dont show off their potential as well)


As for the OP:

I started something similar wayy back in the "why is yoshi low tier?" thread around when I fisrt joined

what i did was simply add up all of a character's matchup ratios, and divide by 39

(39 is because adding Pokemon Trainer as his own char didnt make a difference when the 3 pokemon he has are allready involved to be evened out, and adding a 5 (or 50) for the ditto)

what came up was what I call a "kill percent", or essentially, if you took that char VS the random button, how much of the time it would win (assuming equal skill players, etc)

the list from the MU charts of that time that i did (the only complete ones)
 

MorphedChaos

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Well, Wario's only bad matchup is Marth really, and with a discussion thread going, we might swap some up.

Also, Wario vs D3 varies too much by stage to really mean anything, it can be 4:6 D3, or 7:3 Wario.
 

:mad:

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Yeah, it's about time we finally decided to have a real matchup discussion...
 

Yonder

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Th chart is rather inaccurate so far (lulz, Luigi 7th worst for top tier. He's not good against them, but not with all the bottom tiers)

Right off the bat whn I scrolled through Luigi's matchups,I noticed...

For Wario: 6/4 Wario advantage? Matchup is 7/3 Luigi's advantage.
For Bowser: 5/5 Against Bowser? It's 6.5/3.5 for Luigi's advantage.
For Mario: 6/4 Luigi? Luigi vs Mario is 5/5.

Just wanted to clear those up, I'm not too knowledeable about his other matchups.

Good concept for a chart though.
 

Noa.

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G&W has three distinct bad matchups; Snake 35:65, Marth 35:65 and MK 40:60. Diddy is disadvantaged but it's only 45:55 IMO.

I could imagine why G&W is high on the first list. He destroys practically all of low and bottom tier according to the threads.

But on the second list, I'm not sure why he's so high. He does decent against all characters in Top/high tier, but Snake, Marth and MK should really kill his position.

It's probably because the formula doesn't take into account how popular certain characters are. Having bad matchups against Snake and MK, the most popular characters, is what really hurts G&W's tier position.
 

BentoBox

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Yeah, some of these match-ups are from old MU threads which closed down; it seems like a lot of boards have decided to start fresh and rework their match-up threads from scratch just recently. So I know it isn't accurate and a lot of MUs don't make sense. I just wanted to have somewhat of a finished product to post up, and perhaps propose a new way to build up Tier Lists rather than having the SBR's members vote on who should be where, results which are then compiled and ordered. Such a method just doesn't seem objective enough and it's the only reason why TL threads have 1000 pages or so; because nobody can never agree on the position of "X" character, and nobody is being told WHY, say Ness is right next to Lucas. With the method that I'm proposing, you'd know right off the bat where a character places comparatively to the rest of the cast and most importantly, WHY.

@PK-ow, yeah, ideally it would be done that way, but for it to work you would actually need to know where characters rank before assigning a certain value corresponding to their relevance. I'm not much of a programmer myself xD.

To give you guys an idea, that was actually my 3rd sheet in excel, here's what the second sheet looked like:



The Yellow cells are that MU ratios that came directly from the opposing board because it wasn't actually discussed in the respective character's MU thread. The Orange cells are the averages of two ratios (as opposing boards rarely seem to agree on anything...). You'll notice that pretty much every cell on Ganon's column is yellow, and that is because nobody even bothers discussing the MU other than the Ganon board itself.

If this is actually going to work, we would need the whole community to work together, but will that ever happen? =/


Why? SBR hasn't banned it, so why assume this condition for the tier list?
The only DKs you'll ever see in tournaments doing well attend tourneys where the mechanic is banned. There is somewhat of a soft-ban on the infinite in most areas too. But yeah, it would drop down to 8:2/9:1? I don't even know, nor has anyone discussed the match-up taking into consideration the infinite. It went like "With the infinite LOL but without it's prolly 6:4..."

haha, if time was women then i'd be a pimp LOL
Lol! XD I was hoping someone would catch that!
 

Gates

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The only DKs you'll ever see in tournaments doing well attend tourneys where the mechanic is banned. There is somewhat of a soft-ban on the infinite in most areas too. But yeah, it would drop down to 8:2/9:1? I don't even know, nor has anyone discussed the match-up taking into consideration the infinite. It went like "With the infinite LOL but without it's prolly 6:4..."
But this isn't about tournament results, it's about matchup ratios.

Also, here's a fair estimate of what the matchup ratios would be like with and without the infinite.

Bowser:
70:30 Dedede with
65:35 Dedede without

Donkey Kong:
70:30 Dedede with
60:40 Dedede without

Ganondorf:
70:30 Dedede with
65:35 Dedede without

Luigi:
70:30 Dedede with
60:40 Dedede without

Mario:
70:30 Dedede with
60:40 Dedede without

Samus:
70:30 Dedede with
60:40 Dedede without

Wolf:
70:30 Dedede with
65:35 Dedede without

I'm being pretty generous with these numbers because there is rarely any matchup that is COMPLETELY unwinnable. There were a couple matchups with infinite that I wasn't sure deserved to be 70:30 but in the end I decided that they had those qualities more than 65:35.

This has never officially been discussed in the Dedede matchup thread, but the numbers will be something along these lines. I run the Dedede matchup thread, so until we run real discussions you can take these as actual values. If you don't want to change them to reflect an infinite legal environment, then I suggest making 2 lists - one with the infinite banned and one without. It really wouldn't even take that much work.

On an unrelated note, have you considered doing top 15 instead of top 10? You cite Street Fighter (IV) as your example, but the cast of that game is 12 characters less than Brawl.
 

Garquille14

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I've been studying the mathematical creation of tier lists since last July. I essentially have already finished, but I need to create an example for display first, which takes a lot of time. I can't perform the actual tier list because not all matchups have been decided on and it would be nearly impossible to do it by hand.

As the time has passed on, I have only become more convinced of the truth of a mathematical tier list. Now I'm nearly at the end of the trek and satisfied with what I've done. My time working on it has been scarce due to many things getting in the way... but now I think I'm done with the standard stages.

Once this is released, the remaining stages would be to try to simplify it and to work it into a program that can perform it for you. I plan to have a fullblown topic on this that covers everything about mathematical tier lists. Please look forward to it soon. I hope to be done in a week.
 

JOE!

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think we should try to make ratios that dont exist here?

(the whites on the charts)
 

_Icy_

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Nice list, I kinda like it better than the real tier list >_>
 

Paingel

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Alright, I'm no math major but I do have some college-level mathematical background so maybe I can be of some use here.

I noticed that, a lot of times, some characters are Top Tier because they are just plain powerful. And then other characters are Top Tier or close to Top Tier NOT because they are particularly powerful, BUT because they counter the characters that ARE Top Tier.

To me, this brings to mind the Yomi Layer concept as defined by David Sirlin: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/yomi-layer-3-knowing-the-mind-of-the-opponent.html

Let's look at MK and Snake. MK is good in a general sense no matter what your opponent picks. Since this choice doesn't require that you know what your opponent will pick, you could call this a Yomi Layer 0 pick.

So let's say your opponent has picked MK and you get to CP. Well, Snake is a good matchup against MK, so you decide to pick Snake. This is a Yomi Layer 1 pick.

As far as I know, there's no mindgames involved in picking characters. I'm not implying that there is. But mind-reading isn't the only facet of the Yomi Layer concept. Another facet of the Yomi Layer concept is the idea of moves and counter moves, and it's that facet that I am deciding to focus on.

However, because of the uniqueness of this situation, we only REALLY need to focus on two layers: Yomi Layer 0 and Yomi Layer 1. (After all, the MK player isn't going to be able to change his character after his opponent CPs Snake. There's no concept of Yomi Layer 2 here.)

Here's what I suggest: Make 2 different tier lists. One tier list will be based upon Yomi Layer 0. This will be the most basic form of the tier list assuming that players will just pick characters at random (that is, characters that they "like") with no regard to what their opponent is going to pick.

*Note: from this point on my values are totally made up*
(Yomi Layer 0 Tier List)
For each character:
-Determine the MU ratios for each MU relevant to this character. For example, if the current character is MK, and he has a 99:1 chance to win vs. Ganondorf, then we say MK has a 0.99 win ratio. However you do this is up to you. This process is very algorithmic and as a result, if you put garbage in you'll get garbage out. But assuming you have accurate values here, this process should hopefully work fine.
-Take the average of the MU win ratios for each MU relevant to that character. We'll call this number the character's Average Success Rate (ASR). So if MK, on average, wins about 99% of the time, then his ASR be 0.99. It's important that this number be between 0 and 1 (inclusive), because we're going to be using this as a weight later.

Once you've taken the averages of all the MUs, arrange them in order so that the characters with the highest averages are at the top and characters with lower averages are at the bottom.
That part was pretty obvious to some, maybe all of you. But the next part might not be so obvious.

The next step is to evaluate each character as a potential CP. This assumes that you already know what character your opponent is going to use and are freely able to pick a proper counter.

(Yomi Layer 1 Tier List)
For each character:
-Use the same MU ratios as before. Only this time, multiply that ratio by the opponent's ASR. So if MK vs. Ganondorf is still 99:1, but Ganondorf's ASR is .01, then MK gets .99 * .01 = .0099 for his Gandondorf MU. In short, pwning a weak character is useless.
-Sum up the weighted ratios and divide it by the total number of characters to get the Weighted ASR, or WASR.

Now hold the WASR in your hand and go "PEW PEW PEW"

One you have the calculated the WASRs for all characters, arrange them to make the YL1 Tier List.

This way the tier lists might be a bit more insightful, since the tier list somewhat changes based upon the given situation.

That might be too long and complicated, so here's an example of how this might work:
Consider a fighting game with only 4 characters: Mary, Larry, Zeno, and Rick. Mary, Larry, and Zeno are all intended to be "balanced" characters, but we all know already that they aren't. Rick is totally a joke character.

Assume that the following chart is the accurate measurement of their MU ratios.
\ M L Z R
M .5 .25 .75 1
L .75 .5 .60 1
Z .25 .40 .5 1
R 0 0 0 .5

That is to say, Mary has a 50% chance to beat Mary, a 25% chance to beat Larry, a 75% chance to beat Zeno and a 100% chance to beat Rick.
And so on.

So for the YL0 Tier List, Mary's ratio total would = .5 + .25 + .75 + 1 = 2.50.
Mary's ASR = 2.5 / 4 = 0.625.

Using this process for each character we get the following tier list:
Top Tier
Larry (0.7125)

Middle Tier
Mary (0.625)

Low Tier
Zeno (0.5375)

Joke tier
Rick (0.125)

Now to use this information to calculate the WASRs for each character.

For example:
Mary's WASR = (.5*.625 + .25*.7125 + .75*.5375 + 1*.125 ) / 4 = 1.01875

After calculating the WASRs for all characters we get the following tier list:
Top Tier
Larry (~0.318125)

Middle Tier
Mary (~0.254688)

Low Tier
Zeno (~0.20875)

Joke Tier
Rick (~0.015625)

Notice that, the way the system works, you don't get much for winning a lot against a weak character that no one will ever play. You could essentially remove Rick from this tier list and still have the same ranks.

I could go on but I think I'll stop here.

Edit: Actually, I did some more experiments with this and discovered something very interesting about this system. First off, I changed Rick from the Joke Character to the God Character, making him win against MOST characters 100% of the time. Then I added a new character named L.O.L. and had him do very poorly against almost everyone except for Rick, which he effectively counters. The end result is this:

Layer 1 Tier list:
God Tier
Rick (~0.73) (Because he pwns everyone except for L.O.L.)
L.O.L. (~0.61) (Even though he sucks vs. just about everyone, he counters God-Rick, so he's worth learning how to play as long as Rick isn't banned. If Rick were taken out of consideration, LOL would end up at the bottom tier with no real use.)

Top Tier
Larry (~0.47)

Middle Tier
Marry (~0.42)

Bottom Tier
Zeno (~0.38)

I'm willing to say that this is pretty much working as intended. Also, note that since I'm only using 5 characters, my graph is a bit more sparse than it would be for, say, Brawl. With Brawl's 35+ characters to consider, its tier list should look a lot better.
 

Gates

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LOL Bento, I don't think this forum is ready for this.
I was going to contradict you, but then I realized that this is in Brawl General and not Brawl Tactical.

Anyway, I think that Paingel's plan, while definitely tl;dr, is a good idea.
 

Ranor469

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Using the model Paingel explained in this post:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7272888&postcount=30

I applied it to all of the characters in brawl. First I added up each one of their winning matchup ratios and divided by 37 to get a basic score for each character. Then for each character and each matchup,

listed here: http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/7071/iftimewasawomanidbeapim.jpg

I multiplied the basic score of the character they were playing against by their chance of beating that character. Afterward I added up all the scores and ended with an ending score for each character. For example, for Yoshi, the equation for the end score would be (chance to win against bowser X bowser's basic score + chance to win against captain falcon X captain falcons basic score and so on...)

This method is good because it takes into account that beating a character with a higher basic score means more than beating a character with a lower one, because the higher their score, the better their matchups are in general.

So, My results are: (rounded out so they are pretty)

MK 1138
Marth 1095
GW 1084
Wario 1039
Snake 1015
ROB 984
Olimar 983
Falco 978
Ics 977
DDD 976
Lucario 969
Kirby 963
Peach 955
ZSS 955
Pikachu 941
TL 940
Wolf 939
Pit 933
Diddy 929
DK 928
Zelda 924
Luigi 915
Yoshi 908
Sheik 907
Ness 880
PT 866
Mario 861
Lucas 856
Fox 844
Ike 836
Sonic 814
Samus 802
Bowser 797
Jiggz 777
Link 768
Falcon 641
Ganon 553

So based on the tier liist it should be relatively easy to divide the characters into tiers. I still have the excel spreadsheet to change the value for a MU easily in case it is changed so I can attain new results.

So here is the matchup based tier list! /discuss
 

Meru.

I like spicy food
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B*tch (SS) Tier
MK 1138

S Tier
Marth 1095
GW 1084

A Tier
Wario 1039
Snake 1015

B Tier

ROB 984
Olimar 983
Falco 978
Ics 977
DDD 976
Lucario 969
Kirby 963

B-C Tier*

Peach 955
ZSS 955

C Tier
Pikachu 941
TL 940
Wolf 939
Pit 933
Diddy 929
DK 928
Zelda 924

D Tier

Luigi 915
Yoshi 908
Sheik 907

E Tier
Ness 880
PT 866
Mario 861
Lucas 856
Fox 844
Ike 836

F Tier

Sonic 814
Samus 802
Bowser 797
Jiggz 777
Link 768

G Tier
Falcon 641
Ganon 553

So, would it look like this when it would be divided in tiers?

* Didn't know where to place Peach and ZSS so I placed them in BC tier o.o
 

Paingel

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 11, 2007
Messages
117
From SS tier to G tier? That's pretty precise.

I'm not at all surprised to see MK at the top any more than I am to see Ganon at the bottom. But according to this then Marth and G&W overall > Snake overall, which is a bit different than what I expected to see, since Snake was considered to be right up there with Meta Knight according to another tier list.

This tier list makes sense to me, but I'm no real expert so I guess we'll see. I'd like to note that, based upon this tier list, we should see more Marths and G&Ws than I've seen so far.
 

Da-D-Mon-109

Smash Lord
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:flame:
Many of the match-up threads require lots of updating. Lots of the information is either way outdated, or just plain misguided, and there is not a clear consensus on a lot of things.

However, the idea of a Tierlist made from straight up match up statistics.... now THAT is a good idea.

:flame:
 

Ranor469

Smash Apprentice
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From SS tier to G tier? That's pretty precise.

I'm not at all surprised to see MK at the top any more than I am to see Ganon at the bottom. But according to this then Marth and G&W overall > Snake overall, which is a bit different than what I expected to see, since Snake was considered to be right up there with Meta Knight according to another tier list.

This tier list makes sense to me, but I'm no real expert so I guess we'll see. I'd like to note that, based upon this tier list, we should see more Marths and G&Ws than I've seen so far.
The reason there are not as many Marths and GWs is because Marth has a counter in MK and 60:40 disadvantages against DDD and Snake who are all used VERY often in tourneys. GW has 2 counters, Marth and Snake, and has 2 disadvantages against MK and Diddy. All of those characters are used a lot in tourneys which is why Marth and GW dont do as well as you think they should.
 

Zenthewanderer

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It has potential. I'll give it that. Also nice to see someone putting so much effort into a Smash project.
 

Ray_Kalm

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But this isn't about tournament results, it's about matchup ratios.

Also, here's a fair estimate of what the matchup ratios would be like with and without the infinite.

Bowser:
70:30 Dedede with
65:35 Dedede without

Donkey Kong:
70:30 Dedede with
60:40 Dedede without

Ganondorf:
70:30 Dedede with
65:35 Dedede without

Luigi:
70:30 Dedede with
60:40 Dedede without

Mario:
70:30 Dedede with
60:40 Dedede without

Samus:
70:30 Dedede with
60:40 Dedede without

Wolf:
70:30 Dedede with
65:35 Dedede without

I'm being pretty generous with these numbers because there is rarely any matchup that is COMPLETELY unwinnable. There were a couple matchups with infinite that I wasn't sure deserved to be 70:30 but in the end I decided that they had those qualities more than 65:35.

This has never officially been discussed in the Dedede matchup thread, but the numbers will be something along these lines. I run the Dedede matchup thread, so until we run real discussions you can take these as actual values. If you don't want to change them to reflect an infinite legal environment, then I suggest making 2 lists - one with the infinite banned and one without. It really wouldn't even take that much work.

On an unrelated note, have you considered doing top 15 instead of top 10? You cite Street Fighter (IV) as your example, but the cast of that game is 12 characters less than Brawl.
5 points for a infinite? Yeah, that makes real sense.

Anyways, BentoBox, you should redo Ganon's average again, the chart's been updated
 

Ranor469

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Messages
82
Location
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I think that possibly for the sake of the numbers i produced, that a 4 MU is too close to a 5 MU and it should be exponential instead of linear. Maybe then the chart will come out better and Marth and GW would be punished more for having bad MUs against the top tiers. I just need someone to come up with some numbers to try and I can plug them in.

Just need ideas on what every ratio would be

heres an example of what i think:
9.5=361
9=324
8.5=289
8=256
7.5=225
7=196
6.5=169
6=144
5.5=121
5=100
4.5=81
4=64
3.5=49
3=36
2.5=25
2=16
1.5=9
1=4
.5=1

/discuss
 
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