Falcon Moveset Discussion: summaries coming soon

talkingbeatles · May 5, 2009

I haven't used this move in a while. Not seriously that is. A lot of my friends like to play FFA, no items, and honestly, I don't even use it much during those fights. The risk is just really not worth the reward in my opinion.
If you're a stock ahead, and you're feeling gutsy, go ahead throw one in, but like LuLLo said, and I think everyone will say, there are always better options.
A friend of mine once said that you should always just be doing at least a 180, because if you hit it's going to be on the fault of your opponent, and you're going to be lucky as ****. I don't know if I subscribe to this idea, (when I do use the punch, it's the vanilla version,) it's an interesting thought.
I've also seen people full jumping off and then doing a reverse Falcon punch to hit someone hanging on the ledge. That seems like it would be cool to pull off...

A pity that the move people know Falcon by is terribly circumstantial. Save it as a taunt.

t3h n00b · May 5, 2009

I use the 360 to recover sometimes, and there are a lot more laggy moves to use this on than you think. Not saying you have to or anything, but I've predicted a reflector kick and PKT2 and easily got kills. Also, since I play on Norfair so much, I occasionally throw a punch when the lava wall is coming and the opponent is trying to avoid it. I've hit a Kirby as he was using inhale, on the way down after getting hit by the weak hitbox of Luigi's upB, after invincibility frames in doubles, predictable Illusions... there really are a lot of situations you can hit with it, I'm not saying to use the move once every match or anything. I use it when I think it will hit, so maybe once every other serious match. The worst that happens is me getting grabbed, and I probably hit with about half of them because I know what I'm doing.

Mit · May 5, 2009

I've started to use this more, because it really is legit in some situations for punishing.

I haven't found many consistent situations I could quote, but I just keep it in mind often and try and predict when my opponent is going to use something laggy, or recover onto the stage, or unwisely climb up slowly.

I also throw it out there sometimes and pray. I recently discovered how much you can confused people with the DI of the reverse Punch. Stuff like jumping straight up, then DI'ing forward when you reverse punch. It's happened for me a few times.

Also need to test out punishing onstage Marth recoveries.

smashkng · May 5, 2009

A turn Falcon Punch usually start to KO at 50% if not DIed. Has high priority unlike his other attacks but it's also very slow. I think this work better as a surprise move more than anything else. The tipper is also weaker than other parts to know and it also sounds differently.

t3h n00b · May 5, 2009

Honestly, Falcon Punch has pretty bad priority. Not only is Falcon's jab way faster, but they actually clank if they hit at the same time mostly... 2 damage jab and 25 damage, 1 second startup Falcon Punch. And I do have relevant information in the OP.

talkingbeatles · May 5, 2009

t3h n00b said:
Honestly, Falcon Punch has pretty bad priority. Not only is Falcon's jab way faster, but they actually clank if they hit at the same time mostly... 2 damage jab and 25 damage, 1 second startup Falcon Punch. And I do have relevant information in the OP.

Yeah. I've had a Falcon punch clank with Ike's jab.
What the ****?

masterdrenin · May 5, 2009

i like it awwww yeeeee

Player-3 · May 5, 2009

I ****EN LOVE THIS MOVE

I FALCON PUNCHED ALLY IN A LADDERS MATCH

IS TOURNY VIABLE!$(@)@~*#@()$@_!+)#@!#@!_#~

caps

smashkng · May 5, 2009

I didn't know that even Falcon Pawnch had so low priority. It's hard to find the priority because it lasts a very short time.

Darxmarth23 · May 5, 2009

In this move, you start the punisher (falcon punch) before your opponent makes a mistake. Then it works. But if they don't make the mistake, then you are screwed. And since we can't afford that, we can't afford the chance of messing up. And since we can't afford THAT, don't use falcon punch.

t3h n00b · May 5, 2009

Darxmarth23 said:
In this move, you start the punisher (falcon punch) before your opponent makes a mistake. Then it works. But if they don't make the mistake, then you are screwed. And since we can't afford that, we can't afford the chance of messing up. And since we can't afford THAT, don't use falcon punch.

Your "we" doesn't apply to all situations or players. Falcon Punch doesn't have to be used as an attack always. And even when trying to hit someone with it, it could be one's best chance to come back from a stock down. Anyway, there are 100% safe situations to use it in. PKT2, Super Jump Punch, Dolphin Slash, and sideB recoveries (Illusion, Skull Bash, etc.) are all not too hard to punish with a Falcon Punch. And you might say that would only be due to opponents making mistakes. Well, if an opponent plays without making mistakes, using Falcon is a guaranteed loss anyway.

Player-3 · May 5, 2009

t3h N00b said:
your "we" Doesn't Apply To All Situations Or Players. Falcon Punch Doesn't Have To Be Used As An Attack Always. And Even When Trying To Hit Someone With It, It Could Be One's Best Chance To Come Back From A Stock Down. Anyway, There Are 100% Safe Situations To Use It In. Pkt2, Super Jump Punch, dolphin Slash, And Sideb Recoveries (illusion, Skull Bash, Etc.) Are All Not Too Hard To Punish With A Falcon Punch. And You Might Say That Would Only Be Due To Opponents Making Mistakes. Well, If An Opponent Plays Without Making Mistakes, Using Falcon Is A Guaranteed Loss Anyway.

......wuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut

t3h n00b · May 5, 2009

Player-3 said:
......wuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwMhR_XkxMs

Player-3 · May 5, 2009

t3h n00b said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwMhR_XkxMs

Lol

No.

t3h n00b · May 5, 2009

Player-3 said:
Lol

No.

...that just happened

And Dolphin Slash would be the hardest to Falcon Punch.

Player-3 · May 5, 2009

t3h n00b said:
...that just happened

And Dolphin Slash would be the 99% impossible to Falcon Punch.

Fix'd for correctness

talkingbeatles · May 5, 2009

The problem I see with the video and situation presented is that a human Marth would have DI'd up, pretty harshly, I think allowing them to make it to the stage without having to up B. Granted, we are playing against people who are only human, at the same time, mistakes like that are not bound to happen often. When they do, capitalize, sure.

Player-3 · May 5, 2009

talkingbeatles said:
The problem I see with the video and situation presented is that a human Marth would have DI'd up, pretty harshly, I think allowing them to make it to the stage without having to up B. Granted, we are playing against people who are only human, at the same time, mistakes like that are not bound to happen often. When they do, capitalize, sure.

nope

that marth could have just, say, side-b stalled until the invicibility frames on the falcon wore out

and if the amrth uses up b on stage, this will only happen on somewhere with a platform where the marth can land quickly and not be punished

t3h n00b · May 5, 2009

talkingbeatles said:
When they do, capitalize, sure.

That's all Falcon Punch is for. Well, and epic recoveries. But it might even work on a shielded OoS Dolphin Slash. But ok, Dolphin Slash is very hard to predict and Falcon Punch, if the opponent recovers onstage with it anyway. And I thought the Marth should have Dancing Blade stalled. The rest of the moves aren't really that hard though. And I've Falcon Punched all of those besides Dolphin Slash, I just put that in there because of the video.

And Dolphin Slash would be the 99% impossible to Falcon Punch.

Fair enough.

Darxmarth23 · May 5, 2009

No one is going to DS again after they grabbed the ledge.

Zeallyx · May 5, 2009

Falcon punch requires prediction to land, making it a risk at all times, a risk falcon mains cannot afford to take.
This makes the falcon punch a move which isnt used in falcons current metagame, as there are almost always better options.

The only times falcon punch is usable, is to punish a missed rest, and a shattered shield.

t3h n00b · May 5, 2009

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
Falcon punch requires prediction to land, making it a risk at all times, a risk falcon mains cannot afford to take.
This makes the falcon punch a move which isnt used in falcons current metagame, as there are almost always better options.

The only times falcon punch is usable, is to punish a missed rest, and a shattered shield.

t3h n00b said:
Anyway, there are 100% safe situations to use it in. PKT2, Super Jump Punch, ~~Dolphin Slash~~, and sideB recoveries (Illusion, Skull Bash, etc.) are all not too hard to punish with a Falcon Punch. And you might say that would only be due to opponents making mistakes. Well, if an opponent plays without making mistakes, using Falcon is a guaranteed loss anyway.

A 360 Falcon Punch lets you go farther laterally than just drifting.

Zeallyx · May 5, 2009

t3h n00b said:
A 360 Falcon Punch lets you go farther laterally than just drifting.

Why did you quote me..?
That had nothing to do with my post, and if you think it does, than I tell you now that it doesnt. :pimp:

t3h n00b · May 5, 2009

Sorry, that and my post that I quoted were meant to respond to you. I'm just saying that while it is not a generally useful move, there are more things you can use Falcon Punch for and punish besides a missed rest and broken shield.

Zeallyx · May 5, 2009

t3h n00b said:
Sorry, that and my post that I quoted were meant to respond to you. I'm just saying that while it is not a generally useful move, there are more things you can use Falcon Punch for and punish besides a missed rest and broken shield.

Please provide a list of all moves falcon punch can punish WITHOUT starting the punch BEFORE the oppent starts his/her move.

t3h n00b · May 5, 2009

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
Please provide a list of all moves falcon punch can punish WITHOUT starting the punch BEFORE the oppent starts his/her move.

PKT2 and shoryuken I got the KO that way (after the opponent's move). And rest and a broken shield like you said. Dolphin Slash was shown in the video, but I understand that it's extremely unlikely. And onstage Illusion too, I think. Helpless animation and lag. Either way, everything in my list but maybe sideB moves applies.

Zeallyx · May 5, 2009

t3h n00b said:
PKT2 and shoryuken I got the KO that way (after the opponent's move). And rest and a broken shield like you said. Dolphin Slash was shown in the video, but I understand that it's extremely unlikely. And onstage Illusion too, I think. Helpless animation and lag. Either way, everything in my list but maybe sideB moves applies.

PKT2 is also very very unlikely.
Same with shoryuken and dolphin slash.

On stage illusion doesnt work, or even less likely to work on than dolphin slash.

There is no way to avoid ahving to predict for the falcon punch to connect (with dolphin slash you have to predict DI, same with PKT2 and shoryuken.) and illusions can only be punsihed with a falcon punch if they illusion into your punch (after the punch starts), or it becomes a matter of DI prediction when fox/falco/wolf enter their freefall, like with dolphin slash, PKT2 and shoryuken.

t3h n00b · May 5, 2009

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
PKT2 is also very very unlikely.
Same with shoryuken and dolphin slash.

On stage illusion doesnt work, or even less likely to work on than dolphin slash.

There is no way to avoid ahving to predict for the falcon punch to connect (with dolphin slash you have to predict DI, same with PKT2 and shoryuken.) and illusions can only be punsihed with a falcon punch if they illusion into your punch (after the punch starts), or it becomes a matter of DI prediction when fox/falco/wolf enter their freefall, like with dolphin slash, PKT2 and shoryuken.

PKT2 came at me, so I jumped over and reverse Falcon Punched. Very easy. I agree about Dolphin Slash. No prediction with shoryuken, he hit me with the weak hitbox from the ground , so I just hit B and he had no chance to escape. PKT2 aimed close to the ground (aimed at a standing opponent) doesn't allow enough lateral movement to avoid a Falcon Punch, and in the shoryuken situation, he could only get to the tip range because you can't move through someone else in the air. Even if these things require practice/luck to pull off, in these situations missing isn't terrible. And ok, so for Illusion you'd have to predict. I said I wasn't sure about it, but either way, starting the punch first can't get you punished, and can still hit your opponent often.

Zeallyx · May 5, 2009

t3h n00b said:
PKT2 came at me, so I jumped over and reverse Falcon Punched. Very easy. I agree about Dolphin Slash. No prediction with shoryuken, he hit me with the weak hitbox from the ground , so I just hit B and he had no chance to escape. PKT2 aimed close to the ground (aimed at a standing opponent) doesn't allow enough lateral movement to avoid a Falcon Punch, and in the shoryuken situation, he could only get to the tip range because you can't move through someone else in the air. Even if these things require practice/luck to pull off, in these situations missing isn't terrible.

I really hope you are either kidding, or are just the messenger

As those are all situations a good player will never be in.

Opponents shoryuken when there is a platform above them, or when they are near the ledge, to sweetspot it afterwards.

PKT2 is never used that recklessly. ever.

etc. etc.

Again, Falcon punch always requires prediction, making a better option always present.

t3h n00b · May 5, 2009

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
I really hope you are either kidding, or are just the messenger

As those are all situations a good player will never be in.

Opponents shoryuken when there is a platform above them, or when they are near the ledge, to sweetspot it afterwards.

PKT2 is never used that recklessly. ever.

etc. etc.

Again, Falcon punch always requires prediction, making a better option always present.

People use shoryuken as an attack (grounded, it's his strongest KO move by very far) occasionally as Luigi, and I can find plenty of instances where good players used it without a platform under them. They miss the strong hitbox some of the time. So I Falcon Punched. PKT2 is obviously used that recklessly, because it happened to me (so did the shoryuken one). I'm not saying that people should get hit by Falcon Punches, but there are plenty of occasions where people make mistakes where they can be unavoidably hit by one if you can recognize them quickly enough.

Zeallyx · May 5, 2009

t3h n00b said:
People use shoryuken as an attack (grounded, it's his strongest KO move by very far) occasionally as Luigi, and I can find plenty of instances where good players used it without a platform under them. They miss the strong hitbox some of the time. So I Falcon Punched. PKT2 is obviously used that recklessly, because it happened to me (so did the shoryuken one). I'm not saying that people should get hit by Falcon Punches, but there are plenty of occasions where people make mistakes where they can be unavoidably hit by one if you can recognize them quickly enough.

The fact you admit it all depends on the opponents mistake(s), proves how much the falcon punch sucks.

Also, good players wont recklessly shoryuken..why would they? we dont throw around knee's close to the ground, either, do we?

And sorry, let me rephrase that: good players will not use PKT2 so recklessly, as it is..not needed..

they have better/safer approaches wich they use etc.

You are very wrong to think these things are guaranteed falcon punch setups, very wrong.

And the reason why one would defend the falcon punches usability in competitive play is also something i will never understand.

You do know, that if YOU miss with the falcon punch, you will get punished very hard. It can cost you the match.

t3h n00b · May 5, 2009

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
The fact you admit it all depends on the opponents mistake(s), proves how much the falcon punch sucks.

Also, good players wont recklessly shoryuken..why would they? we dont throw around knee's close to the ground, either, do we?

And sorry, let me rephrase that: good players will not use PKT2 so recklessly, as it is..not needed..

they have better/safer approaches wich they use etc.

You are very wrong to think these things are guaranteed falcon punch setups, very wrong.

And the reason why one would defend the falcon punches usability in competitive play is also something i will never understand.

You do know, that if YOU miss with the falcon punch, you will get punished very hard. It can cost you the match.

In that specific situation, that guy needed a kill move and I was outspacing him, so he used PKT2. I Falcon Punched him, so it was a mistake.

I'm not saying that Falcon Punch is a mostly useful move. I have said the opposite many times. Good players make mistakes. Bad players make a lot of mistakes. All I'm saying is that if your opponent makes certain mistakes, you can hit a Falcon Punch without any hope of retaliation. Also, the worst thing that an opponent can do to you after a whiffed Falcon Punch isn't as good as Falcon Punching you, right? It's not a generally useful move, but if you know how to use it, it can net unexpected kills. It's like Rest, obviously worse though.

FAILchion- · May 5, 2009

M'kay, let's see what I've missed...

Falcon Dive- Great for mind****s. Decent knockback, good punisher (though, you could punish with better moves), and serves as an amazing stage gimp. Recovery-wise, it's fairly good, both vertically and horizontally. 6/10.

Falcon Punch- Manly. And uhh... strong. And manly. Looks cool, and it's manly. 1/10, though.

Iwan · May 5, 2009

No one ever f*****g listens to me on this.
lol.

BUT.

Just try this. Please.....just try it.

Land a falcon dive on someone when they're above you, whether it's after a throw or something....essentially, just read them to where you land the falcon dive on your opponent in the air.

It will send them a little bit away from you.

As soon as you finish landing falcon dive, immediately falcon punch. For some strange reason, almost every player on earth DI's towards you because they think they can punish you after you've landed falcon dive on them.

I am so serious right now

Just try it

I've landed this on legitimate, good players on more than one occasion...and it always results in an early KO for me......

and also, massive lulz. Plus, half the time you can shield after the punch comes out and be safe.

Doesn't work everytime.
But it does work.

Just try it and tell me what the outcome is

Psychoace · May 5, 2009

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
Falcon punch requires prediction to land, making it a risk at all times, a risk falcon mains cannot afford to take.
This makes the falcon punch a move which isnt used in falcons current metagame, as there are almost always better options.

The only times falcon punch is usable, is to punish a missed rest, and a shattered shield.

All moves take prediction to land... Playing falcon is a risk in its self.

Zeallyx · May 5, 2009

Psychoace said:
All moves take prediction to land... Playing falcon is a risk in its self.

No. that is incorrect.
A safe but efficient falcon is the best falcon.

(I will edit in my respondse to you, t3h n00b, later

).

Psychoace · May 6, 2009

No that is your opinion look at ally. Not everyone plays the same, that's what helps the metagame.

t3h n00b · May 6, 2009

Ok, I think Falcon Punch has pretty much been covered- everyone knows that it isn't a generally useful move and shouldn't be used often. *tries Iwan's thing* I'll update the OP, the next move is nair (if anyone else is up now

).

LuLLo · May 6, 2009

Heard you Iwan, gonna try the next time I'm Brawling

.

Now, on N-air, I like this move very much for the obvious reasons, the combo's it provides, the multi-hit for punishing shield-dropping and badly timed airdodges. I also like to use this move as a ledgehop more than U-air, since it sets up better situations than the U-air imo.
I have once landed a sexy full-hop N-air, opponent airdodge and pivot grab afterwards in the beginning of a match. After that it was 3-stock.

Zeallyx · May 6, 2009

Psychoace said:
No that is your opinion look at ally. Not everyone plays the same, that's what helps the metagame.

No thats not my opinion, thats a fact..

prediction means starting your move before the attack or achtion to punish from your opponent takes place.

No one needs prediction to punish a falcon punch, for example. :pimp:

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