Wario's Week 3 Matchup: Falco

Collective of Bears · May 10, 2009

Don't get grabbed. Simple as that. If you can avoid getting CG spiked, Wario murderfies Falco to no end. Wario dominates the air, and the bike offers rather decent defense against his lasers. You're going to want to stay airborne as long as possible here, since Falco can't really do much to Wario there.

Discuss.

Padô · May 10, 2009

So about Falco...
As usual we can camp him all day long, BUT, his laser will be damaging us a little, his CG is a hard thing to put up with too, but we can easily bike his spike...
As Blitz said, don't get grabbed, we should just ban FD, and abuse the platforms, your bite get Falcos ilusion (smells like gimp, dont do this if you got no bike), our fair will be f***** annoying to his UpB too.

We can't forget we got a CG on falco too, although it's not tested yet or proven, maybe it could be useful.

Small Advantage like 60-40 or 55-45 because of the lazors and CG

Nexus Bond · May 10, 2009

Wario isn't invincible in the air. Falco's vertical aerial acceleration and fast aerials isn't something to be trifled with.

Waymas · May 10, 2009

just avoid the cg and be patient with the lazor spam, bite works also.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · May 11, 2009

Better yet, don't worry about falco, your likely to never face him in a major tourney these days xD

If you ever do, as mentioned above, avoid cg. CG is really nothing to ever really worry about these days. You get grabbed you now pretty much guranteed to be at midpercents 50-60%, 60-70 if the tech chase is successful. Apart from that we still need to get well over 100% to kill wario. I'm not entirely sure on the percents, but with good DI and momentum canceling 150% at most I think with fresh upsmash.

I doubt the match-up is that sizeable in wario's favor of 60-40.

Falco does have problems trying to hit wario out of the aerials, but lasers cripple the air game a bit. With SHDL/SHL your looking at a wario getting hit out of the air a lot. That will put wario on the ground, espically if you get it by both lasers of SHDL, leading to grabs, jabs, SH Dair or ftilt a lot of the time.

Just like Falco cannot do much to wario in the air, wario has problems against falco when grounded, falco just plays better on the ground then wario does. The bike shouldn't be too much of a problem. A giant thing like that means we can time an attack to hit wario out of hit. And if not, just shield. Falco also has a pretty good Glide Toss and can use the wheel to some advantage while blocking any throws wario would use with them.

If I had to give a match-up number I would say 45-55 to someone or maybe just 50-50. 55-45 wario in the end I would say probably because of the CG wario has, but probably wont' amount to much as I was told by Phantom X that it was a difficult CG requiring turning and buffering.

~ Gheb ~ · May 11, 2009

Doesn't that dthrow CG work against Falco? If so, Wario certainly wins.

Otherwise Falco has a slight advantage. Wario can't really approach him...his utilt (and possibly SH Nair) beats your dair and all other aerial approaches and his jabs + ftilt dominate you on the ground. Not getting grabbed is entirely possible but good Falcos won't go too much for it when they see that they won't get one so don't get your hopes off ... little things like these are more skill based and depend more on the impatience of the Falco player. If he plays stricktly with laser camping + utilt + jabs/ftilt it's very hard to get close to him...especially when he camps under platforms.

Wario has some good stages for sure making it more even...I'd avoid Battlefield since the platforms are terrible for Wario...Falco can safely attack you from underneath the platforms with utilts and SH Nairs and due to his lasers you have to stay in the air or on the platforms. Lylat, Rainbow Cruise, Brinstart and Pokemon Stadium 1 are the best choices although only Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar really turn it into Warios favour...Falco can camp on Lylat similar to how he'd camp on BF so it's actually not that good and most Falcos tend to naturally ban Rainbow Cruise (from my experience). Ban jungle japes if it's legal otherwise ban Battlefield.

Overall (without the CG): 55/45 Falco
With the CG: Sound advantage for Wario

Corrupted · May 11, 2009

The CG is easy to do. And grab has easy guarenteed set-ups. It gets him up to 120 don't forget.

Ace55 · May 11, 2009

So say you've got FD, BF, Lylat, YI and SV as neutrals. Strike FD and BF? YI doesn't seem like such a great match up against Falco either with all the camping under the platform. SV seems good but they would probably strike that. I'm not sure how the Wario/ Falco matchup is perceived on Lylat nowadays.

What to strike against Falco?

bassem6 · May 11, 2009

I'd strike fd and bf and maybe YI.

smashkng · May 11, 2009

But Falco has insane problems KOing Wario if he doesn't KO with chain spike which rarely happens so and Wario is able to early kill Falco so it's Wario's advantage.

Corrupted · May 11, 2009

Don't get too cocky though, silent laser leads to a lot of stuff.

MorphedChaos · May 11, 2009

Let him camp you with lasers until your at around 40% so he can't CG you, or even if he does CG you, Bike from down low and recover. Once you get him to 40%, get him in a grab, get him up to around 92%, then Fsmash him out of the grab for a KO.

He can wall you a little with Bairs though, which gets annoying, but Chomp beats all of his other aerials.

ssbbFICTION · May 14, 2009

55-45 falco

BMX · May 15, 2009

Camp him the beginning of the match and when you are at 0%. CG will f up Warios pretty badly. Once that damage is over 30, begin the roast of FLAKKY!

FattyFatFatso · May 15, 2009

It would be pretty even in a Falco match. Although he has a difficult time killing Wario, half of his aerial arsenal can match up to Wario's, namely B-air and U-air. I have been surprise killed by these a few times at 110% The problem comes with campy Falcos that force an approach but at the same time limit aerial maneuverability. His U-smash and U-tilt can easily challenge approaches from the air as well. The Falco chaingrab is nothing to worry about, it is what the Falco plans to do after the initial damage. I play two Falcos with radically different strategies. One camps with lasers and the other challenges my aerial game with N-airs and B-airs. The reason why Wario has a slight advantage to this matchup is because he can space better. Spacing and patience is key to defeating Falcos moves.

BMX · May 15, 2009

I agree. I don't face good Falcos, so I wouldn't know. They do die incredibly early and with Fsmash, Clap, and the DOUCHE is sufficent to end a Falco at 100%.

Padô · May 15, 2009

55-45 falco is a big bag of bull**** really since we got the CG

omegablackmage · May 17, 2009

already wrote this stuff up, so if some stuff is reapeated.... don't hurt me!

i have a decent amount of exp vs falco, so i'll throw in what i know.

lasers are very annoying as we all know, but you are very capable of air dodging through them to start covering some ground. When you get next to him you have to be very careful not to get caught by even one laser or you will get grabbed, i've found that getting behind him where he's gunna land and waiting with a bite works well. If stay in front and shield, wait for the first two jabs after he lands, and shield grab inbetween jab 2 and 3 of the combo.

Falco doesn't move very quickly through the air at all, so i've found that any time he tries to approach with a move from below or above, its very easy to move right around and counterattack.

for edgeguarding, the best i've come up with as right when they can phantasm to either the ledge or the stage, i run off the level and then see what they do. If they go low, i try to snap to the ledge for the hog (rare, they will usually not risk this). If they go for the stage i immediately dj and air dodge back on to the level, trying to land where they are gunna land and either fsmash or grab to fthrow them back out. Of course, if they cancel their phantasm right, this messes your whole plan up ha ha.

Uptilt is ANNOYING. It seems to outprioritize all of your aerial approaches, so make sure you watch out for this move. Airdodging through it does work, but they can bait that if you aren't careful.

Grabs suck, as we all know. They can grab to like low 40's before they have to dair you, and if your offstage im pretty sure you have to jump before you bike otherwise the bike is too slow and you die. If you jump and bike away from the stage, i don't think they can reach you if you airdodge at the right time etc. Grabs should never kill you, just rack up a lot of damage.

Im sure im forgetting stuff, but thats what i've found as of now.

LocoCoco · May 17, 2009

be campy to annoy him into attacking, make sure ur spaced well, and avoid the chaingrab, Bair, and Fsmash (deceiving hitbox)

FattyFatFatso · May 18, 2009

U-tilt and N-air seem to cancel your D-air very easily. Beware of campy falcos that double laser and then jump to N-air to cancel your approach.

BMX · May 18, 2009

I just allow them to laser me when I camp them.

That makes the CG ineffetive and go for the kill.

FattyFatFatso · May 19, 2009

45-50 damage is damage either way. Just getting it from lasers prevents being in a bad situation. The point here is that Falcos use lasers and N-airs and U-tilts to prevent Wario approaches from the air. If warios are forced to the ground they will lose against falcos. If they get hit by the lasers in the air, they lose mobility and can be punished. Lasers also throw off the rhythm of warios game. If Warios airdodge the lasers they have to space correctly, and if it is a campy falco, he will just forward-B to the other side of the stage and repeat. Overall it is a very annoying game that has to be played patiently. Perhaps instead of jumping into the air immediately, a Wario can short hop through the lasers until he is about mid range with falco and then approach with aerials?

Corrupted · May 19, 2009

His nair is nothing to worry about. The lasers are more of a distraction when you get used to handling them. But his jab walls you on the ground and bair does the same in the air.

Few tips on handling the lasers:
Walking and powersheilding is nice at mid/long distance. Sh airdodge is better when you get up close. Don't airdodge if you don't have to. Bite is the best anti-phantasm move in the game. Don't appoache on the ground. Try to keep your second jump if you can, it makes you alot less predictable, and you want to stay low to punish the phantasm. Learn at what distance you will powersheild a laser when landing if you hold sheild (counting 2 frames landing lag).

aggressive edgeguarding plz

Collective of Bears · May 19, 2009

The matchup is already two days behind schedule, sorry 'bout that. I'll have it up tonight or tomorrow.

Nefarious B · May 19, 2009

I don't think bite grabs him out of phantasm, unless it's at the end.

FattyFatFatso · May 19, 2009

It wont grab him if he is already in the attack animation, only at the end or the startup if you are right next to him.

Beetle Juice · May 19, 2009

falco outzones wario

wario has to bait and punish (which he is good at), but wario can't do that if falco is constantly keeping his distance. But not all falcos are campy, some will approach to a certain distance if wario decides to camp.

imo, there is no benefit into "air camp" vs falco and wario becomes limited in his options.

Lasers stops straight foward arial approach (and keeps it grounded), up tilt stops warios dair so he will be using that from the top sparingly, which wario will be using the duck and dive method to the threw, mainly from behind him.

now when wario goes CQC, he likes to stay there. He will dair ,grab, bite, or any other arial to keep you in the air, now wario can beat the **** out of him when he reads falco right. Each hit from wario counts and if wario misses or makes a mistake, falco will restart his spacing and is back to square one for wario.

Stage wise I believe falco has the majority of neutral stages. Both characters have good platform stages; falco has lylat to mess up wario air game and stops his on top approachs and wario has norfair to stop falcos laser game and keep him off the ground.

wario gimps falco better and kills falco better though, but falco racks up faster damage then wario so even with that it makes up for each others weakness for this matchup (not really a weakness, just couldnt find the word for it)

both their smashes are punishable, I've taken stocks off by baiting warios front smash (got grabs too)

but i think its 55-45 falcos favor I'm not tying to be bias because i think wario is a incredible character just pulling out basic details you can argue about if you want i don't mind =)

Collective of Bears · May 20, 2009

OK, before I move the matchup on, I want to know the numbers. 55:45 sound fair?

MorphedChaos · May 20, 2009

60:40, the CG is just too good, and Falco has an amazingly hard time killing us.

BMX · May 20, 2009

I believe that Falco is too predictable. He has his lasers, but once that damage is racked, a good Wario is hard to kill, meanwhile Wario can kill a good Flakky early. The CG is useless after 35%, and from there, Wario will have little trouble getting close to Falco and racking damge. Get a Falco offstage, edgeguard, and predict that the Falco will Phantasm to the stage, then Down-B. I always land it.

Gichan · May 20, 2009

But still, why is it in Wario's favour? The early kills? Many Warios, including myself, have a veyr hard time against Falco, those lasers are ridiculous, and the cg is stupid, if one is not careful, that is a stock. Thing is, thuis matchup should be even, due to the facts that the falco main posted. We kil earlier, they rack up damage like no tomorrow.

If you don't get the first stock, it is going to be an uphill battle.

Beetle Juice · May 20, 2009

I agree with 55-45 falco's favor
Wario doesn't beat falco bad and vice versa but falco has the stage control.

stnapknah · May 21, 2009

Gichan said:
But still, why is it in Wario's favour? The early kills? Many Warios, including myself, have a veyr hard time against Falco, those lasers are ridiculous, and the cg is stupid, if one is not careful, that is a stock. Thing is, thuis matchup should be even, due to the facts that the falco main posted. We kil earlier, they rack up damage like no tomorrow.

If you don't get the first stock, it is going to be an uphill battle.

the cg wario has on falco was not released until recently. if you don't recall, it's around 50-115ish. The cg must be stale at 72%, but this does not matter if you grab him at 50%, since you will get in about 3 grabs before he hits 72%. All in all, nobody used to know/use this and yes, the match-up was slightly in falcos favor. However, if ppl actually start using this, the matchup will be in warios favor, no questions asked. You basically have to deal a little more than 150% damage total in the match (50% each stock), and let the cg and kill moves handle the rest. Also, wario can easily get grabs, and if he does this to 1 or 2 of falcos stocks, he's in very good shape.

Collective of Bears · May 21, 2009

Ugh... This matchup is soooo ridiculous. The whole board is split between who's got the advantage. Well, rather than try to pick a winning side myself, I'm going to keep this open until Memorial Day, and hopefully we can get it settled by then. That sound fair?

Padô · May 21, 2009

Fair enough

PhantomX · May 21, 2009

I always call this even. The CG hasn't started to be applied yet, so it doesn't merit inclusion. Theorycraft indicates it would give us the advantage, though.

Beetle Juice · May 21, 2009

I agree until memorial.

Now about warios chaingrab, is it only specific %'s

MorphedChaos · May 22, 2009

Yes, 50 to 120ish%, at 73, the throw need to be diminished. We can Fthrow when your at around the 120% mark for another 12% or Fsmash you for a kill maybe.

Gichan · May 22, 2009

Man, that cg pisses me off, it is pretty hard to do.

And the worst part is, you can't practice it on traning mode as the move needs to be stale...

Pierce7d · May 22, 2009

Eh, I don't think that Wario's chaingrab significantly

Also, don't forget that Falco can use retreating deflector to offset an aerial approach by Wario.
Also, Falco outboxes Wario tremendously. At point blank, Falco is devestatingly effective. Have you looked at the frames on that monster? Frame 2 jab. Spot dodge is invincible from frames 2 to 20 and is done on 22. That means Falco can spot dodge and jab, and he'll be open one frame before the spot dodge, and a total of three before you're eating a jab. Trying to shield grab the jab is highly unreliable, and he can always cancel it into a grab. Both of his rolls are of higher class, and his dash attack is also extremely good for combating aerials. Falco's CAN kill relatively well with Fsmashed, and if you get hit off the bike, Falco can edgeguard reasonably well. I find killing Falco with any character is the hardest part, and usually have to do it with an offstage aerial (aggressive edgeguarding is good here). Landing a smash on a careful Falco is harder than it sounds.

Ftilt, Dash attack, Utilt, and Usmash all are relatively anti-aerial, and fsmash traps are under-estimated here. Furthermore, grabbing Falco with Wario won't be easy, ESPECIALLY if Falco doesn't want to get grabbed. I believe Wario has a standard frame 6 grab, and I believe grab armor is three frames. That means you have a TINY window to grab a Falco in terms of punishing spot dodge, and it's even smaller if he spot-dodges twice in a row.

I think this one is in Falco's favor, 55-45, or 60-40. Hunting a clever Falco without Falchion is stupidly hard. Even MK has problems with it.

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