Wario's Week 6 Matchup: Mr. Game and Watch

... ****. Again, I haven't really got a lot of experience in this matchup, so I've nothing to say.

Discuss?

Just get PhantomX do do a big write-up since he plays with hylian all the time

Ask PhantomX, hes your man. It is a pretty even match though from the looks of things.

OMG... but I'm lazy D:

Phantom, think my grasp of the matchup is good enough? in my guide that is.

I have NO idea.. none at all.. i dont fight any gnw at all.

SDI the turtle xD
Bair helps quite a bit I find because of the range
Beware when using fully charged waft, try to get rid of that before that happens or you might risk killing yourself if you're unsafe about it and he uses upB/uair
Ftilt alot, it outranges his Dtilt
That's the extent of my knowledge

**** guys, PhantomX this matchup is awaiting your knowledge!

Wow. No G&Ws here. Wait...

Slik, let's play! I need match-up expierience!

for some reason, even though I play G&W, I struggle vs G&W. and sure I'll give you practice BMX




Also

SlikVik05 (2:59:46 PM): fighting G&W
SlikVik05 (3:00:09 PM): gimme your take on it
juanxalda10 (3:00:22 PM): What about it in particular?
SlikVik05 (3:00:42 PM): in general how do you approach it
juanxalda10 (3:02:51 PM): I approach it kind of like Marth
juanxalda10 (3:03:04 PM): with less Bite
juanxalda10 (3:03:41 PM): then again i approach marth differently than many
juanxalda10 (3:03:42 PM): haha
juanxalda10 (3:03:48 PM): i don't always try to get him above me
juanxalda10 (3:04:02 PM): basically you need to be very cautious of his nair
juanxalda10 (3:04:10 PM): avoid kill moves like hte plague
juanxalda10 (3:04:19 PM): fair poking is pretty good agains gw
juanxalda10 (3:04:25 PM): as is nair oos
juanxalda10 (3:04:28 PM): if you're close
SlikVik05 (3:04:32 PM): i basically poke and grab **** marth
juanxalda10 (3:04:34 PM): a lot of grabbing
juanxalda10 (3:04:40 PM): yeah
juanxalda10 (3:04:42 PM): same goes for gw
juanxalda10 (3:04:47 PM): save 1 or 2 kill moves til 120
juanxalda10 (3:04:50 PM): and then GW will die
juanxalda10 (3:05:04 PM): if he tries to just brickwall with nair, you can upangled ftilt
juanxalda10 (3:05:36 PM): is there anything in particular your'e struggling with? it's easier to help with specific situations
juanxalda10 (3:10:13 PM): The most important thing of all is just learning to space his kill moves
juanxalda10 (3:10:25 PM): Hylian would never kill me until he started doing that ******** bair cancelling
juanxalda10 (3:10:34 PM): which mindgames the hell out of me
juanxalda10 (3:10:34 PM): lol
juanxalda10 (3:11:21 PM): aside from his smashes, only thing you have to worry about is fair
juanxalda10 (3:11:26 PM): which only kills if tippered
juanxalda10 (3:11:37 PM): don't try to punish his upsmash with wario
juanxalda10 (3:11:47 PM): unless you're right next to him and you shieldgrab it
juanxalda10 (3:12:17 PM): also, gw is one of the few charas i won't fool around too much offstage vs
SlikVik05 (3:12:19 PM): keep talking. im playing but im gonna save the convo
juanxalda10 (3:12:34 PM): b/c if he gets you below stage level it's very very hard to recover
juanxalda10 (3:13:04 PM): you can try to upair the key, but i personally find it risky and usually end up losing to it
juanxalda10 (3:13:11 PM): i prefer to upair them when they're on the ground
juanxalda10 (3:13:15 PM): or trying a bair or something
juanxalda10 (3:13:21 PM): fsmash is great for killing on landing frames
juanxalda10 (3:13:28 PM): your non angled ftilt beats his dtilt
juanxalda10 (3:16:15 PM): that's all thet ips i really have
juanxalda10 (3:16:57 PM): bike edgeguarding only works on him if he's recovering low, b/c if he recovers high he can just key through it

I have SOOOOOO much experience here. Probably like 30% of my total games are against G&W.

Live in your shield on the ground. You can shield turtle and fishbowl. Grab a lot.

DON'T bite. There's no time it's appropriate. A good G&W shouldn't roll or spot-dodge. He'll up-B out of his shield.
Only air-dodge on reaction. Nair/Bair outlasts it.

NO ledge games. You cannot beat him. Under the ledge he can do anything to your bike. He can even do it with his own recovery. You cannot gimp him.
The only trick here is if he doesn't sweet-spot on the way up you can grab-gimp him like Snake.

Clap ALL THE TIME. If you're moving towards him, there is no reason do anything else if you're both in the air. There's some tricky timing, but basically it beats everything he has.

Stay below him. Dair is no problem if you clap, up-tilt, or for you daring ones, up-smash! All of these can be done on reaction. Heck, just shield it and capitalize! Careful, though, it hits twice when he lands.

If he charges his up-smash, don't try to do anything. At all. Stay away.

Killing him is the hard part. He'll live about 20% longer than you think because of Bucket Braking. F-smash around 110% and f-tilt around 120%. Clap should be too stale to kill, haha.
Putting up a wall with f-tilts works pretty well.

DO NOT SPOT DODGE. All his smashes out-last it.

Of course tech his d-throw. If you don't, he can running up-smash your roll.

Ban FD (or Norfair if it's legal). Take him to Brinstar, then Frigrate.

50:50 solidly. Wario and G&W strengths are too similar.

Brown Paper Sack said:

NO ledge games. You cannot beat him. Under the ledge he can do anything to your bike. He can even do it with his own recovery. You cannot gimp him.
The only trick here is if he doesn't sweet-spot on the way up you can grab-gimp him like Snake.

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Actually if he's recovering from below, you can just grab the ledge right before he upbs and punish(waft/uair/etc) as he goes above you onto the stage.

another note: G&W also has a little sitdown animation if he just barely gets onto the stage with ample time to punish

slikvik said:

Actually if he's recovering from below, you can just grab the ledge right before he upbs and punish(waft/uair/etc) as he goes above you onto the stage.

another note: G&W also has a little sitdown animation if he just barely gets onto the stage with ample time to punish

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Yes, but it's basically impossible for that lag to be created. They just have to do an aerial or an airdodge.
If you grab the ledge, he can just cancel up-B and footstool you for an even safer recovery.

On stages with slanted edges (Yoshi's Island, Pictochat), there's a glitch below 100% where he can do ANYTHING immediately off hanging off the ledge. Like, up-smash or pivot forward-smash. While they're not bad stages for the match-up, be aware.

BTW, I play G&W, too.

..........

Masky said:

usmash is punishable

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Sure it is but it beats all off our aerials, if the oponnent is usmashing doesnt mean you should leave the center platform just be aware of it...

Masky said:

usmash is punishable

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It comes out immediately. It's got a crazy long-lasting hitbox.
Even if you think you know how big it is, it's bigger. I've been staged spiked by it from hanging on the ledge.
It doesn't have enough cool down to be punished by anything worthwhile. You COULD super-armor through it, or you could bite (it can actually beat bite from the front at max range), but there's just no reason to. The risk is not worth the reward.

D-air cannot punch through his N-air so don't approach from above too often. Can B-air beat his cinder block? Can we short hop over his manhole?

You can SH over his dtilt, but it has a pretty crazy vertical range... just learn that. Bair doesn't beat out his fair, but our fair comes out faster, so if you get him offstage facing you you can peg em with 2-3 fairs before they fall below stage level.

Nice. Why no more tips Phantom? I have to admit, G&W is one of my least favorite matchups.

B/c I've been busy and have little motivation to make extensive write ups, lol.

Crap. I keep forgetting about this. Oh well. I'm not gonna be on tomorrow, so I'm gonna give it until Sunday since we've got some pretty juicy stuff already, and all we need are some numbers (And maybe even a PX writeup =O).

I think this is actually a really even match up. Both characters kill relatively early and some of the aerials trade hits don't they?
Eh.
Just have PhantomX write something and call it a day haha.

Game and Watches that run away and spam nair are very annoying, NOJ learned how to fight wario i had a hard *** time punishing him, that is until he gave me the one free bair which i SDI'd and wafted him <3. i dont know to think about this matchup but it's really annoying.

i used to be scared ****less of this match up, until i beat UTD Zac in a set last week. i honestly pulled it out of my ***(literally, got like 6 half waft kills lol)

the way i played this match-up is to play careful, because one mistake or one time you get too aggressive, g&w can punish you hard for it. also, g&w's nair is a ****ing ***** in this match-up. it beats pretty much all of your moves, so be careful of that. whenever the g&w bairs, SDI out and punish accordingly.

If GWs start spamming nair I approach with walking ftilts, or bait them and then fair poke or dair into ****.

Played a beast Gdub yesterday and I got wrecked, properly spaced Bairs are a pain and Nair sucks when I'm trying to land then the juggling begins. And as BPS said, that Usmash is ridiculous. I got a bunch of waft kills still though but still lost sets. It was so bad I had to go wolf to win comfortably, think I might just need A LOT of matchup practice.

Yeah. Wario vs. Gdumb is one of those matchups where you get severely assraped until you figure it out.

we'll im beating decent GnW's time to see if i can beat good ones now

How do you SDI the bair?

I would like a rediscuss on G&W.

The current stand on the given pros either character has are kind of... lame.

Multiple disadvantages Wario has are given, yet the only real thing Wario seems to have on G&W is that 'he kills G&W really early'.

That would make the Ike matchup even as well. I really feel G&W has a clear advantage.

Yes I did just revive and old thread, deal with it.

EDIT: As to why G&W has an advantage.

Wario has no approach, G&W's upB and Nair beat all of his aerials, usually there is no worry there, since Wario doesn't have to approach in the first place.

However, how can Wario really deal with G&W's approach? His OoS options do not punish a well spaced Turtle, and upB really hands Wario's arse back at him when he tries to punish.

Wario kills G&W early, G&W kills Wario early. Nothing to see there. Wario's uair is a better killer than any of G&W's moves, yes, but G&W has enough kill setups on Wario to even up on that level.

G&W's Nair is god in this matchup. Yes, upangled ftilt beats it. Big deal. If you're actually going to stay grounded in order to beat Nairs you're just going to get *****.

Bite is ineffective, almost near useless. G&W is not the character to spotdodge, and he shouldn't feel the need to shield in this matchup. Almost all of his moves outrange it, so there's nothing on that as well.

I cannot stress G&W's uair enough. It completely destroys any spacing Wario may have. Once Wario is hit by the wind, he's above G&W. Wario doesn't like to be above G&W.

Honestly, where does he like to be?

Really, this discussion did not feature these points too thoroughly. If it featured any real point at all.

a campy gnw is a problem, one that spams up b can be ***** easy. bait all dai

GW has ONE kill setup, that's it, and it's nair (when it pulls you in as you're hitting the ground) > dsmash. Aside from that he has nothing. Also, our upangled ftilt beats out nair as does a well spaced upair... besides, air doesn't even matter all that much, we're gonna be grab ****** you all game.

Upair is also inconsequential in this matchup b/c Wario can avoid it just by DIing left and right :\

wario can move around GnW's attacks really easy

PhantomX said:

GW has ONE kill setup, that's it, and it's nair (when it pulls you in as you're hitting the ground) > dsmash. Aside from that he has nothing. Also, our upangled ftilt beats out nair as does a well spaced upair... besides, air doesn't even matter all that much, we're gonna be grab ****** you all game.

Upair is also inconsequential in this matchup b/c Wario can avoid it just by DIing left and right :\

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I can't believe his up air is problematic, G&W is slower than Wario in the air, and he hasn't so fast ground speed.

So what is it. Get the lead and camp for the rest of the match? G&W is very light so we kill him pretty early when hitting from edges of stages (Bucket is useless when hit from close to the blast line).
And remember, his bair can be SDIed out of.

Lord Chair said:

I would like a rediscuss on G&W.

The current stand on the given pros either character has are kind of... lame.

Multiple disadvantages Wario has are given, yet the only real thing Wario seems to have on G&W is that 'he kills G&W really early'.

That would make the Ike matchup even as well. I really feel G&W has a clear advantage.

Yes I did just revive and old thread, deal with it.

EDIT: As to why G&W has an advantage.

Wario has no approach, G&W's upB and Nair beat all of his aerials, usually there is no worry there, since Wario doesn't have to approach in the first place.

However, how can Wario really deal with G&W's approach? His OoS options do not punish a well spaced Turtle, and upB really hands Wario's arse back at him when he tries to punish.

Wario kills G&W early, G&W kills Wario early. Nothing to see there. Wario's uair is a better killer than any of G&W's moves, yes, but G&W has enough kill setups on Wario to even up on that level.

G&W's Nair is god in this matchup. Yes, upangled ftilt beats it. Big deal. If you're actually going to stay grounded in order to beat Nairs you're just going to get *****.

Bite is ineffective, almost near useless. G&W is not the character to spotdodge, and he shouldn't feel the need to shield in this matchup. Almost all of his moves outrange it, so there's nothing on that as well.

I cannot stress G&W's uair enough. It completely destroys any spacing Wario may have. Once Wario is hit by the wind, he's above G&W. Wario doesn't like to be above G&W.

Honestly, where does he like to be?

Really, this discussion did not feature these points too thoroughly. If it featured any real point at all.

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sry but wario uses air n then he fsmash but he no get hit even if he get hit so it still kill gaw at 50% if he no bucket brake but gaw all sucks so no bucket brake ever : D :D hope it helps

have a fineday

PhantomX said:

GW has ONE kill setup, that's it, and it's nair (when it pulls you in as you're hitting the ground) > dsmash. Aside from that he has nothing. Also, our upangled ftilt beats out nair as does a well spaced upair... besides, air doesn't even matter all that much, we're gonna be grab ****** you all game.

Upair is also inconsequential in this matchup b/c Wario can avoid it just by DIing left and right :\

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Nair is a kill setup, Fair just kills. Angled ftilts are kinda... why are you punishing with ftilt if you might as well just fsmash through it with the same 'ease'?

I don't really understand what grab ****** G&W's spacing game means. In my 9 hours straight of playing against kaak I'm having a tough time getting the time to grab. Grabbing bair? Neh. Grabbing Nair? Sure, but why would G&W resort to Nair if you're grounded?

I can't believe his up air is problematic, G&W is slower than Wario in the air, and he hasn't so fast ground speed.

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G&W has 0 risk in Uairing while landing, while it messes up Wario's spacing pretty bad.

So what is it. Get the lead and camp for the rest of the match?

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What do you suggest to camp G&W with?

G&W is very light so we kill him pretty early when hitting from edges of stages (Bucket is useless when hit from close to the blast line).

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Really, such an argument is only valid if you're playing a character that can consistently hit with unstaled, easy to land killing moves. Uair is stale in this match-up, leaving you with Waft, which is decent, and an impossible-to-land fsmash. Yes, landing fsmash against G&W shouldn't be possible.

And remember, his bair can be SDIed out of.

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The only thing that does is resetting the situation.

SDI out of G&W's bair can win you the match. SDI out of nair is a lot harder and nearly impossible.

Fart's are your best kill move against him. Running away is golden, get good at it.

Learn to space ftilt and this matchup is a little easier.

It's hard for G&W to time releasing a charged UpSmash if you are coming at him from above with dair. If the G&W has perfect timing he'll land it, but I find I can't land it that often. Wario's air mobility is too much =/

Lord Chair said:

Nair is a kill setup, Fair just kills. Angled ftilts are kinda... why are you punishing with ftilt if you might as well just fsmash through it with the same 'ease'?

I don't really understand what grab ****** G&W's spacing game means. In my 9 hours straight of playing against kaak I'm having a tough time getting the time to grab. Grabbing bair? Neh. Grabbing Nair? Sure, but why would G&W resort to Nair if you're grounded?

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You can grab G&W in between his bair if he spaces it wrong. Ftilt is your longest ranged attack and beats out a couple of G&W attacks. It's also relatively safe.

G&W has 0 risk in Uairing while landing, while it messes up Wario's spacing pretty bad.

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Care to explain how Uair messes up his spacing?

Really, such an argument is only valid if you're playing a character that can consistently hit with unstaled, easy to land killing moves. Uair is stale in this match-up, leaving you with Waft, which is decent, and an impossible-to-land fsmash. Yes, landing fsmash against G&W shouldn't be possible.

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Ftilt ?

AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:

You can grab G&W in between his bair if he spaces it wrong. Ftilt is your longest ranged attack and beats out a couple of G&W attacks. It's also relatively safe.

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You can't expect a G&W to mess up his bair spacing that much.

Care to explain how Uair messes up his spacing?

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Wario gets popped up, Wario is high(er) up, Wario is vulnerable to Nair/further Uair harassing.

Ftilt ?

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Decent enough, doesn't kill until 130% (unless at the edge) and is fairly cumbersome to land.

Lord Chair said:

You can't expect a G&W to mess up his bair spacing that much.

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So I should assume the space it perfectly every time?

Wario gets popped up, Wario is high(er) up, Wario is vulnerable to Nair/further Uair harassing.

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That still doesn't explain how uair messing up Wario's spacing.

Decent enough, doesn't kill until 130% (unless at the edge) and is fairly cumbersome to land.

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It's easier to land ftilt than fsmash IMO.