Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread

Nefarious B said:

We CG him, he can't against us.

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he still does 16% if he bthrows, and 8% + tech chase.

Nefarious B said:

He is a character very prone to sitting in his shield, which won't work well against our range

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lol, what can we do to someone's shield? WE CAN'T GRAB... |:

Nefarious B said:

no dash attack means we can spam that **** all day

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lol, his standing grab almost has the same range of the inside of the whip, if he ps's it on the run, he can shieldgrab it.

Nefarious B said:

He's kills us easily, but doesn't really have good options to set those kills up. Watch out for bair and you should be living to atleast 140 every time.

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yeah, but just like snake or wario, one mistake and you're dead at 100%


I'm not trying to pick on you nef, I just want some discussion going... d:

Nah man it's cool, I don't see point and counterpoint as picking on anyone, you're saying stuff that makes sense.

In my experience though, retreating side bs are safe, even on a DDD. He may be able to ftilt you for it, but that's pretty small punishment. And if you mix it up with uncharged shots and evasion DDD will have a hard time keeping up and dealing with all the **** you're throwing.

And I wouldn't say we can't grab, just know that you're going to hit with it. Stun shot is great for that, not only when it hits but it also is gonna make them shield or spotdodge (DDD won't jump to avoid it), pivot grab that ho

Seeing how we can rely more on our long ranged spacing moves, we won't be hopping around their heads like in other matchups, so utilt has never been as much of a problem for me. Snake has broken, jab length range in front and partly behind his head on his utilt, and waft is an aerial 60% killer. DDD's utilt is strong, but not godlike like those two options, and DDD also has fewer setups for his utilt than Snake or Wario do for their kills.

DDD's edgeguarding scares me a lot more than his typical utilt, which is why next time I play a competent DDD I'm going to try recovering onto the stage and avoiding the ledge completely.

I like this discussion a lot. D3 is one of my favorite matchups. I said a few things earlier in the thread that weren't seen as correct. Let me elaborate a bit!

The Waddles are pretty ineffective vs. ZSS, which allows us to camp him pretty hard if played right. Jabs on the Dees refresh moves. That is pretty sexy in and of itself.

That's especially true because even with our advantage, this is a match of patience. As Faded said, one mistake and you can die early. You need to space well, particularly at high percents. D3's grab range is pretty ridiculous, so watch out for that, too. Can someone confirm bair is safe on block? I'm not sure, but my gut says it isn't.

D3 is one of the easier characters for us to grab. The Paralyzer Gun is also more effective in this fight than in most. A lot of things that are normally weaknesses for ZSS will really shine in this match. The other thing that is pretty great vs D3 is Charby's buffered back airs, which are an incredible pressuring tool. Remember too that when D3 is recovering, he's vulnerable; you can hit him with an aerial at the height of his up+b. You'll probably finish good D3s a lot like this, because they will make it hard for you to hit them with fresh finishers at high percents, good ones anyway.

I mentioned it briefly earlier, but D3 has beast OOS options. Try very hard to avoid attacking his shield. You will get grabbed or worse. Also, do not underestimate his tech chase. D3 will be expecting you to roll toward the center of the stage; mix it up. Don't do what's expected and you can escape.

I have noticed when playing my friends ZSS
When I down throw him and then proceed to down throw him, due to my immense all I have to due is get close and I have already limited his options
one time I was able to rack up 50% on him in one tech chase

Does your friend know how to tech? 50% is a bit much, a good DDD can maybe get a dsmash off on you if you have any idea what you're doing, that's if they predict you right and you have plenty of options after the throw to stop them from doing that well.

I have been teaching him how to tech, he is getting a lot better at it. If I get him to killing %'s is down throw and then play the guessing game lol

Where will the up-tilt come?...... THERE!!!! lol

I prefer to call it D3's Victorytilt....

Anyway... now that I know how to tech, I fair much better. A good bit of the reason he got me to 50% was that I never knew he could tech chase me like that and I was not prepared.

a good d3 can force a lot of damage out of the d-throw, especially since teching is gaaarbage in this game. it's important to know how you can mix it up:

DI DOWN/TOWARDS:
you will hit the ground earlier, therefore landing right in front of d3, this allows you to tech/roll behind d3 at a greater distance, good if he dashes forward expecting you to fly further away.

NO DI:
you will hit the ground pretty far away from d3, and rolling/teching away is fairly safe unless they're dashing the entire time.

DI UP/TOWARDS:
this allows you to jump or down-b before even hitting the ground, great for just getting the hell out of there, but be careful, if he does the normal d3 cg, he will grab you out of your jump.


so you should try to decide before he throws what way you want to go:

does he tend to dash forward? DI down/towards and roll behind him.
does he tend to walk forward trying to predict/performs the normal cg? Don't DI and roll away
does he tend to run up and shield? DI up and jump outta there, reset.

This seems like an appropriate time to mention this: the dash attack lock talked about in the other thread works on King DeDeDe especially well. The chain starts at on or around 26%, whether Daz Attack is fresh or not. Once DeDeDe is off the stage, charge a down smash and he has very few options. If he jumps or immediately uses up+b, the dsmash will hit him. If he allows himself to fall, it's still a potential offstage juggle because his up+b is pretty punishable.

Also, King DeDeDe seems to be unique in that he remains in hitstun after landing in some circumstances so it can be hard for him to buffer shields. That's why this works so early.

So ya if daz lock is as **** as SFP seems to think, we might have a joke matchup against DDD. He's gonna be careful to shield too much because of our fat grabs, making him more vulnerable to dazrape, or if he takes to the air more he's out of his league anyways.

We shut down his options very well, which, after all, is what matchups are all about.

Hi Zamus mains! Zeldas started discussing what we and you can accomplish as a team and we´d really appreciate your help!

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7306582#post7306582

Well, personally, here's how I see the matchup of DDD vs ZSS:

In my opinion, this matchup is around 60:40 in our favour. Although this is in our favour, DDD does have some advantages over use. Granted, he can't chaingrab us, but even without his chaingrab his grab game is still great. DThrow can tech chase brilliantly, and BThrow does 16% damage in one go. Add in a pummel or two, and that's an easy 20% damage for them. In addition, there's also the fact that he lives **** near forever compared to us. His UTIlt, Bair, and to some exteent DSmash can kill us really early on, and we can't kill him as early because he's really heavy and is the best vertical KO survivor. Combined with DI and Bair momentum cancelling and he'll stay alive for ages.

Aside from his high survivability and good throw game, I personally think it's in our favour. He's a really big target, and his heavy weight allows us to combo him really well and get him up to high percentages in a pinch. And although he can't chaingrab us, we can chaingrab him, though I'm not sure up to what percent (could someone remind me please?), and since ZSS is pretty good at edgeguarding, we can knock him away enough to the point where he has to use his up B to recover. If it's close to the edge, he has to cancel it to sweetspot the ledge, and from there edgehogging him is a cinch. If he lands above you, when his super armour frames run out, we can use USmash or up B to hit him.

Oh, and by the way, here's a helpful tip. You know how often side B will be stale due to using it as a spacing tool? Here's something worth noting down: hitting Waddle Dees and Waddle Doos will refresh stale moves. And you can be sure that King Dedede will be throwing plenty of them in this matchup, so if he does, simply use your neutral A combo on the Waddles. This works even better because all three hits of her neutral A combo count as separate moves in the stale move queue.

For those reasons, I think that this is 60:40 in our favour.

heh I don't care if side B stales, it still does damage and fear, thats all I need it for I can switch to something like b-air, or u-air, or f-air for the kill.

Yeah he still has some good moves I agree with your assesment mostly.

has anyone ever gotten a pointed downwards ftilt kill?


i did it to my friend on norfair

it made me lol so hard

shlike said:

has anyone ever gotten a pointed downwards ftilt kill?


i did it to my friend on norfair

it made me lol so hard

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What damage was he at 300%?

170%

we were on the platform closest to edge of the stage

everyone was like WTF SHE HAS GROUND KILL MOVES??

I said no and then proceeded to laugh

shlike said:

170%

we were on the platform closest to edge of the stage

everyone was like WTF SHE HAS GROUND KILL MOVES??

I said no and then proceeded to laugh

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f-smash kills lol.

You know norad, thats bait for Darkwater to come in here and start talking about fsmash again.

lol fsmash is sooo bad

sasook said:

You know norad, thats bait for Darkwater to come in here and start talking about fsmash again.

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roflmao

sasook said:

You know norad, thats bait for Darkwater to come in here and start talking about fsmash again.

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heh get wrecked

I'm for 60:40 in ZSS favor as well.
Our fat hurts us so bad in this matchup.

Ok i have something for you guys for the dedede vs zss discussion. I have played his match both ways dedede being my second and zss being my third. And every time i play this match it seems to be a test of patience, the more patient player wins, and a lot of times when i have played this match its gone to time. so basically the whole match is these two trying to chip at each other and trying to keep a lead.

dedede's big size makes it easier for zss to get at him, but dedede's bair and other moves over power zss and can put her off stage quick, I've only seen the chaingrab done on me once and that was faded image. the match up to me looks like 50 50 but i think could be slightly in zss's favor like 55 45.

like i said the more patient player wins

rofljont said:

Ok i have something for you guys for the dedede vs zss discussion. I have played his match both ways dedede being my second and zss being my third. And every time i play this match it seems to be a test of patience, the more patient player wins, and a lot of times when i have played this match its gone to time. so basically the whole match is these two trying to chip at each other and trying to keep a lead.

dedede's big size makes it easier for zss to get at him, but dedede's bair and other moves over power zss and can put her off stage quick, I've only seen the chaingrab done on me once and that was faded image. the match up to me looks like 50 50 but i think could be slightly in zss's favor like 55 45.

like i said the more patient player wins

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Thats the secret to playing brawl, shhhhhh, but yeah if you get over aggressive you will get torn up.

There are only a few decent D3's around, but a couple of them are power ranked in my state, so I'll give my opinion. Even though it might be repetitive to what's already been said. And the Dededes I fight are alts, not mains. And I'm kinda new to Zero Suit. And I don't have much credibility on this board yet.

I think our greatest advantages in this matchup are Dedede's large hitbox, the switch on CG-ability, and our ability to zone him. The hitbox on DDD is pretty self-explanatory; our attacks have quite some leeway in connecting. I find this helpful at low percents, since we can chain moves and close the survivability gap a little (especially in the air). Even more obvious is the chain-grab reversal, ie. the D3 is confused to why he's being CG'd for once. Then there's our zoning... like rofljont said, there is a bit of patience in this game, but when it comes to brickwalling, ZSS has him beat. Her side-B outranges D3's b-air. It's pretty easy to chase or retreat a defensive King Dedede imo. Also, our ledgeguarding game is a lot better.

Of course, a good Dedede (or one who's fought a decent ZSS before) isn't gonna get *****. His grabs still hurt, and you will get grabbed. Weight difference is gonna mean a gap in survivability... Dedede is gonna be around longer than ZSS. Our side-B is gonna get stale from our spacing, so horizontal KOs are a little more difficult (and D3 lives so long vertically!), while he'll have no problem killing us with his fresh u-tilts or the b-airs that get through.

I'm sure I'm forgetting something. I'll just edit this when/if I remember.

But overall,

IMO...

Zero 60:40 Dedede

DDD's recovery is very problematic for him, because of our boost jump and u-air beats his up B, flat out.

It's been a couple of weeks since the discussion for DDD started. Could we move onto somebody else, please? (Preferably discussing how good we are against Fox )

BTW, since we have an infintie against ROB which essentially translates to: DSmash = death, shouldn't it be more like 70:30 than 60:40?

mountain_tiger said:

It's been a couple of weeks since the discussion for DDD started. Could we move onto somebody else, please? (Preferably discussing how good we are against Fox )

BTW, since we have an infintie against ROB which essentially translates to: DSmash = death, shouldn't it be more like 70:30 than 60:40?

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That matchup ratio is old. A lot of them are.

mountain_tiger said:

It's been a couple of weeks since the discussion for DDD started. Could we move onto somebody else, please? (Preferably discussing how good we are against Fox )

BTW, since we have an infintie against ROB which essentially translates to: DSmash = death, shouldn't it be more like 70:30 than 60:40?

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Yeah but because the infinite actually takes effort and its rob specific and he is now B tier and we already beat him, I bet many people arn't going to actually learn it, but if they did yeah probably 70:30

mountain_tiger said:

It's been a couple of weeks since the discussion for DDD started. Could we move onto somebody else, please? (Preferably discussing how good we are against Fox )

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I don't think Fox is very easy personally. Aside from our 0-death, which you will never land on a good fox, it's pretty even. I would put it at 55-45 because of the minute chance that you take a whole stock off one dsmash, but realistically it's not gonna happen more than once a set.

Snakeee says dsmash chain aside, the matchup is in Fox's favor.

without dsmash chain i'd say either 55:45 or 60:40 Fox

With matchup discussions you have to assume that the dsmash will land or at least think that it COULD land. It might be hard, but a dsmash is a stock. The matchup is on ZSS' favor for discussion purposes, and is pretty close to even if you don't land the chain. Remember, when you discuss a matchup, human elements are off the table.

That doesn't mean I don't find Fox annoying, though. Without the chain, pretending it doesn't exist, it is barely in his favor, 45:55, not 40:60. That's too high. When you start the match throw two suit pieces away and do -not- let him get the last one.

Wait, are we on Fox yet? Or should I just stop there?

Supermodel From Paris said:

With matchup discussions you have to assume that the dsmash will land or at least think that it COULD land. It might be hard, but a dsmash is a stock. The matchup is on ZSS' favor for discussion purposes, and is pretty close to even if you don't land the chain. Remember, when you discuss a matchup, human elements are off the table.

That doesn't mean I don't find Fox annoying, though. Without the chain, pretending it doesn't exist, it is barely in his favor, 45:55, not 40:60. That's too high. When you start the match throw two suit pieces away and do -not- let him get the last one.

Wait, are we on Fox yet? Or should I just stop there?

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back to boring all I do is shield grab dedede then

Supermodel From Paris said:

With matchup discussions you have to assume that the dsmash will land or at least think that it COULD land. It might be hard, but a dsmash is a stock. The matchup is on ZSS' favor for discussion purposes, and is pretty close to even if you don't land the chain. Remember, when you discuss a matchup, human elements are off the table.

That doesn't mean I don't find Fox annoying, though. Without the chain, pretending it doesn't exist, it is barely in his favor, 45:55, not 40:60. That's too high. When you start the match throw two suit pieces away and do -not- let him get the last one.

Wait, are we on Fox yet? Or should I just stop there?

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I'm not talking about human elements though, not really. Fox, as a character, approaches fast enough, and in a manner (from above you) that makes it difficult to dsmash him.

And yeah call DDD 60-40 and be done with it.

DIDDY KONG


Old Information:

TheZeroSuit said:

From Orion's:

FoolyCoolyGamer said:

Diddy Kong to Zero Suit Samus is a somewhat even match, if not for the fact that ZSS's moves have more range than Diddy's. While Diddy can move swifter and combo easier, what he lacks is some great KO moves. Also, since he falls fast, it can be amazingly easy to just juggle him with uair, then finish with B air. Another disadvantage is that his recovery can be countered very easily. If he uses the rocket barrels to boost, I usually use flip jump out of kick to destroy the barrels and make him fall down to the bottom, or it'll spike him.

His dash attack can outbeat ZSS and hits faster, however, I find it easier to shield grab him since he has a bit of lag behind some of his moves, particularly his ftilt.

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Snakeee said:

One quick pointer is dash attack grab his bananas off the floor, and use your broken glide toss to throw them back at him
You can also down b footstool jump the banans as they're flying towards you...

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Alright, in particular I've noticed that a lot of discussion is focusing on who wins and how bad. This is not the point of a match-up discussion thread. We need to talk about HOW to win this match-up: what we have against our opponent, therefore exploiting the strengths and what our opponent has to beat us, therefore becoming aware of the weaknesses.

PLEASE, focus on the HOWS and WHYS to win. NOT the numbers.

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OK, so Diddy Kong is one that starts out feeling impossible and becomes more even as you learn the matchup. A few tips:

-Diddy Kong can glide toss your suit pieces. Get rid of two or be very careful because you do not want him to get a hold on them

- Diddy Kong needs his bananas to even begin to compete with your ground game, and his aerials do not compare at all. However, the bananas are a big deal and make approaching very hard. Taking control of these will help a lot. If you don't have control of the bananas or at least attempt to clean them up before approaching, this can get nasty fast.

- If the Diddy Kong you are facing has an amazing banana game and you just can't take control of them no matter what you try, the second best option is to just get rid of them. If you still can't do that, aerial approaches are the next best thing. SHAD+Buffered uair is awesome against Diddy Kongs that camp with bananas.

- As usual, you want to try to get Diddy Kong in the air. Dash Attack to buffered utilt or dtilt is a really good option. Uair>everything Diddy has in the air. With that said, Diddy Kong is not helpless in the air and if you're not careful you could get smacked in the face with a bair. I believe bair is his best kill move, as well, but it's slow. Your aerial game is better, but you need to learn how to use it.

- If you are getting ***** by bananas expect to get grabbed a lot. With that said, Diddy's grab range is not that good, and has some ending lag. Avoid and punish.

- ZSS has a really good banana game which you should take advantage of. There's a write-up I did here, if you're interested: http://zsstech.blogspot.com/2009/06/zss-tech-blog-002-banana-tech.html

- Never recover low. It's really easy to get owned by the peanut popper gun or a dropped banana. Dont' laugh, it could happen to you. Flipstool off bananas and peanuts for extra horizontal recovery if he tries to toss them for a gimp.

- Dash Lock (duh, I had to mention it) on Diddy starts at 26% and makes for a very easy edgehog if you can pull it off.

-Gimping Diddy is pretty easy. If he gets knocked below the stage, grab the ledge and when he releases his up+b, drop off and up+b into the stage again. (Thanks to Snakeee)

- Finally, practice this match-up any way you can. It's one that will absolutely **** you if you walk into a tourney and don't know how to handle it.

With that said, I do think this matchup is roughly even if you know the fight and are very patient with your approaches and are paying attention to what the field looks like.

Good CPs are Lylat, RC, Norfair. Ban FD and probably Smashville.

I am calling this 45:55 for Diddy, but it's stage dependent. A good stage can shift it to your favor.

probably the most important thing that can be said about this match-up, is that you NEED experience in order to even get close to balancing it out.

bananas are a huge change to the game, so you really need to know how to use them in a variety of situations. not just "lol glidetoss d-smash, durr".

imo this post sums it up pretty well:

AvaricePanda said:

Look at other character threads when they talk about the matchup. What do you usually find? "His bananas are annoying." "Seperate him from his bananas." "You have this awesome followup from a trip so use it."

It's really not convincing. They don't talk about specific banana situations, what most Diddy's do after a banana hits the opponents sheild, how to bait Diddy to get back his banana and punish, what to do if there's a banana on the platform above them, what to do if their throw hits Diddy's sheild, if their glide toss length is good enough to dribble, if it's best for their character to throw it back, throw it away, or camp with it, how to z-catch and instant banana glide toss while falling on the opponent's banana, etc, etc.

There's a LOT of things about banana control. But you usually don't see that in matchup discussions. You usually just see generic statements that those characters should get bananas and use them. You usually see, "Don't let Diddy control the stage with 2 bananas or you're screwed," without any mention of how he controls the stage, what he can do in a relatively safe position, and how you can get yourself out of the pressure.

I've played a couple of people who obviously know how to nullify bananas well, and they were all probably either Diddy mains or played a lot of Diddys. Granted, I don't believe that when opponents learn the anti-banana game that we're going to cripple as a character; we can still easily work on controlling bananas, because I notice that like 80% of the time when the opponent gets a Diddy's banana, the Diddy made a mistake.

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Im sorry but playing against computer diddy's and wifi, diddy's is useless. They can't do nearly the same kind of frame traps, and trip combos they can do offline.

Also incase I didn't mention it, when ZSS (and other fast rolling characters), trip on a nanner, we can immediately roll in the direction of the nanner and pick it up. This kinda owns diddy players who haven't seen this before, against an experienced diddy though, it will just make their trip wall game more difficult.

noradseven said:

Im sorry but playing against computer diddy's and wifi, diddy's is useless. They can't do nearly the same kind of frame traps, and trip combos they can do offline.

Also incase I didn't mention it, when ZSS (and other fast rolling characters), trip on a nanner, we can immediately roll in the direction of the nanner and pick it up. This kinda owns diddy players who haven't seen this before, against an experienced diddy though, it will just make their trip wall game more difficult.

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What. I said to play against them if you had to as a last resort to learn their fall speed and movement mechanics, not to learn the match-up at an explicit level. It's kind of a "duh" that CPU experience isn't much or anything at all.