Diddy Kong's Barrels of Matchups~ Character #3~ Luigi

DFEAR · Jun 19, 2009

Discuss Luigi. Input as MUCH info as needed + the following.

Both Characters Air Game Against Each Other:
Both Characters Ground Game Against Each Other:
Moves To Avoid and HOW to avoid them:
Diddy's Moves to Utilize In The Matchup:
Personal Strategies To Help With Matchup:
Overall Character Ratio:

Dekar173 · Jun 19, 2009

Eh whatever.

chimpact · Jun 19, 2009

Space your fairs. It outranges everything he has. Don't try to combo him in the air, because nair can beat out everything diddy kong has.

If you are at high %, just run away and camp him. Try to get the early lead and do as much damage on the next 2 stocks. Luigi only has tornado and fireballs to quickly hit you from far away. Both of which are extremely predictable. I never try to shield grab luigi unless, it's a jab or something. Im too scared of aerial to down b.

be careful when recovering because he can bair your Side b and use the tornado to deploy the barrels. however, when luigi is recovering you can fire his luigi missile (or even spike him at the end of it), use bananas to hit his rising tornado, and always try to hug the edge when you see him up. You can spike him out of the up b, but I almost always hug the stage, because sometimes I miss and luigi would end up edgeguarding me. luigi with either lose a stock or land on the stage, so you can Fair him.

Dekar173 · Jun 19, 2009

yoshididdy said:
Space your fairs. It outranges everything he has. Don't try to combo him in the air, because nair can beat out everything diddy kong has.

His bair trades hits with your fair, and considering you don't have a reliable kill move on him until 140% whereas he has a VERY reliable, VERY fast kill move on you at 90%, as well as combo strings to bring you halfway there, I don't think you want to be trading hits, unless if absolutely necessary.

Everything else you said though, is perfect advice. Play this match-up like a ***** until the enemy folds under pressure

chimpact · Jun 19, 2009

luigi's usually approach facing you, and I didn't know they trade hits. I thought fair beat bair. But Luigi's don't really bair me unless they get a dthrow on me, and even then, I'd be trying to run away and not fair.

GooseMainsDiddy · Jun 19, 2009

You should still abuse fair. Diddy has surprise on his side and it is more beastly than Luigi's bair. Just watch what direction he is facing.

Edit: I have never met a Luigi who approaches with a bair.

chimpact · Jun 19, 2009

i think he was just saying that bair trades hits with fairs, so watch out for that.

Dekar173 · Jun 19, 2009

Any and all good opponents will know how to RAR you (reverse aerial rush,) it's when they're facing forward, but then RIGHT before inputting jump, press backward (whichever direction that may be). The result is, they are running forward, then turn around instantly, and are now facing backwards while in midair.

In other words, fair isn't your "go to move" as it trades hits against a character with devastating KO potential.

Bthrow of DOOM(updated):

Weegee's bthrow sends the opponent at an almost perfect 45 degree angle. From this information, we know exactly how to survive his throw, depending upon our positioning on the stage.

Positions

1. Far edge, being thrown towards the edge (you're on the left, being thrown left)

DI diagonally up, and towards the stage.

2. Far edge, very high percent, being thrown away from the edge (I can survive around 170%) DI horizontally in the direction you are being thrown, then momentum cancel as usual.

3. On top of the very topmost platform on BF (if you're above 147%, you're dead) DO NOT DI, just momentum cancel.

His other throws won't kill you until you're at insane percentages, (well beyond percentages the bthrow kills at,) in other words, his only kill throw is his bthrow.

Player-1 · Jun 19, 2009

yoshididdy said:
Space your fairs. It outranges everything he has. Don't try to combo him in the air, because nair can beat out everything diddy kong has.

If you are at high %, just run away and camp him. Try to get the early lead and do as much damage on the next 2 stocks. Luigi only has tornado and fireballs to quickly hit you from far away. Both of which are extremely predictable. I never try to shield grab luigi unless, it's a jab or something. Im too scared of aerial to down b.

be careful when recovering because he can bair your Side b and use the tornado to deploy the barrels. however, when luigi is recovering you can fire his luigi missile (or even spike him at the end of it), use bananas to hit his rising tornado, and always try to hug the edge when you see him up. You can spike him out of the up b, but I almost always hug the stage, because sometimes I miss and luigi would end up edgeguarding me. luigi with either lose a stock or land on the stage, so you can Fair him.

Actually Uair combos Luigi pretty decently when used with Usmash and Utilts, save this matchup for me, I get back home Monday and can't talk about it too much right now.

Just some quick info:

Usmash is KEY in this matchup, it's probably the most important move you have besides bananas. Always combo Luigi with dash attacks and ftilts when you throw a banana at him unless you're right up in his face when you hit him with it. Fair is good in the matchup, but it's not all everything people are hyping this move up to be in this matchup. Gimp Luigi's recovery with banana plucks when he uses tornado and if you don't have time you can use your Fair to hit his side-b, unless it ends up being a misfire =/. Castle Siege and FD are your best stages, your next best are SV and PS1. When you're in killing range, just stay out of range of his smashes and wait til he trips to approach. It's Diddy's worst matchup IMO 65:35 or 60:40, but it makes things MUCH easier if you know the matchup, after I got ***** by BigLou's Luigi in tournament sets (going 6-0 in sets and 10-0 in games), I went and learned the matchup and recently have beaten him in a set (even though he came back and be me in GF =( ). It's hard to camp Luigi on small stages, and larger stages it can still be difficult. I'll talk more about this matchup once I get back and reasons I think what I think, so save this one for me =).

chimpact · Jun 19, 2009

Dair and nair always beats my up airs. upsmash is really good, I agree. Uptilt is something that I use, but don't abuse.

I up air luigi similarly to how I up air metaknight. Luigi's aerials come out fast and end fast like metaknight's, so i up air in between their moves, like for metaknight after a dair, inbetween a fair and bair and at the end of his tornado.

GooseMainsDiddy · Jun 19, 2009

You can't rar in the air though, which is when you are going to be doing most of your fairing anyways.

EDIT: can you?

Dekar173 · Jun 19, 2009

Good luigis will approach you with bair, and not their other less ranged moves.

Usmash is a good option, but if they predict it and DI against the first/second hits, hello shoryuken.

Luigi's such a beast against Diddy. It's unfair.

ADHD · Jun 19, 2009

Random thing is that luigis up b won't knock you out of your barrels. Meaning if he's forced to recover with his up b you can barrel spike him easily.

GooseMainsDiddy · Jun 19, 2009

If they approach with bair then don't Fair and do something else. Bair is much more easily punished then fair.

Dekar173 · Jun 20, 2009

GooseMainsDiddy said:
If they approach with bair then don't Fair and do something else. Bair is much more easily punished then fair.

Goose you're treating this like an argument when it's meant to be a discussion.

Wall of fair = punishable, easily, meaning don't rely entirely upon it. Mix things up like a good player would do.

The End.

TreK · Jun 20, 2009

My fave matchup, my main vs my main :o

Dekar173 said:
1. if you have a naner in hand, there's an extremely useful trick you can utilize here, airdodge dropping. Airdodge right after hitstun, and RIGHT after the airdodge input, press A (don't press any directions, or you'll throw it that direction).

<3

WITHOUT a naner in hand, it's a bit trickier. He's pretty much guaranteed a utilt or a few aerials, but your best bet is going to be using your DJ (Diddy hump to get away is too slow) and then making it safely back to the ground, through any measures necessary.

Jumping out of a dthrow will only make you get hit by a full hop uair+sweetspot nair plus you'll lose your second jump and get juggled for 10 seconds lol. Mix up your DI, put in aerials, airdodges and jumps and it's ok.

utilt string (low percents):

1. SDI DOWN and shield, you WILL perfect shield it, and can then punish with a grab.

I didn't know this, but if it's true then it's great. You don't get uaired, then you don't get juggled anymore afterwards :o
r8p.

personal strats -> If you don't camp, every time you approach you eat 30% and he eats 10.The thing is, you die 60% earlier than Luigi.
So I camp. And guess what, I'm being camped as soon as luigi is above 100 or 110%. roflbrawl
Since his main approaches are aerial, he can pick up bananas easily, that's why I mostly use them as punishing and zoning tools in this matchup, rather than combo starters/approaches/gtfo-ers
I don't agree with fair being bad in this matchup. Yeah eventually he could approach with his bair, but there's really nothing to be scared of. First, if you are above 25% and hit by a bair, you will NOT get combo'd. He may try to chase you, but it's all up to you to mess up ; no guaranteed 80% combos lol. Second, luigi has to face the opposite direction, so if you see him RARing just stay in your shield or roll and you're safe.

The major threat imo is that if you lose your momentum and get airborne or edgeguarded, you regret it a lot lol ; Luigi is much better than you at this. Thus the danger of getting hit by his utilt, his nair, one of his throws or his tornado. add that to the fact that he lives until 130-140% easily while we die under 100, and voilà you have a bad matchup. 45-55 sounds good imo ; Luigi's not as bad as peach in any way :o

Count · Jun 21, 2009

I don't think this matchup is diddy's worst.

For me personally, peach, snake, and marth are more difficult. Despite the obvious difficulty against luigi, he has a difficult time approaching us and our fair beats just about everything. Def. 6-4 luigi's favor though.

p1, i think part of the reason you think luigi is so hard is that the best or second best luigi in the world is the one you play on a regular basis.

And I've played good luigi players in person. Crash, the mann, grimace, and arty. So what I'm saying isn't without reason.

ADHD · Jun 21, 2009

boss was tougher for me than kos-mos, NEO, pierce7d, and Candy.

Dekar173 · Jun 21, 2009

Luigi is in the top 3 match-ups, easily, if not number 1. If you're not struggling with your opponent as Weegee, then they're not playing as well as they should.

Count · Jun 22, 2009

I never said they weren't in diddy's top three matchups, or that I didn't struggle against luigi.

Its just for me PERSONALLY I do worse against those other characters. Actually read the post, lol.

Dekar173 · Jun 22, 2009

Yes, but you also mentioned fair as a "beat all" move like a few others have before in this thread.

It's not. It trades hits against a character that kills us a LOT faster than we kill him.

Gnes · Jun 22, 2009

ADHD said:
boss was tougher for me than kos-mos, NEO, pierce7d, and Candy.

U dont know the matchup...and that set with Atomsk proved it

I played a luigi this weekend. Fair is a viable camp option. Dekar is right however that it isnt a "beat all" move but it is pretty safe. Hmm...we outrange luigi on the ground and basically are even in the air.

D-tilt/f-tilt stops his grounded tornado and if he does a aerial tornado...just set a naner trap on the ground. If he tries a mid-level tornado fair him out of it.

Personally i think the matchup is 50-50. But im trash.

Dekar173 · Jun 22, 2009

greatness_007 said:
U dont know the matchup...and that set with Atomsk proved it

I played a luigi this weekend. Fair is a viable camp option. Dekar is right however that it isnt a "beat all" move but it is pretty safe. Hmm...we outrange luigi on the ground and basically are even in the air.

D-tilt/f-tilt stops his grounded tornado and if he does a aerial tornado...just set a naner trap on the ground. If he tries a mid-level tornado fair him out of it.

Personally i think the matchup is 50-50. But im trash.

Ya, you are pretty trashy

Going to HOBO 17?? I'm trying to get Broly's crew to go, then we should be housing with them and then ****** some *******s at an MK-banned tourney ;D

What Luigi did you play in TX?? O.O I wanna play him :D

Le_THieN · Jun 22, 2009

I might copy and paste my synopsis of the Luigi match-up over here later, but it's not necessary to bring up right now, and it's in my video thread for the curious.

The only point I want to make is that match-ups that some of us consider "50:50" or "even" (as Keith and I do this one) does not necessarily mean we don't consider it a "struggle." Many of you believe the match-up with Meta Knight to even, and I happen to feel this way about the Marth match-up, but that doesn't either one of them any less of a chore to deal with.

And as far as living against Luigi goes, if you're still dying at 90% or lower, you guys are definitely not DIing his F-smash or B-throw correctly...at all.

ADHD · Jun 22, 2009

Luigi really does kill that low with a fresh fsmash

Le_THieN · Jun 22, 2009

A combination of bad DI and your personal player carelessness. If you know you have bad DI, get into quote-unquote "kill range" and you're getting hit with F-smash every time, then there's something terribly awkward and wrong with this picture.

People with proper knowledge of how these KO moves work and what specific setups go into making them viable in the first place and can completely neutralize the utility of the kill properties on these attacks...simply by avoiding it.

Some of my crew-mates have been getting very savvy with managing my F-smash kill attempts when I use either Kirby or Luigi lately by proxy of the fact that they know it's coming once they hit around 85-100%. If players who actually main these characters narrow their focus and zero in on using their one or two go-to KO attacks once you reach certain percentages, how is it problematic for you to simply just run away and force them to accrue extra damage for being so obvious with it?

TreK · Jun 22, 2009

yeah, if you're above 70% against a luigi, consider yourself in death percents, and react accordingly (camp, punish approaches, all that stuff)
maybe 80% because diddy cannot be shoryukenned, but it's still low, and luigi has one of the bests momentum cancel strats in the game so don't expect to kill him until 120/130%

That may be why people seem to find this matchup hard... I don't care really, but all the luigis I know are edgeguardable. Those of boss's caliber... It's another story lol

ADHD · Jun 22, 2009

Le_THieN said:
A combination of bad DI and your personal player carelessness. If you know you have bad DI, get into quote-unquote "kill range" and you're getting hit with F-smash every time, then there's something terribly awkward and wrong with this picture.

People with proper knowledge of how these KO moves work and what specific setups go into making them viable in the first place and can completely neutralize the utility of the kill properties on these attacks...simply by avoiding it.

Some of my crew-mates have been getting very savvy with managing my F-smash kill attempts when I use either Kirby or Luigi lately by proxy of the fact that they know it's coming once they hit around 85-100%. If players who actually main these characters narrow their focus and zero in on using their one or two go-to KO attacks once you reach certain percentages, how is it problematic for you to simply just run away and force them to accrue extra damage for being so obvious with it?

Because it's ****ing fast as hell lol. gnes, NO WAY is luigi 50-50

Le_THieN · Jun 22, 2009

LOL. The fight is on!

thumbswayup · Jun 22, 2009

You have got to be kidding me. How many times have I told you people Luigi is Diddy's absolute worst matchup. Le Thien I'm sorry, but you're dead wrong about his fmash. I've been killed by that at 79% while DIing, maybe not M2k perfect DI, but I'll put $50 that you won't survive an upwards tilted fsmash at 90% ANYWHERE on the stage. It's a broken move. I've seen Boss kill Snakes with it around 100% ****ING SNAKES LIKE CHILLIN CANDY AND G-REG WHO DO DI dear god. You're on crack if you think the matchup is 50-50. The luigis you guys fight are serious trash if they don't give you trouble. Play Boss while he's trying and see what happens. I promise you'll want to quit Diddy forever afterwards.

Gnes · Jun 22, 2009

Dekar i played a luigi at FS6(San Antonio tourney). The funny part he played me in diddy dittos first where i jv 3 stocked him then he cps me with luigi. O.o

His f-smash doesnt kill that fast unless ur DI-ing up...WHICH IS WHAT U SHOULDNT DO. Somebody still hasn't explained why if we outrange the chr. in what degree of foolishness can that chr. be a "worst matchup"

Why is everybody complaining about f-smash. Just dont get hit by it...its range isn't that good. I dont get it.

thumbswayup · Jun 22, 2009

Boss gets it to hit. I really don't know how he does it.

Player-1 · Jun 22, 2009

that you won't survive an upwards tilted fsmash at 90% ANYWHERE on the stage

I survived it at high 80's/low 90's on Castle Siege, on the 2nd transformation where the ceilings are a bit higher.

BTW I'm back.

thumbswayup · Jun 22, 2009

Player-1 said:
I survived it at high 80's/low 90's on Castle Siege, on the 2nd transformation where the ceilings are a bit higher.

BTW I'm back.

lol I was referring to the neutrals but ok. Was it fresh? Was it tilted up?

Player-1 · Jun 22, 2009

thumbswayup said:
lol I was referring to the neutrals but ok. Was it fresh? Was it tilted up?

IDK if it was fresh, I don't keep track of that kind of stuff for the other player, but it was tilted up, and it's still probably possible to DI it at 90%

thumbswayup · Jun 22, 2009

Player-1 said:
IDK if it was fresh, I don't keep track of that kind of stuff for the other player, but it was tilted up, and it's still probably possible to DI it at 90%

I assure you, on neutrals when it's fresh, you cannot survive it at 90% no matter where you are on the stage. Test it out. I hate Luigi.

Le_THieN · Jun 22, 2009

thumbswayup said:
You have got to be kidding me. How many times have I told you people Luigi is Diddy's absolute worst matchup. Le Thien I'm sorry, but you're dead wrong about his fmash.

Glad you have the final say on who is Diddy's worst match-up.

Also, you have bad DI; I just tested it, and you can survive his F-smash at 90% on all neutrals, depending on stage position and how you DI.

Again - you have bad DI.

Dekar173 · Jun 22, 2009

thumbswayup said:
I assure you, on neutrals when it's fresh, you cannot survive it at 90% no matter where you are on the stage. Test it out. I hate Luigi.

You can survive on the far edge of FD if they send you to the opposite edge (never going to happen?!?!)

Ya Luigi's KO power makes him a real dewsh to fight. But I love fighting him and proving my worth ;D

Dash attack > drop naner off ledge

Really good when Weegee decides he's so badass he can recover from below the stage, then he learns he's in fact, your ***** and therefore will recover on your terms, or not at all :D

thumbswayup · Jun 22, 2009

Le_THieN said:
Glad you have the final say on who is Diddy's worst match-up.

Also, you have bad DI; I just tested it, and you can survive his F-smash at 90% on all neutrals, depending on stage position and how you DI.

Again - you have bad DI.

I'm not saying I have the final say, I'm stating the facts. Once you've played Boss and beat him then you can come back and tell me otherwise.

And how exactly are you DIing? I find it extraordinarily hard to believe you survived a fresh up tilted fsmash at 90% on any of the neutrals.

edit- I do hope you realize we're talking 90% before the hit right -_-

LuigiKing · Jun 22, 2009

Why don't you guys ask us what we think?

*waits*

Diddy Kong's Barrels of Matchups~ Character #3~ Luigi

Smash Hero

Justice Man

Smash Lord

Justice Man

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

Justice Man

Smash Legend

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Justice Man

Smash Hero

Smash Ace

Justice Man

Is "that guy"

Smash Champion

Smash Hero

Justice Man

Smash Champion

Justice Man

Smash Master

Justice Man

Smash Lord

Smash Hero

Smash Lord

Is "that guy"

Smash Hero

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Smash Master

Smash Master

Smash Legend

Smash Master

Smash Legend

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Justice Man

Smash Master

Smash Lord

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