Sheikah Survival Guide: A Sheik Match-up Thread

A1lion835 · Jun 15, 2009

<3 said:
All that said no sheik should be getting swallowed unless they already couldn't recover. Just sayin'

If we inhale you onstage, we wait a few seconds, jump off the stage and let you brake out, which guarantees a footstool on you. Footstool guarantees a dair->footstool on any character (fromundaman was, in fact, the one who discovered that). If you're saying you should never be in a situation where we can inhale you, o_o

stealth3654 · Jun 15, 2009

I haven't faced many Kirby players, so how often do you guys usually inhale someone next to the ledge during a match?

fromundaman · Jun 16, 2009

Depends. Usually once to twice a game for me, but then again, I haven't played many good Shiek mains, and no Shiek I've played has known about it.

<π · Jun 16, 2009

I've played strong kirbies in my area. Retro, xYz, More notably Sheer Madness all with my sheik I've never been inhaled because it's something I'm always weatching out for. Especially off stage when attempting to edge guard or recover.
Thanks to inhales huge start up time it very easy to read and avoid even off stage with more limited options.

Getting mind gamed into an inhale on stage isn't a huge issue kirbies move speed is laughable and you can mash out almost instantly at even kill percents.

saviorslegacy · Jun 16, 2009

<3 said:
I've played strong kirbies in my area. Retro, xYz, More notably Sheer Madness all with my sheik I've never been inhaled because it's something I'm always weatching out for. Especially off stage when attempting to edge guard or recover.
Thanks to inhales huge start up time it very easy to read and avoid even off stage with more limited options.

Getting mind gamed into an inhale on stage isn't a huge issue kirbies move speed is laughable and you can mash out almost instantly at even kill percents.

I also fight Kirbies, and what <3 said is true. You basically don't get sucked.... or blowed (no offense guys).

To win this you just gotta break Kirb's Bair.....
Everything he has is easy to get around if you know how to do it. His Bair, however, is like impossible to get around......

<π · Jun 16, 2009

not impossible just hard, lol. pivot grabs are a neat way to get around it. and punishing wiffed bairs with dash attack and dash grabs a kinda cool... but it puts you bake in the same position kirby's bair is so hard to beat.

stealth3654 · Jun 16, 2009

Can you crawl under it? XD

saviorslegacy · Jun 16, 2009

stealth3654 said:
Can you crawl under it? XD

I want to say "no".

fromundaman · Jun 16, 2009

stealth3654 said:
Can you crawl under it? XD

Not if we FF it.

Also, as I have previously stated, I don't have great Sheik experience. That being said, I'm hearing 2-3 of you guys will be at MWC (sure, of varying skills, but the same can be said of the Kirbies attending this event), so I'd love to play some of you guys there and get a better idea of this matchup.

That being said, maybe I'm completely wrong.

stealth3654 · Jun 17, 2009

What stages are good to CP against Kirby and what stages should be banned?

Zankoku · Jun 17, 2009

I would ban Brinstar. I don't know what I'd CP, though.

choknater · Jun 17, 2009

kirby is great on any stage

i would just CP neutrals

like FD or smashville so u can really utilize ur needles

stealth3654 · Jun 17, 2009

Wouldn't Brinstar's lava/acid help you not get gimped so easily?

fromundaman · Jun 17, 2009

Kirby kills easily on brinstar, and has numerous exploits. However, it would help you with the gimp aspect and allow you to kill earlier, so up to you.

That being said, Kirby has a lot of good stages and no really bad stages.
I'd suggest banning either RC, PTAD, JJ, PS1, PS2, Brinstar, or Pictochat, depending on which Kirby you're facing and what is legal at that tourny.

choknater · Jun 17, 2009

i wouldnt bother banning PS1 or rainbow, sheik can still adapt really well on those stages

what kirby likes is air space, and sheik likes flat ground

so if the matchup is already kirby's advantage, at least picking fd or smashville would help out sheik's situation

rainbow is fine cuz sheik is mobile enough to still use that stage VERY well, i play it the same as i play sheik in melee

juts use her speed to maximum potential

fromundaman · Jun 17, 2009

Well, Kirby has a LOT of exploits or generally gets screwed less/performs better than most on the stages I mentioned. Especially PS1, PTAD and Pictochat IMO.

choknater · Jun 17, 2009

haha, it would sound so funny in tournament to ban port town

kirby player: "what do u ban?"

me: "Port Town Aero Drive"

kirby: "LOL dang i never thought of that"

since i usually dont ban stages i think imma start banning that stage for lulz

<π · Jun 17, 2009

I'm still mad everyone bans port town... that stage is awesome.

stealth3654 · Jun 17, 2009

Why is Kirby good on PictoChat? Besides the down B glitch.

I really like Port town. My state is taking a CP poll right now, so hopefully it will be legal.

fromundaman · Jun 17, 2009

choknater said:
haha, it would sound so funny in tournament to ban port town

kirby player: "what do u ban?"

me: "Port Town Aero Drive"

kirby: "LOL dang i never thought of that"

since i usually dont ban stages i think imma start banning that stage for lulz

If you ever face me in a tourny that allows it, the reverse scenario is more likely. Especially since we have a pretty good chance of a instant kill as Kirby once per time around the track.

<3 said:
I'm still mad everyone bans port town... that stage is awesome.

Agreed!

Lack of edges + predictable, though strong hazards + character specific exploits = Kirby ****!

stealth3654 · Jun 18, 2009

Ok, we are moving right along to our next character: Pit!

Discuss!!!

Zankoku · Jun 19, 2009

Pit is such an underused character.

You can ftilt lock him. You can run fast. You can shield from your dash relatively quickly. You can edgeguard. I don't see how this matchup could even be argued against Sheik's favor.

Anyway, Pit's arrows can easily be shielded, but they still prove a nuisance and give him initiative if he reads your movement well enough. Your options are to run in with shield, walk in with shield, jump over the arrows, or disrupt with needles (only if you started first; trading needles for arrows is a losing trade for you).

His greatest asset will be his clear advantage with disjointed hitboxes - you are never going to beat his uair, his fair and bair have a bit of startup but outrange most of your options, and the only way you can challenge his nair is with a maximum range fair (it has a bit of an invisible disjoint). His aerial mobility isn't as strong as G&W's or Marth's, but it still lets him play a relatively safe zoning game with them as long as he keeps you locked in shieldstun. If for some reason he lands right in front of you though, go ahead and punish from shield.

As I mentioned above, Sheik can ftilt lock Pit. However, ftilting shield is risky because of the speed and range of his fsmash. If you connect with a shield, instead of ftilting again, jab cancel to cover any poke attempts. In terms of killing, Pit is a medium-weight and has mediocre vertical momentum canceling.

Pit has too many options in the air for you to effectively juggle him from dthrow setups, so just run fthrow/bthrow and punish improper DI as appropriate.

Pit's Wings of Icarus is a horribly vulnerable recovery and is typically only used as a last resort, since getting hit out of it means he can't use it again until grabbing a ledge or landing somewhere. If he uses his Up+B stupidly, you have all sorts of punishment options available with needles, chain, and aerials. Don't count on this happening against any decent level Pits, though.

Don't spotdodge or roll into Pit. It can only lead to bad news.

saviorslegacy · Jun 19, 2009

IDK much about fighting Pit. I Brawl Admiral Pit/Bowser some times but there really isn't much to say.
I did however use to main Pit so I can tell you his weakness's and strengths.

*pros*
When Pit is arrow looping throw a needle into him in hopes that he mess's up.

NEVER GET ABOVE PIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I cannot stress this enough. If you are above him get back onto the stage ASAP. Don't try and hit him when you are coming down just GET DOWN!

Be aware of his looping arrows and know that he can use them to get out of your combo's.

He has a CG which lines up for dash attack which lines up for u-tilt which lines up BEING ABOVE HIM! The easy thing to do is eat arrows so you don't get grabbed. In other words.. fight at long range with needle's.

He has two reflectors, so be careful when throwing Needle's.

Dair is deceiving... it hits you ABOVE HIM.

He can space with WOI (Wings Of Ikarus) and use it like a WD.

He has a glide so don't expect to gimp him to much. A good Pit will use his two jumps (save the third one) and a glide waaaaaay before he use's WOI.

FSmash has two hits and is very quick. In other words you get in close prepare for this barrage of FSmash.

Shield turns you around and he will follow up with a Light Arrow.

USmash has three hit box's. If he performs this DI to the opposite of where he is traveling.

His Nair, Jab and Uair is multi hit. Just another reason to stay out from under him (reffering to Uair).

*pros*
You can knock Pit out of Angel Ring by using chain.

You out speed him in the air and he lacks a low frame move (except maybe Bair... so avoid being behind him lol).

You out speed him on the ground. Just don't give him much lee way.

You, uhhhh... don't have much more. <,< (So why did I stop maining this dude?)

Just combo him, don't get above him and be aware of arrows. Do that and you'll be fine.
I say this match up is 60/40 Pit.

Zankoku · Jun 19, 2009

Wow, seriously? Half of the stuff you wrote is stuff like "you can't do anything about it" which you easily can, except that you're basing it off of Wifi, where punishment from reaction is impossible.

saviorslegacy · Jun 19, 2009

Ankoku said:
Wow, seriously? Half of the stuff you wrote is stuff like "you can't do anything about it" which you easily can, except that you're basing it off of Wifi, where punishment from reaction is impossible.

I didn't say "you can't do anything about it". I just simply listed his strengths and any Pit main would probally agree.

BTW.. I play more offline then I do online. I know like 5 people IRL who play and one of them was even here yesterday. I hate wi-fi now cuz Sheik can't perform well.

Zankoku · Jun 19, 2009

Can I instead say you do dumb things, then? I mean, there's no way abusing Pit's fsmash should ever give you more trouble than Pit if you know how to shield. You shouldn't be getting chaingrabbed. Running dash attack from a neutral situation is usually pretty dumb against any defensively played character, I don't know why you would ever be caught dash attacking into Pit's shield, Down+B or otherwise. As for like three or four other things, stop falling for dumb gimmicks that you should easily be able to adjust to if only you would watch what your opponent is actually doing.

saviorslegacy · Jun 19, 2009

Ankoku said:
Can I instead say you do dumb things, then? I mean, there's no way abusing Pit's fsmash should ever give you more trouble than Pit if you know how to shield. You shouldn't be getting chaingrabbed. Running dash attack from a neutral situation is usually pretty dumb against any defensively played character, I don't know why you would ever be caught dash attacking into Pit's shield, Down+B or otherwise. As for like three or four other things, stop falling for dumb gimmicks that you should easily be able to adjust to if only you would watch what your opponent is actually doing.

#1 If FSmash hits your shield he can use another FSmash I believe. (I think it provides enough hit stun.) What I meant was "if you hit a Pit performing FSmash you will get punished by a FSmash cuz it has like no start up lag".

#2 Why shouldn't you get CG'd?

#3 I never said you chould dast attack. I rarely use Dash Attack unless I use it after a Fair for a combo.

#4 Any attack turns you around if you hit shield. Including Chain.

#5 I didn't fall for anything dumb......

#6 How many Pits do you fight/have you ever used Pit?

Why you gotta go all crazy on stuff I didn't say?

Zankoku · Jun 19, 2009

saviorslegacy said:
#1 If FSmash hits your shield he can use another FSmash I believe. (I think it provides enough hit stun.) What I meant was "if you hit a Pit performing FSmash you will get punished by a FSmash cuz it has like no start up lag".

This is either you being bad or just Wifi bull****. There isn't a single attack that has enough shieldstun that you can't do anything about. Pit's fsmash isn't even close.

saviorslegacy said:
#2 Why shouldn't you get CG'd?

Because it only works at low %'s, and if Pit's consistently grabbing you at a low % then you're seriously doing something wrong.

saviorslegacy said:
#4 Any attack turns you around if you hit shield. Including Chain.

Have you ever considered not being ridiculously straightforward about your approaches?

saviorslegacy said:
#5 I didn't fall for anything dumb......

Good, then half the stuff you listed that Pit can do is null and void.

saviorslegacy said:
#6 How many Pits do you fight/have you ever used Pit?

Four and counting.

saviorslegacy said:
Why you gotta go all crazy on stuff I didn't say?

Why you gotta play so dumb?

Steel · Jun 20, 2009

saviorslegacy said:
#1 If FSmash hits your shield he can use another FSmash I believe. (I think it provides enough hit stun.) What I meant was "if you hit a Pit performing FSmash you will get punished by a FSmash cuz it has like no start up lag".

>_____________________________________>

saviorslegacy · Jun 20, 2009

Ankoku said:
This is either you being bad or just Wifi bull****. There isn't a single attack that has enough shieldstun that you can't do anything about. Pit's fsmash isn't even close.

Because it only works at low %'s, and if Pit's consistently grabbing you at a low % then you're seriously doing something wrong.

Have you ever considered not being ridiculously straightforward about your approaches?

Good, then half the stuff you listed that Pit can do is null and void.

Four and counting.

Why you gotta play so dumb?

#1 I was unsure if it provided enough hit stun. (I thought Wolf could shield pressure with Bair like Falco could in Melee with Shine> Dair repeat.)
Since you have fought Pits I want you to attack them while they are Smashing over on the c-stick. Unless you true combo something you are gonna get hit.

#2 What was that for? Chain isn't an approach. What did I do to make you say that? I approach with Fair/Bair.

#3 no

#4 K then you should understand some of what I am saying.

#5 why you such a douche bag?

Zankoku · Jun 20, 2009

Hey, I said I'd leave you alone 'cause the stuff I disagreed with that you said didn't really hurt anyone. But start saying things about matchups that are outright wrong and ****'s gotta go down.

Like, seriously. You are close to Pit. He clearly wants to fsmash. Maybe, just maybe, if you had any basic sense of how to avoid getting damanged and punish things you predict, you'd shield his fsmash and ftilt him out of shield because it's got a very noticeable amount of cooldown? This isn't some hocus pocus high-startup-low-cooldown Lucario fsmash here, it's a two-hit perfectly punishable-from-shield fsmash. If you really can't think of doing anything about Pit hitting your shield with an fsmash then I'm really not gonna bother with you any more.

Steel · Jun 20, 2009

why r u so *****

saviorslegacy · Jun 20, 2009

Ankoku said:
Hey, I said I'd leave you alone 'cause the stuff I disagreed with that you said didn't really hurt anyone. But start saying things about matchups that are outright wrong and ****'s gotta go down.

Like, seriously. You are close to Pit. He clearly wants to fsmash. Maybe, just maybe, if you had any basic sense of how to avoid getting damanged and punish things you predict, you'd shield his fsmash and ftilt him out of shield because it's got a very noticeable amount of cooldown? This isn't some hocus pocus high-startup-low-cooldown Lucario fsmash here, it's a two-hit perfectly punishable-from-shield fsmash. If you really can't think of doing anything about Pit hitting your shield with an fsmash then I'm really not gonna bother with you any more.

We will wait for the Pit mains to decide who's wrong.

lol @ saying it doesn't have low cool down
I know how to punish <,<

Steel2nd said:
why r u so *****

five letter cus word?

<π · Jun 20, 2009

I actually have it on and off... There is a pit I beat easy down here with sheik and one that gives me a very hard time... But I think I'm just being way too agressive and straightforward with that match up.

While arrows overall are easy to avoid and dodge at medium and long range lets face it you aren't punishing them. Pits who mix up firing speeds are not going to be easy to approach through. Once you do you get to kirby syndrom with nair fair and the big one bair. which sheik just can't really hit through easily. you also have pits ground game... jabs out range and out priorities you pit can use these as a spacing tool that will beat even a lot of your aerial approaches.

I don't know... yeah if you hit him and follow up you can build a lot of damage but a very defensive pit is going to be hard to get to in my experince.

saviorslegacy · Jun 20, 2009

Just fyi.

Pits FSmash comes out at frame 6, has 2 hits and ends on frame 15. If you are able to perfect shield two hits like that (lol) and you don't takes into consideration how far back the hit knocks you back and that you have no shield stun then you could counter with f-tilt.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=238198

good day

Zankoku · Jun 20, 2009

I decided that this post isn't worth the trouble.

FrozenFire13 · Jun 21, 2009

So.....what do we think the match up is then? Or are we still "debating"?

saviorslegacy · Jun 21, 2009

FrozenFire13 said:
So.....what do we think the match up is then? Or are we still "arguing"?

*edited for truth....

Zankoku · Jun 21, 2009

FrozenFire13 said:
So.....what do we think the match up is then? Or are we still "debating"?

I'd go ahead and say it's heavily in Pit's favor. There's no way we can beat a character that has an attack that hits on frames 6 and 24 and ends on frame 15. It's not even possible.

Icyo · Jun 21, 2009

So...30:70?

Sheikah Survival Guide: A Sheik Match-up Thread

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